A Journey of Faith and Food with Andrew Camp | Episode 183

[0:00] Music.
[0:35] Hello, and welcome to Church in Maine. This is a podcast for people who are interested in where faith and our modern world intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Church in Maine is a podcast that is always looking for where God is at work among all of the issues that are affecting the church and the larger world. You can learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes, or donate at two places. You can look at churchinmaine.org, or you can go to at churchinmaine.substack.com. At our Substack site, I also have articles that I've written. You can subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app, and I also hope that you would leave a review. That helps others to find this podcast.
[1:22] So, if you read the Gospels, you'll notice something about Jesus. He liked to eat. Maybe that's in keeping with the fact that he was not only fully divine, but fully human. But he seemed to like to meet people and then take them out to dinner.
[1:41] So, so much of Christ's ministry on earth seemed to take place with food present. And this week, we look at the crossroads between food and faith with my guest, Andrew Camp. Camp is both a former pastor and a former sous chef, interested in the connection between food and faith. And you can see those connections happening on his own podcast, which is called The Biggest Table. And today, we talk about his road to both the ministry and the kitchen. So, please join me in this fascinating and wonderful conversation with Andrew Camp.
[2:22] Music.
[2:58] Well, thank you so much for joining me today. And I'm kind of excited to talk about this connection between food and faith. So, yeah, thank you for coming on the podcast. No, thank you for inviting me. It's great to connect and, yeah, just have a great conversation. Well, I think the best place to start is knowing a little bit about you, where you grew up and kind of what led you to this, where you are. And what was the role since you were trained as a chef? What was the role of food in your life growing up? No. Yeah, I grew up in Orange County, California. We moved there in 85.
[3:42] And my parents still live in the same house. And so it's cool to take our kids now there. But food or the table played a really important role. My parents thought it was vital that we as a family have not only dinner together every night, but breakfast together. Wow. Yeah. Like, so we, every morning we would have breakfast, sit down for breakfast together. And then every evening, okay, you know, most evenings would sit down and have dinner together as a family. And yeah, like it was just a place that was stable for us, you know, don't remember lively conversations. We weren't a conversing family per se all the time, but there was something about the stability of the table that was important to me and to our family growing up. And I was fortunate my mom was a stay-at-home mom my dad's office was only two miles from the house you know and so it was it made it.
[4:48] Easier like maybe or you know there were less obstacles um to do that um you know and my mom loved baking bread and so she always made homemade bread so like that smell of bread, growing up was you know something very near and dear like there's nothing like a fresh baked slice of bread from the oven um you know but what's funny too is like we would bemoan you know homemade bread growing up just as like you know we would go visit my nana and grandpa in St. Louis, my mom's parents, and they would always have Wonder Bread. And we thought it was the best thing because it was so soft and like just nothing, right? You know, whereas homemade bread, it goes stale quicker, but, you know, and it's heartier bread.
[5:33] And so, yeah, I laugh about that now thinking, you know, how much I didn't know what I had, you know?
[5:40] And so, yeah, food was always this place for us growing up, you know? And so, when I moved, began to, you know, get out on my own as an adult, food played an important role, you know, and after graduating from undergrad, I actually lived in China for three years, and this is really where food became more central to who I am, but as I was sitting around with other missionaries in China, I would realize, like, we lingered at the table, and so this question popped into my head of, like, why? Like, why do do we linger at a table like what is it about the table that causes us to stay even when a sofa is literally two feet away and is way more comfortable like i've never found a dining room chair that i'm like you know what i can't wait to spend hours here but like we stay at the table um and so it was sort of that question that began to lead me down this path of like okay what is it about food and the table that brings people together and causes us to stay.
[6:47] So, yeah, that's sort of how it all began. And then it just, you know, one thing led to another, you know, and you just, you know, just discerning, okay, what is this role and what do I do and how do I do it? And yeah, that's sort of the genesis of it all.
[7:04] You know, it's interesting you bring up with the time in China, because I spent some time, it was during seminary, and it was kind of a cross-cultural trip.
[7:17] And one of the things that I found interesting there, well, there are two things. One was their breakfast patterns were so different. It's a lot more noodles, more salty, which is very different from our kind of North American diets. And then the other thing is that we were in southwestern China and in a city called Kunming. That's where I lived. No way. Oh, my goodness. That is awesome. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's where we were. And it was kind of the base. And then we would go out into the mountains to visit some of the villages. And I think the thing that was fascinating there was that when we would visit these small villages is that they would always have a dinner for us. And, you know, and this was a big thing because, you know, these were not rich people.
[8:15] And, you know, lots of pork and lots of rice. But it was just fascinating that kind of sense of contact that this is what they did for the visitors. Yeah. Um, and, and that was important that we kind of gather at the table with them. One is, I forget the exact phrase, but you know, the translation for hello in China, Chinese is like, have you eaten yet? Oh, like, you know, and so it's sort of, uh, you know, part of the greeting it, you know, everyday greeting is, you know, um, I think it's like, um, which is sort of like, Hey, have you, hello, you know, how are you doing? Have you eaten? And so this idea of sustenance, you know, was, yeah, huge in China.
[9:02] So I'm kind of curious, when were you in China? I was there from about 2003 to 2006. Okay. And when I was there, I was there in 99. Okay.
[9:13] Not too far in time no yeah coon means a fascinating it was a fascinating town back then yeah it would be interesting to see how much has changed um yeah in those those years yep.
[9:26] So i'm also getting you know obviously you had that kind of food background but then where did um what is your kind of faith background and um because i also know that you you are or a former pastor. So where did that come in? No, um, you know, my parents were, are strong believers. Um, you know, they, they came to know Christ both really intimately in college through the navigators, um, college ministry. And so, um, and then, you know, did some work for the navigators post-college and that's how they met in Chicago, they met in Chicago of all places, is neither being from chicago so um so yeah faith was always you know um huge you know in our lives and um grew up at the church you know in a strong evangelical church it was actually chuck swindoll's church i grew up in you know and um but he left when i was like 10 so like chuck to me was really boring and like like i don't want to go listen to chuck like why do i have to sit through boring Chuck, you know, which again, it's something you laugh about now because you listen to him and you're like, okay, he is a gifted preacher and orator. But so yeah, church was always a place, an important place, you know, and faith journey has been an interesting place for me in high school.
[10:48] Christian apologetics became really important to me just because I'm much more.
[10:53] More lean towards the academic side, you know, and I'm a nerd, you know, my wife has helped me embrace that nerdiness side of me. But apologetics really helped me see how I can love Jesus with my mind and not just, you know, because growing up in high school youth group, you know, these emotional worship experiences, I'm like, it's just... I can never conjure it up or, you know, it's like, it just never resonated well with me. And so I was like, is there something wrong with me? Like, is like, am I missing something?
[11:22] And so, you know, this idea of the mind became important and led me through weird circumstances. I went to Biola University. It's a small Christian college in Southern California and was became, thought I was going to be a doctor, you know, all through high school. But, you know, the first two weeks in biology at Biola, I was like falling asleep and had no interest to do work. And I'm like, okay, this isn't, this isn't boding well, like maybe it's time to rethink my career aspirations and switch to become a Bible major. And just, I remember walking to the admin offices at Biola the day I dropped biology. And there was just this sense of freedom I was experiencing, you know, and it just, you know, it's.
[12:08] I can't express it, you know, you can't like pinpoint, okay, what exactly, but it was a sense of, okay, maybe why I'm, you know, at Biola was very different than what I originally thought, you know, and so, yeah, so became a Bible major, you know, thinking ministry, wasn't sure what it was going to be. But the Lord led me to China. And then after China, I was like, okay, I need more education. I wanted to do seminary. But again, knowing that I veered towards the academic, I was like, okay, I want seminary to be more than academic. I don't need to be challenged there. What I need to be challenged in is my heart. And how do I integrate the mind and the heart? And Eugene Peterson was huge for me of reading him and just seeing a man who loved Jesus deeply with his mind, but also loved Jesus deeply from his heart. And I'm like, okay, how do I do that? How do I become... Eugene, you know, more so. And I'm not ever going to be Eugene because I'm never going to translate all of scripture and be friends with Bono. But that led me back to Talbot, which is Biola's seminary, and they have a program in spiritual formation, which was, again, it was, okay, how do I get to know myself?
[13:27] You know, and that was really hard just because, you know, a lot of it wasn't just this kumbaya, like sitting around a fire, but it was really like, okay, what are your sin patterns, you know, and what prevents you from loving Jesus even more so than what helps you love Jesus? Because, you know, they thought, okay, we need to get to the root of who we are in our hearts, you know, and deal with family patterns, deal with sin patterns, you know, And so you're just dealing with, you're sitting with your stuff in a lot of ways. But it was through that and discovering myself that really helped me lean into the culinary side even more of like, okay, this is who God is creating me to be. I have this deep passion. How do I embrace it? And so it was at seminary that I actually decided to enroll in culinary school. And so I was doing seminary, working part-time, and doing culinary school. School, like, you know, like I was single at the time. Like I was, you know, you're like, okay. Cause it became more of a question of if not now, when, like, why, why wait? Like, why not embrace this and fully enter into it? And so like, you know, culinary school became this next step of me saying, okay, yes to, okay. Who is Jesus created me to be? And how do I say yes to that.
[14:47] So it sounds kind of like cooking was a way of expressing your faith through
[14:54] your heart or it was a heart way of expressing your faith. Yeah. Yeah. And early on it, I don't know if I connected it to faith as much, but it was more of like getting in touch with this creative, you know, passion side and, you know, cause cooking is very technical, right like you know and you do need to follow like there are rules right like um but at the same time it's also a very passionate experience too of you know you're in with ingredients and you know there's sights there's sounds like it's very bodily like you can't live in your head and cook because you can't then you're not experiencing anything um and so yeah i think it helps it was a bodily expression and just a creative outlet of, you know, this person I am.
[15:47] So, I know that you ended up as a sous chef. Right. And so, what was that road? You started in culinary school. And then, so how did you end up on that kind of road towards becoming a sous chef? Yeah, it was never straight. I feel like some people have that story where they went to Bible school, became a pastor, after and, you know, 40 years later, they're, you know, my path has been sort of more winding, excuse me, you know, and meandering. But, you know, when my wife and I got married, she was finishing her doctorate in clinical psychology from Azusa Pacific. And so the last year of the program is this nationwide internship matching program. And we're like, both of us were like, let's get out of Southern California. And neither of us really liked it. You know, know we're like we're more outdoors nature people and the concrete jungle of southern california was.
[16:46] Just not appealing plus it's like can we really afford to stay like um long term you know and maybe but you know i just didn't feel um where we wanted to stay and so i told her i was like apply anywhere as long as there's a some sort of food culture you know and at the time i was like Like I could do fine dining, but I, you know, I'm open to doing regional, like if it's South Southern US, like, and there's good barbecue, like I'd love to learn how to do good barbecue, soul food, like whatever, like, you know, I don't think there's one way, you know, and wanted to just embrace different aspects. And so she found a program she really liked in Evanston, Wyoming, which is just across the border in with Utah near Park City, Utah. And so I was like, okay, Park City is a resort town. There's good restaurants. This could work and so that's where she got matched you know um and so i started looking for jobs in park city um we were going to live in evanston and i was going to commute to park city but thankfully the lord closed that door and we found a place in park near park city um just because evanston again you know could we have made it anywhere god called us to probably but like.
[18:00] Park city just provided more i think opportunities um and so found a job it wasn't my first choice but found a job at silver restaurant and a fine dining restaurant on main street in park city and, sort of started out as a green cook you know and had done had been working at a christian camp and so hadn't so had experienced cooking but not on the line cooking which you know banquet cooking versus line cooking is very different um you know and so we just started out there and they weren't sure if i was gonna make it um just again you know it's it's fast paced it's challenging it's hot um but slowly just worked through perseverance and just worked my way up from you know novice line cook to to becoming sous chef where i was helping run the kitchen and helping run the team, and organizing, and, you know, it's, the kitchen life is exhausting, and it wasn't something I wanted to do long-term, you know, because you're working every opportunity other people have to connect,
[19:05] and so it just wasn't the life my wife and I wanted, but.
[19:09] The times in the restaurant were, they're fun, like, you know, the service, you know, when you get in the weeds, and you rally the troops, you rally your team to come together, and get organized, and just start knocking things off like it's a team sport you know and so when you play a team sport like that adrenaline that joy um was just a lot of fun to do and then you just had the opportunity to be creative like there were times where you're like oh we need to we have like this touring group that's just coming in for a bite like we need to create something real quick and so you just start pulling ingredients and being like okay what can i do you know real quick to make a dish for 10 people and that's sort of a bite and, um, it just was fun or, you know, you're just trying different things and, um, yeah, it just was a place to, to have fun and experiment, but also work long hours and really hard.
[20:04] So one of the things I've found interesting is that you, because you went from Park City and now you're in Flagstaff, Arizona.
[20:13] So that's kind of a, it's not Phoenix. So, you know, that's, and I think that's important too. I have not been to Arizona, but I do know that there are different regions of Arizona. So it's not all desert. Nope. But what led you to end up in Flagstaff? And I mean, also kind of curious, what is the food culture in Flagstaff? Yeah. So I was working at a church in Park City that we had attended right when we moved there and came on staff in 2016 at that church, you know, and sort of was realizing the time was wearing down in Park City. Like, we're not sure if this is where we want to stay to live and raise our girls. We have two girls who are now five and seven, and we couldn't afford to live in Park City. So, like, we were living outside of Park City, but both my wife and I were working in Park City. And there's something I, you know, I think being a pastor, you should be in the community you're serving. And but, you know, when the median home price is $2.1 million in Park City, like, you just can't. yeah, right. Like, you know, do that. And so, you know, you're commuting a half hour both ways, you know, um, you know, and so you're just trying to figure it out. Like what is, where do we want to go? And, you know, it was also realizing, I think the leadership I could bring to the church wasn't what the church needed or wanted at that point. And so I just began looking.
[21:42] And came across a job in Flagstaff. And I remember telling my wife, I was like, hey, there's Claire's her name and told Claire, I was like, hey, there's a job in Flagstaff, Arizona that I think is interesting. And she's like, hey, remember, we said we're not moving to Arizona. And again, she said, she, you know, both of us equate Arizona with Phoenix and desert in, you know, temperatures as hot as hell, right? Like, you know, like, I don't want to spend my summers in 110 degrees, you know, where the kids can't go outside. And, but I was like, no no like i looked up pictures like here look at these pictures like you know and she's like okay like because flagstaff's at 7 000 feet elevation we're in the hugest ponderosa pine forest i think in the nation um so you're just there's green everywhere um you know in park city was about 7 000 feet too so like the altitude the climate would be was pretty similar and i was like we're close to sedona which is the beautiful red rocks plus you know you're only an hour and a half from the Grand Canyon, you know, and we love to be outside and hike. And so we're like, okay.
[22:45] And so, yeah, there was a church and they said yes, after a week of being here for interviews and just exploring the place. And we thought, you know, after going back and, you know, praying and spending time, like we felt like this was where the Lord was calling us to minister to and come to and felt confident about that. And the Lord, you know, this is 21, summer of 21. And we're able to buy a house in the midst of the housing craze, like, you know, and was like, you know, God did some amazing things in the transition. And so we're like, okay, like maybe this is where God has us. And then last July, you know, the church was facing financial hardships and had to make cuts. And so I, my position got, drew the short straw, you know, and it was a hard, it's.
[23:36] You know, and it is still a hard season, right? You're grieving what you thought. Like, we moved here with the intention of our girls graduating high school. Like, we're not people who want to keep hopping. Like, both of us lived in our houses growing up for like, you know, 10 plus years. And so you're like, okay, this is where we want to stay. Like, we want to set down roots. We want to be involved in the community.
[23:57] We want our girls to have great friendships growing up. Um and so yeah it just was a hard thing but we love flagstaff and so we're like let's stay you know it helps because my wife does have a thriving private practice here um and so so yeah the food scene it's an interesting place right like flagstaff um you you have people who have second homes here um from phoenix who come up during the summer but you also have northern Arizona University, which is a 25 person, you know, university. So you have college kids everywhere, um, which we love and we, we love that aspect and we think it brings an important.
[24:41] Um, perspectives to the community. Um, and so, yeah, you have both, you know, lots of bars that attract the college students, but you also have then some growing, restaurants that that are doing some cool cool culinary stuff you know and it's growing and people you know every the past couple years like you know some of the chefs here have been james beard semi-finalists which are sort of the academy awards of of cooking for you know those of you not familiar with it and so it's growing you know but it's hard to because flagstaff's not a cheap place to live either like we wanted to get out of what's funny dennis is like we wanted to get out of la to to get rid of to get someplace less expensive and yet we ended up in park city and now in flagstaff and so like this lord like you know you're like okay lord i guess this is you know what.
[25:34] Thankfully both places have been beautiful to live in right like we're not suffering um and so yeah it's it's fun like there's some great restaurants there's some great you know it's there's not a huge diverse scene like growing up in la you get spoiled right like la has everything imaginable and like the tacos are just otherworldly you know and there's some good tacos here and there's some good thai food but um you know it's because it's a smaller community you're just you you're limited in certain aspects like you're not um but you know there it it's still fun you know and it's still what it is. And because we have young girls, we don't go out very much anyway. So, you know, a lot of it's just eating at home or helping our girls experience better and more food.
[26:24] So, with kind of this unique background that you have, with both the background as a chef, but also as a pastor, where do you see kind of the role of the importance of food and also the table in the Christian faith? And where do you think, especially here in the United States, are we not paying attention to that? That no and that's where it all started right and you know what sent me down this road too is again bringing back to eugene as he pointed out in a book that sort of lit the fire in me is that you know the gospel writers are most fond of telling stories of jesus around the table, and like once you hear that like you see you start seeing food in the table.
[27:10] Everywhere throughout scripture you know it's like god creates us and puts puts us in a garden and full of delight, and sin enters the world through a bite, you know? And I don't think that's accidental.
[27:26] But then every time he wants to communicate salvation, he does it with food imageries, you know? Like, it starts with the Passover, it starts, you know, there's a messianic banquet, hopes and dreams, and the Lord's Supper, and then it's the marriage supper of the Lamb at the end or even like think of peter's vision and how the gentiles became included in this family of god and like why i'm sitting here today as a gentile like um it's because he had a dream about food and unclean animals and god telling him eat like don't don't call unclean what i have made clean and like again i you know food has a way of communicating something profound not just of who we are as humans, but about something profound of who we are as humans that can either unite us or divide us. Like we can use the table as a means of reconciliation and hope and, you know, breaking down the walls, you know, and, or we can use it as a means of exclusion and saying, well, you're not good enough. You, you can't come to the table. Um, and that table could be at the church or that table could be in our homes. And so I think we have to wrestle with this idea of, okay, the table, God's means and God's plan and heart is for the table to be this place of beauty and reconciliation.
[28:56] You know, I got to sit down and have a conversation with Richard Beck, and he makes the point that all of Paul's epistles could, you could argue that, Paul's epistles are all about hospitality, and how do we keep the Jews and Gentiles at the same table? And you're like, okay, yeah, like, you're not wrong.
[29:15] And so that's the tension of like, okay, how do we create and use the table as a means of welcome and allowing people to experience God? And I think it starts in the church. I've never understood why we don't allow non-Christians to take communion. Because you're like, people like growing up evangelical people will say, well, you know, they're going to heap condemnation on their heads. Well, I'm like, well, you already think they're condemned. So like, what more condemnation do you, are they going to experience? Like, couldn't it be a token of God's grace? And couldn't it be a place in which they begin, they receive Christ for the first time, where we can be the body and blood of Christ to them in some way that we can't imagine? And like why not you know and so um it's tricky right like you know and i think the evangelical the white evangelical world in which i have lived and and i'm thankful for it but it has such a, feels like it has a restricted imagination of the table like and i and maybe it's from the the reformation you know i'm sure it's complicated right there's no easy way to say it but like Like, the way that preaching has become, like, the end-all, be-all, like, we miss something relationally because that's one way. Like, you know, like, it's one-way communication, whereas the table is face-to-face, like...
[30:45] And conversing, you know, shoulder to shoulder. And so I think we're missing something, you know, and I think it starts with the Lord's Supper. I think when we think it's sort of, well, if we have time to do it, or, you know, oh, we can squeeze it in here, or maybe we, you know, give lip service to it for, you know, and maybe it's some of my not being a pastor anymore. It's like, okay, you start seeing or, you know, you can say, I can start saying things which i really felt um and so yeah i think we're missing something by not challenging people to sit at the table and um i think part of it is american culture too like there's it all it's all intertwined right dennis like it's not an easy like okay we just got to pull this one string and we can untangle it and do something like american culture doesn't have a food culture um you know i think michael poland and his like omnivore's dilemma talked about like french the french are guided by certain hospitality and dietary like traditions that we just.
[31:56] Lost you know and and maybe it's because of the beauty of the diversity we do have, you know um something got lost and so we don't have these rules that help govern how we eat in how we linger at a table. And so now it's like, I think you listened to my conversation with Andy Root and he talks about the fact that his kids have 10 minutes to scarf down their lunch at school. And you're like, what? Why? What are we doing? And.
[32:31] Music.
[32:38] Human um so yeah again it's convoluted and it's hard to like figure okay because there's not one thing you know and again as a white evangelical male like we really love making sure it's like okay what's the one thing we can do to you know change it and i'm like i don't it's there's nothing we can do um yeah you know it's fascinating um my the tradition that i'm in um which is the the Christian Church Disciples of Christ. It's a mainline denomination. And one of the things that's kind of our hallmark is that we have communion every Sunday. Right. So the table kind of center is very important. And one thing that I remember a pastor once saying, actually it was our general minister and president, and it was kind of a fraught issue on sexuality, is how we remain at the table. Even when we don't agree with each other. And I think that's something that's important in our culture is remaining at the table. And I think that that's very hard because, and this is something I don't blame one side for, and it's everyone, is that we tend to think that the other side isn't simply wrong or misguided, but evil in some ways. Right.
[34:05] You know, if you read the Bible, and as you've said, Jesus sat at tables, sometimes he sat at tables where people were opposed to one another or they didn't understand one another. And there is something about the table of trying to bring people together. And I wonder sometimes if our culture, we don't want to be at the table or remain at the table. Just something I'm thinking about as you were talking. thing yeah no and i think it is it is a hard because again the culture wants to pull us apart, and divide us you know and and not just divide us but like demonize the other side you know or like i don't feel safe with what you're saying and so and there is a place for safety right we gotta you know make sure people are safe yeah but i think at times it's like well i disagree with And so instead of doing the hard work of understanding, you know, and I fall into this trap too, you know, of like not wanting to stay at the table, but like how, if we're brothers and sisters in Christ, how do we do the hard work of listening and understanding, you know, and trying to make love more important than love?
[35:31] Than truth like you know and that sounds but you know like again like the fruit of the spirit is love and joy and peace and patience and truth telling doesn't fall there like you know there is a place for truth but like the fruit of the spirit isn't me standing there telling you the truth like it's me being loving and patient and kind and gentle and pursuing peace for for everyone one even if that means my what the piece you need means i need to sacrifice for the greater good like and so that's what i think the table invites us to but it's so hard and long and slow.
[36:14] That none of us want to do it yeah we don't have a culture where, definitely we're not a slow culture but it's straight to the imagination, yeah yeah you know one of the things you also brought up you mentioned um andrew root and in that conversation i list i actually just listened to it again you said something that was very fascinating and it actually lines up with something that he brings up a lot it's that you have said in the past that you don't like saying that um you take communion but that you receive communion. And communion is also, you know, it was established at a meal. And we even refer to communion as a meal.
[37:02] I'd love that you kind of unpack that statement of what is it important about receiving communion and maybe receiving food and how that relates to our faith. Yeah, no, and it is important. And it feels like such a small thing at times, you know, It's like, really, Andrew, like one word, like taking, receiving, does it change? And I think it does. And it sort of is touched on. Andy Root has sort of expanded my understanding. But, you know, in a culture in which accumulation of resources and hoarding or taking or just making sure I have mine is sort of the paramount goal of like, how can I accumulate more? The posture of us as believers in Jesus needs to be one of receptivity. Like we don't, I didn't take my salvation. And I'm not reformed, and so I'm not trying to be Calvinistic on anybody, but it was what Jesus did for me, that I'm sitting here, and I'm sure you feel the same way while you're sitting there. And it's why we do what we do.
[38:12] And so when we come to the table, we receive Jesus. Like, I never take Jesus.
[38:19] Like, Jesus isn't mine for the taking. Like, you know, and I think food operates in a similar way. Like, and again, it's hard because our culture never says, receive your food. You know, like I go to the grocery store and I take what I buy, you know, and I can take whatever I want as long as I can afford it. And I can have strawberries in the dead of winter and i can have um you know i can have whatever i want and i think without regards to even who made that possible so it's not only that i'm eating on you know food out of season and um i don't think there's anything sinful and wrong about that but like just to remember like okay like i didn't make any of this food happen like there are thousands of people and processes and moving parts that made all of this possible.
[39:13] And for me to think that like, I can have whatever I want, like that feels pretty arrogant. If I, you know, like, you know, and again, I fall into this trap all the time. Like, okay, we want pizza, let's go get pizza. Like, or I want steak, like I can go buy steak. Like I don't have to think about, okay, is there an animal, you know, there for meat that will sacrifice that had to die? Or, you know, are there these plants that had to die for me to have life? And so I think it is like, if we can adopt a more.
[39:48] A posture of receiving, I think, again, the table then becomes more of that avenue to linger. But if the table's always there for mine for the taking, and you and I are sitting there together, Dennis, you're there to provide me with something versus what can I receive from you, as we share this meal, and what can I offer to you, you know, from my story, my pains, my joys, that might further your growth and your journey. So again, it's one word, but I think in a culture that wants us to take everything, and you know, and we're told to go out and get it, Like, you know, I think there's something important about slowing down and receiving something, because then you're just open to the Spirit moving and the gift that God may surprise you with at the table. So, yeah, it's an interesting thing to think through and draw out all the implications, but I think it's more than just how we receive Jesus at the table. But I think it needs to impact how we receive food and receive each other at the table.
[41:11] So one of the things you led, and I kind of stumbled upon your podcast, was that you wanted to do this podcast kind of at the intersection of both food, faith, and hospitality. Kind of what led you to start it? And, I mean, what have you learned in the time that you've had this podcast? Yeah, I think in the midst of the pain and the heartache of losing my job, it was sort of like, okay, like food and faith has always been important to me.
[41:43] It always, I always got the sense and felt like the time wasn't right yet, you know, or, you know, and granted there, you know, we've had kids, like I got married, like, you know, there's a lot of life circumstances, big life circumstances that when you have a newborns, like doing more just doesn't, you can't like, um, and so, um, it was sort of as I sat with Jesus and tried to pray And, you know, like the idea of entering into this world felt right at the time. And so I was like, well, I've read a lot of books. I've interacted. I know, you know, maybe starting a podcast would be the way just to start having conversations and seeing what develops. Like, you know, getting my name out there as a possible speaker, you know, like whatever it is, you know, but also as a sense of just gives me a place to enter into this joy of this integration that I've wanted to do for so long. And so I've been surprised, you know, like my wife's always amazed that I reach out to people blindly and just ask them like, hey, you know, I read a book and I'll find the author's contact information and just email them and just really thank them. Like she's like why and i'm like well why not like the worst they do is they ignore my email and i've or they email me back and you know you just start start a conversation and, and so i just was like okay well who do i want to talk to that i've enjoyed reading their books and.
[43:13] It's just been fun to to have these conversations with people and to be like oh okay like there is something here we can explore and people want to explore and talk about and um i think there is what have i learned um.
[43:29] What's standing out to me, I think at the moment too, is the need to get our hands dirty. There's something in talking to people, they talk about farming or working in the soil and the need to just get our hands dirty away from the abstraction of theology or the abstraction of big ideas, which are important, but we get lost in those and just forget that we're embodied creatures that need sustenance and need to be in the soil. Uh, and so, yeah, I think getting our hands dirty, the importance of soil, um, I think food injustice, like, um, food for me has always been a sense of joy and abundance, like, you know, um, but that's not the case for everybody. body. Um, you know, and our food systems are broken, you know, and, um, we have too many food deserts in the U S like we, we don't need food deserts in the U S like there's, that shouldn't be an issue, like access to good, healthy food should be readily available for everyone.
[44:43] Music. And then it's just the soils. We're putting all the pesticides. Our farming, there's a lot of broken systems in food and the table that need to be addressed.
[44:44] Um, And I think we can make that happen. We just don't want to.
[45:03] But there's also that longing that the table can bring something restorative. Um and so yeah it's been a a fun journey and a challenging journey but a journey that i think people want want to take because i think you know they realize something's broken, um whether it's their experience at church or whether it's just their experience of life like and their needs they want something more but they don't know what to do, um and so maybe the table and these conversations help people think okay maybe i can just invite people and just start like and there's never a good place to start it's just starting you know like who can you invite over for dinner um your house doesn't need to be perfect and, you can serve you can order pizza in you know like that's fine the food doesn't matter it matters but but it doesn't, you know, and you can just invite people to have space to be and to take a deep breath. Um, so yeah.
[46:14] Hmm. It is interesting kind of talking about, um, food deserts. I grew up in, um, Flint, Michigan is my hometown. Um, and so usually I'd never have to say much about, I can just say Finland, everyone understands, but, um, that has become a problem in, especially where I grew up, just as a lot of stores have left. Um and you know it's it's not always easy because sometimes they're also dealing with, a lot of crime and everything but um but then you know you have to balance that is there are a lot of people who don't have the you know they can't just get into a car not everyone can get into a car and go to a drive a little bit extra far to a um a supermarket and And it's the same thing here in Minnesota, where I live in North Minneapolis. I can get into a car to buy food. That's not the case with everyone else. So it's always a hard issue. And how do you deal with that? And how do you make sure people have access to healthy food? Because, of course, not having access leads to all these other problems that can happen down the road. Yeah. And then we judge people for bad decisions that aren't necessarily their doing. Exactly. And so, yeah, it's, there's, Yeah. It's so much.
[47:42] Yeah. I agree. I agree. Yeah. So if people want to, um, know more about you,
[47:49] um, where should they go? Especially even to, to, to, uh, checking out your podcast. Yeah. So I forgot to mention the podcast is called the biggest table. Um, sort of, it was a dream that started, the name came like, what was it before we moved to Flagstaff, I was on a, just a spiritual retreat and, um, the idea of the biggest table was like, okay, you know, sort of this idea that it is not the biggest in like a Texas sense, you know, that like, but the biggest in that God's love is bigger than I think any of us can imagine. Um, and so I think, so yeah, it's called the biggest table, um, wherever you can find podcasts, we're there. Um, you know, and then I'm on Facebook and Instagram, you know, and I don't like social media, but in the midst of doing a podcast, I'm realizing you got to do some social media and connect. And that's, you know, thankfully how you and I connected and I'm super grateful. Right. Um, so yeah, um, Andrew camp, just if you search me, um, I think both of my profile pictures are of me holding a beer Stein.
[48:53] Um, you know, and that's another story of our time in Hebrew when my next door neighbor started a micro brewery and I became a regular there and had my own mug that said pastor andrew um and got comments of like i've never had a beer with a pastor like sweet then let's do it like let's let's have a beer um and so so yeah no i'd love to connect and you know and however we can help people get around the table like you know and whatever that looks like and however small that starts and if you have small kids like me if that's just making dino bites and craft mac and cheese like do it like just so your kids can have a sense of the table growing up. All right well andrews thank you so much for taking the time to interview this was really awesome and um hope to have you back again soon to talk kind of talk again no i would love to thank you dennis for reaching out and oh it's a joy all right take care thanks.
[49:49] Music.
[50:23] Well, that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I will put the link for Andrew's podcast, The Biggest Table, in the show notes. But you can also find it by going to thebiggesttable.transistor.fm. Remember to rate and review this podcast. And you can do that on your favorite podcast app so that others can find it. Pass along the episode to family and friends who might be interested. And finally, consider donating. That helps so that I can continue to produce more episodes. With that, I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. As I always like to say, thank you so much for listening and for sharing. That means a lot. Take care, everyone. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
[51:12] Music.