Is Christian Nationalism Really A Problem? with Ted Peters | Episode 181

[0:00] Music.
[0:33] Hello, and welcome to Church and Main. This is a podcast for people interested in the intersection of faith and our modern world. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Church and Main is a podcast that looks for where God is at work among the issues affecting the church and the larger society. To learn more about the podcast, to listen to past episodes, or to donate, check us out at churchandmain.org. And you can also check out churchandmaine.substack.com. You can find episodes there as well, and also articles that I've written related to where God is at work in our culture. You can subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app, and please consider leaving a review. That helps others find this podcast.
[1:26] So, ever since January 6, 2021, we have heard a lot about the term Christian nationalism. There have been news stories, articles, books, podcasts, all focused on the threat that Christian nationalism poses to American democracy. Christians of all stripes have come out against it, and denominations have passed resolutions condemning it. So Christian nationalism is a concern. And yet, are we making too much of it? Theologian Ted Peters tends to think so. He says, quote, Christian nationalism exists to be sure.
[2:09] But the description of Christian nationalism as a fire-breathing dragon in the form of a dangerous social movement is a fabrication of progressive Christians who want an excuse to engage in cultural warfare and to collect donation money. There is no Christian nationalist dragon to fight. Now, this is a contrarian and a controversial take on Christian nationalism, and I wanted to talk to Ted Peters more about his view, so that's what we're doing here today. Ted Peters is an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. He is also the Research Professor Emeritus in Systematic Theology and Ethics at Pacific Lutheran Seminary, also has that same position at the Center for Theology and Natural Sciences, and the Graduate Theological Union. All of them are in Berkeley, California.
[3:10] Ted has authored, co-authored, edited, and co-edited more than two dozen books. Topics range from sin and evil to the future of God and to points where science and religion clash and cooperate. Now, I want to make clear that this is the first in a few episodes that I'll
[3:28] be doing on Christian nationalism, looking at it from various viewpoints. So this will not be the only episode on this topic. So with that, let's listen in to this interview, this conversation with Ted Peters.
[3:43] Music.
[4:19] Well, I want to thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I thought it would be great to start off by just kind of introducing yourself to folk. I mean, I'm sort of familiar with you. Again, as we've said before the podcast, being kind of immersed in Lutherans and living in Luther land. But for others, just to kind of let people know who you are. Well, Dennis, thank you so much for having me on, and I congratulate you for the work that you're doing here on this podcast. You're trying to bring people together instead of divide them, you know. You're rare. Did you know that? Yeah, yeah.
[5:06] Well, I'm a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I grew up in the Midwest. Midwest—that's the other Midwest in Michigan, not the one that you guys have in Minnesota, those Great Plains Midwesters, etc. But I have been living in Northern California for quite a while. I became a professor at our Lutheran Seminary in Berkeley, and even though I'm emeritus now, I still do some teaching at the Graduate Theological Union. I work in what we we call public theology. That is to say, we think within the church and within the church's tradition, but try to address broadly human and social concerns. My primary area is actually theology and natural science. Science is very public, as you know. But I'm quite concerned and also about political issues, especially in the current season.
[6:11] Where there's so much anxiety, and Christians need to deal with anxiety because anxiety is the flowerbed within which sin grows. And right along with that is violence and suffering. And so I'm trying to think through what's going on in our culture these days that stir people up and make them feel frightened. And frightened people are dangerous people. Yeah. Well, I think you're right that there is a lot of anxiety these days. And that's everywhere. It doesn't really matter whether you're left, right, or in between. And I think that that has given rise to a lot of different things, of different, it blossoms in different ways. And, you know, the purpose of this kind of conversation is to talk a little bit about Christian nationalism, a little bit less about what it is, though I think we will talk about that, but kind of the response also as well. And I think one of the things that you bring up in your essays is the fact of how there is anxiety, you know, as you said, everywhere, that maybe those engaged in what could be considered Christian nationalism have an anxiety, but so do those who speak out against it. Could you kind of speak to that a little bit?
[7:40] Yes. Let's talk about our Christian nationalist neighbors down the street.
[7:47] By the way, I don't have any Christian nationalist neighbors, but I got a lot of conservative neighbors. And what they're feeling, which I think Christian nationalists feel, but a large segment of our population also feels, is.
[8:03] Our way of life is changing. And those in my generation, we thought we knew what morality is and what family is and all of these kinds of things. And the values of our culture these days celebrate things that we thought were anathema when I was a child. And what has happened here since the campaigns of Donald Trump and what I call the Maga Moscow alliance within the Republican Party is kind of taking the sparks of anxiety and dumping gasoline on and fueling the flames. And if you listen to these speeches, my gosh, in five minutes, you're terrified about the world because everything that my generation felt was near and dear and nailed down is now coming loose. And then, of course, only Donald Trump can save us. He's the Messiah.
[9:20] And I think so that's one constellation of anxiety. I think progressives, liberals and progressives feel it too, because we want to say, and that's my camp, by the way, gee, after 50 years, we've got women's reproductive rights in place. We have LGBTQ plus status and equality now in society.
[9:46] Since the civil rights movement, we've got a real reason for affirming racial equality and pursuing racial justice. And now these are under threat. And so progressives and liberals also feel anxiety. And, you know, this is spontaneous combustion just about to occur, and I think the controversy having to do with Christian nationalism, that's one of the things that is growing out of this flowerbed of anxiety, I think. You know, one of the things that you bring up in one of the essays that you talked about was that how people kind of talk about Christian nationalism kind of as this fire-breathing dragon, which you basically say... It's maybe a baby dragon, if even that, and that this is kind of a way of engage for progressives to engage in cultural warfare, really, instead of kind of whatever else, you know, and maybe even to raise money in a cynical way.
[11:05] Why do you think that progressives want to exaggerate Christian nationalism? I mean, is this kind of what happens in an election year? Is it the anxiety that people are feeling? I mean, and maybe even just to ask the basic question, do you feel that it is exaggerated in how we talk about Christian nationalism? My basic answer to your basic question is yes, I think it's exaggerated. But it's my job as a public theologian to try to understand why that's happening. Progressives are really good people, I know.
[11:42] And so what's happening? Well, first of all, with regard to the reality of Christian nationalism, I've never personally met a Christian nationalist, but I've been scouring the internet and reading books and things. And the very few Christian nationalists that I can come up with are pretty much the way they are described with regard to belief that the Christian heritage really belongs to America and there should be this identity. They really do say that. They really do believe that. But I think they're small in number, and I don't think that they've done a very good job, the Christian nationalists, of telling us what they think. What is huge, like a nuclear bomb?
[12:34] Cloud after an explosion are two groups, Christians against Christian nationalism and secularists against Christian nationalism. And the secularists against Christian nationalism are usually social scientists. But they all, the Christians against Christian nationalism and the secularists against it, are afraid of a theocracy, that the Christian nationalists are going to take over, and they're going to run America like the Taliban ran Afghanistan or something like that. I don't think that's realistic. So, I've tried to figure out what's going on, and here's what I think. My hypothesis, the progressives are out to get the evangelicals. And so, when the progressives talk about these terrible things about the Christian nationalists, they pivot on the evangelicals. Now, what I find fascinating is that evangelical leaders across the board denounce Christian nationalism.
[13:47] And so why can't progressives who denounce Christian nationalism partner with the evangelicals who denounce Christian nationalism? Why doesn't that happen? There's got to be some kind of prejudice or bias or antipathy that progressives are using as just an excuse, as a smokescreen, for getting at somebody they don't like. They don't like the evangelicals. I happen to like evangelicals I guess that's the question why is that? Because I grew up evangelical obviously as I got older and you know, came, came to terms with my sexuality, I left. But I don't begrudge evangelicals. But why is there such a kind of a hatred, and why are they mapping on something that has so little influence onto American evangelicalism? I think there are two reasons.
[14:51] You're asking the right question, why. And by the way, you should follow me with a progressive who really doesn't like evangelicals to find out what they think. But here are my two reasons. The first one is that at least for almost 10 years now, liberals and progressives have really felt a threat from the Maga Moscow wing of the Republican Party, and they want to fight it against somebody, and the Christian nationalists are too small, so they choose a bigger enemy, the evangelicals. Now, what I think is the real enemy is the Republican Party, and the evangelicals are only a substitute enemy. And yes, it's true that three-quarters of evangelicals vote Republican, and yeah, that's a problem.
[15:43] But try to persuade evangelicals to change their mind. Don't hit them with 16-inch cannonballs, you know. I have another theory, and it's corroborated a little bit by evangelical self-understanding. All right, I'm a Lutheran. You know lots of Lutherans. Well, when I grew up, we were supposed to hate Catholics. They were the enemy. Then we had the Second Vatican Council. Oh, my goodness, now we and the Catholics really feel close with one another. Well, who are we going to hate? Got to hate somebody. Somebody.
[16:19] Well, in the 1970s, liberals and progressives were feeling smug because they had embraced the civil rights and the anti-Vietnam movements, etc. And they were feeling that, I should say we, were feeling that, oh my goodness, we have been responsible in the political sphere. But those Those evangelicals, those Billy Graham followers, they stayed out of politics. It's a Christian's responsibility to be in politics. Well, you know what? The evangelicals decided that's right, and they got into politics.
[17:00] It's just that Jerry Falwell and the other television ministers delivered the evangelicals to Ronald Reagan and the Republicans and not to the Democrats. And I think that really got the liberals and progressives ticked off, and I think they've been mad at the evangelicals ever since, not because of their theology, but because of their politics. Now, those are my hypotheses, Dennis. I'm not absolutely sure I'm right, but maybe that's why our progressive and liberal Christian friends are just enjoying shooting their cannons at the evangelicals these days. When, again, if you're going to shoot cannons, please shoot them at the Republican Party, not the evangelicals.
[17:51] This kind of brings us in then to the current presidential campaign and um you know a lot of talk about christian nationalism, do they see this or can this be considered or or is is are the people who are kind of, behind or kind of pushing and talking about Christian nationalism, do they see this as a way of getting more people to the polls?
[18:20] But can it also be a danger of backfiring, that it could, instead of trying to reach out? I wish I could say yes, that the Christians against Christian nationalism would be effective in getting Democrats to go to the polls and vote. I wish that were true. Whether it's true or not, let me just say I have not seen it true.
[18:47] Backfire. That's an interesting question. I have to honestly say, I don't know. Do you have a thought about that, Dennis? Well, I mean, I don't know, but I do wonder if it's kind of going after evangelicals, that that sometimes might reinforce their views more than it would make them either change their minds or stay home or what have you. That it's not necessarily persuading them, because it doesn't always feel that the talk about Christian nationalism is designed to persuade. I mean, I could be wrong on that, but it doesn't always feel like it's trying to change minds as much as it is to reinforce value. And that it could have that effect on the other side, that it could just say, well, if that's the way you think, well, then I'm just going to vote the way I'm going to vote and that it could actually have some bad effects in that way. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[20:05] I think what the Christians against Christian nationalists observe is not a tightly knit ideology of Christian nationalism. I think what they observe is flags in the chancellors of Christian churches, pickup trucks with flags on the back, and a kind of, especially in rural areas, a sort of anti-government disposition, et cetera. And we've always had in this country people who love both God and country. I wrote a fictional novel called Forgotten Country using the label from the Boy Scouts, the old Boy Scouts. So that's always been there. To call that traditional patriotism Christian nationalism and then to oppose it, that could backfire, it seems to me. On the one hand, our evangelical leaders, I'm thinking about systematic theologian
[21:15] Roger Olson or Amanda Tyler and the Baptist Church saying Christian nationalism is idolatry. Well, that's true. But good old-fashioned American patriotism is not.
[21:31] In fact, in the civil religion tradition, Christians always hold Washington to a higher standard of judgment. Washington has to.
[21:45] Exact justice as God would exact justice, and if Washington fails, it gets prophetically critiqued. That's good old-fashioned civil religion, etc. And maybe the backfire, getting back to your question, would be maybe the progressives in their haste to clobber the Christian nationalists are going to accidentally clobber good old-fashioned American love of God and country, oh, that would be a disaster. Well, and the thing is that I have actually heard that in listening to some podcasts.
[22:27] On progressive Christian circles that really see civic religion as Christian nationalism. And that seems to be going a bit too far. And it could then indict a whole bunch of people and drag in a whole bunch of people that shouldn't be critiqued in that way or criticized in that way. Yeah. Well, I have learned by experience that military people, especially those who are career military people and then come out and they become active lay people People in congregations have leadership skills that make congregations successful. Boy, when it comes to Memorial Day or Fourth of July, I ask our military people to stand up. We say thank you for your service. We applaud.
[23:27] That's not Christian nationalism. That's loving the people that are in our community for their special work. Somehow or other, I'm not committing idolatry when I applaud career Marines or Air Force people or what have you. I would hate the anger against Christian nationalism to spill over so that we could no longer have this sense of bond and community as Americans.
[24:07] So one of the other things that I'm kind of interested in is where does someone like Donald Trump fit into all of this? Because there is usually a lot of talk about Christian nationalism and Donald Trump. Is there really a connection, or is this more about partisan politics than it is about religion and the mixture of religion and politics? Well, even though I'm a scholar, Dennis, I cannot be neutral on this particular question. I think that Donald Trump and his cronies are demagogues, and I hope I'm wrong on this, but I feel like so many liberals and progressives, as well as evangelical leaders, are demagogues.
[24:58] Our country really is in a threat or being threatened right now by Trump and the Moscow MAGA wing of the Republican Party. And you're my progressive friends who are upset about this. I have good reason to be upset, to be sure. Sure. But I don't think that Marjorie Taylor Greene or Donald Trump have deep convictions. I think they know how to manipulate. And what I feel badly about is that both progressives and evangelicals are getting manipulated. And some, what I call discourse clarification, let's get to the bottom of this. Do you and I want to be manipulated? By somebody that stupid and with such a propensity for making the kinds of mistakes that could bring us into war or something like that, I think that's where we need to target things. So I don't want to say there's not a good reason to be afraid. There really is a good reason to be afraid.
[26:18] But can you imagine Donald Trump laughing in his closet because he's got the progressives and evangelicals fighting against each other?
[26:30] And they don't need to. No.
[26:34] Yeah, and I think what I was trying to get at is that is the concern misplaced? Because there's a lot of talk about Christian nationalism.
[26:46] And it's not that no one's talking about Donald Trump, but it seems like the concern is not necessarily someone like a Stephen Wolfe as much as it is someone like a Marjorie Taylor Greene or something to that extent. that. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And one of the things I notice as you compare Stephen Wolf, who speaks for the church, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who does not speak for the church, is that the loudest voices are not found in the churches. They're found in the political arena. Yeah. That should give us pause, you know. Hmm.
[27:31] So, one of the things also that was kind of fascinating is that after, we seem to hear a lot about, more about Christian nationalism after January 6th. And I'm kind of curious, in your view, did Christian nationalism really have a role in January 6th, or was this more about political power plays? Because I think that personally it seemed that that was more the driving force than it was Christian nationalism. I don't know that people, and I think even they have even tried to find out that a lot of the people who were there at the Capitol didn't go to church. I mean, these were not church-going people that just decided to have a riot on January 6th. I concur with you, and I don't want to claim to have more knowledge than I do, but what I've observed is that the Christians against Christian nationalism get their dander up because there were pictures of Jesus, and there were signs where Jesus is my Savior and Trump is my President, etc. et cetera. So there was some kind of connection between the two.
[28:53] The question you're asking, which I think is important, did the Christian Nationalists start it? Mm-hmm. Finish it? Was it a Christian Nationalist project from beginning to end? I think the answer is pretty obviously no. It was this general fire that Trump himself was trying to kindle in order to keep himself in office, and some Christian nationalists threw in. But to call the Proud Boys Christian nationalists, that's ridiculous. So, yeah, my thought is, no, that was a political event for which we got some Christian symbols, and it wasn't paused by Christian nationalism.
[29:43] One thing that you also bring up in a lot of your essays is, and you've kind of talked about the fact that progressives don't talk about this, is black Christian nationalism. Could you kind of explain kind of what that is and what ties it has to this conversation? Well, as long as we're talking about Christian nationalism, we might as well include this group. And I think black Christian nationalism, just take a look at that period, say 1965, to the early 70s, the civil rights movement was moving into the black power phase. And I remember actually going to a meeting where Albert Klieg, who was a pastor from Detroit, he was a Michigander, Dennis. And Albert was claiming that Jesus's family came from a line of black Jews in Africa.
[30:51] Therefore, the genes of Jesus are African. And so, we can have the Church of the Black Madonna, et cetera, and what you get there is an articulation of we African-Americans have suffered not just slavery but racial prejudice since in America, and those nice white people in the civil rights movement aren't going to help us. We got to do it on our own. And so it was a way of inspiring African-American people to take control of their own destiny. I think that's what the word nationalism means in black nationalism. So it's quite different from today's Christian nationalism because—.
[31:53] Albert Klieg and the Black Madonna tradition didn't want to convert all of America for black leadership. It did want to convert all of America to racial equality and racial justice, however, in that regard. Now, the black Christian nationalists have not gone away completely, but they're not a major force having cultural impact in the way that they were 40 or 50 years ago. go. Nevertheless, what I find kind of interesting is that in all of this anger against Christian nationalists, they don't even mention the black Christian nationalists, which is a very interesting.
[32:41] Group, I think, and should at least be remembered if we shouldn't at least go out and try to shake our hands with the black Christian nationalists and say, what do you think about all this? Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why do you think there's no mention of it? I think it may be, and now I'm going to be a little bit sarcastic. I think that the progressives and liberals have created this myth that they want to live in, and so they don't really look beyond it.
[33:12] If you take a look at the literature, it's just dominated by anti-Christian nationalism. It's hard to find
[33:21] a card-carrying Christian nationalist who's talking about what I think. It's all this anti stuff. So I think that seems to be good enough for the progressives. And so because black Christian nationalism doesn't get mentioned, well, they don't talk about it. Hmm. Yeah. One of the other things that you bring up in the essay is about how, especially sometimes among progressives, There's this sense of, I think how you describe it as a white kind of biblicist or someone who's probably more a literalist on scripture is equal to white supremacy, which is kind of an interesting way of seeing things. It's like, where does that come in and all that? What I've noticed is a kind of slippage in vocabulary.
[34:14] Progressives can be kind of sneaky, too, you know. So if you take a look at 100 American evangelicals and 90 of them are white, you say, oh, we've got white evangelicalism here. Now, two sentences down, we've got white supremacist evangelicals. So the demographic white suddenly becomes doctrinaire white supremacism, and I just want to say beware of that kind of propaganda. Again, I just want to celebrate Jim Wallace, editor of Sojourners, and Roger Olson and other leaders in the evangelical camp. They are as opposed to racial injustice as any progressive is. They really are. And they get ignored when you kind of slip and say, oh, just because they're a member of the white race, they believe in white supremacism? Big mistake. Yeah, there is something that I found a little weird in that.
[35:22] We hear a lot more, and it's not just that it's evangelical, but white evangelical. And that's always kind of bothered me a bit. Yeah. One, because having grown up evangelical, I know that American evangelicalism is a lot more diverse than we sometimes either care to admit or even know. Well, in the churches you were in as a kid, was there much of the way of racial integration, or were you in a strictly Black evangelical setting? I was in both. I was in some Black evangelical settings, but I was also in settings that were primarily white, but they were integrated. There were places where there were Blacks there. You know, again, it wasn't much, but that's par for the course in some ways in life. But there wasn't this kind of... The way that you hear it sometimes, it's almost as if you're expecting to see a bunch of people in hoods that are going to be, you know, yeah, hi, and now we've got the potluck and now we're going to go and have our cross burning. And it's like, no. I mean, I think...
[36:32] There's something wrong in the way that we do that, because I think you're assuming that because these people are white and they're evangelical, then they are white supremacists. And I don't think that that's the case, and I think that there's something dangerous about that. The picture you're painting is the one that is part of my experience. I haven't studied this scientifically, but my observation in the 1970s and 80s and 90s was you could see more racial integration in evangelical churches than in mainline. Yeah, that's my experience. I saw it again and again, and I thought, this is wonderful. They're really doing it. Now, I belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is the whitest church.
[37:19] Percentage-wise, denomination in the country. And we have all these, a number of progressive leaders, again, I'm in that group, who are really, they've got all the language down with regard to being opposed to racism, but it's still a very white church. I want to say, thank God for the evangelicals. At least they know how to racially integrate. One more item. I have to say this This confuses me. The Christians against Christian nationalism will sometimes vilify Billy Graham.
[37:58] I was part of the Billy Graham crusade in 1970 in Chicago. There were hundreds. There were thousands of leaders who were African Americans, many pastors. And they had important roles, and they were fine creatures. And I just want to say, where is this Billy Graham racism stuff coming from? And Billy Graham met with Luther King. They did, yes. Right. So, at any rate, I think we need discourse clarification these days. Try to get to the bottom of this. I'm trying to do that. I'm not sure that I've gotten to the bottom of it yet.
[38:41] Well, I want to, as we kind of wrap things up, but I want to kind of talk a little bit about also your, what you do is in public theology and, you know, What should progressives and mainline Christians who are engaged in public theology, and let's face it, most of us are in some way, way, shape, or form, how should we actually be engaged in the field that isn't really playing on anxiety and fear, but really trying to, I think, stimulate and help the body politic these days? Well, I think the first thing is the progressives got to invite the evangelicals over for a barbecue. And then after you're partially satiated and feeling kind of good, remind yourselves of the grace of God, which gives us comfort in the face of our anxiety. And only when your anxiety is lowered can you really love your neighbor well. And I think to work on that, and then just ask, how do we go forward? You had that nice blog, Dennis, where you said, let's try to understand what people who vote for Trump feel and think.
[40:10] Progressives had better ask the evangelicals, what do you feel and think? Well, conversely, the evangelicals need to understand why the progressives are in favor of LGBTQ plus rights, why the progressives still think we've got to work on racial justice. So there's got to be a mutual growth in understanding, and to do it in light of what we believe the gospel to be, let's put it this way. If we try that and let the Holy Spirit try to finish the job, I can't actually predict, you know, what that would be. But, boy, the last thing we want to do is to go into that November election with progressives and evangelicals fighting against each other. That just...
[41:01] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting maybe about when I was in seminary in the 90s, there was actually a class I had. I wasn't in that class, but there were more discussions, especially in our seminaries, of liberal evangelical discussions. Discussions yeah and you would see that a lot more um 30 years ago and sadly you don't see that now right and it seems like we need to have more discussion more places where we listen to one another um and i don't know i i feel i fear i you know there's that word that we aren't doing that and that that really makes politics just much more of a fraught enterprise than it should be. Yep.
[41:59] I agree with you a thousand percent, Dennis. So if people want to know more, and I know you have an ongoing series on what you're calling Measuring Christian Nationalism, where can they find you? Well, I have a blog for Atheos, atheos.com, and my site is called Public Theology. And as you mentioned, I've got two or three more coming on measuring Christian nationalism, which I'm trying to provide the kind of analysis that would be illuminating. I have a website called tedstimelytake.com, etc. et cetera. So if you find me, I'll be glad to share you what I think. Okay. Well, Ted Peters, thank you so much for, for coming in and chatting here on the podcast today. All right, Dennis. Take care. Nice being here. Bye-bye.
[42:56] Music.
[43:29] So thanks so much for listening to this conversation with Ted Peters. And I put a number of his articles in the show notes. So there are a number of them that he has available for you to read. And as I said earlier, this is going to be the first in probably a few episodes on this topic. And my hope is to have someone, there has been some requests already, actually, for people to speak on this topic, and I want to talk to them. Now, I will put my cards on the table, as you didn't notice it in the interview itself, that I probably lean more towards Ted's view on this topic.
[44:18] I think that it is a concern, so I will not say that it is not a concern. I do wonder if it can sometimes has been over, I won't say this overblown, but sometimes that we confuse what might be more conservative Christianity with Christian nationalism. So I think it's important to have his view on there, but I also want to have the other side, the other view as well, because I think it is important, one, for me to listen to that, but for you to as well. So this is an important issue. I want to have as many sides, or have everyone at least have a voice. So long way of saying, stay tuned. There will be more on this topic. So that's it for this episode of Church in Maine. As I said earlier, remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast app. That really does help others find a podcast, and I would love that others find it. and be able to listen. And please consider passing this episode along to family and friends that might be interested. And finally, consider donating so that we can produce more episodes. You can do that. There is a link in the show notes. You can also do that at the Substack site where you can subscribe and become a paid subscriber.
[45:44] Again, that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. As I always like to say, thank you so much for listening. It really means a lot. Take care. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
[45:57] Music.