Retired pastor Robert Cornwall discusses recent political events, emphasizing the importance of Christians responding to polarization and violence by seeing each other as children of God and fostering unity. The conversation explores the motives behind the assassination attempt on Trump, highlighting concerns about increasing polarization and violence in politics. Cornwall stresses the need for faith over political allegiances and courage in maintaining relationships across divides. The discussion touches on Christian nationalism, patriotism, and the complexities of balancing political participation with religious convictions in the current political landscape. Cornwall reflects on the upcoming general election and encourages trusting in God's presence, unity, and bridge-building during times of division.
Suggested Reading and Listening:
Donald Trump and the Vibes of Destiny by Dennis Sanders
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[0:13] Music.
[0:49] Hello, and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested about the intersection of faith and the modern world. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. If you're someone who looks at the world with a day's news in one hand and the Bible in another, this is the podcast for you. This is a special episode of Church in Maine, and normally our new episodes come out on Monday or Tuesday, and I wanted this one to come out a little bit early to talk about recent events, including the attempted assassination last weekend of Donald Trump and the just-concluded Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. I wanted to talk to someone about these issues, and Bob Cornwall accepted my offer. I've known Bob for years. He is an ordained pastor in the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, and is a retired pastor that is now living, or now has been living in Troy, Michigan, just outside Detroit. He was, if the name sounds familiar, he was my guest last year when we discussed his recent book that he wrote with Ronald Allen called Second Thoughts and the Second Coming of Christ.
[2:02] And I think that I wanted to have him because I think he follows politics very well, and I thought it would be good to have a good conversation with him. I'm hoping actually throughout the rest of this season of politics that I can talk with some other people kind of about the state of politics from different viewpoints, kind of similar to what I've been wanting to do with Christian nationalism. And I will be actually having an episode coming up. It was actually one I did a few months ago, but I do want to put it up that
[2:39] will be coming out pretty soon. Soon so but that is another topic for another day right now we are going to be talking about politics right now with bob cornwall and i hope that you will join me in this conversation.
[2:54] Music.
[3:31] Thanks for joining me in this kind of, I guess, free-ranging conversation on some of the recent political events and how we as Christians, especially in mainline Protestants, should be responding to some of this.
[3:50] That's a good question. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think the first thing I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about was the assassination attempt as well, the first thing. It was like many things that seemed to be very shocking of what happened. Um i i don't know what totally the fallout will be but you know there are people that worry that this is a harbinger of what could be coming down the pike um and you know sunday i did actually as probably some people did i would say i didn't totally rewrite my sermon but i did add to it and talked a bit about the fact that we really need to see each other as children of God, and really see the importance of the communion table as coming together. And I kind of worry as a society that we don't do that. And I think that that's kind of a problem. Really, I know people hate to hear the words these days, both sides, And I think that there is something interesting about that. But but I do think it's something that infects all of us. And so that's kind of where I'm coming from about this. But I would like to hear a little bit about what you're thinking.
[5:19] So when I heard the news that someone had shot at Trump, my first inclination was, hopefully it's just firecrackers. I mean, all I heard was there were possible shots fired. And I thought, okay, hopefully this is just somebody lighting firecrackers in the back of the crowd. And that it's nothing more than that. And then when I heard that he had been shot, wounded, basically, and that, you know, it seemed like he was fine, but that he had been wounded,
[6:00] I, you know, what I thought that came to mind was, this is not good. This is not good for our nation. This is not good for our political conversation. I know where this is going to lead. And because just the way we're so polarized these days that we jumped to the polls. I being a Democrat, I've been generally pleased with the attitude and the expression of most Democratic leaders, starting with the president, who, number one, condemn violence. Political violence is not acceptable. And that wished former President Trump well. Yeah.
[6:48] Uh, but I was waiting for the other shoes to drop. Right. So that, that, and then of course it happens on a Saturday afternoon. And then, um, you know, we, I may be retired, but I'm preaching regularly at a Presbyterian church, uh, for, uh, a period of about seven months. And, um, so, you know, I had to preach and, uh, and face a congregation and I'm preaching I'm teaching at a Presbyterian church and I'm a disciple pastor, and I'm the sub for seven months while the pastor is on National Guard deployment. So it's not my church, number one.
[7:33] So I have I have a very good relationship with that congregation they I love them they love me we're you know we enjoy each other's company they, trust me so but it's not still not the church this is not my church, as their pastor their official pastor and it's a different denomination so there's a lot of things that go into that conversation so So, but I'm preaching on John the Baptist and his execution. And there were a couple of pieces of the sermon. I didn't add to my sermon. I actually dropped a couple of paragraphs. One paragraph that I had in the sermon had to do with, you know what happens to people who speak truth to power? They die. And I had mentioned, you know, Jesus and Paul and Peter, prophets of the Old Testament, Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King.
[8:39] I dropped that in part because I didn't want that to be taken as, well, Donald Trump is number one, is the one who speaks truth to power or something like that. Best just to drop that off. So I did. I did that. I just crossed it off before, you know, when I was rehearsing the sermon. When I got to the sermon, I also dropped another piece of it, and that had to do with I was going to talk about the problem of authoritarianism in our day.
[9:12] And I believe that Donald Trump has embraced authoritarianism and that his choice of J.D. Vance, who loves Victor Orban, demonstrates that that is his tendency. So I decided I needed to drop that just because I didn't want to go there for that purpose.
[9:38] But what I did was, at the very beginning of the service, rather than doing it during the sermon, I just talked about, you know, what happened yesterday, how that affects us, that we as a congregation, you know, we come from different places politically. It's one of those purple congregations. There are you know strong republicans and strong democrats in the congregation which is very typical of most mainline suburban presbyterian disciple methodists, probably maybe not so much ucc but but you know at least in our in our tradition that's what happens in our congregations right so um i just spoke to the you know to what was going on in our our society and the challenge and the polarization that we face and how something like this could unite us, but it can also divide us. Um, and we're already seeing where the divisions is, you know, what, whatever, um, initial unity that people might've embraced for a moment or two that quickly dissipated and it's over. I don't, um.
[10:50] And I don't think we're, I don't think finding the middle, uh, is very possible right now. Um, you and I have had this conversation many a time. Um, I'm probably in some ways, I guess I'm left to view politically, but, um, my whole career in my life has been devoted to, I would say to building bridges, um, and, um, And trying to reach out to people who are different. And I've done that in interfaith spaces. I've done it in political spaces. And I've done that in our churches. So, I mean, that's where my instinct goes.
[11:36] But I also have my convictions. And so I wrestle with those. And I've been largely, through all of this, I've been largely quiet. It, simply because I'm not sure that much of what we say helps. And I mean, you know, I'm a regular blogger, but I include elements of that, a more subtle message in sermons and in my lectionary reflections, and then, of course, in book reviews, especially since I've been reviewing books that deal with Christian nationalism, which is a major problem in our country. Not just Christian, but maybe, David Gushy says, religious nationalism that is there in our conversation. So there are a lot of layers to this conversation that the assassination attempt kind of uncovered. What's interesting is we don't know what the motive is.
[12:48] This young man apparently is registered as Republican, though he gave some money several years ago before he was able to vote to a progressive, to ActBlue. But, you know, if I make a donation to a local, even though it's a nonpartisan city council member's election who's using ActBlue, you know, that could be taken as, well, I gave to a progressive organization, but I really gave to a local nonpartisan office who is somebody that's just using that as their financial support.
[13:36] Piece. So, um, we don't know what the motive is. They don't seem to have any motive. He didn't, unlike many people who shoot somebody, he didn't leave a manifesto. I mean, it's almost as if he got up that morning, uh, went and bought some rounds and decided instead of going to the, uh, uh, uh, uh, the, uh, shooting range. Um, he, he decided, oh, oh, there's going to be this gathering. Let me see if I can shoot somebody. And it's almost as if, I mean.
[14:12] He's either a bad shot, Or he was intending to only knit Trump and almost, it's kind of weird. Yeah, it is. And then, of course, unfortunately, you know, theologically, we're seeing people who, you know, it's like God spared, you know, Donald Trump. And, you know, this is a sign that God is on his side. And that's simply bad theology. Otherwise, where is God when the Oxford shooter here in Michigan or in El Valde or at the synagogues or at the churches, where was God in all of that? Or even in Butler where there were several other people who were shot,
[15:01] including one that died. Yeah, yeah. So he was like shooting just randomly at people. So, until we know more, it's like, this conversation doesn't go anywhere.
[15:23] So, I'm not sure what we do with that. Other than that, it just is part of a larger political conversation that is increasingly violent.
[15:36] And seems to love violence. And, you know, it's not something that I embrace and I know you don't embrace. And hopefully none of our friends do either. But it's just one of those things where, I mean, I grew up a good, solid establishment Republican, you know, in Oregon. My father was in Northern California, was chair of a local Republican Party Central Committee. My mother was president of the local Republican women. You know, we were part of that whole world.
[16:15] It wasn't really until seminary that I became a Democrat, and it was more a sense that—what was really interesting is that I asked my mother for an absentee ballot application. Application so I could vote for Mark Hatfield, who was a Republican senator from Oregon. And mom asked me, why would I want that? And I said, well, I, you know, I like Mark Hatfield. And she goes, well, you know, he's really a Democrat. And I became a Democrat. At that moment, I converted.
[16:54] If Mark Hatfield is really a Democrat and I really like Mark Hatfield, then And I guess I'm a Democrat and I've been ever since. But the challenge is, of course, as you know, that how do we allow our faith to guide our politics rather than our politics to define our faith?
[17:16] Yeah, I think that that's been a major problem in our society these days. And I guess I sit at an interesting kind of position because, you know, I have seen it obviously from and in the evangelical world, but I've also seen it in the progressive world as well. And that we, in some ways, tend to find a candidate and they become kind of the avatar of our faith. And I don't think that's good. I think that that's dangerous. And I think you see that clearly with how people respond to Trump, but I do see it and have seen it with, um democratic leaders as well and you know i think at times we don't see these people as humans that they are yes there are people that are running for office i think we should take that very seriously um but they.
[18:28] Music. of goodness and grace they're people people and we should look at it that way and and instead of you know thinking that there are our saviors yes you know part of this is um, you know the question of religious nationalism as we equate our our faith with um with our nation, um and that's really always been there i know uh bo underwood and uh brian kaler wrote a book that published by our denominational press called baptizing america which shows how mainline and Protestants really created this world of Christian nationalism. I mean, we set the ball in motion, and they got out of our control, apparently.
[18:29] Aren't an avatar
[19:30] But, you know, most of our churches, the churches that I've served and the church that I'm preaching at now, there's an American flag. Fortunately, it's not on the podium or on the chancel, but it's still there in the sanctuary. Some of them, our churches, have them on the chancel. And in many ways, I believe that, well, I know to be true, that I think it would be easier in most of our churches, conservative, evangelical, and even in disciple mainline churches, it would be easier to take the cross out of the church than it would be the American flag. We've made the American flag a religious icon. And of course, I've never liked In God We Trust as being our national motto. I've always preferred E Pluribus Unum, which should have been our national motto. It was the unofficial one and never was made official. And then in the 1950s, in a world of anti-communism, we added God to our money and to our Pledge of Allegiance and things like that. And so I believe we're one world under God, but I don't believe we're one nation after God. That brings up an important question is...
[20:54] And I've had some slight disagreement with Bo and Brian, partially because I worry that they are confusing patriotism with nationalism. And so that always brings up the question, can a Christian be patriotic to their country?
[21:14] And if so, what does that look like? um because too often it feels like the it it's and i don't have a i'm not crazy about putting a flag in a sanctuary either um for uh for for some of the same reasons but how do we balance that and and because i feel like sometimes we don't really provide a good answer to that except that this is bad and then it feels like we're then making we're trying to say that any type of love of country is bad and i don't think that's what people are trying to say but it's not really always spelled out either and so i always want i'm always kind of curious what is the, you know can a christian have love for their country as long as it's properly ordered right.
[22:07] And the problem is is that the blurring of the lines between nationalism in which the nation becomes primary in our loyalties and patriotism which is love of country because this is where i mean um i grew up in oregon i love oregon right you know um i'm an oregon ducks fan i'm not a University of Michigan or Michigan State fan. And so I love the country that I live in, but I'm also quite aware that this isn't the only country God loves, and that God doesn't love us any more than God loves any other country in the world. And where I think where that line blurs is when we move from recognizing that God is the God of all the nations to that God is the God of our nation. And there's always been that. Historically, there has been, you know, we're the city shining on a hill. We are the commonwealth. We're the new Israel. So there has always been, since the very beginning, when the pilgrims, the Puritans made their way here there has been this sense of.
[23:33] God's special love for this country. And then, of course, Manifest Destiny has been part of our identity.
[23:43] And, you know, you and I are disciples, and Alexander Campbell, one of our founders, he was a post-millennialist who embraced Manifest Destiny. He believed very strongly that God had a special purpose for this country, and that the gospel would move across the world, and with it, the Western Anglo-Saxon Celtic identity would be spread across the land, right? Right. And so and across the world, you know, as it moved westward from, you know, along the frontier, that's our heritage. It's it's one that we would rather not embrace, perhaps. But but that's where it becomes dangerous is when we believe that that God has a special purpose for our country. and that gives us a sense of purpose. As you know, I wrote a book on the Lord's Prayer, which I titled Ultimate Allegiance, published quite a number of years ago. And in that book, I argue that for the church, the Lord's Prayer is our Pledge of Allegiance.
[25:12] And so when we pray that prayer, in most of our churches, We pray that weekly in one form or another, in one place or another in the service. When we pray that prayer, we are pledging our allegiance to God and to the kingdom of God, and that that supersedes any other allegiance.
[25:32] And so I think if we took that seriously, you know, that would help us deal with some of the issues that we face today is that and would allow us. I'm preaching a Sunday from Ephesians 2, which is that beautiful passage about, you know, Jesus, the walls being torn down, walls of hostility being torn down.
[25:55] And I'm going to begin the sermon by taking us back, first of all, to Reagan's challenge to Gorbachev, followed by the tearing down of the wall in West Berlin, which, you know, I mean, I watched that on CNN. You know, I'm pretty sure it was CNN. And I just watched with awe how this was happening. And then we learned that the foundation for that movement that tore down the walls in East Germany was a church.
[26:34] Yep. It was started in a prayer meeting seven years before. Lutheran Church in Leipzig. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's a powerful symbol that can help us deal with what's going on. There are all these walls, and we've built them. And I believe that, you know, as followers of Jesus, our calling is to tear down walls, not build them.
[27:03] Now, I know that has political implications for the border, but you know what I mean.
[27:09] When i'm for open borders i'm not talking about the mexican u.s border necessarily i'm talking about the border between us um and you know um, I have dearly beloved friends who are totally committed to Trump.
[27:32] And I've had to make some decisions because I was worried. I was worried that a beautiful friendship that I've had since they moved. He moved in with his family. They are twins. wins uh but that when they he's been my best he's been like a brother to me since my since we were seventh grade um and how do you let that go um you can't i mean this at least you shouldn't no but we you know we we find ourselves difficult you know when we when we disagree so strongly only about the nation, about the world, about our faith and our politics, everything, you know, um, and I, you know, I see him posting on, on Facebook. I could respond, but it's not going to go anywhere. Um, so how do we build those? How do we create? So I just reviewed a book, uh, claiming the middle, uh, claiming the courageous middle, uh, by Shirley Mullen.
[28:43] How do we claim that, that middle space, and not being necessarily moderates or centrists, but that we are willing to go into the middle space and stay there and not leave? And, you know, we're seeing this, of course, in our churches. We saw the United Methodist Church divide over sexual orientation and gender. You know, disciples already had that separation years ago.
[29:23] But, you know, so there's always been these issues that separate us to create walls within us. And we find it difficult to stay engaged in that middle. It does take courage. And sometimes I have the courage and sometimes I don't. Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, it's interesting you talk about the fact of having friends who are Trump supporters. And, you know, I think far too many people don't have no people from on the other side of the political spectrum. So what is it about your faith that keeps you in relationship with those people? Even when, you know, if you're on on Facebook and they're posting something that could be a little bit crazy, that you're still wanting to maintain that relationship.
[30:19] And pastors of mainline churches, I think, for the most part, we face congregations that are—they may be a shade bluer or a shade redder, but they're folks in both sides. You know, I mean, when we think in terms of, I mean, the fairly substantial numbers of mainline, just regular lay folks in mainline churches who vote for Trump, they tend to be white, but they vote for Trump. You know, they're pastors by and large. I mean, there are some conservative pastors in our mainline churches, but who vote Republican. But I would say the vast majority disciple pastors that I know, I would say 95% that I know are Democrats. UCC probably is 99%, and Methodists maybe in the, and Presbyterian probably in the 90 to 95% too, you know. I mean, we're basically clergy and seminary professors. I, you know, I'm a Fuller graduate to Evangelical School.
[31:44] My guess is, from what I know from when I was a student there too many years ago, that by and large, I think pretty much all the faculty I know who had any political engagement, this was back in the 80s, of course, were to left of center. So they were mostly Democrat. So, you know, so that, of course, the world that I grew up in, And I mean, you know, the Republican Party had Mark Catfields. Here in Michigan, William Milliken, I think, was the governor. You know, so there were always progressive, there were always progressive Republicans and there were always conservative Democrats. And so they were able to to find the middle path to bipartisanship because there were people who who were in the parties that were.
[32:43] Might who were of different perspectives within their own parties and who could build those bridges. But we basically that doesn't exist hardly at all anymore. I mean, you can't you can't win a primary. I mean, in many of our constituencies, political constituencies, the real election is the primary. And then primaries, the far left and the far right, tend to have the power. Mm-hmm.
[33:18] Yeah, I mean, I kind of ramble there, but no, no, no, you did not ramble. You know, one of the things that I wanted to also kind of bring up is thinking about the kind of the fallout from the first presidential debate between President Biden and former President Trump. And of course, we know there's been a lot of consternation among the Democrats about whether or not to that if President Biden should step down from the race, if not the presidency, because of what seems to be cognitive issues.
[34:03] And there's also just a lot of, I think, it's funny for me, kind of coming where I'm coming from, from the center right, that it looks very familiar to what was happening probably in 2016, that there were kind of a lot of people who saw problems but didn't say anything, thing because they didn't want to rock the boat. Now that's not necessarily the same situation now in the Democrats. And we actually, we don't know how it will end. It might end with no one saying anything and, and president Biden stays where he is, or it could go the other way. It's still a, an unsettled issue, but it seems to be that there is this.
[34:55] There's this kind of pull of looking at um our our leaders and no one wanting to question them.
[35:05] And to me that that that almost seems somewhat idolatrous like we we put them into this, stratosphere and you know there are kind of the excuse making or you just like i said go silent and don't say anything. And I, I, I'm someone that sometimes wishes and longs for, um, the smoke filled room. Um, because I think at least then that there was, were some gatekeepers and the, the candidates weren't irreplaceable. Um, and, and I think sometimes we don't really have those institutional kind of gates anymore that kind of kind of keep things and and that's more of a structural issue but I think on a spiritual or a religious issue is that we don't again I get back to this because it's not a broken record see that these people are people and And that some of them are really good at what they could do and some of them aren't. But we don't really have that ability anymore.
[36:28] So, you know, I approach this politically, not religiously, as somewhat of an institutionalist. Um so um my my feeling my gut feeling on things like this is that we all knew that joe biden was old and that um he number one we we've always known that he's gaffe prone, uh it's always been his curse i mean every time he's run he's for a president uh going back to 1988 you know he sticks his foot in his mouth that's just who joe biden is um he he has dealt with throughout his life with uh with stuttering issue uh and so some of his the way his mannerisms and speech is reflective of his attempt to deal with that.
[37:35] Um, I personally feel like, you know, if, if the party felt that he was unable to fulfill this calling as candidate, they could have dealt with this two years ago. They could have, they could have gone to him and said, you know, um, it's time for other There are other people to run for office, and you can run, but there could be other people that would run. But nobody of any stature, there was one backbencher Republican congressman who ran. But he wasn't going to go anywhere. He's unknown. No one was going to vote for him against a president that has, by and large, been a very successful president. I mean, he inherited COVID, and a lot of the issues that we look at right now, he inherited. I mean, whoever was going to be the president was going to have to deal with the aftermath of COVID. And Trump and the Democrats and the Congress pumped a lot of money into the system in 2020, which created inflation.
[39:04] I find it interesting. This, I guess, goes back to my roots to be a Republican back in the day. Um you know we were taught we were free market people and the market determines cost, so when they're when you know if you're if if you don't have products available to you they become rare they become more costly and therefore the people who have the money will purchase them but they'll they'll pay more um and so the costs go up right um that's just part of capitalism, but I think the American people forgot, what's really interesting, the Republican Party, which was the party of capitalism, has become a non-capitalist party, anti-capitalist party, at least in their rhetoric. And the Democrats have become more capitalist, even though their rhetoric is more liberal. It's just we've kind of reversed everything, right? And so I kind of laugh at the politics there. So here's my feeling, and it's not going to go away because I just saw Adam Schiff said that Biden should step down or step away from the campaign.
[40:29] Um, number one, there will not be a, an open convention. Number two is that Joe Biden controls almost all of the delegates and they're committed to, according to the party, which even the party leaders don't seem to understand this, um, that according to the rules on the first ballot, the, um, the, the delegates are committed to the candidate that they were elected to represent. And since he already has all the candidates, all the delegates necessary to be nominated, the only way for him to step aside, I mean, to be replaced, is for him to step aside. And here's the other part of it. If he steps aside, he's going to throw his delegates to only one person. All of Harris.
[41:28] She is he has invested in her and all the people who say you know gretchen or, gavin or any number of other people should be the candidate that's not going to happen so the democrats have to do politically one of two things they either have to get totally behind biden, or they have to do what they have not been willing to do and this is where my political hat goes on And that is to get behind Kamala Harris. They have never embraced her. She's not the best candidate, but I think she's a pretty smart person that she was a DA for San Francisco. She was the Attorney General of California, apparently a pretty successful one, and a senator from California. California, right? So she has pretty good experience. She's a prosecutor. And so she has a whole lot more government experience and more preparation than does J.D. Vance, whose claim to fame is he wrote a book, which apparently tries to represent Appalachian values, even though he was from the suburban Cincinnati. Cincinnati, just not quite Appalachia as far as I know my geography. I may have missed it, and Cincinnati is...
[42:53] Is in Appalachia, but I don't think so. And people in Appalachia basically say J.D. Vance didn't represent them at all. So there's a question there. So politically, I think you're right. There was a time, but back in the day when you had smoke-filled rooms, you would have taken care of these things. That doesn't mean that you had great candidates, but our system has never been perfect in that. And so I, you know, when you think in terms of the great presidents, there have been fewer than, there have been more bad, or not, I would say mediocre presidents than great presidents. And history judges that long term.
[43:39] So, you know, Abraham Lincoln becomes a greatest, one of the great presidents because he led the country during the time of turmoil. Oil uh franklin roosevelt is a great president because he was the president and that helped the nation get out of uh the depression even though it's not probably world war ii that really ended depression um so but he gets the because of that he's a great president um other presidents did Did great things like LBJ, but he was taken down by Vietnam. Probably the most progressive president we've ever had on things like health care was Richard Nixon.
[44:24] You know, I mean, he was he was ready and willing to go with something that would make Obamacare look right wing. Uh but ted kennedy wanted more than that it didn't come along so i mean that's only something i'm always fascinated is that no one ever talks about how ted kennedy basically killed the chance for universal health care i know which was proposed by and embraced by richard nixon yeah um so that just tells us a lot about our our our politics and then of course religion gets thrown in there um and historically you know we're a majority christian nation but but that's becoming less true it's not just because immigration and you've got folks coming from from asia who are hindu and and whatever though that's contributes to that um but the reality is is that the vast majority of people under 40 have no faith have no commitment religious commitments they may have faith they They may even love Jesus, but they have no commitment to the church, as seen by our congregations that are, you know, where I'm 66 and I'm one of the youngest people in the church, right? Mm-hmm. So that's...
[45:49] That's a reality that I don't think we're ready to face, which is why I find what's interesting is, like, a lot of this Christian nationalism, a lot of the people who are embracing it don't go to church. They aren't part of churches. You know, it's more of a political thing. It's like, okay, I'm an evangelical because I'm a Trump Republican. I don't believe in any of this stuff. But, you know, it's like, we don't need Jesus in this. It's like, you preach about social justice. Well, we don't like that. Well, that's Jesus. Well, who cares? Well, it's a cultural thing. It's not necessarily a spiritual thing. Correct. And that has been an issue. And that brings into a whole other thing about class and religious participation, which is probably for another show. But a lot of people, especially that kind of, I would say, would make up the Republican Party now, are people who I think would consider themselves culturally Christian, but they're not part of a regular faith community. Right. And then Democrats, you know, I mean, there are plenty of Democrats who are faithful believers. You know, they love Jesus. uh they might be even church people you know kind of like me.
[47:18] So um you know you you've got both there's cultural christianity has been with us since constantine right um and uh so um.
[47:35] It's just kind of a strange reality. What's funny is, go back to J.D. Vance, I find interesting is that he's an adult convert to Roman Catholicism. And as we all know, adult converts tend to dive in the deep end, right? I mean, it's like it's all or nothing. And they tend to be the most rigid of whatever the perspective is.
[48:01] But he's married to a Hindu. do so that's what i find quite interesting because you know how does she feel about all this apparently she's fine with that you're not no big deal um but i'm interesting about interested in dinner time table conversations.
[48:24] I have no idea. You know, one of my closest friends here in Troy is Hindu. And, you know, she was a state rep and ran for state senate and lost. But we have interesting conversations, you know, because of that. Um, you know, so I'm moving to Troy, which is, uh, probably close to a third Asian of some sort, you know, uh, and predominantly South Asian. So, um, that's one of the interesting things about this community. When we talk about faith and politics and how all of this works together, is that we have divides within the South Asian community politically between Muslims and Hindus. And a lot of the...
[49:23] So there were people who opposed Padma because she was a Hindu, and the people who opposed her were Muslims, not from Pakistan, but from India. Oh, yeah. My good friend who's Muslim, who's friends with Padma, would tell me, he said, it's not the Pakistani Muslims that are opposing Padma, it's the Indian Muslims. So they're fighting about debates going on in India, but they're doing it here in Troy.
[49:58] From half a world away. Half a world away. So there's all of these things that complicate who we are, and religion plays a role, but oftentimes it's cultural dynamics. Yep. You know, so, I mean, I'm a good patriotic American liberal, establishment liberal Democrat, a strong Trinitarian disciple, pastor, ecumenist, who has a Master's of Divinity and PhD from the leading evangelical seminary in the country, right? Right.
[50:52] So I wanted to actually wrap up with one final question here. And it's that there is a, I actually a while back interviewed a Presbyterian pastor in North Carolina. And asked him the question of what he was going to do on November 10th. And that's the first Sunday after the general election. And he gave me his answer, that it was basically that the church would be actually starting a series on the Lord's Prayer.
[51:31] His whole thing is that he is preaching to the whole church. This is not trying to pick a side, so he's not going to be trying to preach about the election in that way. So I guess my question I know that you're retired and you're not always you're preaching not every Sunday now but, if you are in the pulpit or if you're not maybe you're in the pews on that day, what do you want to hear on that Sunday.
[52:06] So the most likely is I'm not in the pulpit that Sunday unless somebody needs pulpit supply Dan will have been back for three weeks in the church, so I won't be preaching that Sunday. There. The likelihood is, unless a pastor gets scared from preaching that Sunday and begs me to preach for them in pulpit supply, it's unlikely I'm in the pulpit. But I did look back to what I preached in 2016 on the Sunday after, where I addressed in the sermon, at the beginning of the sermon, that not everyone here this morning is happy and some are happy with what transpired. That we don't know what the future holds.
[53:08] And so I tried to just address that right up front and then go on from that. My hope, what I would hope to hear, is that we would hear a word of.
[53:25] God's with us, whatever. And I will tell you, I am afraid of what might happen if Donald Trump becomes president. Because I do truly believe he's unhinged. And that the party has totally embraced him. In the first term, there were people within the party who were willing to stand up to him.
[53:49] Including Mike Pence. um that's all the the those um bumper uh things they're they're off uh um jd vance is a lot smarter than donald trump and totally has embraced the mega movement um and so i am i am deeply worried about the future of our country. I really am. I'm afraid that if the Republicans get control of Congress and the presidency with the Supreme Court, that there's no boundaries now. I mean, we're looking at Victor Orban, because a lot of people, both Trump and J.D. Vance, are real big fans of Victor Orban, who is an authoritarian figure.
[54:51] I'm afraid of what will happen. So part of that is I have to be convinced that that there are there are sufficient remedies to that, that this that this will not take place, though. Though I am totally, I will admit, I am totally anxious, scared out of my pants that if the Democrats don't win at least one of the houses of Congress, that we're in trouble. So with that said, I need to be reassured that no matter what happens, God is there with us. That God was with the Christians during the Roman Empire. God was with the Christians in East Germany.
[55:47] God was with the Christians in the Soviet Bloc. And so that, you know, God is with us. So I have to have that. I have to be reminded of that. Whether I hear it in the pulpit or not. And probably if I was in the pulpit, I would need to make that really clear right up front. And then I'd probably go on with the, I'm a lectionary preacher, then I'd just go on with whatever the lectionary has to say. What is interesting, that sermon on 2016 was actually supposed to be a stewardship sermon. Hmm.
[56:34] Interesting so i had to deal with stewardship right after i dealt with the with the election, Some would say that there's not that much difference. Probably not. So that's where I'm at.
[56:54] I'm concerned, but we've been through this before, I think, so I'm hopeful that we'll get through it again. Yeah, that the better angels will emerge and that we'll step back from the brink. Whatever, even if Donald Trump wins and the Republicans win, that there's enough people within that Republican Party who are willing to stand and say, wait a minute, authoritarianism is not in our DNA. As a people. Mm-hmm. Though people seem to be confused with a republic and a democracy these days.
[57:49] Yeah, we're a republic because we're not a monarchy. We're a democracy, but we're a representative one. Mm-hmm. And I kind of like it that way. Mm-hmm. I think we're better suited for that. but we'll see what happens. Yep, we'll see. We don't know.
[58:17] We just don't, and all we can do is really trust that God is with us. That's right. We may have to be like that pastor, Pastor Fuhrer in Leipzig, and just pray. Just pray. You never know what will happen. When you pray. No. Apparently it launched a revolution. Actually it did. That led to the fall of the Soviet Union, for that matter. Mm-hmm. It all started in the prayer meeting in Leipzig. I actually have preached on that whole story. Yeah. So have I, so I'm going to do it again. Yeah. It's a good, it is really a powerful story. It is. Well, Bob, thank you so much for chatting with me on all of this. And definitely God be with you in these kind of tumultuous days. Yes, and as you as well. So we can weather this storm. Maybe do some work that would build some bridges.
[59:21] Mm-hmm. I agree. All right.
[59:24] Music.
[59:59] I'm curious what you thought of the conversation. What are you thinking about the state of politics? What are your thoughts about the recent assassination attempt? What about the recently concluded Republican National Convention? Are you excited about that? Does it scare you? What did you think about J.D. Vance being picked as the vice presidential candidate to Donald Trump? And who are you thinking about voting for in November and why? Why? Drop me a line by sending an email to churchinmaineatsubstack.com. I'd love to hear what you all are thinking.
[1:00:35] And again, if you want to learn more about the podcast or listen to past episodes or even donate, don't forget to check out the website, which is at churchinmaine.org. And if you're also interested, you can visit churchinmaine.substack.com to read articles. I actually just have a recent article up, um, and that link is in the show notes, um, kind of about this, the, this moment and how Donald Trump speaks to that moment. Um, if you're interested, uh, give it a read. I'd love to know what you think about it. Uh, also I am starting to experiment with putting up full videos and, um, maybe not putting them. Um, some of them probably will go up on our YouTube site, uh, but, um, they'll be available first on Substack and they'll be available for people who are, um, paying members. Um, and if you're interested in doing that, just go to the Substack site. It'll show you, um, what you need to do to become a subscriber.
[1:01:44] Uh, remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast app that does help others find this podcast. podcasts, and consider passing this episode along to families and friends who might be interested. So that is it for this special episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thanks so much for listening, and take care, everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you soon.
[1:02:10] Music.
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