In an era of social media influencers and viral hot takes, the word "prophetic" gets thrown around constantly — but usually it just means "someone saying things I agree with." Dennis Sanders sits down with writer and communications professional Ryan Self to dig into what the biblical prophets actually looked like, and why today's version often falls dangerously short.
Ryan, who writes the Substack Ryan's Boring Book Club, recently published a two-part series — Preachers, Prophets, and Politicians — examining how the religious left and right are both falling into the same trap: mistaking tribal partisanship for genuine moral courage. From megachurch pastors building empires on outrage clicks, to progressive Christian influencers spreading election conspiracies, to politicians wrapping their campaigns in the language of the gospel, Dennis and Ryan explore how audience capture, social media incentives, and the hunger for a platform are quietly eroding the church's credibility.
Shownotes:
Preachers, Prophets and Politicians (Part 1)
Preachers, Prophets and Politicians (Part Two)
Don't make Colbert a free speech martyr
Related Episodes:
LGBTQ Allies and Effective Inclusion with Ryan Self | Episode 243
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00:00:27 --> 00:00:33 Greetings, everyone, and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested
00:00:33 --> 00:00:38 in the intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:46 I was reading something, actually today, on Substack Notes, where someone noted
00:00:46 --> 00:00:50 that comedians are our modern prophets.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 My response to that was, huh.
00:00:55 --> 00:01:02 Now, I'm just a simple pastor, I'm not a Bible scholar, but when I read the prophets in the Bible,
00:01:03 --> 00:01:07 they don't tend to be the type of people that are really popular,
00:01:07 --> 00:01:11 and they definitely don't tend to be the people that get lots of laughs.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:18 Most of the time, they don't want the job, and actually they seem to be hated
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 by, I don't know, everyone.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:26 But I've noticed for years, whenever that word prophetic is used,
00:01:26 --> 00:01:34 it's almost always about people who like something that someone says.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:39 And being that I'm a part of a mainline Protestant denomination,
00:01:40 --> 00:01:46 a lot of at least pastors and a lot of people in the denomination tend to lean
00:01:46 --> 00:01:52 left, the word prophetic is almost always applied to people who are politically progressive.
00:01:52 --> 00:01:57 I almost never hear it applied to a moderate or a conservative.
00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 And so that always brings up the question, what does it mean to be prophetic?
00:02:04 --> 00:02:09 Returning guest Ryan Self argues that maybe we need to better understand the
00:02:09 --> 00:02:14 meaning of a prophet, especially in these days of social media influencers.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:21 Self wrote a two-part series on his substack back in April that's titled Preachers,
00:02:21 --> 00:02:23 Prophets, and Politicians.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:28 And I want to share a quote actually from his first essay, and I think it kind
00:02:28 --> 00:02:32 of sums up what these two articles are talking about.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:39 He says, A prophetic voice is not simply one that speaks passionately about injustice. this.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:47 It is one that speaks truth consistently, even when that truth is uncomfortable for its own audience.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:53 Your willingness or not to criticize your own side shows whether you are being
00:02:53 --> 00:02:56 prophetic or just partisan.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:04 So, today, I'm going to talk with Ryan about what it means to be prophetic,
00:03:05 --> 00:03:07 What it means to have a prophetic voice.
00:03:09 --> 00:03:12 Before we go into that conversation a little bit about Ryan,
00:03:12 --> 00:03:16 Ryan is a communications professional in Austin, Texas.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:22 He is a native Texan and has what I think is a very good substack called Ryan's
00:03:22 --> 00:03:29 Boring Book Club, where he writes on culture, politics, and yes, book reviews.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:33 So, here is my conversation with Ryan Self.
00:03:52 --> 00:03:58 All right, Ryan, it is good to have you back, and I wanted to talk to you about
00:03:58 --> 00:04:05 two articles that you wrote that were kind of about politics and the faith,
00:04:05 --> 00:04:10 and I thought that they were both interesting just because it,
00:04:11 --> 00:04:16 I think like the first one, you kind of started out talking with a pastor that
00:04:16 --> 00:04:19 I guess is kind of known more on the right,
00:04:19 --> 00:04:26 but you kind of use that more as a setup to leading into talking a little bit
00:04:26 --> 00:04:31 about what's happening on kind of the religious left.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:42 Why don't we just go from there to get an overview about those two articles in Substack?
00:04:43 --> 00:04:47 Sure. Yeah, thank you for having me back. I always enjoy your podcast.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:54 But yes, so I wrote two kind of series, preachers, prophets,
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 and politicians, kind of exploring what it means to be prophetic.
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 I do use that in air quotes.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:05 And so I started off the first piece, was really more about the preacher's side
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 of it and their use of social media especially.
00:05:09 --> 00:05:14 So I talked about preacher Josh Howerton, who has a very large following.
00:05:14 --> 00:05:18 I think he has more than a million followers on Twitter, X.
00:05:19 --> 00:05:24 A large social media following, YouTube, all that stuff. And I have family members
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 who attended his church for a long time.
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 And just more and more over the years, it became more partisan.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:37 It came more just kind of a coarse,
00:05:37 --> 00:05:41 tribal, you know,
00:05:42 --> 00:05:47 atmosphere of and kind of culminated in Howerton preaching, you know,
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 explicit about it, but like that, you know, Christians should vote for Donald Trump.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:57 And that got him even more attention and more praise.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:07 That seemed to many to fuel that ego of now he's got this massive platform that's
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10 even more massive and he's become a figure on.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:19 The christian right and so and that just kind of fuels itself and so i talked about um,
00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 uh dr richard beck's recent article
00:06:24 --> 00:06:27 and dr rich and and dr beck um
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 you know richard beck i he was a professor of mine at acu i
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 think he's probably fairly well i think i've
00:06:33 --> 00:06:37 heard him referenced in other podcasts um you
00:06:37 --> 00:06:39 know just yeah i really liked his i what was
00:06:39 --> 00:06:43 his book was it hunting magic eels it just came out of it was a few years ago
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 and really i'm looking at i guess he has a new one coming out that i want to
00:06:46 --> 00:06:52 read so yeah yeah he he's a wonderful person can attest him personally but you
00:06:52 --> 00:06:57 know your audience probably fairly familiar with him um but no he is he is on the more,
00:06:58 --> 00:07:02 uh you know he remember he's an elder back in the church i believe still in
00:07:02 --> 00:07:05 the church of christ he's still at acu you know more.
00:07:06 --> 00:07:12 Fairly theologically conservative church, but he's more on the left himself.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:18 But he wrote what I think was a very insightful piece about if it's popular, it's not Christian.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:25 And his argument is basically if the bigger the following, the more massive
00:07:25 --> 00:07:28 the social media following and the platform,
00:07:28 --> 00:07:32 the less likely it is that you're encountering authentic, real
00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 Christian content because that audience capture
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 dynamic is always there you know
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 the bigger the platform the more uh the temptation
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 to kind of speak to you know
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 one tribal audience you know it rewards you with the
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 clicks and likes and subscribes especially when
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 you're talking about you know pay you know when when money becomes involved
00:07:53 --> 00:07:58 we have like paid subscribers to sub stack or you have you know monetizing your
00:07:58 --> 00:08:05 youtube or book sales or what have you there's just that temptation to you know
00:08:05 --> 00:08:13 really dial up your rhetoric because you know we we all know this on on social media you know the more,
00:08:13 --> 00:08:23 enraging it gets the more engagement it gets well you know so if you have if you are skilled at,
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 enragement, you will get more engagement.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:28 Then you'll have a larger following.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:36 Beck's premise is that if you see someone with a large following,
00:08:36 --> 00:08:41 there's a chance that it's maybe more of a tribal audience capture,
00:08:41 --> 00:08:46 an actual thoughtful discussion.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:48 That was my.
00:08:49 --> 00:08:52 You know basis for the rest of
00:08:52 --> 00:08:55 the article just talking about you know
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 you see this especially on the
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 right it's very prominent just because the religious right is
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 just larger and more prominent more dominant um and
00:09:04 --> 00:09:07 he's you know examples abound but kind
00:09:07 --> 00:09:10 of what i was trying to also get at was because there's
00:09:10 --> 00:09:14 been so much focus on the right i think it's led
00:09:14 --> 00:09:16 to the religious left kind of
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 um excusing bad behavior of
00:09:19 --> 00:09:23 their own and excusing some tribalistic behavior
00:09:23 --> 00:09:26 and you see that examples like you
00:09:26 --> 00:09:29 know john pavlovitz uh who's a very prominent uh
00:09:29 --> 00:09:33 progressive social media presence uh who
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 you know claims attrition mantle
00:09:36 --> 00:09:40 but is spraying conspiracy theories about
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 the 2024 election that kamala harris actually
00:09:43 --> 00:09:47 won and just very contemptuous um
00:09:47 --> 00:09:54 social media but that sometimes gets excused because well we have to pay attention
00:09:54 --> 00:09:58 to the right and so that's kind of where i was going with that and i had a few
00:09:58 --> 00:10:02 different examples but that's kind of an overview of the first one yeah i actually
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 want to talk a little bit more about john pavlovitz because he,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:12 is someone that I see a lot on social media and gets a lot of attention.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:20 But it's just funny, a lot of what he writes is, as you've said, is very contemptuous.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:22 It's very mean-spirited.
00:10:23 --> 00:10:29 And I'm always surprised that he is so popular and just kind of comes off.
00:10:31 --> 00:10:35 I mean, it's one of the things that, you know, how we usually will say that
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 if the other side did it, we would not tolerate it. And we wouldn't.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:45 But because he's going after the people that we don't like, then it's okay.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 But it just seems like that's, it just seems wrong.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:52 It doesn't seem like how he acts is very Christ-like.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:58 Yeah. And there's also this dynamic of, and I see this too, and it's on the
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 right and the left, but I see it.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:06 In my own circles, in some of the more progressive spaces I'm sometimes in, of.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 John Pelavis wrote a book called If Jesus is Love, Don't Be a Jerk.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:21 And so there's this weird dynamic of he's preaching, love your enemies,
00:11:21 --> 00:11:26 love your neighbor, and then just full-blown contempt on social media.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:33 And he recently had a whole series called Loathe Your Neighbor.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:45 Which was poking fun at evangelicals or MAGA and conservative evangelicals claiming
00:11:45 --> 00:11:46 that they loathe their neighbor.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:50 And so it was just kind of a just evangelical bashing, basically.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:57 And he had folks like Brian Recker, who was someone I, we read his book for a small group.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 And also the same dynamic, I would say, is just overflowing with contempt while
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 also preaching a spirituality of love.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:11 And there's just this whole ecosystem that just seems like it's run on contempt.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:14 But at the same time, it's this...
00:12:15 --> 00:12:24 If God is love, don't be a jerk, you know, and it's a very confusing message, I would say.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:30 But yeah, it just it goes back to evangelical bashing, which I think is exhausting,
00:12:30 --> 00:12:32 personally. And that's a whole nother topic.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 But yeah, John Pavlovitz is an interesting character.
00:12:36 --> 00:12:41 And, you know, I've seen, you know, my own life, like I know,
00:12:41 --> 00:12:45 a progressive pastor has a very large trolling himself.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:53 Who privately shared with me that he was concerned about Pavlovich's election conspiracism.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:59 But this particular pastor never shared publicly about that.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:06 And it's hard not to feel like, well, if a right-wing pastor was sharing stuff
00:13:06 --> 00:13:07 like that, that would get denounced.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:16 But there's this ecosystem of, well, our tribe is righteous and our cause is noble.
00:13:16 --> 00:13:21 Therefore, we're going to overlook some of the harmful stuff going on.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:27 And I think that's so damaging to credibility of not only those individuals,
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 but just the credibility of the church to be able to have that prophetic voice.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:34 Because if you're not criticizing your own side, you're only criticizing the
00:13:34 --> 00:13:41 other side, well, then that just becomes tribal and partisan, not really principled.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:46 And I think that's kind of part of the dynamic I was trying to tease out with my column.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:53 What do you think it is that we tend to look at the word, and I mean,
00:13:53 --> 00:13:56 it's the word that we, especially on the progressive side we'll use a lot,
00:13:57 --> 00:13:59 is the word prophetic. And.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:08 It's kind of like the phrase from The Princess Bride that you keep using that
00:14:08 --> 00:14:10 word, but I don't think you know what it means.
00:14:11 --> 00:14:19 Because we hear a lot of what it means to be prophetic, but usually it feels
00:14:19 --> 00:14:25 like it's A, you're saying the things that I agree with, and B,
00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 it's against the other guy.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:33 But that's not the image of a prophet in the Bible, it seems.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:40 Yeah. And, you know, we look at the prophets in the Bible, Jeremiah and Isaiah,
00:14:40 --> 00:14:46 and like there's, and obviously Jesus being one of them, there's always a real cost.
00:14:46 --> 00:14:51 Sometimes it's their life, you know, and Paul and just, you know,
00:14:51 --> 00:14:53 the apostles, like there's a cost.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 There's a real heavy cost to being prophetic.
00:14:57 --> 00:15:03 You are telling people things they don't want to hear, but you are standing
00:15:03 --> 00:15:10 on your moral convictions and what you believe is right.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:14 And so you're speaking that truth, sometimes truth to power,
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 often truth to power, but it's something that they don't want to hear,
00:15:17 --> 00:15:20 and it's very uncomfortable, and it comes with a real cost.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:25 Whereas a lot of times on social media, it's you're sharing something that you
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 know will get lots of likes and clicks and engagement.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:33 And sure, you might get also pushback, but that just also feeds into the whole
00:15:33 --> 00:15:40 cycle of if people are enraged online, then that just brings up the algorithm
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 even more and rewards that.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:50 So there's this tendency to say, oh, I'm getting pushback on social media,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:54 therefore there's a cost associated with it.
00:15:54 --> 00:16:02 But that's not the same thing as losing your livelihood or even your life or
00:16:02 --> 00:16:06 having the real cost, losing relationships, friendships.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:16 I'm just doing hot takes on Twitter all the time, and sometimes people get mad.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:22 So yeah, I think we overuse the word prophetic.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:29 You know not everything is prophetic um and a lot of times people label things
00:16:29 --> 00:16:34 that are as prophetic when it's really just I like your hot take you know um,
00:16:36 --> 00:16:42 What do you think is the reasoning, and you kind of talk about this with audience
00:16:42 --> 00:16:51 capture and how people are kind of always going after the likes, the clicks.
00:16:53 --> 00:17:03 I mean, kind of what does that say in how we talk about politics and how do we kind of balance that?
00:17:03 --> 00:17:10 Because I think that it's a problem these days with social media is that there
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 is always that allure for virality.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:19 But there's also that it's a double-edged sword because then you can't ever
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22 be critical of your own side.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:27 And I mean, I guess I wonder, how does that harm Christian witness?
00:17:29 --> 00:17:34 Yeah, there was a really good piece in Christianity Today recently,
00:17:34 --> 00:17:35 I want to say it was Christianity.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:42 I believe it was urgency is not faithfulness. It was talking about,
00:17:42 --> 00:17:47 you know, this impulse to have a take on everything, to need to speak out,
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 to say, you know, something happens, we have to respond right away.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:59 And I've seen this in pastors where, you know, the longer it takes for them
00:17:59 --> 00:18:05 to think things through, the more thoughtful the more even handed,
00:18:06 --> 00:18:14 you know the more just I would say a little more Christian their writing is
00:18:14 --> 00:18:19 a book it takes a long time you've got to think through things it's a little more you know.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 You know it's not just in the
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 moment it's speaking like kind of eternal truths
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 you know and sermons can also be you.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32 Know they're also take longer times you know
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 they may take several weeks obviously more and more than
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 i do but you know that you have to sit with it you have to think
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 through it like what like what am i trying to say work through all
00:18:41 --> 00:18:44 that you know often in in the process of writing
00:18:44 --> 00:18:48 you're also coming to your own understandings um
00:18:48 --> 00:18:51 and the end result is just more thoughtful but on
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 twitter it's just instantaneous it's just
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 that first thought that fur and it's it's
00:18:57 --> 00:19:01 typically you know your lizard brain kicking in and
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04 i'm gonna fire off this tweet and that's you
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 know on the timeline if one end is like a book and
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 then a little closer is a sermon well on the other end
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14 instantaneous is social media and
00:19:14 --> 00:19:18 it's often not thoughtful it's often not measured
00:19:18 --> 00:19:20 or you know it's just
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 like a hot take and that's where
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 i think you know people really get into trouble
00:19:26 --> 00:19:30 and i i don't
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33 know what like the good balance is but i my opinion
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 is you know i think pastors should probably be
00:19:36 --> 00:19:39 less engaged on social media
00:19:39 --> 00:19:47 versus more because it's just the all the incentives are bad that I give rewards
00:19:47 --> 00:19:54 contempt and judgmentalism and moralism and binary us versus them thinking it
00:19:54 --> 00:19:56 does not reward thoughtfulness.
00:19:57 --> 00:20:02 You know basically it does not reward the fruits of the spirit it does not reward
00:20:02 --> 00:20:08 love, joy, peace, patience kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control it does
00:20:08 --> 00:20:10 not reward self-control you know,
00:20:11 --> 00:20:19 And so I don't, I don't know how constructive having a large social media following
00:20:19 --> 00:20:26 can really be, you know, you see some folks, maybe like Russell Moore or, um,
00:20:26 --> 00:20:30 you know, David, you know, some people there, there's some examples out there.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 I think I, people I think are, you know,
00:20:33 --> 00:20:36 thoughtful but it's all the
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 incentives are bad so it's you
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 know i think another yeah i was talking to
00:20:42 --> 00:20:49 a my friend of mine who's a pastor up in chicago um you know close friend known
00:20:49 --> 00:20:56 him since college uh and he his his thoughts and i've kind of come to a similar
00:20:56 --> 00:21:02 conclusion of you know pastors they're they're.
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 First and foremost, should be focusing on the local church, their church,
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10 their congregation. What does their congregation need?
00:21:11 --> 00:21:22 What is the pain points, the needs, everything going on with what is right in front of them?
00:21:23 --> 00:21:31 And when you try to become, you know, a national pundit, it's always spouting
00:21:31 --> 00:21:35 off hot takes, you know, your attention is being directed elsewhere.
00:21:36 --> 00:21:40 It's being directed, and often it's being directed toward things that you really
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 cannot control too much.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:47 You know, you can fire off endless hot takes about this, that,
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 the other, you know, current news event.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:54 Is that really making a huge difference compared
00:21:54 --> 00:21:57 to you have people right in front of you in your
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00 pews to focus on who could
00:22:00 --> 00:22:06 use your time and attention and resources um but that time and attention is
00:22:06 --> 00:22:11 being diverted into social media and i just i don't think it's a very healthy
00:22:11 --> 00:22:16 dynamic and so my my you know pastor friend up in chicago was that's where he's
00:22:16 --> 00:22:18 landed is that you know Really,
00:22:18 --> 00:22:24 it should be almost exclusively the local church and anything outside that can be a real distraction.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, obviously,
00:22:30 --> 00:22:37 I mean, part of my work is communications, besides being a pastor of social media, but it's,
00:22:38 --> 00:22:45 I've learned a lot about these days trying to think before I post and maybe
00:22:45 --> 00:22:51 posting in ways that are trying to be more thoughtful about stuff and not just a hot take.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:56 Because, good Lord, I do see a lot of stuff.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 There is someone that I know that it was a pastor,
00:23:02 --> 00:23:08 was very, I think, thoughtful, and I don't know if it's just because this person
00:23:08 --> 00:23:15 is now retired or whatever, obviously, is much more on social media than they used to be.
00:23:17 --> 00:23:22 Good Lord, they kind of say things that are just like, Right.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 No, you shouldn't be saying this, you should, no, no, I mean,
00:23:25 --> 00:23:30 and it's one thing to have an opinion, I think that, but even there,
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 you have to be careful how you do that.
00:23:36 --> 00:23:40 I don't want to go as far as saying pastors shouldn't be on social media,
00:23:40 --> 00:23:46 but I feel like for some reason, as a pastor, there is a burden of being responsible,
00:23:46 --> 00:23:51 of being the grown up, And sometimes we just don't do that.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 Yeah, I think that's a really key point.
00:23:55 --> 00:24:00 And also, I mean, obviously, you know, with your platform, like these are constructive
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 conversations, but they're about things that impact people's lives.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:11 It's not just we're going to be Fox News, MS Now, you know, style shows back and forth.
00:24:12 --> 00:24:16 It's like, let's talk, let's, let's talk through these issues together.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:19 But to your point about.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 Sorry, there was something I wanted to say about your last point.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:33 Pastors in social media or think before you post? Yeah, think before you post.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:39 Yeah, I thought I'll come back to it.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:47 Well, I mean, I think it is. I mean, I do see a lot of pastors when I would
00:24:47 --> 00:24:53 follow TikTok, which I have to say, just being a crotchety gentleman.
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 I don't get it.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:01 But, you know, people who just kind of do all the stuff on TikTok or reels or
00:25:01 --> 00:25:05 whatever, and there are pastors that do that.
00:25:06 --> 00:25:12 But it's too much of an influencer, and I don't think that that's really helpful.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:18 Because you're playing to an audience, but you're not, I don't think that that's
00:25:18 --> 00:25:23 part of your role as a pastor is supposed to be to that local,
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 as you've said, that local congregation.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:30 That needs your pastoring, that needs your, for you to tend to.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:34 It's not a bunch of the people out there.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:38 I mean, and, and I think, you know.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:44 You also have to wonder, have to think about how often, how do you want to,
00:25:44 --> 00:25:50 how important is that to you and how much is that going to cost you?
00:25:51 --> 00:25:56 Cause there are probably things I could do that could make more people read
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 my sub stack or make people listen to this podcast.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:03 But one, it's a lot of work to do that. And two, to.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 It would be doing things that I just don't think are very Christian,
00:26:07 --> 00:26:10 and I just don't want to do that.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:16 Yeah, I remember what I was going to say, and it's to the point of pastoring people.
00:26:16 --> 00:26:23 There's also this danger of when a pastor is constantly on social media adding
00:26:23 --> 00:26:27 all this contempt, you're pastoring people.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:32 You're discipling people in like this is the way you engage with the world.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:35 You know when you are constantly firing off
00:26:35 --> 00:26:38 hot takes about you know the crazy
00:26:38 --> 00:26:42 lives or the right-wingers you are discipling
00:26:42 --> 00:26:47 people like this is how you engage with that tribe um or just engage with the
00:26:47 --> 00:26:52 world in general you know like this contempt is okay well my pastor is out there
00:26:52 --> 00:26:59 on social media adding up hot takes and getting into fights you know on twitter it's like this
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 is perfectly acceptable and it's even
00:27:02 --> 00:27:05 worse when it's kind of framed as like oh
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 this is jesus work you know this is justice work
00:27:08 --> 00:27:11 um it's like it's not it's not
00:27:11 --> 00:27:17 being you know being a self righteous jerk online is not is not jesus work um
00:27:17 --> 00:27:26 but yeah and i i have seen that in my own life where I see people who sometimes
00:27:26 --> 00:27:29 even in like church leadership positions,
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 they're like small group leaders or what have you,
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 and their social media is just contempt.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:40 And you can almost draw a direct line to like who they're following and like,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:48 oh, you are mirroring this person online that is also sprouting this contempt. And it works for them.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:56 So you can do that as well. and yeah, it's just damaging all around.
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 I wanted to actually move to the second part your your second
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 article because i thought that was interesting too and you
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 kind of focus um a lot on um
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 james tallarico um who is
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 the texas i want to make sure a state senator
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 that is actually running for the u.s senate
00:28:15 --> 00:28:18 from texas he's a state yeah oh
00:28:18 --> 00:28:21 he's a state rep okay i don't know why okay but he
00:28:21 --> 00:28:26 is thank you yes and um and
00:28:26 --> 00:28:30 we'll know for in a few weeks what could be an interesting matchup
00:28:30 --> 00:28:35 um in a few months because he could be running against the attorney general
00:28:35 --> 00:28:44 ken paxton who um is interesting um as a candidate um but you kind of talk a
00:28:44 --> 00:28:49 little bit about his role in what is he you know.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:57 How he kind of presents himself, what's kind of all behind that.
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 And I think it's interesting, you were very honest in saying that,
00:29:00 --> 00:29:04 you know, if it comes down to between him and Paxton, you know who you're voting
00:29:04 --> 00:29:05 for, and it's not Paxton.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:11 But that there is some cost to what he's doing or how he's presenting himself.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:18 Could you kind of give an overview of that second article? Yeah,
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 I think James Haderico presents an interesting case study.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:29 He was a teacher for a long time.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 He has been in seminary at Austin Presbyterian, I want to say.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:38 And so he is preparing for seminary, but also he put that on a hold to run for higher office.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:49 And so he does bring that seminarian ground to his work.
00:29:49 --> 00:29:57 And he is very open about his Christian faith and puts out a part of his campaign messaging.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:03 So it'll be an interesting dynamic in Texas where we have Ken Paxton,
00:30:04 --> 00:30:08 who's the Texas Attorney General, and he has numerous scandals.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 His wife has filed for divorce.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:18 He was impeached by the Texas House, which is dominated by Texas Republicans.
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 This was his own side that decided we have too much.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:27 But he was not convicted by the Senate, so he remained in office.
00:30:27 --> 00:30:31 But needless to say he is you
00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 know has lots of character issues that are
00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 on display but he's also one that uh ken
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40 paxton is also someone who you know proclaims christian faith
00:30:40 --> 00:30:45 and uses that often in his own messaging um so it'll be an interesting dynamic
00:30:45 --> 00:30:51 of paxton versus talarico and so you know talarico in the sense of just basic
00:30:51 --> 00:30:57 decency uh presents a stark contrast that's what David French was arguing in
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 his New York Times op-ed recently.
00:31:00 --> 00:31:04 But it's coming down to basic human decency. You know, Calarico is a clear winner.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:11 You know, on that note, I think David French is right. And David French got
00:31:11 --> 00:31:13 a lot of blowback from that.
00:31:13 --> 00:31:18 I think some of that is hypocritical for the right who's supported, you know,
00:31:18 --> 00:31:24 politicians like Trump and mixing and saying that, like, he has his own Christian
00:31:24 --> 00:31:29 witness and baptizing some of the rhetoric as somehow a.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:35 Anything related to the gospels, um, to then critique, to give him a pass and
00:31:35 --> 00:31:39 then critique Tallarico is hypocritical.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:45 Um, so that being said, so there wasn't, so I started off a piece with,
00:31:45 --> 00:31:52 uh, what I think is an interesting quote from, uh, James Tallarico's pastor, who's also a mentor.
00:31:52 --> 00:31:58 He's James, Jim Rigby is a very prominent figure in James Tallarico's life.
00:31:58 --> 00:32:01 He married his parents
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 he baptized James Tallarico he has
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 been James Tallarico's pastor he's definitely
00:32:07 --> 00:32:16 his spiritual mentor but there's a quote that appeared in Texas Monthly profile
00:32:16 --> 00:32:20 that I think was excellent and it's called The Last Temptation of James Tallarico
00:32:20 --> 00:32:27 but this quote from Rigby is kind of what I think was kind of the frame for the piece.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:30 And here's a quote from the article.
00:32:30 --> 00:32:34 Rigby didn't tell Tallarico outright what to do, but he did explain that choosing
00:32:34 --> 00:32:39 for politicians' path would not be the prophetic one, that it would come with certain pitfalls.
00:32:39 --> 00:32:44 The prophets, he said, were not fortune tellers, but rather interpreters of
00:32:44 --> 00:32:45 the political situation of their time.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:49 They also gave up political power to maintain their purity.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:54 A politician never gets to choose between pure good and pure evil,
00:32:54 --> 00:32:58 Rigby recalled saying, when you have power, and you're supposed to be negotiating
00:32:58 --> 00:33:03 between two different sides, there's no purity, which is why the prophets surrendered power.
00:33:04 --> 00:33:08 And so, you know, Tallarico obviously didn't take that.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:12 Particular path uh he chose a politician's path uh
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 he put a seminary on hold and ran
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 for higher office first for this being a state
00:33:18 --> 00:33:22 rep and then now running for u.s senate um but
00:33:22 --> 00:33:25 i think that frame i think his james jim rigby
00:33:25 --> 00:33:28 gets it right on this this count that
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31 you know these are these are two different paths uh there
00:33:31 --> 00:33:35 is the politician's path there is the profits slash
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38 pastor's path they're not the same um there
00:33:38 --> 00:33:43 is not overlap you cannot wear both of those hats um i think a lot of people
00:33:43 --> 00:33:49 uh you know we see this very commonly on the right where there is a sense of
00:33:49 --> 00:33:53 oh they're being you know they're a politician but they're also being a prophet
00:33:53 --> 00:33:57 like well those are two different things but now on the left there's that same,
00:33:58 --> 00:34:02 tendency of like oh this is a uniquely christian
00:34:02 --> 00:34:06 witness um and i
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 guess my point is that teller because a politician
00:34:09 --> 00:34:17 um you know we have to evaluate what he says based on on that and so you know
00:34:17 --> 00:34:22 if you've been in texas you you've seen a lot of these ads i think i think Tallarica
00:34:22 --> 00:34:26 has a lot of admirable qualities.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:29 I was very impressed with his Joe Rogan interview.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:32 I was very impressed with his Ezra Klein interview.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:37 But once you're in partisan politics, you're running for higher office,
00:34:38 --> 00:34:43 that colors all of your statements.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45 They have to be evaluated through that filter.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:51 When you are a politician, you're trying to win votes.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:58 So you're going to avoid saying things that will lose you votes and say things that will win you votes.
00:34:58 --> 00:35:04 And so, I mean, it's very basic, but it feels like some people have forgotten that.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:10 And if you've lived in Texas, as long as I have, you've seen these cycles every
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 few years where there is a figure out.
00:35:13 --> 00:35:21 Um you know who's a rising star uh on the left and there's a message about bridging
00:35:21 --> 00:35:26 divides coming together coming you know and like that's a beautiful wonderful message.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:34 But i think beto is beto o'rourke who ran back in 2018 and then again governor in 2022,
00:35:35 --> 00:35:39 is a great example of this because you
00:35:39 --> 00:35:42 know in 2018 the messaging was you know
00:35:42 --> 00:35:45 let's cross divides he i i voted for beto at
00:35:45 --> 00:35:48 the time because i thought he i really liked
00:35:48 --> 00:35:51 his message he was doing facebook
00:35:51 --> 00:35:54 lives with a republican congressman will heard
00:35:54 --> 00:35:57 um he was doing a lots of like outreach
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 and just lots of great moments
00:36:00 --> 00:36:03 of like we need to transcend
00:36:03 --> 00:36:06 politics we need to come together
00:36:06 --> 00:36:09 build bridges work together
00:36:09 --> 00:36:13 great messaging that was
00:36:13 --> 00:36:19 2018 2020 he runs for president and it's hell yes we're taking your ak-47s you
00:36:19 --> 00:36:26 know it's it's the messaging almost overnight completely changes now it's tribalistic
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 now it's we are in a war we are you know.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:34 Us versus them and it's like well yes when
00:36:34 --> 00:36:37 he was running for texas for u.s
00:36:37 --> 00:36:40 senate in texas you know he's trying
00:36:40 --> 00:36:43 to win over a red state when he's running
00:36:43 --> 00:36:46 through president in the in the in the democratic primary he's trying to win
00:36:46 --> 00:36:50 over democratic primary voters those are two different audiences two different
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 messages same person so that's kind of the background of a lot of this where
00:36:55 --> 00:37:02 we have to evaluate people based on being a politician.
00:37:02 --> 00:37:09 And so to just kind of ignore that and say, well, he's speaking one way,
00:37:09 --> 00:37:11 I think that's a problem.
00:37:15 --> 00:37:20 I think one of the things that you kind of mentioned and you talk about in that article is just also,
00:37:21 --> 00:37:25 I mean, and it comes with the territory, and it's not necessarily a bad thing,
00:37:25 --> 00:37:34 but I think it complicates matters, is that a politician has to make compromises.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:38 And that's part of the job, or at least it should be part of the job.
00:37:41 --> 00:37:41 And...
00:37:43 --> 00:37:48 It just also seems like with being a politician that you also sometimes end
00:37:48 --> 00:37:56 up not always telling everything or telling the truth about everything.
00:37:56 --> 00:38:01 And I think you include something that I think was in the Texas Monthly article
00:38:01 --> 00:38:10 about him not receiving any PAC money, but yet also receiving money from the widow,
00:38:10 --> 00:38:15 Sheldon Adelson, which is confusing in many ways.
00:38:17 --> 00:38:24 And it just says that kind of goes against at least the image that you're trying to project.
00:38:24 --> 00:38:28 And I think that that also leads to another thing, observation,
00:38:28 --> 00:38:33 is that, and you find this underwrite too, so I'm not just faulting Tallarico,
00:38:33 --> 00:38:39 but when you try to kind of inject religion into all of this,
00:38:39 --> 00:38:45 you're kind of creating this image, and it's a projection,
00:38:45 --> 00:38:47 but it may not always be the truth.
00:38:48 --> 00:38:51 And i wonder about that sometimes with tal
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 rico but and with other politicians too that
00:38:54 --> 00:38:58 but i just think that since he's kind of up
00:38:58 --> 00:39:01 front right now it's just there but you see this with politicians on the right
00:39:01 --> 00:39:06 too who are projecting one thing but then i mean are just total hypocrites and
00:39:06 --> 00:39:11 and in many ways yeah and i like when you're dealing with politicians you you
00:39:11 --> 00:39:15 should understand that they are saying what they want you to hear.
00:39:15 --> 00:39:18 They're saying what they think will win them votes.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:21 And so the example you mentioned is.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:27 You know, Tal Reco's big thing is going up against billionaires.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:31 You know, there's a very common messaging on the left is about billionaires,
00:39:31 --> 00:39:36 and especially, you know, hack money, you know, not taking super back money.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:40 But when you go back to his most recent campaign,
00:39:41 --> 00:39:47 his biggest donor, as you mentioned, was Miriam Adelson, Sheldon Adelson's widow,
00:39:47 --> 00:39:53 who's a major fundraiser for the GOP and for Trump, very closely aligned with Trump.
00:39:54 --> 00:40:01 And their money comes from casinos, just a huge casino empire.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:06 And so obviously Miriam Adelson would like for casino gambling,
00:40:06 --> 00:40:13 legalized gambling to become, to come to Texas, you know, for that to be allowed.
00:40:13 --> 00:40:18 And Texas is a huge market and they would love to introduce casino gambling
00:40:18 --> 00:40:20 here in the Lone Star State.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:26 And so around the time that Tal Rico gets this, uh, you know,
00:40:27 --> 00:40:32 it was, I think it was $59, which for an individual is a lot of money for,
00:40:32 --> 00:40:35 you know, a campaign, you know, that's, that's.
00:40:37 --> 00:40:41 You know, it's not as much, you know, it's not so much the amount,
00:40:41 --> 00:40:46 but just the fact that like, took Miriam Allison's money.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:51 And at the time, Miriam Allison is trying to get casinos into Texas.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:56 And there were bills that were up for a vote.
00:40:57 --> 00:40:59 And Tallarico voted in favor of a
00:40:59 --> 00:41:04 bill that would have expanded legalized gambling into the state of Texas.
00:41:04 --> 00:41:07 And so what some folks have pointed
00:41:07 --> 00:41:15 out is, you can only imagine if Tallarico's opponent had done that.
00:41:15 --> 00:41:21 You can only imagine if Tallarico's opponent had taken Miriam Adelson's money
00:41:21 --> 00:41:27 and then voted in ways that would seem to benefit Miriam Adelson's money.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:33 There would be talks about, this is not what love your neighbor looks like.
00:41:33 --> 00:41:44 There's a quote from a story that comes from an anti-gambling advocate, Les Bernal.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:49 He says, the one word that comes to mind to describe his position would be hypocrisy,
00:41:49 --> 00:41:52 says Les Bernal, the executive director of Stop Predatory Gambling,
00:41:53 --> 00:41:55 national group that advocates against legal gambling.
00:41:55 --> 00:41:58 Quote if he is studying the gospel he must
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01 miss the reading where jesus says love others like i love
00:42:01 --> 00:42:03 you casino gambling especially is a prime
00:42:03 --> 00:42:06 example of loving yourself more than your neighbor because
00:42:06 --> 00:42:13 it's a business based on greed manipulation and exploitation so it's like gambling
00:42:13 --> 00:42:22 is you know it's can become predatory the it disproportionately affects you
00:42:22 --> 00:42:24 know the poor the marginalized this,
00:42:25 --> 00:42:30 is something that seems to go against Calarico's values, you would think.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:35 But the messaging remains, I'm standing up to billionaires.
00:42:35 --> 00:42:39 And also saying, I haven't taken a dime of corporate PAC money,
00:42:39 --> 00:42:42 which is technically true. Technically true.
00:42:42 --> 00:42:49 Technically true. But Miriam Adelson's PAC is an advocacy PAC.
00:42:49 --> 00:42:51 It's a different, it's, you know, it's according to the IRS,
00:42:52 --> 00:42:53 it's categorized differently.
00:42:54 --> 00:42:58 But it's the average voter is not going to make that distinction.
00:42:59 --> 00:43:03 And so, but these are kind of things, this is, this is the bread and butter
00:43:03 --> 00:43:07 of politicians. This is just, this is how politicians operate.
00:43:08 --> 00:43:12 But when you, we come from Tallarico where the messaging is,
00:43:13 --> 00:43:18 you know, it seems to be one of like, I am more pure.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:20 I am, you know, I'm.
00:43:20 --> 00:43:26 I'm not like those other politicians. My message is one of Christian faith.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:34 Christian faith is a bleeding heart of my campaign, and Jesus directs everything that I'm doing.
00:43:34 --> 00:43:44 Well, that just causes all kinds of confusion because it's just messing with the message.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:49 It's like Jim Rickley said, his pastor, there's no purity in that.
00:43:49 --> 00:43:52 You know you're you can't
00:43:52 --> 00:43:55 be a prophet and be a politician because you're
00:43:55 --> 00:43:59 going to make compromises you're going to be tempted with all
00:43:59 --> 00:44:02 kinds of ways every single day to make
00:44:02 --> 00:44:08 compromises not just like you know legislative compromises compromise your character
00:44:08 --> 00:44:12 compromise your ethic compromise your values you know and it's gonna be very
00:44:12 --> 00:44:18 difficult to resist that temptation but when you're a politician like that that
00:44:18 --> 00:44:22 is that's the air we breathe unfortunately.
00:44:23 --> 00:44:32 And so so to to to claim that and then also claim to be prophetic is i it raises
00:44:32 --> 00:44:40 issues for me is what i was trying to get at in the in the yeah you know i mean personally i'm not,
00:44:41 --> 00:44:45 against gambling per se, but I am concerned about the proliferation.
00:44:45 --> 00:44:50 I mean, I would have been concerned about legal gambling, you know,
00:44:50 --> 00:44:53 that example in Texas in that way.
00:44:54 --> 00:45:00 And I think that there are social costs to it. And I think the danger is that
00:45:00 --> 00:45:06 you can, on the one hand, talk about caring for the poor and justice and making
00:45:06 --> 00:45:08 that from a religious standpoint.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:15 But then also supporting this bill and taking money from a PAC that was,
00:45:15 --> 00:45:22 you know, basically expanding gambling in a state where there are lots of poor people and all of that.
00:45:22 --> 00:45:27 So it's just kind of like, yeah, you can't know that that doesn't work at all.
00:45:28 --> 00:45:32 Yeah. I mean, you got to choose one or the other. Yeah. I think something that
00:45:32 --> 00:45:40 also rubs people the wrong way is the way Haldorado's messaging is very moralizing.
00:45:40 --> 00:45:45 It's very black. I mean, it's talk about transcending differences,
00:45:45 --> 00:45:51 but there's a lot of those people have the wrong Christianity.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:54 I have my people have the right Christianity.
00:45:55 --> 00:46:00 We're doing things right. They're doing things wrong. They don't care about these groups. I do.
00:46:01 --> 00:46:06 And so there's, it's when you become that, you know,
00:46:07 --> 00:46:12 righteous and immoralizing, but then just also have all these things going on
00:46:12 --> 00:46:18 behind the background where no, but you're also compromising a lot and you're,
00:46:18 --> 00:46:21 you know, it, it, it really rubs people the wrong way.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:26 But I think just the messaging, to me, it feels like it lacks humility.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:35 And it also portrays those – it feels like there's just a lot of those people.
00:46:35 --> 00:46:40 Even though the messaging is transcending differences, there's a lot of those
00:46:40 --> 00:46:42 people have corrupted Christianity.
00:46:43 --> 00:46:45 I have – I'm doing it right.
00:46:46 --> 00:46:49 You know, that kind of messaging. So, yeah.
00:46:50 --> 00:46:55 How oh i don't know if how aware you are of adam hamilton.
00:46:56 --> 00:47:00 He's a United Methodist pastor. Okay, I'm not... Okay.
00:47:01 --> 00:47:06 The reason I ask is because he is pastor of a church just outside of Kansas
00:47:06 --> 00:47:08 City, Church of the Resurrection.
00:47:09 --> 00:47:15 I think it's the largest United Methodist church, about 20 members.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:24 And maybe in March, he shared a video that he was thinking about running for Senate.
00:47:24 --> 00:47:32 In Kansas, and initially was going to run as an independent,
00:47:33 --> 00:47:37 and is now actually going to be running as a Democrat.
00:47:39 --> 00:47:44 And I'm just kind of interested to see where that will go, because I think one
00:47:44 --> 00:47:48 of his hallmarks has always been about reaching across differences,
00:47:49 --> 00:47:51 especially ideological differences.
00:47:51 --> 00:47:57 And his church does have people from across the ideological spectrum, um.
00:47:59 --> 00:48:06 But I also wonder where kind of in the campaign, and I think the Kansas GOP
00:48:06 --> 00:48:09 has already been hitting him hard.
00:48:10 --> 00:48:12 They're also showing their own hypocrisy as well.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:19 But I just also wonder where the compromises will come in because,
00:48:19 --> 00:48:26 you know, his whole thing is that he wants to be an independent minded politician.
00:48:27 --> 00:48:30 But i also know that the the times that
00:48:30 --> 00:48:34 we are in is that you really can't be that um
00:48:34 --> 00:48:37 and so i'm just kind of curious where where that will
00:48:37 --> 00:48:40 go where that will end up and i'm kind of working on
00:48:40 --> 00:48:43 something to write about on that
00:48:43 --> 00:48:46 so that was just curious yeah that's
00:48:46 --> 00:48:49 very interesting i think um another element
00:48:49 --> 00:48:54 similar to that is you know whenever whenever pastors run for higher office
00:48:54 --> 00:49:00 i think it's just a tricky dynamic but uh one of the pieces i mentioned in my
00:49:00 --> 00:49:07 essay was a texas tribunal about jasmine crockett and james talarrico and how
00:49:07 --> 00:49:09 their churches had formed them,
00:49:10 --> 00:49:15 but it talks about jasmine who jasmine crockett was the house rep who ran against
00:49:15 --> 00:49:20 james talarrico and lost but still had a pretty good showing but in her church
00:49:20 --> 00:49:24 you know she is running for elected office and in her church there's a lot of
00:49:24 --> 00:49:27 political messaging and even in the.
00:49:28 --> 00:49:33 You know the hallway outside the sanctuary they were doing voter drives voter
00:49:33 --> 00:49:38 registration drives you know and that feels like an especially you know.
00:49:40 --> 00:49:43 Questionable mixing of politics and religion right there.
00:49:44 --> 00:49:51 But then you also have the pastor is running for to take Jasmine Crockett's seat.
00:49:51 --> 00:49:56 So you have the pastor who is running for elected office, who is also sharing
00:49:56 --> 00:50:02 political messaging from the pulpit, who is also running voter drives in the lobby of the church.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:08 That seems like a big mess, you know, and that's the kind of stuff where,
00:50:09 --> 00:50:16 there's just too much intermingling of politics and religion i it's it's hard
00:50:16 --> 00:50:22 for me to imagine like the what the prophetic voice of the church if they're
00:50:22 --> 00:50:23 if they're going to speak out against,
00:50:24 --> 00:50:29 you know the right which is is you know totally fine you know if you're going
00:50:29 --> 00:50:32 to speak about injustice and things happening on the right but now just it just
00:50:32 --> 00:50:34 has this completely different,
00:50:35 --> 00:50:40 message to it it just comes across as partisan campaigning it's not prophetic
00:50:40 --> 00:50:44 because now it's like oh well this is a church that is we're all working to
00:50:44 --> 00:50:51 elect our our pastor to be good the democratic uh representative of the house
00:50:51 --> 00:50:54 you know and so yeah that's another dynamic in there too,
00:50:56 --> 00:51:02 in kind of talking with all this what is though the image of what it means to actually be prophetic.
00:51:05 --> 00:51:10 Yeah, I think, you know, I think at the end of my piece, I talked about Martin
00:51:10 --> 00:51:15 Luther King, who is what a lot of people think of as just, you know,
00:51:15 --> 00:51:19 the ultimate example of being prophetic and for a good reason.
00:51:20 --> 00:51:23 You know, he spoke truth to power in ways that were uncomfortable.
00:51:24 --> 00:51:27 He definitely, I mean, he paid the ultimate price eventually,
00:51:27 --> 00:51:33 but also just during his ministry, all kinds of threats and a real cost.
00:51:34 --> 00:51:39 But it was a righteous cause, and he
00:51:39 --> 00:51:43 spoke truth of power even when it was uncomfortable, even to his own side.
00:51:43 --> 00:51:50 What I talked about was Martin Luther King, right after he's achieved all this
00:51:50 --> 00:51:54 success with President Johnson,
00:51:54 --> 00:52:02 LBJ has ushered in the civil rights legislation, landmark legislation that is
00:52:02 --> 00:52:04 opening awkwardly tunes.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:14 It really is justice, you know, it is codifying, you know, equality in the full
00:52:14 --> 00:52:18 expression of what Martin Luther King was trying to bring about.
00:52:18 --> 00:52:24 And at the same time within a few years at the same time the Vietnam War is
00:52:24 --> 00:52:31 happening and the Vietnam War there are casualties lining up there are stories about you know.
00:52:33 --> 00:52:37 What's happening in Vietnam in our name the,
00:52:39 --> 00:52:44 All kinds of things that you would view as unchristian, you know,
00:52:44 --> 00:52:47 as far as some of the atrocities going on over there.
00:52:48 --> 00:52:57 And it's war, you know, and it's all kinds of things that King thought was objectionable.
00:52:57 --> 00:53:04 And he said so. And he spoke out about that too. He spoke out against LBJ,
00:53:05 --> 00:53:11 the man who had just years before signed in landmark legislation that was the
00:53:11 --> 00:53:15 culmination of his dream, of his vision.
00:53:16 --> 00:53:19 Yeah, but that's what it looks like to be prophetic.
00:53:21 --> 00:53:25 It doesn't matter if it's your side, the other side, your party,
00:53:25 --> 00:53:34 the other party, you speak out, and even when it has a real cost to it.
00:53:34 --> 00:53:39 And I think MLK, we admire him for so many reasons, but I think that's a huge part of it too.
00:53:39 --> 00:53:46 He also spoke out against the Vietnam War and what was happening and spoke out
00:53:46 --> 00:53:52 against the Johnson administration, which just shows his character.
00:53:52 --> 00:53:59 It shows that he was willing to say that. And so what I also mentioned was,
00:53:59 --> 00:54:06 you can think about a way, what if MLK had run for office? What did he had run for USA?
00:54:06 --> 00:54:15 I'm well aware that MLK's church, Raphael Warnock is now the senator for Georgia.
00:54:15 --> 00:54:24 But if MLK had taken that path, is he going to be as willing to speak out against the president?
00:54:24 --> 00:54:29 He may have bills he needs to pass. He may have constituencies.
00:54:30 --> 00:54:36 There may be military contractors in his district. He may have all kinds of
00:54:36 --> 00:54:40 stakeholders and interest groups and people vying for his attention.
00:54:40 --> 00:54:44 Is he going to be able to to speak out against that
00:54:44 --> 00:54:47 is he going to have the same prophetic voice you know
00:54:47 --> 00:54:50 maybe but it's also likely
00:54:50 --> 00:54:53 he that would be just too much for any person
00:54:53 --> 00:54:56 um you know so that's why you
00:54:56 --> 00:55:01 know i don't i don't think pastors and politicians mix so yeah i would say mlk
00:55:01 --> 00:55:06 is just a great example not just for what he did as far as civil rights but
00:55:06 --> 00:55:13 also what he did as far as speaking truth to power no matter who it was hmm.
00:55:16 --> 00:55:21 Well, I would love to continue this conversation. I have to have a heart out.
00:55:21 --> 00:55:25 But if people want to learn more, where should they go?
00:55:27 --> 00:55:30 Yeah, they can find me on Substack, Ryan's Boring Book Club.
00:55:31 --> 00:55:37 I talk about books and sometimes have occasional author interviews and also
00:55:37 --> 00:55:39 talk about stuff like this.
00:55:40 --> 00:55:44 Well, Ryan, this was great. I do want to have you back at some point.
00:55:45 --> 00:55:50 But this was a good conversation and I think at some point we also need to just
00:55:50 --> 00:55:54 talk a little bit more about what does it look like to be prophetic because
00:55:54 --> 00:55:58 I think there's just a lot of confusion all around and,
00:55:59 --> 00:56:05 we need to really kind of realize what that looks like yeah absolutely,
00:56:06 --> 00:56:09 alright take care alright you too.
00:56:41 --> 00:56:48 As usual, I'm always curious to know what you are thinking, what you thought about what Ryan said.
00:56:49 --> 00:56:53 I wish I had time to have had him stay on a little bit longer.
00:56:54 --> 00:56:57 Unfortunately, I had that. This is one of those weird days where I actually
00:56:57 --> 00:56:59 had back-to-back interviews.
00:56:59 --> 00:57:03 So I was the one that was kind of needed a hard out.
00:57:04 --> 00:57:09 So I hope I can get him back on to chat sometime in the near future. But...
00:57:11 --> 00:57:17 Feel free to share your opinions, and you can do that by sending me an email
00:57:17 --> 00:57:20 at churchinmaineatsubstack.com.
00:57:20 --> 00:57:28 I do post these sometimes on my Substack, and so also feel free to leave a comment
00:57:28 --> 00:57:32 there when this ends up on Substack.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:39 I will include links to both of the essays that he wrote, And I'm also going
00:57:39 --> 00:57:47 to include a third one from Ryan that I think it's sort of apropos to what we're talking about.
00:57:47 --> 00:57:56 It's also kind of apropos to this evening. I'm recording this on May 21st.
00:57:56 --> 00:58:01 This actually happens to be the last, this happens to be the evening where we
00:58:01 --> 00:58:05 will have the last episode of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.
00:58:05 --> 00:58:09 Um and back
00:58:09 --> 00:58:13 in february ryan wrote an article called uh that had the title don't make uh
00:58:13 --> 00:58:18 colbert a free speech martyr um and i think it's kind of like i said fitting
00:58:18 --> 00:58:28 um and i say that knowing that i think stephen colbert can be very funny i actually appreciate his um,
00:58:29 --> 00:58:32 deep faith. He is a Catholic by nature.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:38 But I will also say I do agree with some of the criticisms that Ryan brings
00:58:38 --> 00:58:43 up about that kind of relate to what we're talking about here.
00:58:43 --> 00:58:49 So I will include that article, make of it what you will, but that will be also
00:58:49 --> 00:58:51 included in the show notes.
00:58:52 --> 00:58:56 Also, when it comes to this podcast, if you want to learn more,
00:58:56 --> 00:58:59 if you want to listen to past episodes, or even donate.
00:58:59 --> 00:59:07 You can go to churchinmain.org, and you can also go to churchinmain.substack
00:59:07 --> 00:59:09 to read related articles.
00:59:09 --> 00:59:13 I have two new ones that just came up recently.
00:59:14 --> 00:59:21 The first one is on the crisis of ecclesiology in mainline Protestant churches,
00:59:21 --> 00:59:27 and then I have a new one up that just came up maybe on the 16th of May,
00:59:27 --> 00:59:29 and then I have one that just went up a few days ago,
00:59:29 --> 00:59:40 kind of giving some thoughts about the recent Louisiana primary where Senator
00:59:40 --> 00:59:42 Bill Cassidy, who is a Republican,
00:59:43 --> 00:59:50 lost in that primary, he came in third, and relating the kind of context between
00:59:50 --> 00:59:54 politicians and pastors about being brave.
00:59:54 --> 01:00:01 So, you can check those out by going to churchandmain.substack.com.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:10 And also, like I said, I do tend to put the podcast episodes,
01:00:10 --> 01:00:14 they show up usually a little bit later than when they show up on Podbean,
01:00:14 --> 01:00:16 but they do show up there.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:26 And you can also become a paying subscriber when you go on Substack and make a donation there.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:30 I don't put anything behind a paywall partially just because.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:36 I know for a lot of people, especially these days, if you can't afford something,
01:00:36 --> 01:00:40 it's just hard when there's a lot of good stuff and then you have to have another paywall.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:45 And then, you know, especially on Substack, there seems to be 10 million good
01:00:45 --> 01:00:48 Substacks and you want to read them all, but then you can't read half of them
01:00:48 --> 01:00:51 because you got to pay a subscription.
01:00:51 --> 01:00:57 So the becoming a paying subscriber, it's voluntary.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:03 I would love if you did, but you don't have to. but just to let you know.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:08 Also, there is a link in the show notes if you want to make a one-time donation
01:01:08 --> 01:01:15 and a link if you want to have any new episode end up in your email inbox.
01:01:16 --> 01:01:20 I hope that you will remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite
01:01:20 --> 01:01:24 podcast app that actually allows others to find this podcast.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 So that's it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders,
01:01:29 --> 01:01:32 your host. As I like to say, thank you so much for listening.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:38 Take care, everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.