In this episode of Church and Main, Ryan Self, a gay Christian from Austin, Texas, discusses LGBTQ inclusion in church communities. Ryan shares his journey from a conservative background to more affirming spaces, highlighting the pitfalls of churches that claim inclusivity yet fail to embody it. We discuss the balance between activism and faith, critiques of superficial inclusivity, and the need for authentic dialogue that honors diverse perspectives.
Suggested Reading and Listening:
With ‘allies’ like these, who needs adversaries?
God and the Gay Christian (Matthew Vines)
How the Gay Rights Movement Radicalized and Lost Its Way (Andrew Sullivan)
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 In this episode of Church and Main, we look at how inclusive churches can do
00:00:06 --> 00:00:13 more harm to LGBTQ Christians than good at times. That's coming up.
00:00:14 --> 00:00:40 Music.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:45 Hello, and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:45 --> 00:00:47 intersection of faith, politics, and culture.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:49 I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:50 --> 00:00:54 So, it was about 10 years ago that the church where I serve,
00:00:54 --> 00:00:55 which is First Christian Church of St.
00:00:55 --> 00:01:00 Paul, in St. Paul, Minnesota, became an open and affirming congregation.
00:01:01 --> 00:01:07 Now, what that means is that it is a congregation that openly welcomes LGBTQ
00:01:07 --> 00:01:12 people into the full life of the church, and that includes into leadership,
00:01:13 --> 00:01:21 and that includes into being pastor, of which, as a out gay person, I am the lead pastor.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:27 Now, over the years, I've been thankful that people can come to this church
00:01:27 --> 00:01:32 and know that they'll be accepted and know that they won't be judged because of their sexuality.
00:01:33 --> 00:01:38 And as I said earlier, because I'm gay myself, there is a lot of good in having
00:01:38 --> 00:01:40 churches that can say that publicly.
00:01:42 --> 00:01:44 Now, saying all of that.
00:01:45 --> 00:01:53 Can churches that are inclusive sometimes be detrimental to LGBTQ Christians
00:01:53 --> 00:01:56 and to that movement as a whole?
00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 About a month ago, I read an article on Substack and it had a very provocative title.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:06 With allies like these, who needs adversaries?
00:02:07 --> 00:02:14 And in that article, the writer shares their time at an inclusive congregation in Texas.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:20 And how it at times failed to live up to being inclusive, not necessarily towards
00:02:20 --> 00:02:26 LGBTQ people, but in how they acted and basically even how they acted as Christians.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:35 I found that article fascinating. And so I wanted to talk to the author and
00:02:35 --> 00:02:37 that author is Ryan self.
00:02:37 --> 00:02:42 He is a young gay Christian who lives in Austin, Texas.
00:02:43 --> 00:02:48 And so in this episode, I'm chatting with Ryan about his time at this congregation
00:02:48 --> 00:02:52 and how at times the drive,
00:02:53 --> 00:03:00 to become inclusive may actually hurt the very people that these congregations seek to welcome.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:04 Now, I know up front that this is probably going to be a very provocative,
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 and it might be even a divisive episode for some.
00:03:09 --> 00:03:15 But I think that Ryan's voice is one that the movement, especially for wider
00:03:15 --> 00:03:22 inclusion of LGBTQ people in the life of the church, that we need to hear is important.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:28 So, I hope that you will please join me in this conversation with Ryan Self.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:46 Music.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 So welcome to the podcast ryan i wanted to
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 start off by um getting to to know
00:03:52 --> 00:03:55 a little bit about you your faith journey um and probably
00:03:55 --> 00:03:58 within the faith journey also kind of your coming out
00:03:58 --> 00:04:05 story um so uh just to know a little bit more about who you are sure of course
00:04:05 --> 00:04:10 uh i am thrilled to be on the podcast this is actually my first podcast interview
00:04:10 --> 00:04:15 so appreciate the opportunity um yeah So I grew up in West Texas,
00:04:16 --> 00:04:17 Lubbock, Texas, be specific.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:23 So pretty conservative, conservative area. Grew up in the Churches of Christ.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:28 Not sure how familiar your listeners might be, but it's, you know,
00:04:28 --> 00:04:29 Protestant, evangelical.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:34 It's maybe a distant cousin of Southern Baptist. There's some similarities there.
00:04:35 --> 00:04:37 Obviously, some differences as well, but overall.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:43 I was just going to say also cousins of the, I'm ordained into disciples of Christ.
00:04:43 --> 00:04:48 So we're basically in the same family, cousins.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:52 Okay, great. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, conservative, Protestant,
00:04:52 --> 00:04:56 evangelical, you know, deep in the Bible belt.
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 My dad is an elder at the church.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:05 Growing up, you know, we were there every Sunday, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night.
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 Church was a big part of. my growing up
00:05:09 --> 00:05:13 faith has always been important to me it still is after
00:05:13 --> 00:05:16 i left lubbock i went to abilene christian
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 university which is also a truth of christ school um lots
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 of family members my parents met church christ school i have
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 relatives aunts uncles cousins just kind
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 of what we did so uh my you know
00:05:29 --> 00:05:33 church of christ background my conservative faith background uh
00:05:33 --> 00:05:36 of course very much a part of who i am um
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 even though i'm not really a part of that world as
00:05:39 --> 00:05:42 much anymore um but it's still you know
00:05:42 --> 00:05:45 the people and places and memories i have
00:05:45 --> 00:05:50 you know deep affection for and still continue you know to be part of things
00:05:50 --> 00:05:56 in some way um so after graduating so actually let me back up a bit so while
00:05:56 --> 00:06:01 i was at you know christian college adland christian university is when I really
00:06:01 --> 00:06:02 started to come to terms with mom,
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 with sexuality, you know, being gay.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:08 I think at the time I probably would have described it as, you know,
00:06:08 --> 00:06:13 things like subtraction, more of a struggle, you know, but.
00:06:14 --> 00:06:16 Uh unfortunately part of my journey is also you know
00:06:16 --> 00:06:20 i was went to a form of conversion therapy you
00:06:20 --> 00:06:23 know for about a year uh you know but i've i've
00:06:23 --> 00:06:27 been able to do past that overcome that that's part of my story but not the
00:06:27 --> 00:06:33 whole thing um so yeah now i live in austin texas i have for the past 10 years
00:06:33 --> 00:06:40 and so the past few years have been a part of you know more affirming uh or not I'm more affirming,
00:06:40 --> 00:06:46 just straight up affirming churches, but also naturally leads itself to just
00:06:46 --> 00:06:47 being around more progressive,
00:06:47 --> 00:06:49 more progressive faith expressions.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:56 So I kind of live in this tension between a pretty conservative upbringing and
00:06:56 --> 00:07:02 then now my family or friends and those I'm around with are more on the progressive end.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:09 So I feel like I can kind of see both groups and appreciate what both bring to the table.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 Um, but yeah, that's, that's part of my faith journey.
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 And so during that whole time, I've always been, you know, church has been a
00:07:16 --> 00:07:21 big part of who I am and a part I want to, a big part of my life and faith and
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 Jesus and Christian and it has been, you know, throughout that whole time.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:26 So yeah, that's a little bit about me.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:32 Yeah. I think one of the reasons I was interested in interviewing you is because
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 I think our journeys are somewhat similar.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:40 I came from, I would say, a Black church slash evangelical background.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:47 And also, I think I came out in my mid-20s.
00:07:47 --> 00:07:52 And so it's always been, for me.
00:07:54 --> 00:07:58 A tension, especially because I'm in more progressive circles now,
00:07:59 --> 00:08:03 between honoring—I'm not someone that just kind of discounts my past,
00:08:03 --> 00:08:08 that there's—I feel like that past still has something that has shaped who I am.
00:08:09 --> 00:08:16 And, um, and so it's always been a tension between that the past were my past
00:08:16 --> 00:08:20 and then my present, and also how some people view the past.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:24 And that's actually what we will get at in this article.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:29 Um, and you wrote an article for, for Baptist press that was originally on your
00:08:29 --> 00:08:34 substack that's called, with allies like these, who meets adversaries?
00:08:34 --> 00:08:35 And the allies is in quotes.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:41 And so that is probably my first question because the whole point of the, you know,
00:08:42 --> 00:08:46 of allies is usually that there's someone that is working with you,
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 helping you, being along the journey.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:56 And a lot of your article is kind of dealing with what you felt in a church that you were a part of.
00:08:56 --> 00:09:02 So what led you to think the allies were kind of not really allies?
00:09:03 --> 00:09:10 Sure. So I wrote this sub-stack piece that it seems like it's gotten some good
00:09:10 --> 00:09:14 attention. And so So most recently with the Baptist News Global that went up this morning.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:22 But yeah, for about two years, I was the first affirming church that I was a part of here in Austin.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 I was very involved. I was there every Sunday.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 Most Sundays that I could be there, I was part of the children's ministry.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:37 I mean, I was invested in this church. And, uh, you know, I,
00:09:37 --> 00:09:41 I very quickly felt like something was just a bit off, you know,
00:09:41 --> 00:09:45 I'm just, uh, part of the things that I share, uh, in this article,
00:09:45 --> 00:09:51 you know, the fact that, you know, last, last summer they threw a drag show,
00:09:51 --> 00:09:56 uh, at the church in, in the church building, um, you know, marketed as,
00:09:56 --> 00:10:00 uh, drag me to church, drag extravaganza, biblical proportions.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:07 You know, it feels intentionally provocative, you know, like we're trying to
00:10:07 --> 00:10:15 inject the culture wars into the church because they don't necessarily feel more helpful.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 And you have board members sharing pretty
00:10:18 --> 00:10:23 incendiary uh social media posts i mean not just kind of your your typical stuff
00:10:23 --> 00:10:27 you know stuff like in the hours after the first trump assassination attempt
00:10:27 --> 00:10:33 saying things like political violence is the most american of all values uh
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 you know pretty intense stuff and.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:43 So I shared about some of those experiences and how they can be deeply alienating,
00:10:43 --> 00:10:48 not just alienating to conservatives and moderates, but also just alienating
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 to liberals and progressives.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:54 People left this church over the drag show.
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 And, you know, this is a pretty progressive church. It's a church that,
00:10:58 --> 00:11:06 you know, markets itself as inclusive and affirming and LGBTQ friendly at every opportunity.
00:11:06 --> 00:11:10 And so, you know, the people that are leaving, they're not leaving because they oppose inclusion.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:18 They're leaving because it seems like that a form of ideological activism has
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 taken the place of Jesus.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 And I, you know, I don't say that lightly, but, you know, recently the pastor,
00:11:27 --> 00:11:33 another part of my piece is the pastor posted on Facebook, don't trust in Christianity.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:40 That's a video that's on the church's Facebook page where the pastor is just
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 kind of flippantly saying, you know, I don't trust Christianity much,
00:11:43 --> 00:11:49 which is pretty stunning to hear from any pastor.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:55 But also, you know, the damage that does to, you know,
00:11:55 --> 00:12:01 a church that basically has a rainbow pride flag as part of its logo that is
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 broadcasting to the world, hey, we're affirming, we're progressive.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:06 We are LGBTQ friendly.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:10 And at the same time saying, don't trust in Christianity.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:17 Well, that just plays into the idea that you can't be both gay and Christian,
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 that you have to give one of these things up.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:27 In order to, you know, become affirming and to embrace LGBTQ people,
00:12:27 --> 00:12:32 you have to step away from Christianity.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:37 And that is just such a toxic, you know, message that is the opposite of what,
00:12:37 --> 00:12:42 you know, I think a lot of people would hope to send down to the world.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:47 And so not only do I share some experiences with that,
00:12:47 --> 00:12:52 I think they're just driving people away from the cause of LGBTQ inclusion and
00:12:52 --> 00:12:58 support for same-sex marriage, but also I wanted to share some examples of groups
00:12:58 --> 00:13:00 I think are doing it right, groups that are...
00:13:01 --> 00:13:09 Groups like the Reformation Project with Matthew Bynes, who is trying to equip
00:13:09 --> 00:13:13 gay and LGBTQ Christians to engage,
00:13:13 --> 00:13:19 to make arguments based on scripture, to root their faith journey in scripture,
00:13:19 --> 00:13:21 that they can share that with others.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:24 You know not just shouting people down not just
00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 being in arguments online not just
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 shutting people out of your life but you know really trying to engage with people
00:13:31 --> 00:13:35 where they are you know groups like centerpiece which is led by you know so
00:13:35 --> 00:13:41 two dear friends uh karen king and sally gary uh you know i've i've known sally
00:13:41 --> 00:13:46 gary for years i actually i first got to know her at acu um you know,
00:13:46 --> 00:13:53 just the model of grace and patience and understanding and meeting people where they are.
00:13:55 --> 00:14:01 I'm not trying to needlessly offend or alienate people, but trying to beckon
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03 as many people as they can.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:09 You know, the church I'm at now is called Restore Austin. It's led by Zach Lambert.
00:14:09 --> 00:14:13 That's another example of, you know, a church that I think is,
00:14:14 --> 00:14:15 again, just doing it right.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:20 And you they chose not they were they're approached about the drag show and
00:14:20 --> 00:14:25 they said no we're not gonna we don't think that's that's really a good choice
00:14:25 --> 00:14:29 for us uh you know for a number of reasons uh.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:37 And it just that kind of different approach is just evident in all facets of
00:14:37 --> 00:14:44 the church and one thing that i note is you have restore austin and you have
00:14:44 --> 00:14:48 the the church that's hosting drag shows, and you can just see the numbers.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:52 The church is hosting drag shows. They've been losing numbers.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:53 They've been having financial struggles.
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 They've got people that are leaving people that are still invested but
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 they're leaving because they're saying hey this is just not what
00:15:00 --> 00:15:03 we want this doesn't feel like
00:15:03 --> 00:15:06 it's really rooted in jesus or christianity or scripture anything
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 it feels like it's just rooted in in activism and people
00:15:09 --> 00:15:12 are leaving that church and they're coming over to restore austin or
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15 other places and so this is the same zip code
00:15:15 --> 00:15:19 so you kind of have this example of you
00:15:19 --> 00:15:21 know uh you know
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 what do lgbtq christians actually want well
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 they want the real thing they want they want the scripture they
00:15:27 --> 00:15:32 want the church that is you know about scripture
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 in the bible and the faith practices that
00:15:35 --> 00:15:40 have been around for centuries um so yeah that's just kind of a general overview
00:15:40 --> 00:15:45 and we can take it any direction you want yeah yo one of the first things i
00:15:45 --> 00:15:52 wanted to ask kind of a i guess maybe playing devil's advocate here is with the drag show,
00:15:52 --> 00:16:01 people would say maybe we see things like Drag Queen's Story Hour, things like that.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:08 So I guess maybe the question would be, what's so wrong about having a drag show in church?
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 And what would your answer be to that?
00:16:13 --> 00:16:17 Sure. I, you know, there's, there's the marketing of the drag show there,
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 you know, there's the drag me a church, drag stravaganza, biblical portions.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 You know, whenever you're talking about LGBTQ and affirmation,
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 there's a group that's going to be offended no matter what.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:32 It's going to be provocative to some group of people, no matter what.
00:16:32 --> 00:16:38 Okay. So, you know, of course you can't just make that the sole reason of your decision.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:42 But I think when you talk about needlessly provoking people,
00:16:43 --> 00:16:44 that's a concern of mine.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:52 Also, the fact that, rightly or wrongly, here in Texas, if you have a drag show,
00:16:52 --> 00:16:58 you have to label it as 18 plus. It's adults only.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:02 That's the law. Like it or not, that's just the reality on the ground.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:07 So if you're marketing a drag show at a church, you are marketing an adults
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 only event in the sanctuary.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 And that's just going to come across. Go ahead.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:19 I would just say, and to clarify there, it has to be labeled 18 plus because that's Texas law.
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22 That is Texas law. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 So that's, you know, that's like it or not, love it or hate it.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 That's just, it is what it is. And so when you're posting on
00:17:29 --> 00:17:33 social media about you know these words
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 and phrases that are going to come across to
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 people as just provocative like
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 we're we're just we're out there to thumb our
00:17:42 --> 00:17:45 noses at you know conservatives and
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 moderates you know we're taking culture war issues
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50 and we're conducting them into the church you know
00:17:50 --> 00:17:53 that's just uh you know
00:17:53 --> 00:17:57 you can see the people people laugh families laugh and again
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 we're talking about lgbtq inclusion you know affirming churches
00:18:01 --> 00:18:05 they they come to decisions that you
00:18:05 --> 00:18:09 know families may may leave over the decision to become affirming that's that's
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 just the nature of it you know any church is going to lose people no matter
00:18:12 --> 00:18:16 what but when it comes to something where it's like what did we gain out of
00:18:16 --> 00:18:25 that you know one of the the pushbacks that i've perceived is, you know, well.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:31 The, you know, when at the end of the show, you know, people were near people
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 were, people were very emotional.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37 And, you know, I can appreciate that to a degree, but I don't,
00:18:37 --> 00:18:43 is that how we make decisions? Is that how we discern what a good course of
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 action is, is like what emotion it stirs up?
00:18:45 --> 00:18:52 You know, are we, are we doing that instead of, you know, what is the way of
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 Jesus telling us? What is the best for the church?
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 How do we see, are we helping or hurting the cause of inclusion?
00:18:59 --> 00:19:03 Are we doing things that are needlessly alienating?
00:19:03 --> 00:19:07 I think another thing I would mention is,
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 You know, being a part of these other groups like Centerpiece and whatever.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:20 You know, at the conference last year, I got to meet some folks from West Texas,
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 from Amarillo, and they're at a more conservative church.
00:19:23 --> 00:19:27 There's a gay couple there that's part of the conservative church, non-affirming,
00:19:27 --> 00:19:32 but they worked with the eldership,
00:19:33 --> 00:19:43 with the leadership to create a space for gay Christians just as a place to belong.
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 It's non-affirming. They worked very close.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:52 They built relationships with that church. They want it, but they were able
00:19:52 --> 00:19:57 to build a place where gay Christians in this very conservative area are able to come.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:05 Now, drag shows in Austin, Texas, that's great that some drag performers are
00:20:05 --> 00:20:10 able to find yet another progressive audience to perform in front of.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 But what about the gay people in Amarillo?
00:20:14 --> 00:20:17 What about the gay people in the rural areas? What about the gay people in those
00:20:17 --> 00:20:22 conservative churches where they may not even have a place to belong,
00:20:22 --> 00:20:27 and the people there around are seeing, you know,
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 drag shows at church, and it's just setting off alarm bells.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:36 So I wish that sometimes with these decisions, we were thinking,
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 like, how will this impact those in the rural areas?
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 How will this impact, you know, Christians, gay Christians and conservative
00:20:45 --> 00:20:48 and red areas? So I guess that's how I would respond to that question.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:56 And you talked about that in your article of how sometimes people will make
00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 fun of those conservative areas.
00:20:59 --> 00:21:04 And you talked about an experience of your parents visiting.
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 Coming from Lubbock, and,
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 obviously coming from a more conservative probably not just
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 a conservative area but more conservative church could you kind of expound
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 a little bit about that and what what that meant to you and
00:21:18 --> 00:21:21 this was at your prior churches yes so this is at the the
00:21:21 --> 00:21:25 prior church the drag church um yeah so
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 like again i'm from lubbock i'm a conservative area my dad isn't over there
00:21:29 --> 00:21:35 you know for about two years i was at this church and every time that i would
00:21:35 --> 00:21:41 mention i was from lubbock the response is oh i'm sure you're glad to get out
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 of there you know just that.
00:21:44 --> 00:21:52 Condescending sneering attitude um just this like assumption that everyone from that area is,
00:21:53 --> 00:22:02 how it came across to me you know that you know why oh you obviously ran away from there Because, oh,
00:22:03 --> 00:22:06 you know, and this will be the first time I would meet.
00:22:06 --> 00:22:10 This isn't like some, I've never known for a long time.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:18 This is the ministry staff. This is the pastor. This is just so many interactions like that.
00:22:19 --> 00:22:24 And, of course, it's off-putting to me. I don't love that.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:29 And it's, is that welcoming? I would say no.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:37 And it's Sunday mornings, you normally hear there's a joke about Trump or Ron
00:22:37 --> 00:22:42 DeSantis, or they're talking about people from red states, not just, you know.
00:22:44 --> 00:22:51 Pronouncing a policy or a program that's antithetical to Christianity or the
00:22:51 --> 00:22:55 likes of Jesus, but just mocking people.
00:22:55 --> 00:23:00 You know, one time I remember we had a rabbi, a Jewish rabbi come,
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 and he was kind of sharing about, you know, that faith practice.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:11 And they put up on the screen a picture of the, one of the pastors put up on
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 the screen a picture of the yarmulke.
00:23:14 --> 00:23:18 Like, what does this symbolize? What does this mean? and
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 the next slide they showed was a
00:23:21 --> 00:23:28 red yarmulke with make america great again on it as a joke was saying and then
00:23:28 --> 00:23:33 what do you think this means you know as a joke but it was an uncomfortable
00:23:33 --> 00:23:38 moment to me at least and it was just like so now it's not just that we're,
00:23:39 --> 00:23:41 We're denouncing Trump's policies.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 Now we're just mocking Trump's objectives.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:49 And so there was just that attitude just throughout the church.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:56 And, you know, my parents come. They're from Lubbock. My dad's an elder at a conservative church.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 And when they would come and they would visit and they would come to this church,
00:24:00 --> 00:24:02 you know, I mean, I think hats off to them.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 You know, they definitely didn't agree with everything that was being preached
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 that Sunday, but they were there.
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 And I would just always be nervous about, you know, what are they hearing?
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 What, please, please don't, don't mock conservatives today.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:23 Please don't mock those who are religiously or politically, you know, on the right.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 Um but yeah it's that kind of
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 thing where again this place was
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 is alienating to conservatives and moderates and
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 the thing is like it or not you know
00:24:35 --> 00:24:40 support for same-sex marriage support for lgbtq people it's going to require
00:24:40 --> 00:24:46 support from conservatives so the whole time we're just alienating and dividing
00:24:46 --> 00:24:52 and thumbing our noses at them and being provocative that's not helping the
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 cause of same-sex marriage or the cause of LGBTQ inclusion.
00:24:56 --> 00:25:02 So yeah, that was another example of ways that this church is just, it's naked.
00:25:04 --> 00:25:11 So one of the things that you talked about earlier is that you heard this actually
00:25:11 --> 00:25:14 from the pastor about not trusting Christianity.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:25 And that's something I've heard from other pastors as well. And I guess my question
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 about that is, why do you think that is?
00:25:28 --> 00:25:33 Why do you think people want to just kind of reject the entire faith?
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 I mean, part of the whole point of trying to be an inclusive church is to show
00:25:40 --> 00:25:46 that there is another way, that it doesn't have to be all exclusive or rejectionist,
00:25:46 --> 00:25:52 but it almost seems that they're kind of practicing what they are saying that they are against.
00:25:55 --> 00:25:59 Yeah, that's a good question. I don't, I don't know if they have a good answer.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:05 I think if this, you know, this pastor, I've heard him say some things that are similar.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:11 I think he and others would say, well, I, I love Jesus.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:16 You know, the character of Jesus. I'm not a fan of the rest of this stuff.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:21 Which to me it feels like well
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24 yeah it's kind of a package deal you know
00:26:24 --> 00:26:30 it's it's the gospels are obviously central but there's other books you know
00:26:30 --> 00:26:35 just picking and choosing is obviously not part of christianity but you know
00:26:35 --> 00:26:41 i i don't i don't know why i think i think there's a uh So there's a disdain,
00:26:41 --> 00:26:45 more than disdain, that's a contempt for Paul,
00:26:45 --> 00:26:50 just because of the ways that Paul has been interpreted in speaking about,
00:26:51 --> 00:26:57 you know, those verses have been used to argue against LGBTQ inclusion for women
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 in the church or what have you.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:04 And so there's just kind of, instead of really engaging with what scriptures
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 say and coming to a new understanding, it's like, we're just going to throw the whole thing out.
00:27:07 --> 00:27:11 You know we're just gonna throw paul out we're gonna throw the rest of the stuff out.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 There's you know problematic stuff in the bible in the old testament
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 we're done with that and there's just kind of a throw the baby out with the
00:27:19 --> 00:27:26 bath water attitude feels like um so there's just kind of this oh well we're
00:27:26 --> 00:27:32 done with christianity we we like jesus like what he's he said but we're we're
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 just done with the rest is is is my take on it i guess.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:59 Yeah, I think, you know, it's funny because I just interviewed a pastor from
00:27:59 --> 00:28:00 the Dallas-Fort Worth area,
00:28:01 --> 00:28:08 and he also came from an evangelical background and got involved in the emergent
00:28:08 --> 00:28:12 church about a decade, decade and a half ago.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:17 And one of the things he talked about there is about how one of the problems
00:28:17 --> 00:28:24 with that movement at times and why it ended up in some ways failing is that
00:28:24 --> 00:28:30 it really ended up basically deconstructing itself out of the church,
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 that everything was wrong, and so that at the end, you just didn't have the church.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:41 And what you're explaining sounds very familiar.
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 It's almost as if there's a kind of a deconstructing going on that then ends
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 up just kind of chucking out the baby with the bathwater.
00:28:52 --> 00:29:00 Yeah, and I would add on to that by just saying, you know, the LGBTQ Christians that I know,
00:29:00 --> 00:29:07 they've stuck with it despite everything, despite everything that's been done
00:29:07 --> 00:29:08 to them or that's happened.
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 You know, a few weeks ago, I was at a retreat as part of Centerpiece.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 I would definitely encourage your listeners to check out centerpiece.org.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:19 It's a great organization.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:23 They have a conference every year. They also have retreats throughout the year.
00:29:24 --> 00:29:29 I was able to go to one of them. There's about 25 LGBT Christians from all over
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 the country. And just the stories.
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 And you have people that have been kicked out of their churches.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:37 Some have been kicked out of their families.
00:29:38 --> 00:29:44 Just heartbreaking stories. But yet, they're still firmly committed to their faith.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:46 They're still firmly committed to
00:29:46 --> 00:29:50 Christianity. It is a huge part of their lives. It is the central thing.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:56 And so when you talk about, you know,
00:29:56 --> 00:30:05 don't trust in Christianity, it's such an affront to the face of LGBTQ Christians
00:30:05 --> 00:30:11 that have remained steadfast despite everything that's happened.
00:30:11 --> 00:30:22 I think it's a real disservice to them. And so I want to read part of the article
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 for Baptist News Global.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:31 I was able to get a few quotes from Matthew Bynes just about this phenomenon.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:35 And I think he's got some really solid insights.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:41 He's talking about the phenomenon of these churches in general.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:44 But when he says when a church becomes affirming
00:30:44 --> 00:30:47 but then proceeds to discard core christian doctrines like
00:30:47 --> 00:30:50 the bodily resurrection or the divinity of jesus it does
00:30:50 --> 00:30:54 more harm than good to lgbtq christians it
00:30:54 --> 00:30:59 also ironically reinforces the message of a non-affirming church that you cannot
00:30:59 --> 00:31:04 be gay and christian but non-affirming churches the problem is being gay but
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 when affirming churches abandon any commitment to christian orthodoxy they are
00:31:08 --> 00:31:12 effectively telling gay people that they cannot still be a Christian.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:18 It is the same spiritually deadening message in reverse, and most LGBT Christians
00:31:18 --> 00:31:22 I know would rather attend a non-affirming church that remains committed to
00:31:22 --> 00:31:26 scripture rather than an affirming church that doesn't.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:30 What matters most for LGBT Christians isn't simply whether a church becomes
00:31:30 --> 00:31:35 affirming, it's whether a church becomes affirming while remaining clearly and
00:31:35 --> 00:31:36 unapologetically Christian.
00:31:37 --> 00:31:41 I think that hits the nail on the head. And for me, anecdotally,
00:31:41 --> 00:31:46 I would say, you know, yeah, I would rather go to a non-affirming church that
00:31:46 --> 00:31:51 is still deeply rooted in Scripture than an affirming church like the one I was at.
00:31:52 --> 00:31:58 That we had just abandoned Christianity and it's now ideological activism all the way down.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:06 There's a pastor that I know in Memphis that is a pastor of Disciples of Christ congregation.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:14 That isn't officially affirming, but in its practice it pretty much is.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:21 And he has said he regularly receives a number of LGBTQ people that come,
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25 especially from other affirming churches.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:29 And when he asked, what made you decide to come here? It's kind of like,
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 well, you guys talk about Jesus here.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:39 And so that's always been fascinating to hear that, that it's okay, that's a problem.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:46 We're creating an affirming church, but we're not going to talk about Jesus at all.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:52 I mean, I think there is some truth to what Matthew is saying,
00:32:52 --> 00:32:58 that it kind of basically affirms the argument that non-affirming people have
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00 long said that you can't be gay and Christian.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05 Yeah, it's devastating.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:19 Do you think that there is this desire in some cases, in some LGBTQ churches,
00:33:19 --> 00:33:26 but other places where it's more of a putting everything into activism or maybe
00:33:26 --> 00:33:30 ideology than it is in the faith?
00:33:30 --> 00:33:33 That the faith is kind of seems like it just comes up short.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 So we're just going to put it into this because this is really what works and
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 what makes a difference.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:51 Yeah, I mean, I could see that in some places. I mean, there's a classic faith versus works.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:54 And it is very, you know, you see some of these places and they are,
00:33:54 --> 00:33:56 you know, involved in their communities.
00:33:56 --> 00:33:59 They are doing a lot of good work.
00:33:59 --> 00:34:03 I'm not saying that at all. um you
00:34:03 --> 00:34:06 know there's lots of good stuff happening as far as
00:34:06 --> 00:34:10 attending to the needs of of
00:34:10 --> 00:34:15 the community um i guess i i just feel like you know that's that's great if
00:34:15 --> 00:34:19 you want to do that and without the faith stuff well just so become a non-profit
00:34:19 --> 00:34:24 just become you know uh lgbtq friendly non-profit and and and do do that work
00:34:24 --> 00:34:28 but if you want to be a church and market yourself as a church,
00:34:28 --> 00:34:33 well you got to be a church and that means christianity
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 and scripture and all that stuff is still very
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 much a part of all um because yeah
00:34:39 --> 00:34:43 it does feel like well we we have
00:34:43 --> 00:34:50 these values about you know the poor and the marginalized um but just yeah there's
00:34:50 --> 00:34:54 that that deconstruction has happened to where that's just no longer part of
00:34:54 --> 00:34:59 it but it's like the the works of the church are still appealing.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:05 And so you get the situation where, yeah, it's kind of like a nonprofit without
00:35:05 --> 00:35:09 the meat of Christianity.
00:35:10 --> 00:35:15 And you talked a little bit, I can't remember if you talked about it here or in your substack.
00:35:16 --> 00:35:21 There was another article that you wrote about a church in Pennsylvania.
00:35:21 --> 00:35:22 I think it was in Philadelphia.
00:35:24 --> 00:35:29 The author had wrote a book about this church and it was a church that was very
00:35:29 --> 00:35:36 much geared towards social justice but how it kind of went off the rails and,
00:35:37 --> 00:35:41 I'm kind of curious, where do you kind of see the similarities between your
00:35:41 --> 00:35:47 experience at your church, your prior church in Austin, and this other church
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 that you talk about in Philadelphia?
00:35:53 --> 00:35:57 Yeah, the book is called Circle of Hope. Yes.
00:35:58 --> 00:36:03 Circle of hope i would definitely recommend it to anyone who is interested in this phenomenal,
00:36:04 --> 00:36:08 um because it it the the
00:36:08 --> 00:36:11 author eliza griswold she's a journalist uh
00:36:11 --> 00:36:14 who basically was embedded with his church for years and she
00:36:14 --> 00:36:17 got lots of access to uh the
00:36:17 --> 00:36:22 pastors and the members and it is a deep dive and it is fascinating but what
00:36:22 --> 00:36:30 happens you see this slow decline of this once thriving church where it becomes
00:36:30 --> 00:36:34 it's a kind of a collection of activists really,
00:36:35 --> 00:36:45 that start to drive the church in a certain direction and once it starts heading
00:36:45 --> 00:36:49 that way it's it's kind of like there's there's not much to stop the momentum
00:36:49 --> 00:36:54 the part of this covid covid it's a part of the story. It's just a naturally detangling.
00:36:55 --> 00:37:02 That's obviously going to impact the church, but when it comes to, you know.
00:37:04 --> 00:37:11 Not being able to separate the difference between activism and Christianity.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:15 And obviously those two can play a role together.
00:37:16 --> 00:37:22 Activism and protest and the civil rights movement and social justice.
00:37:22 --> 00:37:30 Parts of those can be all together. But it becomes this situation where you
00:37:30 --> 00:37:38 have a collection of voices are really the ones that get to be heard.
00:37:38 --> 00:37:50 And I think a big, so one of the parallels that I saw is that you have the most vocal,
00:37:50 --> 00:37:55 the most progressive voices are getting to dictate how the church is leading.
00:37:55 --> 00:37:59 I felt like I saw that at the church.
00:37:59 --> 00:38:06 And then it becomes a silencing of the sentencing voices.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:15 And once you start to sense you silencing dissent then you know it becomes this spiral where.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:19 People that aren't on board with what's going on are
00:38:19 --> 00:38:23 kind of leaving out the back door and so more and
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 more the only people that are left are with this very
00:38:26 --> 00:38:30 ideologically driven less
00:38:30 --> 00:38:33 rooted in christianity and just
00:38:33 --> 00:38:36 becomes that that cycle and so what i
00:38:36 --> 00:38:40 saw at this church that i was a part of um you
00:38:40 --> 00:38:44 know ironically enough i i wrote a
00:38:44 --> 00:38:52 review of circle of pope and in it because i saw these similarities i talked
00:38:52 --> 00:39:00 about you know briefly just an unnamed church that i felt like had replaced um you know,
00:39:00 --> 00:39:05 Christianity with ideological activism. And.
00:39:07 --> 00:39:11 You know the response from that i got a lengthy
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 text message from a board
00:39:14 --> 00:39:18 member within hours 200 plus word accusatory
00:39:18 --> 00:39:24 critical message the next day i got another message from a previous uh board
00:39:24 --> 00:39:29 member who at one point he's gay um but said maybe you should consider your
00:39:29 --> 00:39:35 feelings toward gay christians basically and to me felt like he's accusing me
00:39:35 --> 00:39:38 of internalized homophobia and this,
00:39:38 --> 00:39:41 you know, just intense backlash.
00:39:43 --> 00:39:49 Because I'm a gay Christian saying on my sub stack, an unnamed church,
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 hey, I think they're drifting away from Christianity.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 And the reaction is telling, you know?
00:39:56 --> 00:40:01 And they're kind of just proving my point that like, yeah, like dissent is just not allowed.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:05 If you're raising alarm about this, it's just not allowed.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 So there's not, you know, a chorus of voices who are able to discern,
00:40:10 --> 00:40:16 you know, what the best course of action is, how some voices may be more conservative,
00:40:16 --> 00:40:19 may be more progressive, may be more moderate, are all joined together.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:25 Let's figure this out together. It's just who is the loudest voice in the room
00:40:25 --> 00:40:30 is now dictating what the course of action is.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:36 And that just becomes a spiral. and I feel like I saw that at the church I was
00:40:36 --> 00:40:41 a part of and that was a major part of the circle of hope as well.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:52 What do you think about—I mean, because you talk about this church,
00:40:54 --> 00:40:59 and one of the things I always find interesting is to hear that sometimes I
00:40:59 --> 00:41:06 guess even I get a little wary more of the word inclusive.
00:41:09 --> 00:41:17 Because maybe to quote the Princess Bride, I don't think you know what that word means.
00:41:17 --> 00:41:21 Because I think we use it a lot, but I don't know if we always know,
00:41:21 --> 00:41:28 really try to live it out, and maybe that there is a challenge in how we live that out.
00:41:29 --> 00:41:32 And I think that you kind of talk about that in the article.
00:41:34 --> 00:41:37 And one of the things I thought was interesting is that you have a quote here
00:41:37 --> 00:41:42 from Zach Lambert that I thought was interesting.
00:41:42 --> 00:41:50 And he says, Jesus didn't just trade one exclusionary stance for another. This is what we often do.
00:41:50 --> 00:41:55 When we feel excluded, we have a tendency to exclude the excluders right back.
00:41:55 --> 00:42:00 Like, Jesus created the first truly inclusive table of all, where prostitutes
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03 and tax collectors sat next to priests and teachers of the law,
00:42:04 --> 00:42:09 a place where everyone is called to set aside their biases, take up their cross, and follow him.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:16 And I think what's interesting about that is that I sometimes wonder if we really
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19 could handle true inclusion.
00:42:22 --> 00:42:25 Because I think sometimes we don't really know what it means.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:27 That's just something I've observed.
00:42:29 --> 00:42:33 Yeah, I definitely feel that way. I remember when I went back,
00:42:34 --> 00:42:38 I thought that sermon, I posted on my, just a note on Sudsack,
00:42:38 --> 00:42:42 and I started with saying, inclusion's one of those words that I.
00:42:44 --> 00:42:48 I started to get my eyes rolling, you know? Inclusion's one of those words,
00:42:48 --> 00:42:51 I don't know what it means. When people say that word, I don't know what it means.
00:42:52 --> 00:42:56 A lot of time it feels like it's just a synonym for progressivity.
00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 You know? We are, well we're an inclusive
00:42:59 --> 00:43:04 church we're a progressive church you know we're we're we're not interested
00:43:04 --> 00:43:09 in conservatives or moderates you know we're not if you're not on board with
00:43:09 --> 00:43:17 some of those things you know uh the this particular church i they have on their website they talk about,
00:43:18 --> 00:43:27 belonging over belief and that you know belonging comes first and as we belong,
00:43:28 --> 00:43:32 you know then beliefs will follow you know beliefs beliefs are kind of secondary
00:43:32 --> 00:43:39 which there's all kind of issues i have with with that just you know it's in and of itself but,
00:43:39 --> 00:43:43 you know it's it's all about belonging and so
00:43:43 --> 00:43:46 they're saying like you know certain christian beliefs are
00:43:46 --> 00:43:49 secondary uh belonging is
00:43:49 --> 00:43:52 what's most important but in my experience
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 when i think about it it's like yeah but there
00:43:56 --> 00:44:01 you may be able to believe all kinds of things you
00:44:01 --> 00:44:05 know you may not even have to believe in the death and resurrection of jesus
00:44:05 --> 00:44:09 to church certain church leaders believe in you know some of those doctrinal
00:44:09 --> 00:44:14 statements unclear you know where they stand on directions you know where they
00:44:14 --> 00:44:20 stand on certain progressive you know ideologies what's the latest thing you know.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:25 Queers for Palestine, things like that. Like, you know where they stand.
00:44:26 --> 00:44:32 And so it's like, oh, no, it may not be Christian beliefs that we all have to
00:44:32 --> 00:44:37 ascribe to, but like, oh, there are beliefs that, like, you better not question
00:44:37 --> 00:44:39 these particular beliefs.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:44 And if you question them, belonging, it's going to be tough.
00:44:45 --> 00:44:49 You may not belong anymore. And so it's really, it's the irony of that.
00:44:49 --> 00:44:55 I mean, in my experience, you know, I was part of this dinner group that met
00:44:55 --> 00:44:58 once a month that was hosted by one of the board members at this church.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:05 And, you know, it's a place for LGBTQ Christians. And that's a wonderful environment.
00:45:05 --> 00:45:10 We're, you know, joined together in a meal every month, you know.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:15 But I would have interactions with some folks from the church.
00:45:15 --> 00:45:16 You were board members themselves.
00:45:19 --> 00:45:23 There were very, that I felt were very hostile. You know, one,
00:45:23 --> 00:45:28 I, I posted a New York times op-ed that he didn't agree with and I got several heated messages.
00:45:28 --> 00:45:33 And when I pushed back and said, now I wish you were more thoughtful how you came across online.
00:45:33 --> 00:45:37 Well, I got several more heated messages at one point saying,
00:45:37 --> 00:45:42 you know, this policing, my social media is reminiscent of a evangelical culture.
00:45:42 --> 00:45:48 All the fun you know and which is funny because it sounds like this person was
00:45:48 --> 00:45:51 also policing absolutely it's a
00:45:51 --> 00:45:57 bizarre and it's a bizarre alternate world where you can post things like,
00:45:58 --> 00:46:01 um political violence is the most american of all
00:46:01 --> 00:46:04 values and somebody someone
00:46:04 --> 00:46:07 writes shares an op-ed a new york times op-ed
00:46:07 --> 00:46:10 you don't like oh they're coming for you and if you push back
00:46:10 --> 00:46:13 you're engaging in evangelical culture
00:46:13 --> 00:46:18 it's it's bizarre um but yeah it's like is that inclusive is that welcoming
00:46:18 --> 00:46:25 is that this is a board member at that church you know um when i get that lengthy
00:46:25 --> 00:46:32 text message from the host who is also a board member you know instead of.
00:46:35 --> 00:46:41 Let's hey let's grab coffee i it sounds like you have some frustrations with
00:46:41 --> 00:46:45 this church i want to hear about them it's no you're wrong and misleading you
00:46:45 --> 00:46:48 know you are this and that and the other um,
00:46:49 --> 00:46:52 there's there's no curiosity about why you
00:46:52 --> 00:46:55 feel that way this is a straight person telling a
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 gay person uh there was
00:46:58 --> 00:47:01 nothing inappropriate or offenses about the drag show and we
00:47:01 --> 00:47:04 would be happy to do it again it's like well i you know
00:47:04 --> 00:47:07 i don't where is this conversation supposed to
00:47:07 --> 00:47:10 go from there um is that
00:47:10 --> 00:47:13 inclusive is that welcoming is that no of
00:47:13 --> 00:47:16 course not so it's it's like yeah i learned pretty
00:47:16 --> 00:47:19 quickly which beliefs you don't question um
00:47:19 --> 00:47:24 believe any number of things about jesus god whatever the bible you may not
00:47:24 --> 00:47:28 believe anything at all and that's totally fine because beliefs are secondary
00:47:28 --> 00:47:32 what's most important is belonging but just don't question the progressive beliefs
00:47:32 --> 00:47:36 that's that's we're going to get trouble and that's that that's just another
00:47:36 --> 00:47:39 example to me of how you know,
00:47:40 --> 00:47:47 yeah we it seems like we've replaced Christianity and Jesus with this ideological
00:47:47 --> 00:47:51 activism that is just a whole separate thing.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:58 Yeah. And like I said, I think, you know, looking at that quote,
00:47:58 --> 00:48:07 I think that inclusion is always going to be in some ways messy because it's going to include,
00:48:07 --> 00:48:13 it means in trying to include people that you may not always agree with and
00:48:13 --> 00:48:15 that you're trying to find.
00:48:15 --> 00:48:22 And especially within the church of how do you keep yourself together in the body?
00:48:23 --> 00:48:29 And now it doesn't mean in tolerating abuse, but it does mean how do we keep
00:48:29 --> 00:48:35 people and see people as fellow people together in Christ?
00:48:37 --> 00:48:43 And like you, I think I'm always a little wary now when I hear the word inclusive,
00:48:43 --> 00:48:47 because I don't know what you're really talking about.
00:48:47 --> 00:48:52 Because I think if we really want to be that, and I think we should,
00:48:53 --> 00:48:59 it's not going to be easy, because it never is.
00:48:59 --> 00:49:06 And that maybe that type of inclusion only really happens, and especially looking at Zach's quote,
00:49:07 --> 00:49:16 really can only happen through Christ, because we do a bad job of it all on
00:49:16 --> 00:49:22 our own, just in seeing how sometimes it's lived out.
00:49:25 --> 00:49:30 Oh yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, it's hard. I mean that like,
00:49:30 --> 00:49:33 it's not just love your neighbor. It's also love your enemy.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:40 That's hard. And that, you know, that means if you're more progressive end,
00:49:40 --> 00:49:41 you got to love the conservative.
00:49:42 --> 00:49:45 And if you're on the conservative end, you have to love the progressive. it
00:49:45 --> 00:49:50 you know you have to make space for those people in your church you can't just
00:49:50 --> 00:49:56 say well obviously we're all good fill in the blank you know and those people
00:49:56 --> 00:50:03 over there uh you know well we don't want to deal with them like no that's not how that works,
00:50:05 --> 00:50:11 um one of the things i when i do before as we wrap up is i i was actually curious
00:50:11 --> 00:50:20 if you You read the article in the New York Times by Andrew Sullivan about the gay rights movement,
00:50:20 --> 00:50:26 where it's going, some troubling signs that he's seen, and what you thought about it.
00:50:27 --> 00:50:31 Sullivan, just to kind of backfill there, has been someone I've always kind
00:50:31 --> 00:50:34 of been interested in following.
00:50:34 --> 00:50:39 I think he was someone that was central in helping me to come out,
00:50:39 --> 00:50:44 that's coming from a more, I would say, slightly conservative background,
00:50:44 --> 00:50:48 seeing someone similar and a similar person of faith.
00:50:50 --> 00:50:56 And he wrote that article. So I think he—it seems like he got some good responses from it,
00:50:56 --> 00:51:02 but I'm kind of curious what you thought about it and what do you think it means
00:51:02 --> 00:51:05 kind of for the LGBTQ movement,
00:51:05 --> 00:51:07 especially within the church? Yeah.
00:51:08 --> 00:51:12 Yeah, I so I definitely read that article and really enjoyed it.
00:51:12 --> 00:51:16 I'm a big fan of Andrew Sullivan. I know I read a sub stack each week.
00:51:17 --> 00:51:22 I was pleasantly surprised that they published it, but it was it's a good read.
00:51:22 --> 00:51:23 I would encourage anyone.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:29 It's a long read. It is just kind of in unpacks where things might have gone wrong.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:33 But yeah, it is kind of a lot of the same things of.
00:51:34 --> 00:51:39 You know i you know i was fairly young when andrew sullivan was doing his you
00:51:39 --> 00:51:45 know we can call activism work um but andrew sullivan you know he wrote i believe a book,
00:51:46 --> 00:51:50 arguing both sides and a book of like here are the best arguments for gay marriage
00:51:50 --> 00:51:57 here are the best arguments against it you know it's it's a very different mindset
00:51:57 --> 00:52:02 from just shutting people down you know if you don't agree we're going to shut
00:52:02 --> 00:52:03 you down we're going to ostracize you.
00:52:05 --> 00:52:12 Um you know it is that listening and engaging with people on the other side it is to to,
00:52:13 --> 00:52:16 andrew sullivan's telling you know the gay rights
00:52:16 --> 00:52:19 movement for or a good
00:52:19 --> 00:52:22 chunk of time leading up to a burger fell you know obviously there's
00:52:22 --> 00:52:26 always you know you got radicals in every group but
00:52:26 --> 00:52:29 for the most part it's a lot of you know
00:52:29 --> 00:52:32 hey we're just people too we're like trump we want to
00:52:32 --> 00:52:35 we want what you have we're we're gonna align under
00:52:35 --> 00:52:38 the banner of like we're all americans we're all christian you know
00:52:38 --> 00:52:43 um you know to use
00:52:43 --> 00:52:47 that word inclusive you know we're we're all included in this we want to be
00:52:47 --> 00:52:52 included in this tradition called marriage you know we don't we want don't want
00:52:52 --> 00:52:59 to radically overhaul the institution we want to be a part of it and it was about um.
00:53:00 --> 00:53:04 You know yeah just
00:53:04 --> 00:53:08 just trying to persuade people um and
00:53:08 --> 00:53:13 then somewhere along the way you know as lgbtqia2sl++
00:53:13 --> 00:53:17 just kept growing it became about something else
00:53:17 --> 00:53:22 and became it wasn't about persuading people it was about you're
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 either with us or against us yep and part of it is the you know i'm trying to
00:53:28 --> 00:53:31 think about with how he phrased it but just kind of this industrial complex
00:53:31 --> 00:53:39 of of the groups you know so i don't know if you saw a few months ago it was like glad,
00:53:40 --> 00:53:46 there was a story about glad how their ceo um it's kind of under fire because
00:53:46 --> 00:53:49 it was just lavish lavish expense accounts.
00:53:49 --> 00:53:53 Yep. She remodeled her kitchen and she's got this and that and the other.
00:53:53 --> 00:53:59 She's got a house and the Hamptons and whatnot, you know, and because the messaging
00:53:59 --> 00:54:02 was just like, you're, I, this is another topic.
00:54:04 --> 00:54:08 Talk about is the way that this
00:54:08 --> 00:54:11 is kind of how andrew sullivan began the way
00:54:11 --> 00:54:14 that the groups began talking about this wasn't about
00:54:14 --> 00:54:17 integration it's now like if you are lgbtq
00:54:17 --> 00:54:20 you are oppressed and you are under
00:54:20 --> 00:54:23 threat and this is the worst time ever
00:54:23 --> 00:54:26 and it's unprecedented and like we donate
00:54:26 --> 00:54:29 now you know and became about
00:54:29 --> 00:54:32 fundraising appeals you know once once
00:54:32 --> 00:54:35 gay marriage is achieved that's a that's that's a
00:54:35 --> 00:54:38 pretty big milestone you know and
00:54:38 --> 00:54:42 there's been a few other legal uh wins you
00:54:42 --> 00:54:45 know in the past several years but legally there's there's
00:54:45 --> 00:54:48 a lot of you know they could kind of hang
00:54:48 --> 00:54:51 up their hats if you're talking about just you know support for
00:54:51 --> 00:54:54 gay marriage and stuff like that but these groups
00:54:54 --> 00:54:57 have been established they have to they have to do something so now
00:54:57 --> 00:55:02 it's about fundraising appeals of you know and try to persuading it's it's it's
00:55:02 --> 00:55:07 going to the base telling the base you know donate now because things are so
00:55:07 --> 00:55:12 bad they're oppressive your your rights are under attack and it just kind of
00:55:12 --> 00:55:16 became this whole complex of.
00:55:16 --> 00:55:20 You know mobilizing the base
00:55:20 --> 00:55:23 instead of trying to persuade those on the other side of the issue and
00:55:23 --> 00:55:26 you can see it where you know the past few
00:55:26 --> 00:55:29 years the support for same-sex marriage is it's starting
00:55:29 --> 00:55:32 to dip yeah and that's part of why i wrote this
00:55:32 --> 00:55:35 this sub stack post was i'm i'm saying
00:55:35 --> 00:55:38 that i'm nervous i'm saying some of y'all are
00:55:38 --> 00:55:41 not helping you know some of you allies are
00:55:41 --> 00:55:44 not helping so that's that's part of
00:55:44 --> 00:55:47 what led me to uh to write the subsect post
00:55:47 --> 00:55:50 but yeah i will say you know i wrote
00:55:50 --> 00:55:54 my post it was like a week or so later matthew vines
00:55:54 --> 00:55:57 wrote a very similar post which i would definitely recommend anyone to read
00:55:57 --> 00:56:02 that one um very similar things and then about a week later andrew sullivan
00:56:02 --> 00:56:06 uh you know wrote his new york times so it feels like there's a conversation
00:56:06 --> 00:56:11 happening about you know some in the lgbt community are saying like hey.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:18 There's there's some of y'all that are just not not being helpful so yeah exactly,
00:56:20 --> 00:56:24 well if people want to know more about you or
00:56:24 --> 00:56:27 kind of follow you probably read the the article
00:56:27 --> 00:56:30 on the sub stack where should they go uh yeah
00:56:30 --> 00:56:33 so my sub stack is called ryan's boring book club
00:56:33 --> 00:56:36 um i usually you know review books and
00:56:36 --> 00:56:40 then occasionally i write this other stuff um it's
00:56:40 --> 00:56:46 ryanclarkself.substack.com um but yeah i feel free to like and share and follow
00:56:46 --> 00:56:51 and i just again just want to plug uh the other groups that i mentioned you
00:56:51 --> 00:56:55 know centerpiece restore austin reformation project these are all these are
00:56:55 --> 00:56:59 all good groups that are i think you know we can model after,
00:57:01 --> 00:57:05 All right. Well, Ryan, I do want, I think at some point I would like to have
00:57:05 --> 00:57:10 you back because there were tons of other subjects that I wanted to talk about
00:57:10 --> 00:57:12 that we didn't have a chance to.
00:57:12 --> 00:57:18 But thank you for this and we will again talk soon. Okay. Sounds great. Thank you so much.
00:57:21 --> 00:57:49 Music.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:33 We'll be right back.
00:57:48 --> 00:57:56 So, I want to thank Ryan for taking the time to chat with me on this episode.
00:57:56 --> 00:57:59 I'm curious to know what people's opinions were,
00:58:01 --> 00:58:05 you can feel free to send me an email to churchandmain that's all one word at
00:58:05 --> 00:58:12 substack.com I'm also going to include a few links a link to the article that
00:58:12 --> 00:58:14 Ryan talks about in question,
00:58:15 --> 00:58:22 and then I'm also will include a link to he talked a little bit about Matthew
00:58:22 --> 00:58:28 Vines who is an evangelical Christian who is openly gay,
00:58:29 --> 00:58:31 and a link to his organization.
00:58:31 --> 00:58:37 And then finally, I thought I would include a link to an op-ed.
00:58:37 --> 00:58:42 It's a rather long one, but I think a good one, an op-ed in the New York Times by Andrew Sullivan.
00:58:42 --> 00:58:50 For those who are unaware, Andrew Sullivan is a gay Catholic writer.
00:58:50 --> 00:58:55 Actually, someone that I think has been important to me, especially in my own coming out journey.
00:58:55 --> 00:59:02 He talks about kind of the progress that was made, especially when it came to
00:59:02 --> 00:59:08 same-sex marriage, but also some of the ways that the LGBTQ movement has evolved.
00:59:11 --> 00:59:17 Basically sometimes overreached, and that that has been detrimental to the movement as a whole.
00:59:18 --> 00:59:22 Again, all of these articles are going to be things that people may not always
00:59:22 --> 00:59:28 agree with, but I think it's important to hear this view.
00:59:30 --> 00:59:37 It is actually a view that I tend to maintain, And that does not mean that I
00:59:37 --> 00:59:41 don't have no interest in LGBTQ equality.
00:59:41 --> 00:59:43 And it's very much important.
00:59:43 --> 00:59:49 And in my thing, I think this morning I was actually reading an article about
00:59:49 --> 00:59:53 someone that I follow on Substack that's very conservative,
00:59:53 --> 01:00:00 who just wrote an article that was just incredibly demeaning towards LGBTQ Christians,
01:00:01 --> 01:00:03 basically saying that they weren't Christians.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 Obviously, that is not what these articles are saying.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:16 But what I mean is that there is still things to be done, a movement that we need to work on.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:19 And I think the question is, how do we do that?
01:00:19 --> 01:00:25 And how do we move? And how do we move forward?
01:00:27 --> 01:00:33 So I do hope that you will read those articles and think about them.
01:00:34 --> 01:00:37 And it's free, it's OK if you don't agree.
01:00:38 --> 01:00:41 I think that's also important too.
01:00:42 --> 01:00:47 But I do think it's important to have this viewpoint, and I'm glad that Ryan
01:00:47 --> 01:00:50 was able to come and share his views.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:56 So if you do want to learn more about this podcast, listen to past episodes
01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 or donate, as I always say, visit churchandmaine.org.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:06 You can also go to churchandmaine.substack.com to read related articles,
01:01:06 --> 01:01:08 and I hope that you will do that.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:13 There are some things, just musings that I come up with, especially in the time
01:01:13 --> 01:01:17 that we're in, that you can read those on Substack.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:22 I hope that you will, if you will consider subscribing to podcasts and even
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01:01:26 --> 01:01:29 When you do that, that helps others find this podcast.
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01:01:38 --> 01:01:44 especially through Buy Me a Coffee, and also to join our email list.
01:01:44 --> 01:01:50 I don't promote as much as I used to on social media, partially because I've
01:01:50 --> 01:01:55 seen the research that usually social media is not the number one way anymore
01:01:55 --> 01:01:58 that people discover new things.
01:01:59 --> 01:02:10 So, if you would like to get this in your inbox when any new episode comes live,
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01:02:24 --> 01:02:29 So, that is it for this episode of Church and Maine. I hope that you also consider
01:02:29 --> 01:02:32 sharing this podcast with family and friends.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:38 As I always like to say, thank you so much for listening. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:44 Take care, everyone. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
01:02:46 --> 01:03:13 Music.