The Intersection of Faith and Mental Health with Seth Perry | BONUS

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[0:36] Hello and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested in the intersection of faith in our modern world. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. This is a podcast where we look for where God is at work among the issues affecting church and the larger society. And to learn more about the podcast, to listen to past episodes or donate, check us out at churchandmain.org. And you can also check us out on, we have a sub stack at churchandmain.substack.com. I do put episodes there, but I also have articles, related articles there as well. Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and consider leaving a review. That helps others find this podcast. So this is one of the many kind of short episodes that I have put together in the past. Um, and this one is, uh, on an episode I did about a year ago, um, with Seth Perry. He is a Lutheran pastor. He, um, is pastor of a church in Scandia, Minnesota, which is just, uh, north of the twin cities. Uh, last Lent, Lent of 2023, he, uh, put together something called give up the stigma where where he was basically going to himself, but urging others to give up the stigma of kind of hiding mental illness.
[2:04] Seth is someone that is diagnosed with bipolar. He is bipolar, and so he shares his journey. And in a long interview last year, he shared his journey dealing with the illness, this, but also coming to terms with it, especially, um, as in his role as a pastor. Um, so this is a clip from that hour long interview that I had with Seth back in about a year ago. And, um, it's about 16 minutes. And, um.
[2:39] You'll learn a little bit more. And I've also included some links to the links, of course, to the full interview and then also some links that weren't available last year. One, especially from Minnesota Public Radio, that might be of help to help you understand if you have not heard this before. So I will go ahead and we will listen to that interview. you. And again, if you want to listen to other episodes of Church in Maine, please go to churchinmaine.org. But for now, here is Lutheran pastor, Seth Perry.
[3:17] So what was your faith like up to this point? Knowing that you had grown up Lutheran, Um, but you know, where did you feel God was in all of this, you know, up to being 29, especially in those years between 25 and 29? Yeah. Well, what I would say is I had a great upbringing in the Lutheran church and had a awesome connection to faith. Faith uh and because of living in a family where mental uh mental wellness uh kind of.
[3:56] Plummeted for everyone in the family around the age of 15 for myself uh it was a confusing time and i think that uh i blamed the church for a lot of you know the chaos that was happening in my And I stepped away from the church for 14 years. And then when I was 29 and I got sober again, I somehow became open-minded enough to consider going back to church because I kind of looked back at the 14 years that I'd been away from the church and I thought.
[4:32] Uh, you know, there were times where I certainly was living by faith. Really. There were times where, um, I would be shouting out to someone, uh, just profanity, shouting it out on my bed and, uh, you know, in a way just asking for help from God. And there was no one else in the apartment. I was just shouting out. And I remembered that, and people were asking me, when were times in your life where you lived by faith, even though you said that you didn't believe in God? And that was one of the times, right? There were many times that I could look back over the 14 years in my late teens and early adulthood where I still had a foundational belief in God. It's just that when I finally found a little bit of stability with my mental health, I realized that the faith piece of this all, the spirituality piece of this all is part of the solution for me. And so I kind of embraced that and found out a lot of good stuff about grace and forgiveness. And I started to feel good in my own skin again. Yeah. And then what made you start to think about ministry?
[5:59] So I was at a crossroads where, you know, in my active addiction, I was, uh, actively pursuing a, a career as a standup comedian. And I'd done work as an amateur comedian and was, um, was doing some semi-professional work as a comedian. And, um, it just was not realistic for me as someone who was brand new in recovery, um, you know, and just trying to, to embrace a routine where I could just take my medication at the same time every day, get to bed around the same time every day, wake up in the morning.
[6:45] And live a productive life. No one thought, no one in my support group, I had a support group, and they all said, yeah, pursuing your dream of being a comedian right now is not a good idea. Um, and so I had to kind of let that go. And, you know, once, once I'd let that go, I was active in my church and I, um, I had a pastor who had worked as a, as a chaplain, uh, in, in the, uh, uh, federal corrections, uh, institutes of, of, of Canada. And his story appealed to me working in that environment and working with inmates and I just had never really thought about ministry in that way and so I didn't know what I was getting into so I contacted the seminary they wouldn't let me alone really they continued to pursue and recruit me and a few years after that then I was getting my master Master Divinity, and I was in seminary, and it was really just because I was interested in helping people. I was at a crossroads where I think, you know, people were saying, are you going to be a counselor? Are you going to be an addictions counselor? Are you going to work doing that? Are you going to be a social worker? And I said.
[8:09] Considered those briefly, but for some reason, the, uh, the creativity that a pastor has, I think really, um, it, it, it, it, that was what attracted me, you know, like helping people in a way that, uh, was in some way creative and inspirational. I really just found that to be the best the best fit for me really yeah so you go through seminary and then you're um going to a first call or maybe even a second call and in one of our previous iterations of this you talked a little bit about the difficulty sometimes in bringing up um mental illness and And in fact, you didn't.
[9:05] And we'll get to when you actually do come forward to talk about that. But what was it about that that you didn't feel comfortable bringing up? And I think you've also talked about that it seems a lot easier to talk about addiction, pastors with addiction, than it is a pastor with a mental illness. Mm-hmm.
[9:55] Issue. And I just was concerned about that. And then even thinking about the fact that I'd been in a psych ward four times kind of just terrified me. And so that was just in the back of my head as well. So to become a candidate, to become a pastor, and part of the whole process of getting my master's degree meant that I got a psych evaluation and I, I put that off for years. And finally the seminary was like, you, you gotta get this done. Uh, we're surprised you haven't done it by now. And I went and I did it and, You know, I think there was maybe one question about, you know, if I'd been diagnosed with anything and what I do to treat it. And I told her and, you know, nothing happened.
[10:51] And and then soon after that, I became an intern pastor. And, you know, people were like, share your story about being a recovering addict. That's really inspirational. And I did. And sometimes it works its way into my sermon and, um, family members, uh, of, of, uh, recovering addicts would, uh, approach me and have coffee with me. There are folks that would be, uh, attending the church that I was an intern pastor at, and, uh, it sparked a lot of meaningful conversations. Conversations um however however i i i just didn't want to talk about also having bipolar disorder at that stage i didn't feel comfortable i wasn't sure about your average lay person about what they actually knew about bipolar disorder i wouldn't know if people would see me in a different light I didn't see a lot of people in leadership positions openly discussing the diagnosis of bipolar disorder.
[12:02] And, you know, people often told me, you know, you don't have to tell anyone. You don't ever have to tell your employer. You don't ever have to share this with anyone you don't want to. And I didn't really see any leaders in the church doing it. So, uh, yeah, so for five years, I, uh, was an intern pastor and, uh, and, and was, uh, in my first call and into my second call where I just, uh, kept quiet about it. Um, worked with a lot of people that had relatives or were individuals that were attending churches that, that had mood disorders or other, uh, related mental health conditions.
[12:50] And, um, and just sort of never opened up about my own, uh, my own history. Yeah. Was there a fear that people would find out or reject you?
[13:04] Well, yeah. And, you know, I had heard when I first sort of was kicking around the idea, a few other pastors had said, you know.
[13:17] People might be worried about how someone with bipolar in a leadership position that also has some influence over the church's finances, that there would be some concern around that because folks with bipolar disorder, when they're not well, can spend a lot of money. So there's that. Or, uh, someone else mentioned something where they said a symptom of bipolar disorder is hypersexuality. So, um, there might be a concern that you would cheat on your wife or, uh, you know, be promiscuous with parishioners. And, um, I think those are all fair generalizations like unfair maybe unfair generalizations is the better term um because uh they're all things where i'm like duh yeah i know about i know about i know the list of symptoms may be better than most people but um i mean it does it doesn't mean that it's gonna happen in my life and it only it It only worries me more when people bring that kind of stuff up, right?
[14:33] So that kind of hindered me from being open because in the back of my mind, I was thinking, if I announce this, are people going to be thinking, okay, well, now I'm worried about him.
[14:48] Absconding with a parishioner or misappropriating funding or not showing up to work or Or, you know...
[15:01] Even becoming delusional or something like that. Um, that, that was my concern. Yeah.
[15:09] So that kind of leads up to what happened this Lent and you started a campaign that came up on, um, um, YouTube and actually got shared, um, with your, with the wider, um, Senate that you're a part of called give up the stigma. Um, tell us a little bit about that. What was the genesis behind that and and what was the result so i thought hey this would be something that i'm feeling ready to share where i can just be honest about it preach about it provide some education within my congregation about it and around the same time i was considering that the Synod, the St. Paul Synod, offered a small mental health grant, and I applied for it, and I received some funding.
[16:06] And I was going to put that funding towards some education. Some educational seminars are going to be happening at our church, And so I put that whole piece together and decided that I would launch things in just with one video and explain I'm a clergy person. I have bipolar disorder.
[16:36] And if anyone feels comfortable talking about mental health and mental health conditions this Lent, then definitely give that up for Lent. Give up the stigma of mental health conditions for Lent alongside of me and we can talk about it just so that a dialogue could begin. in. And, uh, that's what the invitation was. And it got shared around to a lot of people and, uh, a lot of people got quite excited about it. So I was, uh, you know, it was happy and overwhelmed that, uh, there was such a response. Yeah.
[17:14] And what was the response, especially within your congregation?
[17:18] Within my congregation, I mean, a huge percentage of the congregation came to a place where they were just admitting that there were people in their lives or they were people themselves that have some connection to a mental health condition. Right. So anything from someone who takes antidepressants and who doesn't ever really feel like they can share about it. Someone who needs a sun lamp for a seasonal affective disorder to individuals whose child may have a mood disorder. Disorder um every single possible way that you think that something could be connected like generational trauma from schizophrenia in the in the family there there were all sorts of stories and experiences and if people didn't have someone close to them then they were it just fit in perfectly because we found a lot of people that were willing to just be helpers to learn more to listen more and to experience where faith and mental health can kind of dwell in the same space.
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