We've all heard of Trump Derangement Syndrome — the caricature of the uber-progressive who can't stop talking about the president. But what about the opposite version? The diehard loyalist who dismisses any criticism of Trump as irrational, even when it comes from people who share their faith?
This week, Corey Nathan returns to talk about his recent essay in The Dispatch titled "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey digs into what it looks like when people you love — friends, pastors, family — become what Corey calls "morally and epistemically unavailable." Drawing on an Al-Anon phrase that anchors his essay, "didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it," Corey wrestles with how far that logic should go when it comes to loved ones who've become unwavering Trump loyalists.
Links:
- Corey's essay in The Dispatch: "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?"
- Corey's podcast: politicsandreligion.us
- Episode 78: Finding God in the Mundane with Corey Nathan
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00:00:24 --> 00:00:28 Hello, and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:28 --> 00:00:31 intersection of faith, politics, and culture.
00:00:31 --> 00:00:36 I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Now, we've all heard the term Trump derangement syndrome.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:40 You can probably imagine the person that is being described by,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:45 this so-called malady, that's a progressive from a very blue area that's constantly
00:00:45 --> 00:00:50 on blue sky, watches MS Now, and follows everything that our current president
00:00:50 --> 00:00:55 does, every social media post, every news story, everything.
00:00:55 --> 00:00:59 Now, I've actually been around folks that kind of fit this description,
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 and they are not fun to be around.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 But what if I told you there is another version of TDS? It's one that you haven't heard of.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:13 Instead of the caricature of an uber-progressive, this person actually will
00:01:14 --> 00:01:19 be someone that, you know, might wear a red baseball cap, something that says
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 something about how great President Trump is.
00:01:21 --> 00:01:26 They might post constantly on X, and they love to talk about liberal tears and
00:01:26 --> 00:01:28 decrying anything that is woke.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:33 What I've described are not diehard critics of Trump, but diehard loyalists.
00:01:34 --> 00:01:40 And we find these people in all parts of society, especially the church.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:43 Corey Nathan is familiar with this version of TDS.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:45 In July, he wrote an essay in
00:01:45 --> 00:01:49 The Dispatch with the title, Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?
00:01:49 --> 00:01:55 In it, he shares his experiences with fellow evangelicals who became strong
00:01:55 --> 00:01:59 Trump supporters, but instead of breaking contact with them or shaming them,
00:01:59 --> 00:02:01 he actually wants to be present for them.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:06 In the essay, he writes the following, What I've been watching happen to people
00:02:06 --> 00:02:09 I love looks and feels a lot like addiction.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 And the research on addiction tells us something important.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 Shame and confrontation tend to entrench the behavior.
00:02:16 --> 00:02:21 Love and presence are more likely to create the conditions for change.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 It's an imperfect analogy, and of course, my friends aren't addicts,
00:02:25 --> 00:02:26 but the dynamic feels familiar.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:33 The denial, the defensiveness, the way confrontation closes doors that patients might eventually open.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:36 The problem I keep wrestling with isn't political, it's human.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:41 What do we do when people we love become morally and epistemically unavailable to us?
00:02:43 --> 00:02:48 So today, we're going to talk about this different kind of Trump derangement
00:02:48 --> 00:02:52 syndrome and see if there's a cure. So before we get into that,
00:02:52 --> 00:02:53 a little bit about Corey.
00:02:53 --> 00:03:01 He is and started out as a stockbroker that did theater on the side.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:07 And since then, he has become an entrepreneur, kind of on that on the one hand,
00:03:07 --> 00:03:10 but also kind of reaching out to creative endeavors.
00:03:10 --> 00:03:15 And one of those creative endeavors has been a podcast, a podcast called Talking
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:24 And that podcast is part of his work of reaching across religious and political
00:03:24 --> 00:03:29 and social divides to help people understand one another, which is,
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 of course, incredibly important in this day and age.
00:03:31 --> 00:03:38 A little bit about him is that he has been married to Lisa for over 25 years. He has three kids.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 He is a native of New Jersey, but lives in Los Angeles.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:51 So with all of that, let us get into this discussion with Corey Nathan about
00:03:51 --> 00:03:55 finding a cure for this kind of Trump derangement syndrome.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:18 Macquarie, it's good to have you back. And it's been a while.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 It's been about four or five years or so.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:27 I know. I wanted to, before we go into the discussion of the article,
00:04:27 --> 00:04:31 is to get a little bit of your background about who you are.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:36 If people didn't hear the first episode, just to know who you are and also a
00:04:36 --> 00:04:37 little bit about your podcast.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:41 Well, first of all, just an exhortation to anybody who's listening,
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 you have to listen to every single episode of Dennis's program.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 So go back and listen to that one.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:53 But no, I'm so thrilled to be back again. I remember having a great conversation
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 with you last time, Dennis, and I just love reconnecting with old friends.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:01 So my faith background is a little bit different.
00:05:02 --> 00:05:07 I grew up, the Reader's Digest version of it is I grew up in an observant Jewish family.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:14 We went to an Orthodox synagogue. And in my late 20s, I was 29 when I became
00:05:14 --> 00:05:16 a born-again Christian.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:23 So it's uh yeah a lot of folks uh i i know some folks who grew up christian
00:05:23 --> 00:05:27 or catholic and became jewish you know for for marriage purposes but,
00:05:28 --> 00:05:34 um now i i ended up uh discovering this uh first century rabbi named yeshua and uh,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:39 thought he he uh gave some of the most brilliant of our torres of all time and
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 came to believe that he was uh what we say in hebrew mashiach and uh yeah it's
00:05:44 --> 00:05:48 been quite a ride ever since I was about 20, 25 years ago, plus or minus.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:54 So I think you and David Brooks are both kind of interesting in that.
00:05:55 --> 00:06:01 You have become Christian, but you haven't left your Jewish faith either.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:07 And I think that that's, I'm always, I'm kind of fascinated by that connection
00:06:07 --> 00:06:13 and how those two intersect. And of course they do intersect because Christianity came out of Judaism.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 Um, so it's just fascinating.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 Yeah. And it's interesting. You mentioned David Brooks. He's, um,
00:06:20 --> 00:06:27 probably one of, if not the most, the writer who everything he puts out just
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 resonates on such a deep, deep level.
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 Um, there are a number of authors like that, you know, David,
00:06:34 --> 00:06:39 I didn't know about his, um, his becoming a Christian until I forget if it was,
00:06:39 --> 00:06:42 second mountain or the most recent book, how to know a person.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 But then I was fortunate enough to get to speak with David after the how to
00:06:46 --> 00:06:51 know a person came out and we did have a conversation about that it's also there
00:06:51 --> 00:06:54 are other folks who are part of,
00:06:55 --> 00:06:59 these um groups i don't know what you call them but like jews for his jesus
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 or messianic jews and it's like.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:08 Uh it's almost like the religion or the religious gathering they take on other
00:07:08 --> 00:07:15 weight and and to me it's just a theological it was a theological arrival, if you will.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 So when somebody says I converted, I guess technically I did,
00:07:19 --> 00:07:25 but I never, I never left my Jewish, I, I, I can't not be Jewish.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:30 There's nothing that's not Jewish about me. And I know that some folks would, would argue with that,
00:07:30 --> 00:07:33 including some of my, some of the folks I grew up with, or some,
00:07:33 --> 00:07:37 some family members that are Jewish and say, Hey, the, the, the whole Messiah
00:07:37 --> 00:07:42 thing is, you know, Jesus Messiah thing is problematic for your Jewish cred, but, um,
00:07:44 --> 00:07:45 One interesting thing, and then I'll shut up.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:55 Occasionally I go to Chabad, Orthodox synagogue with my dad on Saturday mornings.
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 And the rabbi there, Rabbi Choni,
00:08:00 --> 00:08:05 one of the first times I went with my dad to this one, Rabbi Choni gives me an aliyah.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:11 And I pulled him aside at one point I said Choni you know it's such an honor
00:08:11 --> 00:08:16 and Aaliyah is like they call you up to the bima and you do a prayer before
00:08:16 --> 00:08:20 the Torah service and I told Choni that I was a Christian and he said,
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 It's okay. We disagree on Mashiach, but you can't change your face.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 You know, which was a really nice way of saying you're Jewish,
00:08:28 --> 00:08:31 whatever, you know, you might believe things you might, you know,
00:08:31 --> 00:08:35 we have disagreements, but that's very much in the Jewish tradition.
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 Read, you know, any inch of the Talmud and you'll find that there's a lot of
00:08:38 --> 00:08:43 Jewish people really arguing vehemently with each other. So anyway,
00:08:43 --> 00:08:47 yeah, I'm still, Jewish, but I believe in the whole risen Christ.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:55 Well, I think one of the things that is always fascinating to me about Judaism
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 is the whole concept of the argument.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 Because I think sometimes with Christians, we're afraid of that.
00:09:03 --> 00:09:09 I think we're afraid of disagreement. And I think there's something healthy
00:09:09 --> 00:09:15 about being willing to argue the aspects of the faith, because it doesn't mean that you don't believe.
00:09:15 --> 00:09:19 It means it's actually, I think, a fruit of belief.
00:09:21 --> 00:09:24 Absolutely. And this goes back a couple thousand years plus.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:29 You know, the whole Talmud was written, they started writing it down about 200
00:09:29 --> 00:09:31 years before the first century.
00:09:32 --> 00:09:35 And then we're still writing all of these conversations down.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:39 And now throughout Jewish history, you have other great rabbis,
00:09:39 --> 00:09:43 you know, in almost every century that are looking at the Talmudic writings
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 and engaging in a very serious way with the Talmudic writings.
00:09:47 --> 00:09:51 And around the time of Jesus, there was Hillel and Shammai, which were the two
00:09:51 --> 00:09:57 main traditions out of which some of the great rabbis that we read about in
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 Talmud, Talmudic writings.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 But this is very much, you know, the first time I read Matthew 23,
00:10:04 --> 00:10:10 that to a lot of non-Jewish eyes, that looks like, oh, man, Jesus is really
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 going after him. you know, he's calling them names and everything.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:18 And I'm just thinking, this is just like a Tuesday night with some gefilte fish.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 Like, what do we, this is just what we do, you know?
00:10:21 --> 00:10:28 So, yeah, it's, it's good. But we're, when, when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, um.
00:10:29 --> 00:10:33 We thought there's a lot of Jewish people who thought that that was the end of Judaism.
00:10:34 --> 00:10:38 But, you know, the truth is we had been conquered. Our land had been conquered.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:42 Our people had been conquered by Babylonians and Persians and Romans and all
00:10:42 --> 00:10:48 these different and more recent centuries. You know, just last century, it was the Nazi regime.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:57 But yet all of those, all of those empires were, we have to go and learn about in museums.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 But the Jewish people who've never been an armed people.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:08 We couldn't compete with an empire like Rome, and yet we're still here. And why is that?
00:11:09 --> 00:11:15 I haven't teased this out, but I've been starting to think about it and study about it.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 I think it has something to do with the fact that we don't have the temple,
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 which was not just the center of the religious practices.
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 It was the center of the economy. It was the center of everything.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 And then when that went away and was destroyed, what did we have?
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 We had the Torah. We had the word, right?
00:11:31 --> 00:11:33 So we're a people of the word.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:38 And I think that is somehow connected to what you just picked up on that.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:43 We're comfortable having these arguments because just like Rabbi Choni said to me,
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 you can't change your face as vehemently as I disagree with you about your interpretation
00:11:48 --> 00:11:53 of Mashiach, a risen, you know especially the lordship of of the messiah,
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 um you're still jewish you're still,
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 of my people right so there's something i think there's something to the word,
00:12:02 --> 00:12:06 so i i gotta i gotta think a little bit more about that but you touched on that
00:12:06 --> 00:12:07 maybe that'll be an that'll be another
00:12:07 --> 00:12:11 a future essay you just might be an essay that could also be a book,
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 so i'm just putting that out there,
00:12:16 --> 00:12:22 All right. Well, I wanted to talk to you about an article that you wrote for
00:12:22 --> 00:12:25 The Dispatch that has the title,
00:12:26 --> 00:12:30 very interesting title of Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?
00:12:31 --> 00:12:35 And of course, the title does not mean what we think it means.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:44 It's very engaging because it's really talking about another Trump Derangement Syndrome. And,
00:12:45 --> 00:12:51 Could you kind of give a brief synopsis of what that article was about and what led to it?
00:12:51 --> 00:12:56 Well, first of all, I have to give credit to the folks at the Dispatch.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:02 First of all, it's one of my favorite publications, not just for Dispatch Faith,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:07 which Michael Reneau is the editor of, but the entire publication.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:13 I just find such principled, knowledgeable, well-read, thoughtful voices.
00:13:13 --> 00:13:17 And by the way, one of the other things I came to appreciate after having written
00:13:17 --> 00:13:22 that piece is how thoughtful comments are. And that might sound crazy because
00:13:22 --> 00:13:27 it's like the cesspool of humanity is any given comment section.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 But this comment section, it went hundreds of comments deep.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:33 And there were a few folks that came with sharp elbows, you know.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:40 But I tell you, like 95 or more percent of them, maybe 99 percent of them were,
00:13:40 --> 00:13:42 a lot of whom disagreed with me.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:46 But in the most thoughtful, edifying way, I learned so much from a lot of those comments.
00:13:47 --> 00:13:52 But also the title of the article, I got to give credit to Michael Brunot, the editor.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:59 I don't know if Michael wrote that title, but he picked up on a bit of whimsy
00:13:59 --> 00:14:03 that I had that sort of inspired the article.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:08 And it was i was driving away from a conversation i had with a really dear friend
00:14:08 --> 00:14:13 of mine um in fact one of the guys that's profiled in in the uh in the essay um,
00:14:14 --> 00:14:20 he's a he's a he's a good friend um he's close close to my family two of my
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23 kids have worked actually all three of my kids worked for him to consider him
00:14:23 --> 00:14:27 a mentor they all call him uncle very very close friend but he he,
00:14:28 --> 00:14:36 Um, he, uh, he over time has become more and more of a MAGA guy of a Trump guy.
00:14:36 --> 00:14:40 And, um, I, I drove away from a conversation with him thinking to myself,
00:14:40 --> 00:14:46 you know, I want to tell my buddy, um, Trump, cause he, he, at one point he just dismissed me.
00:14:46 --> 00:14:50 Ah, Trump derangement syndrome. Ah, what, you know, he just kind of wanted to
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 dismiss something. I said, you're, you'd suffer from Trump.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:57 And I thought to myself, Trump derangement syndrome is real.
00:14:57 --> 00:14:58 It's just not what you think.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:06 You know because part of it is I love this man I love him he's mishpacha as
00:15:06 --> 00:15:10 we say in Hebrew Judaism yeah,
00:15:12 --> 00:15:18 But he, as a Christian and as a conservative, for whatever reason,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:22 when I look at the words and actions on any given day of Donald Trump.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:29 I see a testimony against basically any page of the Bible.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:37 And what he sees is something different. He sees winning.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:42 He sees vindication. um he sees um.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:49 He sees vindictiveness he sees the to what i see as as vices,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:55 he might see as virtues um so that's that's it was a bit of whimsy to kind of,
00:15:55 --> 00:16:00 play around with that term trump derangement syndrome but to me it's it's a
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 very real there's something underneath it that.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:10 I am wrestling with in an earnest way, not as a rhetorical device to get into
00:16:10 --> 00:16:14 some contentious back and forth with somebody online. That's not the point.
00:16:14 --> 00:16:18 The point is a lot of us have people in our family, people that we love,
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 that see things differently than we do.
00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 Even when we share some really important things like he and I believe in the
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 authority of scripture, for example.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:32 Um, but when I come across, I think it was Matthew seven that I was in,
00:16:33 --> 00:16:37 uh, these things that come, come out of your mouth and Jesus talks about certain
00:16:37 --> 00:16:42 vices and man, every single one of the vices that Jesus talks about, uh, was it Mark seven?
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 Mark, I forgot. Mark, it was Mark seven.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:51 Um, that, uh, Jesus talks about these vices that everyone was describing is
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 such an apt description of, of things that Donald Trump says and does.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 Um, but Brandon, excuse me, my friend just sees it very, very differently.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:07 Why do you think, and this has been a question that I think a lot of people have asked, and,
00:17:08 --> 00:17:12 maybe with someone like Jonah Goldberg has talked about the,
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 you know, the, the pod people, um, he kind of likens it to, um.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:25 The kind of the, the body snatchers and that, that these people were kind of acting one way one day.
00:17:25 --> 00:17:31 And then the next time it's kind of Donald Trump is the greatest moral person they've ever met.
00:17:31 --> 00:17:36 And, you know, you have a lot of people just kind of scratching their head as
00:17:36 --> 00:17:41 to what, what went wrong or what's going on here.
00:17:42 --> 00:17:49 And so in your discussions with your friend, what do you think is going on?
00:17:49 --> 00:17:53 Why do you think that people, they see what's going on? And I think one of the
00:17:53 --> 00:18:00 things that you brought up I thought was fascinating was it was actually something
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 that Isaac Saul on Tangle brought up.
00:18:04 --> 00:18:11 And it was a listing of all of the corruption that has taken place in the Trump administration.
00:18:12 --> 00:18:20 And it's epic. I mean, bigger than, let's say, Teapot Dome and Warren G. Harding.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:25 On any given day. Yeah. I mean, yeah, teapot don't just like a day.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:32 But why do you think that people who are, you know, you don't,
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34 I don't doubt their faith.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 I think that, I think it's wrong to pretend that, you know, that they're,
00:18:38 --> 00:18:44 they don't mean their faith, but yet are kind of blind to what's going on.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:48 Well, one of the, one of the symptoms that I've come to.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:58 Recognize in a number of my friends is what I refer to as misallocating our moral attention.
00:18:58 --> 00:19:04 So for example, a pastor at the church, the first church I went to after I became
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 a Christian, I was there for about 15 years, ended up running a ministry for
00:19:08 --> 00:19:12 10, 15 years while I was there.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 We were close. We did a lot of work together.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:18 Missionary, you're like.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 We weren't just passing each other and saying hi at the church.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:30 We knew each other and did a lot of ministry together. But,
00:19:32 --> 00:19:38 that fellow gets so far as to say, well, he tweets some things out sometimes.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 And I think you're really obsessed
00:19:40 --> 00:19:45 with, you want people to be nice and that's what you're all about.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:52 Um, but then he quickly moves on to trans athletes in high school sports.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:58 And the last time I talked to him about it, I said, I told him,
00:20:00 --> 00:20:07 You probably have more kids that sit in your pews every weekend that are literally
00:20:07 --> 00:20:12 having suicidal ideations because they're struggling with their sexuality,
00:20:13 --> 00:20:14 specifically because of the way that,
00:20:16 --> 00:20:22 they deal with kids who even hint at something along those lines, right?
00:20:22 --> 00:20:28 Than in the entire state of California of trans kids playing in a sport.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:35 That isn't the right sex that they were assigned at birth.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:39 So I'm not saying, I mean, it is an issue. And listen, just to be transparent
00:20:39 --> 00:20:43 about it, if there was a proposition here in California where I live that said,
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 kids should play in the sports of the sex that they were assigned at birth,
00:20:48 --> 00:20:50 at least through high school, I'd probably be supportive of that.
00:20:51 --> 00:20:56 Um, partly because, uh, title nine and, you know, women should be a protected,
00:20:57 --> 00:21:02 um, class as well, but that it's, it's a really complicated conversation, but it's not,
00:21:02 --> 00:21:07 it's not an issue, but for some reason, it's an obsession of this one particular
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 pastor and, and a lot of pastors around the country.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 Meanwhile, what's happening right outside of our window?
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 What's happening right outside, right off of the hill where our church sits?
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 You know, there is so much happening in our country right now.
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 And this is your obsession?
00:21:25 --> 00:21:32 You know, any given issue, again, it's when my grandmother came from.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 Which it was called Russia at the time, part of the Russian Empire at the time.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:42 It's now part of Ukraine, the little town that my family's from.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:47 And they left in 1919. It took them about a year and a half to get to the States.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:51 They landed on Ellis Island, March 3rd, 1921.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:58 And part of what was happening was the religious clerics at the time were enraged
00:21:58 --> 00:22:00 at certain things that were happening.
00:22:00 --> 00:22:07 Uh, for example, um, there were traditions that had, um, uh,
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 that were the norm there at the time.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:13 And my grandmother remembers this where, um, all peasants, uh.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:21 Jewish, non-Jewish had to observe certain formalities, like a certain type of a bow.
00:22:22 --> 00:22:27 And that just wasn't happening as regularly. It wasn't just the Jews that were
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 not observing those things. There were all kinds of groups that were in tension.
00:22:31 --> 00:22:36 The Bolsheviks were upsetting all kinds of norms. But this was such a focus
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39 for religious elites, religious leaders, clerics.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:46 Um meanwhile that that was that was such a main focus for them meanwhile world
00:22:46 --> 00:22:52 war one was happening you know my grandmother's town uh our shtetl was being burned to the ground,
00:22:53 --> 00:22:59 on you know at least an annual basis the the the pogroms of the late 1900s and
00:22:59 --> 00:23:07 early 20th century uh 1800s and early 20th century um you know but this was their focus,
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 it's misallocating our moral attention.
00:23:12 --> 00:23:16 So I think the same thing is happening now. That's part of what I think is happening,
00:23:17 --> 00:23:24 when we can't look upon someone like a Donald Trump and,
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 even just starting with the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace,
00:23:27 --> 00:23:31 patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, and see how much of
00:23:31 --> 00:23:35 an antithesis he is with those very central virtues. Why?
00:23:36 --> 00:23:40 Why? Because some kid somewhere played in the wrong sport.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 We're misallocating our moral attention. I think that's part of it.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:48 There's other things that we could get into, but that was one of the,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:52 it's something that's helping me to understand.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 The other thing too is, and I know I've gone on about this for a second,
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 but the other thing too is, and this has been talked about a lot,
00:24:02 --> 00:24:07 we are allowing ourselves to put our political preferences and even political
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 prejudices before our theological convictions.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:17 So if we come across something in scripture that is at odds with our political
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20 preferences, whether it's a TV station that we're watching and they're.
00:24:22 --> 00:24:25 Promoting certain stories or the website that we're reading,
00:24:25 --> 00:24:30 our favorite website or a certain podcast and we come across something in scripture, oh, that,
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33 no, no, this, this can't possibly be, we're, we're reading it all wrong.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 We have to be anti-immigrant because we, we know that that's true.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:42 So you're just not reading scripture right, you know, but, but we have to take,
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 we have to take all of scripture, you know, whether, whether it agrees with your politics or not.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:52 So I think that's another thing is that we've made an idol out of politics and
00:24:52 --> 00:24:58 we, or we've made politics our religion first and foremost, and not necessarily scripture.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:02 And the numbers bear that out too. A lot of folks call themselves evangelicals
00:25:02 --> 00:25:05 these days, don't really go to church, don't really read their Bible.
00:25:06 --> 00:25:07 So I think that's another big, big part of it.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 Yeah. I mean, I think that that was something that really fascinated me.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:19 This might've been even back in 2016, where they found out that a lot of people,
00:25:20 --> 00:25:27 who had the label of evangelical, it was more of a cultural symbol.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:31 It was not something that described who you were theologically.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 It just has now become kind of politics.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 It's politics. It's not about your faith.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:44 And that's very different from what I, And having grown up evangelical,
00:25:45 --> 00:25:52 that meant something different in the 80s and 90s when I was in my teens and 20s that it means now.
00:25:54 --> 00:25:58 Yeah. Yeah. And I I'm ambivalent about that because there are great work.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:03 There are great words and ways that we understand ourselves.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 You know, evangelical is one of them. Conservative is another one.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:13 But I feel like those words and others have been hijacked by folks who are not
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 conservative in any way that G.K.
00:26:16 --> 00:26:19 Chesterton would have understood it or Edmund Burke would have understood it
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 or William F. Buckley or Ronald Reagan would have understood it.
00:26:24 --> 00:26:29 You know, and there's, there are evangelicals, um, that, that.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:37 I think if some of the abolitionists from the mid-1800s were to come and visit
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 us, they wouldn't recognize some
00:26:39 --> 00:26:45 of the folks who are calling themselves evangelicals, you know? So, yeah.
00:26:46 --> 00:26:51 You know, in the article, you bring up a quote from Al-Anon,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:57 and it kind of becomes the central part of this article. And the quote is,
00:26:57 --> 00:27:00 didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:06 And a lot of that is your struggle of that last phrase, can't cure it,
00:27:07 --> 00:27:16 when it comes to people that you know who are very diehard supporters of Donald Trump.
00:27:17 --> 00:27:22 Can you kind of explain what is it about that that makes you struggle?
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28 Because a lot of people in this day and age, it's really easy for them to just
00:27:28 --> 00:27:33 kind of cast people off if they don't agree with them.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:39 You still have relationships with people and I think you are not ready to do that.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 Yeah. I don't want to give up on my friends. I don't want to give up on my relatives.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:50 I don't want to give up on relationships. You know what I think of is my father,
00:27:50 --> 00:27:56 actually, is when I first became a Christian, he had deep, deep differences.
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 He even considered disowning me. But...
00:28:02 --> 00:28:09 When he gave some thought to it, he realized his relationship with his son was
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 much more important than any of these.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:17 It wasn't important. Isn't the right word. It outweighed. It won the room.
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20 He kept on coming into the room with his son.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:26 He disagreed on historical reasons, on the whole idea of filial obligation and
00:28:26 --> 00:28:30 the whole idea that his mother is the one and their family came over from Russia.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:35 Why? so that we could continue being Jews. You know, people died at the hands
00:28:35 --> 00:28:39 of, you know, men wearing crosses on their chest, swinging swords and beheading
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41 our neighbors. Why? Because we're Jews.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:46 The whole move to America, you know, and my family in Israel,
00:28:46 --> 00:28:50 to continue being Jewish is so central to who we are as a people.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 And yet he kept on coming into the room to be with his son. His relationship
00:28:54 --> 00:28:59 with his son has to transcend these differences.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:04 And not, you know, so I'm not saying everything has the same weight,
00:29:05 --> 00:29:11 and to be perfectly candid, there are relationships that I've had to maybe not
00:29:11 --> 00:29:16 give up on, but maybe love them from a safe distance, you know?
00:29:17 --> 00:29:25 Um, uh, but I, the other thing is I want to, I want to hold onto the possibility
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 that we'll get through this.
00:29:28 --> 00:29:32 I was coming into my own and starting to become aware of political things in
00:29:32 --> 00:29:37 the 1980s and learning about the Nixon era. And.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:47 And it's amazing how few people, how few adults I talked to in the 1980s that
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 would own up to having voted for Richard Nixon.
00:29:49 --> 00:29:54 And yet he's a president that won by a landslide. He kind of won by a landslide.
00:29:54 --> 00:29:56 So a lot of people have to vote for him.
00:29:57 --> 00:30:01 Yeah. So I think that we're going to get to a time. Adam Kinzinger talks about this.
00:30:01 --> 00:30:04 I think we're going to get to a time not too far from now where there are going
00:30:04 --> 00:30:08 to be a lot of people who don't want to own up to, you know,
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 their political proclivities, you know.
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 So and listen, man, I'm keeping the gate open.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:18 Like there's a lot of folks who say you have to do like penance and,
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 you know, take a flagellum to yourself for having voted for Donald Trump.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:27 I'm like, no, man, you know, party on. Let's go. Let's go, baby. Doors open.
00:30:28 --> 00:30:33 No tokens needed. Like, come on. Like, I just need you to like be like,
00:30:33 --> 00:30:37 come back to the land of the living to use your, you know, it's good.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:38 The water's warm. Come on in kind of thing.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:45 So I believe that we're not too far from that, you know, and folks are going to want not to be shamed.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 Like that's, that's the thing with Al-Anon is like shaming a person who's struggling
00:30:49 --> 00:30:55 with addiction is not something that works, but loving presence works.
00:30:55 --> 00:31:00 You know, walking next to whether it's your child, your spouse,
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 your friend, your parent, you know, not to the point where you're helping them
00:31:06 --> 00:31:10 deeper into their addiction, but saying, okay.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:18 Here's, I will move heaven and earth. I will move heaven and earth to help you
00:31:18 --> 00:31:24 move in the right direction and to develop healthy habits to replace these unhealthy habits.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:33 I'm here ready to just love you and not give up on you. I do not want to give up on you.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:38 This is especially important with someone that is close to you and your family,
00:31:38 --> 00:31:42 you know, and of course, lifelong friends. And.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:48 The analogy breaks down at a certain point because these aren't people who are suffering.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:52 I don't know, some folks do say, like, you know, using the Trump derangement
00:31:52 --> 00:31:54 syndrome, say it is a sickness and it is an illness of sorts.
00:31:55 --> 00:31:59 But I just, the bottom line is, I think that loving presence,
00:32:00 --> 00:32:06 is a more effective way to allow folks back into a thoughtful relationship and
00:32:06 --> 00:32:10 to re-examine some folks that they're not paying attention to,
00:32:10 --> 00:32:14 as well as re-examine certain assumptions that they've made.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:21 Um, you know, I, I just think I just, I found that that's, that's a better way.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:23 That's a better way forward. So I don't want to give up on them.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 So the, you know, didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:32 I I'm not ready to, I'm not ready to seed the can't cure it.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:35 I at least want to be a part of the cure over time.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:44 It reminds me a bit of the parable of the prodigal son of the father that just continues to wait.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:50 And as the son is returning, he sees him from a far way off and runs towards him.
00:32:51 --> 00:32:59 It seems to be the approach that you're wanting is that sense of reconciliation,
00:33:00 --> 00:33:05 that isn't the kind of shaming someone for what they've done because that.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:11 That doesn't seem to work. It doesn't. It doesn't. But remember the other son,
00:33:11 --> 00:33:12 too. There was the other son.
00:33:12 --> 00:33:18 Exactly. And it's like a lot of folks, you know, but I've also been that prodigal.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:23 I've been that father. I've been that prodigal. And I'd be lying if I said there
00:33:23 --> 00:33:25 weren't times when I felt like the son who stayed.
00:33:25 --> 00:33:29 Because there's something to be said about faithfulness. But the other thing
00:33:29 --> 00:33:35 is, I've had to tell a lot of my friends who, like in 2020.
00:33:36 --> 00:33:41 I was, there were a lot of rooms that not only was I not welcome in,
00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 but I was asked to leave, right?
00:33:43 --> 00:33:50 Um, and what I realized was I did not come out of the womb with all of the right,
00:33:50 --> 00:33:53 language and even all of the right beliefs.
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 Um, but I had some people, this, this maybe is what taught me.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:00 There's this, um, incredible woman.
00:34:01 --> 00:34:06 Uh, she is, uh, she came up as a creative, um, at these agencies that make coming
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 attractions and movie posts, movie posters.
00:34:09 --> 00:34:14 And in recent years, she's been an executive at Sony and then at Amazon,
00:34:15 --> 00:34:18 brilliant and creative, African-American.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:24 She's married now, but when I was getting to know her, single mom and just an
00:34:24 --> 00:34:25 incredible, incredible person.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:31 And she, talk about loving presence.
00:34:31 --> 00:34:35 She bore with me, man. Like there's just some things I am not,
00:34:36 --> 00:34:38 I don't have Dana's life experience.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 But she, she….
00:34:43 --> 00:34:48 She walked alongside me, right? And we ended up having some differences,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:51 but she walked alongside me. So I was producing this other show,
00:34:52 --> 00:34:53 an entertainment-oriented show.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:58 And what she realized was that there were, the way she put it,
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 she said, Corey, we can do better. I said, yes, Dana, we can.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:03 What are we talking about?
00:35:03 --> 00:35:06 She said, well, you have a lot of interesting guests, but they're all a bunch
00:35:06 --> 00:35:09 of old white guys. I'm like, oh, okay. Right.
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 And but the thing, the difference, like other people were saying,
00:35:13 --> 00:35:18 like, notice that and maybe we're throwing rocks and stuff. But Dana was like,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:19 but we're going to do something about it.
00:35:19 --> 00:35:22 I said, Dana, I've called this person, this person, this person.
00:35:22 --> 00:35:24 They won't take my calls. She said, they'll take my calls.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:32 So Dana hung with me and she helped me program an entire season of that of that of that of that show.
00:35:32 --> 00:35:40 So one other thing about Dana, there are two ladies on October 7th,
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 two ladies, I was having conversations about Israel. They know I have family
00:35:43 --> 00:35:44 in Israel. I'm Jewish and stuff.
00:35:46 --> 00:35:49 And we were having some hard conversations about Israel, Palestine, right?
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 Really deep, deep differences. Dana was one and a lady named Lisa Sharon Harper
00:35:55 --> 00:35:59 was the other one, both of whom I consider very dear friends.
00:36:00 --> 00:36:05 You know the two people who called me no later than October 8th was Dana and
00:36:05 --> 00:36:10 Lisa Sharon Harper but they didn't call me to to like debate about like Palestine
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 and genocide and you know all this stuff,
00:36:14 --> 00:36:18 they both said some a version of the same thing I just wanted to check in on
00:36:18 --> 00:36:20 you how you doing, brother?
00:36:24 --> 00:36:26 That's walking beside someone. That's,
00:36:29 --> 00:36:32 holding someone in loving presence, right?
00:36:34 --> 00:36:39 So don't you think too, that if there is something that I need to open,
00:36:39 --> 00:36:44 be open-minded about their point of view or something that I am blind to,
00:36:44 --> 00:36:48 that's a person, that's a person that I'm going to listen to.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:52 And it's not to say that we're going to come to some kumbaya and agree on every,
00:36:52 --> 00:36:54 there's still deep, deep differences that we have on things,
00:36:55 --> 00:36:58 but that's loving presence.
00:36:58 --> 00:37:03 So I think that's an ingredient that we can use a little bit more of.
00:37:03 --> 00:37:11 And this meme throwing, crap posting, there's enough of it.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:16 It's fine. If that's your thing, whatever, it's fine. But it ain't my thing.
00:37:16 --> 00:37:20 And frankly, I don't think it's working. I think that stuff is just making a lot of stuff worse.
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23 So that's where I'm coming from.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:28 And yet it's hard, especially in the culture that we're in right now.
00:37:29 --> 00:37:36 And I don't know if it's social media or just how more divided we are or something
00:37:36 --> 00:37:41 that we kind of, a lot of things especially is a lot of mean throwing.
00:37:41 --> 00:37:45 It's, it's kind of how mean can we be?
00:37:47 --> 00:37:51 And also kind of ignoring things that are happening.
00:37:53 --> 00:38:00 You mentioned a lot of things that have happened in the last few months,
00:38:00 --> 00:38:06 you know, besides just January 6th, but about, you know, citizens being detained and deported.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:12 And then I know you had a reference about militarized officers and on the street
00:38:12 --> 00:38:13 and people being gunned down.
00:38:13 --> 00:38:19 And I live in Minneapolis. So that's been something that has been a reality,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23 in kind of my experience.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:33 All of that is happening. And so that, you know, can get a lot of anger about what's going on.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:39 And so how do you keep from not having that anger directed at those people,
00:38:40 --> 00:38:42 the friends and family of yours?
00:38:42 --> 00:38:47 Because I do see sometimes, again, on social media, if there is something that
00:38:47 --> 00:38:53 has happened, someone will launch kind of a fuse, a grenade at someone like,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55 how can you support this man?
00:38:55 --> 00:39:00 And, and which I always think is one, that's not going to help with anything.
00:39:00 --> 00:39:05 Um, but it's this, but, but you also have to understand that there are people
00:39:05 --> 00:39:08 who are angry about what is legitimate injustice.
00:39:08 --> 00:39:15 And so how do you keep from what you're seeing, not curdle your relationship
00:39:15 --> 00:39:17 with, with your friends and family?
00:39:18 --> 00:39:22 Well, I'd like to back up for a second, Dennis. I mean, you've been through a lot.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:26 Your area's been through a lot. I know we're here in Southern California and.
00:39:27 --> 00:39:31 Our church didn't get an ice raid, but neighboring churches did.
00:39:31 --> 00:39:36 Uh, in fact, my, my pastor, uh, at the church I go to now, he,
00:39:36 --> 00:39:42 um, he usually gets all of about 12 views of the Instagram post of his sermon
00:39:42 --> 00:39:46 and his, is the thing that he does. Um, we share it online.
00:39:46 --> 00:39:53 Um, and he did one in, uh, I think it was in January where he basically, when was this?
00:39:53 --> 00:39:57 It was right around the time. It was the week after one of our neighbor churches
00:39:57 --> 00:40:00 got, got a ice, uh, ice rated them.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:05 Um, and basically what he said was, Hey, here's our legal responsibility.
00:40:06 --> 00:40:08 If ICE officers come, they're welcome to worship with us.
00:40:09 --> 00:40:13 Um, and this part of the sanctuary is a literal sanctuary.
00:40:13 --> 00:40:18 Uh, they're not here. So he didn't mention the names, but there's a two families
00:40:18 --> 00:40:20 that don't have the updated papers and stuff.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 So he's like, so if so-and-so and you know, so-and-so need to,
00:40:24 --> 00:40:26 they can be here and they'll be protected from ICE.
00:40:26 --> 00:40:31 And that's all it was. It was just very factual matter of fact man that.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 When that got shared online it got like hundreds of thousands of views so all
00:40:37 --> 00:40:41 i have to say like i i can only get a little taste of what you must have been
00:40:41 --> 00:40:44 going through dennis but how are you doing how are you holding up,
00:40:44 --> 00:40:48 i think doing okay i mean there are a lot of other people that that had a lot
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51 of more direct experiences um but,
00:40:52 --> 00:40:58 the months that were at the height, it was, it was tense and, you know.
00:40:59 --> 00:41:05 You always kind of figure out how do you deal with this and how do you be a
00:41:05 --> 00:41:07 pastor through all of this.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:15 And I do remember one Sunday during our prayer requests, every prayer request was ice related.
00:41:15 --> 00:41:19 Every prayer request. It wasn't, there was not one that wasn't.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:25 So it had touched a lot of people in our congregation.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:31 And so I think the ramifications will be things that we'll be dealing with for
00:41:31 --> 00:41:34 months and probably for years down the road.
00:41:35 --> 00:41:39 Yeah. But thank you for asking. Well, I'm sorry that I'm sorry for all of us,
00:41:40 --> 00:41:42 but you're you're at ground zero in a lot of ways.
00:41:42 --> 00:41:48 So I appreciate you, you know, being there for your your neighbors and folks
00:41:48 --> 00:41:49 you're going to church with.
00:41:49 --> 00:41:55 And, um, to answer your, your question, um, I.
00:41:56 --> 00:42:01 One of the things that's a reality is that I'm often put in a very similar position
00:42:01 --> 00:42:06 where someone will assume something, um, a politician that I support,
00:42:07 --> 00:42:09 um, or a quote unquote side that I support.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:15 And then I'll get a message or a text or something.
00:42:16 --> 00:42:21 Well, what do you say about this? Your boys, your people, your guy,
00:42:21 --> 00:42:24 like, and oftentimes I'll have to like.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:31 Slow your roll there, man. Like, um, I may have voted for this guy. Like I voted for Biden.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:36 Um, and the funny thing is I, I, I also vote for at the state and local level.
00:42:36 --> 00:42:39 There's still a lot of Republicans I support. So sometimes I'll get my,
00:42:39 --> 00:42:43 um, friends that, that are left of center, like, Oh, Suzette did this.
00:42:43 --> 00:42:46 Our, our, um, state senators, uh, Republican.
00:42:47 --> 00:42:50 So what, what do you think about so-and-so? I'm like, wait, hold on, hold on.
00:42:51 --> 00:42:56 I've, I supported Suzette or I supported Biden, you know, but like not everything
00:42:56 --> 00:43:01 he says and does is something that I, you know, that I would say and do,
00:43:01 --> 00:43:04 you know, I don't, it doesn't mean that I'm his proxy.
00:43:04 --> 00:43:08 I'm not one of them. You know, I'm still me. Like, Hey, we met,
00:43:08 --> 00:43:12 right? Like, you know, me, you know, like, um, do you want to talk about the
00:43:12 --> 00:43:13 issue and what I think about the issue?
00:43:14 --> 00:43:18 Or do you just want me to be the proxy? Um, or did you just want to like,
00:43:19 --> 00:43:23 I don't know, be like a bomb thrower, like, because that's depending on the person.
00:43:23 --> 00:43:27 So I have to remember that. I have to remember, like, if Trump,
00:43:27 --> 00:43:32 when Trump says and does something, it's not necessarily something that somebody
00:43:32 --> 00:43:36 I know who voted for him once, twice or three times would be in favor of.
00:43:36 --> 00:43:42 So even when it comes to these ICE raids, I was sitting around a table. I think this is in.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:50 It's January, February. And, uh, half of the people at that table voted for
00:43:50 --> 00:43:57 Trump in the last one. Um, but they all had a similar position is I didn't vote for this.
00:43:57 --> 00:44:03 They voted for lower gas prices. They voted, voted to close the border.
00:44:03 --> 00:44:06 They were stronger on, you know, pretty strong on the, you know,
00:44:07 --> 00:44:09 on the border for various reasons.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:11 Um, you know, and we could agree and,
00:44:14 --> 00:44:18 but they didn't vote for ice raids at Home Depots.
00:44:19 --> 00:44:24 They didn't vote for a war in Iran.
00:44:26 --> 00:44:30 Where the president didn't consult with Congress, let alone get the approval
00:44:30 --> 00:44:33 of Congress or the consultation of our allies.
00:44:33 --> 00:44:37 They certainly didn't vote for $6 and $7 gallon gas.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:44 They didn't vote for tariffs. They knew tariffs. He was using that as jargon
00:44:44 --> 00:44:48 on the campaign trail, but they didn't think that he just kind of circumvent,
00:44:50 --> 00:44:52 power of the purse, Article 1 powers, Congress.
00:44:54 --> 00:44:57 Some of these people are pretty knowledgeable, but they were voting for certain
00:44:57 --> 00:45:02 things. The folks who say, I don't like, again, like the pastor I was talking
00:45:02 --> 00:45:07 about in the article, I don't like his tweets, but I like his policies, you know?
00:45:08 --> 00:45:12 Um, so that's what they were voting for. But it's, it was funny because the
00:45:12 --> 00:45:14 three people at that table I was at, uh,
00:45:15 --> 00:45:18 who said that they voted for Trump at 24, they all had a similar,
00:45:19 --> 00:45:23 um, uh, similar kind of disposition about it. Now we didn't vote for this.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:26 So it was interesting.
00:45:27 --> 00:45:30 So, but, but again, just to answer your question, I'm not,
00:45:31 --> 00:45:38 It's not, it's not a productive tactic to hold them accountable for everything
00:45:38 --> 00:45:44 that he says and does, you know, any, any more than it's, um, that it's a,
00:45:44 --> 00:45:49 that it's productive for somebody to hold me accountable for everything that,
00:45:49 --> 00:45:54 that, that, that Biden did in the last term or Suzette is doing.
00:45:54 --> 00:45:56 You know, there are certain things, there's reasons that I voted for her,
00:45:57 --> 00:45:58 for state, the state legislature,
00:45:59 --> 00:46:03 primarily that she was one of the founders of the, um, problem solvers caucus,
00:46:04 --> 00:46:07 you know, but there's, there's, uh, just Suzette and I will talk about like
00:46:07 --> 00:46:09 the, you know, where we defer.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:14 So let's have, the point is let's have a conversation, one human being to another,
00:46:14 --> 00:46:16 not one proxy to another.
00:46:16 --> 00:46:19 You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:46:20 --> 00:46:22 One of the things that you talk about is how...
00:46:24 --> 00:46:29 Basically, you use the word, I think, collective narcissism,
00:46:29 --> 00:46:35 and that this is how people kind of choose,
00:46:36 --> 00:46:39 in this case, choose to support Trump.
00:46:41 --> 00:46:47 And you talk about a philosopher, German philosopher, kind of talking about
00:46:47 --> 00:46:51 the appeal of fascism in pre-war Germany.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:54 And it reminded me of something that I read.
00:46:54 --> 00:47:00 It's a book I finished a few months ago about the theologian Karl Barth.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:06 And he was doing, he had what he called an emergency homiletic.
00:47:06 --> 00:47:12 It was a course at the university. I believe he was at Tübingen in Germany.
00:47:12 --> 00:47:17 And the book was fascinating because what the writer wanted to do was not just
00:47:17 --> 00:47:22 focus on what Barth was preaching, and that was important, but also what was
00:47:22 --> 00:47:25 going on in the culture around him.
00:47:25 --> 00:47:34 And this was in 1932-33, so it's right in the lead-up to Hitler becoming chancellor
00:47:34 --> 00:47:35 and then becoming chancellor.
00:47:36 --> 00:47:40 And one of the things that was fascinating was how much there was still this
00:47:40 --> 00:47:47 kind of resentment about losing World War I and trying to find someone to blame.
00:47:49 --> 00:47:57 And how quickly, once Hitler becomes chancellor, there was just like this uber
00:47:57 --> 00:48:01 kind of patriotism, to use a German word, um,
00:48:02 --> 00:48:08 kind of made it feel like they were part of something larger than themselves.
00:48:09 --> 00:48:14 And that's what made me think about that when I was reading the article about
00:48:14 --> 00:48:16 this collective narcissism, is that,
00:48:18 --> 00:48:23 and you even say later on something to the effect of, and here it says,
00:48:23 --> 00:48:27 Trump isn't just a politician to many of his followers, he's a transaction.
00:48:27 --> 00:48:31 You surrender your moral judgment, you get back certainty, you surrender your
00:48:31 --> 00:48:34 identity, receive back greatness it's kind of,
00:48:35 --> 00:48:40 you know if we put our faith in this guy we're going to get back so much more,
00:48:41 --> 00:48:44 and yeah there is a sign of something interesting about that that,
00:48:45 --> 00:48:50 it helped me kind of maybe understand why some people it's so hard to give that
00:48:50 --> 00:48:54 up because they it's become I'm a sunk cost.
00:48:54 --> 00:48:57 Yeah, that's right. That's right. You know.
00:48:58 --> 00:49:07 I think a lot of folks that I know had just gotten so fed up with having certain
00:49:07 --> 00:49:12 folks wag their finger in their face and say, well, you should think this way.
00:49:12 --> 00:49:17 You know, the fellow that I outlawed, a dear friend that I, one of the fellows
00:49:17 --> 00:49:21 that I talked about in the essay there, Puerto Rican descent.
00:49:21 --> 00:49:27 Um, so my guess is that he didn't vote for Trump in 16 by 2020,
00:49:27 --> 00:49:31 he probably did it, but not entirely confidently, but by 2024,
00:49:31 --> 00:49:33 he was very much on the Trump train.
00:49:33 --> 00:49:37 Um, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that he's surrounded by
00:49:37 --> 00:49:42 people that are shooting him, do, do, do what's called, uh, what I call shooting him to death.
00:49:43 --> 00:49:45 You know, you should think this way and you should vote that way.
00:49:45 --> 00:49:49 And you should say, you know, and he, at a certain point, he just snapped.
00:49:49 --> 00:49:51 He just, he just like, I'm done.
00:49:52 --> 00:49:58 So what he described to me was that there's a mindset that.
00:49:59 --> 00:50:06 This is war. You know, that, that they, they, there was a declaration of war
00:50:06 --> 00:50:11 against people that they saw as enemies.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:17 Um, and to, for my friend, a lot of those people that were wagging their finger
00:50:17 --> 00:50:20 in his face were basically that.
00:50:20 --> 00:50:25 So when I see somebody like Hegseth in front of Congress doing a whole song
00:50:25 --> 00:50:26 and dance and acting like a
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 clown or Kash Patel acting like a clown and yelling and, you know, having,
00:50:31 --> 00:50:36 you know, having talking points of what this senator did and what that Congress
00:50:36 --> 00:50:38 member said and, you know, getting his.
00:50:39 --> 00:50:42 You know, basically getting his Fox news hits during a congressional hearing.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:44 I think they're freaking clowns, right?
00:50:45 --> 00:50:49 My buddy's like, I loved it. I loved it. They're giving it to him there,
00:50:49 --> 00:50:53 you know, and because he said, because this is war.
00:50:54 --> 00:50:58 You know, so a guy like Trump or Hegseth or Patel or Stephen Miller,
00:50:59 --> 00:51:03 you know, when I'm thinking through, when I'm trying to do my best to think
00:51:03 --> 00:51:07 through the lens of Christian virtue, right, what we read about Hebrew Bible and New Testament,
00:51:09 --> 00:51:10 the,
00:51:11 --> 00:51:18 much more prominent focus is giving it back to those who've been giving it to him for so long.
00:51:21 --> 00:51:24 So, you know, so to, I have another friend that I grew up with,
00:51:25 --> 00:51:30 lady, I never would have thought, like, until I started reading her post,
00:51:30 --> 00:51:33 and I've had a number of conversations with her subsequently,
00:51:33 --> 00:51:35 I just, it didn't connect with me.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:39 But there was something that happened during COVID where I wouldn't say that
00:51:39 --> 00:51:43 she started out as completely anti-vax, but, uh, as a teacher,
00:51:43 --> 00:51:47 she saw some of the harm being done to her, her own kids as well as her students.
00:51:47 --> 00:51:53 Um, and it just, it, I think it made her more and more, um, passionate about
00:51:53 --> 00:51:57 supporting Trump and ultimately in that election and then 24.
00:51:58 --> 00:52:06 Um, and so for, for this, and again, I consider her dear friend um lifelong friend um.
00:52:07 --> 00:52:14 If uh you know when she sees trump being vindicated whether it's what she calls
00:52:14 --> 00:52:21 the uh the russia hoax or you know these certain cases that um,
00:52:23 --> 00:52:26 that were thrown at that were ultimately thrown out, you know,
00:52:26 --> 00:52:32 it's her, the, the collective narcissism part of it is her feeling like a victory for her,
00:52:32 --> 00:52:40 you know, or overlooking the self-dealing and a $2.2 billion that the Trump family made last year,
00:52:41 --> 00:52:46 you know, for folks that maybe are struggling to pay for gas,
00:52:46 --> 00:52:52 if they kind of attach themselves, um, in, in, at an identity level,
00:52:52 --> 00:52:54 that feels like a victory for them.
00:52:54 --> 00:52:57 Well, we're winning, we're doing well, you know?
00:52:57 --> 00:53:02 So that's the, it's an interesting, it's an interesting phenomenon,
00:53:02 --> 00:53:03 the collective narcissism.
00:53:03 --> 00:53:07 I think it was, uh, there's a, a contemporary scholar named Zavala,
00:53:08 --> 00:53:14 Z-A-V-A-L-A, um, at, uh, at one of the schools in London that is teasing that,
00:53:14 --> 00:53:17 that, um, that theory out now. So.
00:53:17 --> 00:53:23 You know, one of the questions that I have, and at some point,
00:53:23 --> 00:53:28 obviously, in 2029, Trump won't be president anymore.
00:53:29 --> 00:53:34 And we hope. Yeah, fingers crossed, right? Yeah.
00:53:34 --> 00:53:40 But there is still going to be this environment that remains.
00:53:41 --> 00:53:47 Yeah. You know, it's not all just going to blow away the next day. What is...
00:53:48 --> 00:53:55 The route forward, how should Christians be to one another in those in that time?
00:53:55 --> 00:54:01 Because I think that is a, I think sometimes we think that if we vote for the
00:54:01 --> 00:54:05 right person, then everything will be fine.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:09 And obviously that happens on that. Exactly.
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 You know, but an election is not going to just heal everything.
00:54:15 --> 00:54:20 And as you said and I was alluding to that that's not where our hope lies so,
00:54:21 --> 00:54:26 how do we what does that mean for us moving forward and what does that mean
00:54:26 --> 00:54:31 for the church and how do we deal with one another especially for those of us who.
00:54:32 --> 00:54:38 I guess it would be either Trump critical, anti-Trump, towards those who did support him. Yeah.
00:54:39 --> 00:54:43 I was having a conversation, this is before Trump ever entered the scene,
00:54:43 --> 00:54:48 with a fellow who became somewhat of a mentor for me, a guy named L.T. J. Chandran.
00:54:49 --> 00:54:53 And brilliant, brilliant guy. And I was struggling with some similar issues
00:54:53 --> 00:54:59 because I had been asked to leave a Bible study because some of these same issues started arising.
00:55:00 --> 00:55:04 This is not a new thing that some of the guys I've been going to church with
00:55:04 --> 00:55:06 put their politics before the Bible, right?
00:55:07 --> 00:55:11 And I haven't always had the nice, I'm a kid from Jersey. So sometimes I'm the
00:55:11 --> 00:55:12 one with the sharp elbows, you know?
00:55:14 --> 00:55:18 So that might add something to do with why they asked me not to come back to that Bible study.
00:55:19 --> 00:55:22 I think it had more to do with the fact that I was asking these hard questions.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:27 Like, what are we doing, guys? Like, why are we not just like closed border
00:55:27 --> 00:55:29 as a policy? We're like anti-immigrant. That's what we're talking about here.
00:55:30 --> 00:55:33 We've got to read the rest of Leviticus 19, you know, because that doesn't support
00:55:33 --> 00:55:34 what we're talking about.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:38 We got to also read, you know, how Jesus dealt with people that were on the
00:55:38 --> 00:55:41 other side of a line drawn in a sand, you know?
00:55:42 --> 00:55:45 But anyway, I was asking LT J. Tondran about it.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:49 And LT says, Corey, he had this way of talking that was just like,
00:55:49 --> 00:55:54 so he was like Christian guru in a way. It was awesome. Corey. Corey.
00:55:56 --> 00:56:01 There are very few places where Jesus gives us an impeditive.
00:56:02 --> 00:56:09 There's one place that you cannot get around, that you love one another.
00:56:10 --> 00:56:13 It's pretty straightforward, right? That you love one another.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:18 So to answer your question, I'm not going to write a list of like the,
00:56:18 --> 00:56:23 even the 10 commandments of how to repair all the things. Cause there's a lot of things, man.
00:56:24 --> 00:56:29 But if we can just remember that now what does it look like to love someone
00:56:29 --> 00:56:32 there's a couple great books that have been written about it we we were talking
00:56:32 --> 00:56:34 about david brooks his book man,
00:56:34 --> 00:56:39 how to how to know a person he talks a lot about that he cites he cites a lot
00:56:39 --> 00:56:44 of monty guzman's work monica guzman's work she wrote a book called i never
00:56:44 --> 00:56:46 thought of it that way so you know what man like.
00:56:48 --> 00:56:52 Uh i used to i used to go to these bible studies and knowing that politics was
00:56:52 --> 00:56:56 going to come up and I was going to, because again, like, anyway,
00:56:57 --> 00:57:00 I was going to be the black sheep in that room.
00:57:00 --> 00:57:04 And I used to think about in advance, like, oh, he's going to say this and I'm
00:57:04 --> 00:57:06 going to say this as a comeback. And then he's going to say that.
00:57:06 --> 00:57:08 I'm going to say that as a comeback and I'm going to win, you know,
00:57:08 --> 00:57:13 like think of it in a very contentious way. That wasn't a productive way to do it. These days.
00:57:14 --> 00:57:20 When I'm going into a conversation where I know somebody defers from me on deep,
00:57:20 --> 00:57:25 important issues, I'm preparing in a different way, not thinking about what
00:57:25 --> 00:57:29 he's going to say and what I'm going to say as a comeback, not thinking about trying to win.
00:57:30 --> 00:57:31 I'm preparing my disposition.
00:57:32 --> 00:57:37 I'm preparing my disposition to be able to see a human being in front of me,
00:57:38 --> 00:57:43 not to see a vote that this person cast, not to see a position.
00:57:43 --> 00:57:47 And then from that position to draw an entire caricature of,
00:57:47 --> 00:57:50 of them, right? Quote, unquote, them.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:56 Um, and that this person is now just one of them. I'm preparing my disposition
00:57:56 --> 00:58:00 to get to that point that Monty talk, Monica Guzman talks about where I,
00:58:00 --> 00:58:05 one of us, especially me can say, I never thought of it that way.
00:58:06 --> 00:58:09 And even if we still disagree, even if we still disagree,
00:58:10 --> 00:58:13 You know, like my buddy and I were talking about the war in Iran the other day,
00:58:13 --> 00:58:17 and he said, it's because I see we're at a point in history right now between
00:58:17 --> 00:58:21 the last time an atomic bomb was dropped and the next time an atomic bomb was dropped.
00:58:22 --> 00:58:26 And you know something? I still disagree with him, but I never thought of it that way.
00:58:26 --> 00:58:30 But if I did think of it that way, like my friend does, then a lot of his other,
00:58:31 --> 00:58:35 views about what's happening in Iran at least are coherent.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:40 Again, I disagree with a lot of it, but at least they're coherent to me.
00:58:40 --> 00:58:42 And now I see a human being in
00:58:42 --> 00:58:47 front of me and he sees, he sees someone in front of him that loves him.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:53 Right. And I think that is what begins to chip away at these calluses,
00:58:53 --> 00:58:56 at these, these divisions, these fissures between us.
00:58:57 --> 00:59:02 So that you love one another. And that's one way we can practice love is to
00:59:02 --> 00:59:07 see a human being with that divine in them, you know, with that.
00:59:08 --> 00:59:13 Agape, you know, an agape love that the, what is it? The imago Dei with the
00:59:13 --> 00:59:16 image of God. Yep. Right? Yes.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:22 Yeah, I think that that has to be the case. I think we just have to try to remember that.
00:59:22 --> 00:59:27 And that's, but I think that there are so many temptations in our culture to
00:59:27 --> 00:59:32 make us forget that the person that is next to us,
00:59:33 --> 00:59:37 or on the other side of that screen is a child of God.
00:59:38 --> 00:59:43 And I think we just have to, well, one, I mean,
00:59:44 --> 00:59:48 know that we're going to mess up and ask for forgiveness, but just really ask
00:59:48 --> 00:59:55 God daily for help to, to see that that person is, is one of God's children. You know.
00:59:57 --> 01:00:03 I, um, I saw another friend from here in town post something about the Fauci hearings last week.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:07 And she, she just said Fauci POS, you know, for piece of crap, whatever.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:11 And then a whole bunch of people commented, yeah, worst person,
01:00:11 --> 01:00:12 caused tens of thousands.
01:00:12 --> 01:00:17 And listen, I'm not going to get into the conspiracy theories underneath all
01:00:17 --> 01:00:19 of that. But what did occur to me was that,
01:00:20 --> 01:00:27 There is a very effective business model at work, and that's what that looks like.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:33 So TV channels know that it's a very effective way to get people coming back,
01:00:35 --> 01:00:40 and watch their shows if they get people afraid and angry. Riled up.
01:00:41 --> 01:00:44 And riled up. It's a literal chemical reaction that.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:52 We just instinctively have. um it gets them riled up and then social media companies uh.
01:00:53 --> 01:00:57 Like i hadn't seen one of these people's posts in i don't know how long it's
01:00:57 --> 01:01:00 been at least a year hadn't even wished me happy birthday last week
01:01:00 --> 01:01:05 but i saw this post why because meta facebook knows that this post is going
01:01:05 --> 01:01:09 to get a lot more engagement than you know even a picture of my dog,
01:01:10 --> 01:01:14 you know um so they know it works so this is a business model at work.
01:01:15 --> 01:01:19 I remembered that, but I said, man, and this person got all riled up about it,
01:01:19 --> 01:01:22 posted about it, got all kinds of comments.
01:01:22 --> 01:01:27 And I said, Fox news, just one, or if you will, MS news or MS,
01:01:27 --> 01:01:29 whatever it is now, MS now, is that what it's called?
01:01:29 --> 01:01:34 MS now. Um, they, they, they sometimes do the same thing, you know,
01:01:34 --> 01:01:39 meta, just one Facebook, just one, not us, not any of us, because I know this
01:01:39 --> 01:01:42 person, we have, I don't know, 150 friends in common.
01:01:43 --> 01:01:46 And there were at least a dozen people who I know who commented,
01:01:47 --> 01:01:48 but those are the ones that agree with her.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:52 You know, what about the other 150 friends we have in common?
01:01:52 --> 01:01:54 None of them were commenting, right?
01:01:55 --> 01:02:02 So the agenda is to get riled up and to divide, but I will not let them win.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:05 Next time I see this person, we're probably going to bump into each other at
01:02:05 --> 01:02:07 like a chamber of commerce event or something like that.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:13 Or we do a lot of fundraisers together here. Um, I'm going to say,
01:02:13 --> 01:02:16 Hey, going to give her a hug, you know, what's going on.
01:02:17 --> 01:02:20 If we end up talking about it, I'll let her know what I think,
01:02:20 --> 01:02:22 you know, probably a little bit of what I just said.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:24 Um, cause I'm not going to.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:28 My show is called Talk of Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other.
01:02:28 --> 01:02:33 Like, I'm not going to avoid the topic, but she's still going to be my friend.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:37 And I'm not going to use that as just this thing that defines her.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:43 And maybe, maybe I can have one degree of persuasion, one degree of like influence there.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:48 Maybe like I can't beat Meta. I don't have like a millionth of a gazillionth
01:02:48 --> 01:02:50 of the amount of money that they have.
01:02:50 --> 01:02:54 But I have this one friend and I can see her as a human being.
01:02:55 --> 01:02:59 And by seeing her as a human being, it kind of breaks down some of those barriers.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:00 And maybe she can see me as a human being.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:05 Maybe we can have a real conversation as opposed to a meme that gets people
01:03:05 --> 01:03:10 riled up some more and falls into the trap that big broadcast companies are
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 setting and big social media companies are setting, you know?
01:03:13 --> 01:03:19 So that you love one another yeah and I think you at the end of the or towards
01:03:19 --> 01:03:24 the end of the article is that sense of the greater love hath no man than this,
01:03:25 --> 01:03:31 reminds me of that I think one way that we handle this and how we be present
01:03:31 --> 01:03:35 with one another is sacrificial it's.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:40 It's being willing to kind of give up your own, maybe comfort,
01:03:40 --> 01:03:42 willingness to be uncomfortable.
01:03:42 --> 01:03:46 And it doesn't mean that you accept whatever kind of thing comes out,
01:03:46 --> 01:03:52 but it does mean being present, sitting with people that you may disagree with.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:58 Yeah. Greater love knows no one than this, than one who would lay down his life for a friend.
01:03:58 --> 01:04:01 I'm not even asking you to lay down your life. I'm just asking to have a beer
01:04:01 --> 01:04:05 with somebody or have a coffee with somebody, you know, than one who would have
01:04:05 --> 01:04:09 a coffee with somebody, you know, that we can do, you know? Yeah.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:15 Well, as we kind of wrap this up, I wanted to, um, is if people want to know
01:04:15 --> 01:04:18 more, and I know you have, you just kind of mentioned your podcast,
01:04:19 --> 01:04:23 um, where can they find you if they've read this article or heard this podcast,
01:04:24 --> 01:04:25 where can they read more or listen more?
01:04:26 --> 01:04:31 I appreciate that. Well, again, I, I, uh, I was so honored that the dispatch,
01:04:31 --> 01:04:32 uh, published this piece.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:37 So it's a great publication. I'd encourage you to go check out the dispatch.
01:04:37 --> 01:04:41 Uh, and we're still, we're still up there in dispatch faith.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:44 One of their newsletters that, that article, and we're actually working on a
01:04:44 --> 01:04:45 couple other things together.
01:04:46 --> 01:04:50 Um, the, uh, the place where you can find my program. Uh, thanks for letting
01:04:50 --> 01:04:52 me share about that. It's pretty straightforward.
01:04:53 --> 01:04:55 Politics and religion dot us.
01:04:56 --> 01:04:59 Politicsandreligion.us Right.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:04 Well, Korthy, thank you for coming back on the podcast. This was,
01:05:04 --> 01:05:08 I think, a hopeful discussion, and.
01:05:09 --> 01:05:14 I always like to say that hope is different from optimism. Optimism is always
01:05:14 --> 01:05:19 kind of the belief everything is going to work out, but hope is always the belief,
01:05:21 --> 01:05:24 that kind of evil doesn't have the last say.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:29 And I think that this was that type of a conversation. So thank you for that.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:33 Yeah. Remember, too, that the end of the other part of that verse,
01:05:33 --> 01:05:39 if we keep reading in that verse, the Apologia verse, it talks about with love and respect, right?
01:05:40 --> 01:05:45 Um, that, that you, uh, share, share the hope that's within you,
01:05:45 --> 01:05:49 the, the reasons for the hope that's within you, but with love and respect,
01:05:49 --> 01:05:51 there's, there's different translations of that, but that's the,
01:05:51 --> 01:05:53 that's the, that's the gist of it.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:58 So, um, I'm happy to share that hope that's within me for things that we don't
01:05:58 --> 01:06:02 even see, you know, that maybe we don't even see the, the, the hints of it yet.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:08 Um, but working towards that, um, even when we can't see it and doing it in such away.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:12 Uh, the love and respect part is like where, where I fall short sometimes.
01:06:12 --> 01:06:15 Cause I am the, you know, the Jew from Jersey that gets all spicy,
01:06:16 --> 01:06:20 you know, but it's all right. We can, we can do it. We can, we can do it. We can do it.
01:06:21 --> 01:06:24 All right. Thank you so much. And hope to have you back again soon.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:27 Dennis, this is great, man. It's great to see you. Thanks for,
01:06:28 --> 01:06:29 thanks so much for including me in the conversation.
01:06:59 --> 01:07:04 So what were your thoughts of my chat with Corey? What do you think about his
01:07:04 --> 01:07:09 take on this version of Trump derangement syndrome? I'd love to hear what you're thinking.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:16 Send me an email at churchinmain.subsec.com, and I'd love to hear more.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:21 If you want to know more about this podcast, listen to past episodes,
01:07:21 --> 01:07:28 or donate, visit churchinmain.org. But you can also visit churchandmain.substack.com
01:07:28 --> 01:07:30 to read related articles.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:38 Just to let you know, I do post these episodes on my Substack a few days after publication.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:40 And you can also donate there.
01:07:40 --> 01:07:44 I don't do a paywall, but if you want, you can make a donation.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:47 It's $5 a month or $60 a year.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:54 I hope that you would also consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.
01:07:54 --> 01:07:58 And please consider leaving a review. That helps others find the podcast.
01:07:59 --> 01:08:08 Just one note, I will put in links to Corey's article in The Dispatch and also
01:08:08 --> 01:08:12 links to his podcast. That is it for this episode of Church in Maine.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:13 I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
01:08:13 --> 01:08:17 Thank you so much for listening. Take care, everyone. Godspeed,
01:08:17 --> 01:08:19 and I will see you very soon.