Episode 164: Mainline Church Growth with Paul Moore

WEBVTT

00:00:01.457 --> 00:00:05.177
On this episode, I don't talk to a Lutheran. 

00:00:05.797 --> 00:00:11.057
This time, I talk to a Presbyterian pastor about the best way to grow mainline 

00:00:11.057 --> 00:00:14.257
Protestant churches by focusing on the youth. 

00:00:15.177 --> 00:00:16.657
This is Church and Main. 

00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:51.760
Music. 

00:00:51.717 --> 00:00:56.137
Hello and welcome to Church and Main, the podcast at the intersection of faith and modern life. 

00:00:56.317 --> 00:01:00.497
I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Church and Main is a podcast that looks for God 

00:01:00.497 --> 00:01:04.777
in the midst of issues affecting the church and the larger society. 

00:01:05.217 --> 00:01:08.097
You can learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes, 

00:01:08.277 --> 00:01:17.777
and donate by checking us out at churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com. 

00:01:17.897 --> 00:01:23.497
Consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite app and leave a review. 

00:01:24.237 --> 00:01:25.897
That helps others find the podcast. 

00:01:27.697 --> 00:01:32.337
So, this past summer, as I've probably shared before, I attended the General 

00:01:32.337 --> 00:01:34.197
Assembly of the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, 

00:01:34.797 --> 00:01:41.577
which is my denomination, and they had their semi, I think it's semiannual, 

00:01:41.877 --> 00:01:43.897
meeting in Louisville, Kentucky. 

00:01:44.817 --> 00:01:48.697
It's always a great time to catch up with other members of the church from across 

00:01:48.697 --> 00:01:50.477
North America, the United States and Canada. 

00:01:51.277 --> 00:01:55.557
And I remember chatting with two pastors, They're both from my home state of Michigan. 

00:01:56.257 --> 00:02:00.997
And so I just kind of wanted to know how things were going with disciples back home. 

00:02:01.477 --> 00:02:07.197
And the outlook wasn't that great. I heard a lot of stories of churches that 

00:02:07.197 --> 00:02:10.397
were struggling and churches that were closing. 

00:02:11.637 --> 00:02:16.337
And that made me think about what ministry has been like here for disciples 

00:02:16.337 --> 00:02:21.597
in Minnesota, which I've seen a number of churches close, especially in the last decade or so. 

00:02:22.657 --> 00:02:27.417
And sadly, this is a picture that has been repeated again and again within a 

00:02:27.417 --> 00:02:31.677
lot of the mainline Protestant denominations as churches shrink and close. 

00:02:32.797 --> 00:02:38.157
And this is probably also a situation in evangelical churches as well. 

00:02:39.977 --> 00:02:44.157
The interesting thing is that many of the church planting movements, 

00:02:44.537 --> 00:02:49.917
especially that may have been very strong in the 80s and maybe the 90s in any 

00:02:49.917 --> 00:02:54.137
of these denominations are either kind of anemic, 

00:02:54.717 --> 00:02:56.517
or they're non-existent. 

00:02:57.806 --> 00:03:05.106
Now, Paul Moore is a Presbyterian pastor of a congregation in suburban Blaine, 

00:03:05.226 --> 00:03:08.866
Minnesota, and he recently preached at his home congregation, 

00:03:09.486 --> 00:03:13.246
which is a Presbyterian Church USA congregation in southwestern Minnesota. 

00:03:15.466 --> 00:03:20.166
The congregation basically recently sold their large building to a Pentecostal 

00:03:20.166 --> 00:03:25.386
congregation, congregation, and that congregation is going to swap their smaller 

00:03:25.386 --> 00:03:27.146
building with the Presbyterian church. 

00:03:28.206 --> 00:03:34.906
Paul notes that in a blog post that the sanctuary used to be filled with hundreds of people. 

00:03:36.726 --> 00:03:42.446
And when he preached there this past fall, there were less than 50 in attendance. 

00:03:43.306 --> 00:03:47.566
Writing in his blog, he notes that what's happening to his home congregation 

00:03:47.566 --> 00:03:52.826
is taking place throughout the Presbyterian Church USA. 

00:03:54.066 --> 00:04:01.646
In 2022, the Presbyterian Church USA had 747 fewer congregations and about 340,000 

00:04:01.646 --> 00:04:03.646
fewer members than in 2016. 

00:04:05.046 --> 00:04:08.906
No business would tolerate that without making significant changes, 

00:04:09.526 --> 00:04:12.466
he wrote in his November blog posts. 

00:04:13.086 --> 00:04:18.246
But he also observes that while a business wouldn't tolerate these losses, 

00:04:18.606 --> 00:04:23.206
there isn't much movement in the denomination to change things. 

00:04:24.106 --> 00:04:28.686
He continues, though these statistics are shared every year, 

00:04:29.086 --> 00:04:34.066
I'm almost astonished that these statistics haven't been a clarion call to focus 

00:04:34.066 --> 00:04:36.786
more on church growth as a denomination. 

00:04:38.026 --> 00:04:44.886
So, in this episode, I talk to Paul about why there hasn't been a call towards 

00:04:44.886 --> 00:04:51.646
church growth and also how he and his congregation are responding to the changes 

00:04:51.646 --> 00:04:54.066
that are taking place in his denomination. 

00:04:55.506 --> 00:05:00.006
Paul Moore has been the pastor of Chain of Lakes Presbyterian Church in Blaine, 

00:05:00.246 --> 00:05:04.766
Minnesota, which is a church plant, since 2009. 

00:05:04.766 --> 00:05:09.886
And before that, he was pastor of Community Presbyterian Church in Plainview, 

00:05:10.006 --> 00:05:13.366
Minnesota, that's in Southeastern Minnesota, for 16 years. 

00:05:13.926 --> 00:05:19.406
He has a BA from Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota, and his Master's 

00:05:19.406 --> 00:05:22.106
of Divinity from Union Seminary in New York. 

00:05:22.986 --> 00:05:25.266
This is the second time, actually, he's been on the podcast, 

00:05:25.266 --> 00:05:30.386
and I'll put a link to his past interview in the show notes where we actually 

00:05:30.386 --> 00:05:32.106
do talk about church planting. 

00:05:33.346 --> 00:05:39.406
But for now, let's listen to this episode, this new episode with Paul Moore. 

00:05:39.920 --> 00:06:14.800
Music. 

00:06:15.101 --> 00:06:19.541
All right. Well, Paul, it is good to have you back on the podcast. 

00:06:20.181 --> 00:06:22.681
It's good to be here. Now, when was the last time I was here? I don't remember. 

00:06:23.901 --> 00:06:28.121
It was maybe spring of 2022. Oh, okay. 

00:06:28.321 --> 00:06:33.861
That's not too long ago. Yeah. Somehow, to me, it seems like it's like a decade ago or something. 

00:06:34.781 --> 00:06:38.101
But yeah, I think it was around spring of 2022. 

00:06:39.061 --> 00:06:43.201
We talked a little bit about church planning about that one. Okay. 

00:06:43.901 --> 00:06:50.841
Nice. I'll have to go back and look. I'm sure, yeah, I'll go back and look on your podcast, but yeah. 

00:06:51.301 --> 00:06:57.221
So the reason I had you on is because you wrote two blog posts on your blog 

00:06:57.221 --> 00:07:00.381
that even you said got a lot of traffic. 

00:07:02.081 --> 00:07:09.081
And kind of recounting about church growth in mainline Protestantism, 

00:07:09.121 --> 00:07:12.921
but especially, of course, in your denomination, Presbyterian Church USA. 

00:07:13.761 --> 00:07:19.001
I think the first thing I wanted to talk to you about is, you kind of focused 

00:07:19.001 --> 00:07:24.361
it on an event that you took part in, and that was preaching at your home church 

00:07:24.361 --> 00:07:25.901
in Worthington, Minnesota. 

00:07:27.241 --> 00:07:31.261
So can you kind of explain a little bit about your home church? Oh, I absolutely can. 

00:07:31.681 --> 00:07:37.761
So I grew up in Worthington, Minnesota, and I went to church at Westminster Presbyterian Church. 

00:07:38.461 --> 00:07:43.401
That's the church I knew as a child, as a youth, as a young adult. 

00:07:43.541 --> 00:07:44.821
I was ordained in that church. 

00:07:45.901 --> 00:07:52.641
I officiated my sister's wedding in that church. My sister was ordained in that church. 

00:07:53.221 --> 00:07:59.641
So this church is a very important part of my life and my faith life. 

00:07:59.681 --> 00:08:02.561
My parents are still alive and they still go to that. 

00:08:02.681 --> 00:08:07.881
They still attend the church. In fact, my dad's on the session right now. 

00:08:08.901 --> 00:08:12.661
So Westminster celebrated their 150th anniversary this year. 

00:08:12.941 --> 00:08:18.461
And I wasn't able to go to the celebration as we had a big event that weekend 

00:08:18.461 --> 00:08:21.061
at the church that I serve, Channel Lakes Church. 

00:08:21.341 --> 00:08:25.281
But I told their pastor, Pastor Galen, 

00:08:25.441 --> 00:08:30.901
that I would be willing to come and preach on a Sunday, which I did. 

00:08:31.361 --> 00:08:36.021
It was, I don't have my dates exactly in front of me, but it's, 

00:08:36.121 --> 00:08:37.361
I don't know, but within the last month. 

00:08:38.161 --> 00:08:40.921
So at any rate, Westminster's gone through a big transition. 

00:08:42.321 --> 00:08:47.701
They just recently sold their building to a Pentecostal church in town, 

00:08:48.301 --> 00:08:50.561
and basically they exchanged buildings. 

00:08:51.421 --> 00:08:57.981
And Westminster though is going to receive, I mean, the building that they're selling is is. 

00:08:59.202 --> 00:09:05.442
Much larger than the building where they're going so that they're going to get some money behind that, 

00:09:06.262 --> 00:09:10.982
But and I knew everything that I experienced at Westminster that day that I 

00:09:10.982 --> 00:09:12.722
preached was not a surprise, 

00:09:13.522 --> 00:09:17.622
as you know, I talked to my parents all the time and You know, 

00:09:17.782 --> 00:09:21.562
we're I'm a definitely a church nerd and I don't know my parents are but we 

00:09:21.562 --> 00:09:24.262
talked about that church frequently, 

00:09:25.122 --> 00:09:29.722
So, you know, when, so as a church that's gone through significant decline, 

00:09:30.282 --> 00:09:31.862
and it's very hard, 

00:09:32.662 --> 00:09:36.962
you know, and I just want to say, as I talk about decline, and as I talk about 

00:09:36.962 --> 00:09:42.102
growth, um, you know, I really share from a sense of sadness, 

00:09:42.102 --> 00:09:46.762
more than a sense of anger, or frustration. 

00:09:46.762 --> 00:09:48.682
I mean, I do have some frustration. 

00:09:50.002 --> 00:09:54.922
And I know that I'm not really trying to poke the bear, if you would, 

00:09:55.522 --> 00:09:58.402
that's not really what I'm about or what my ministry is about. 

00:09:58.902 --> 00:10:01.522
But I think we also have to look at reality. 

00:10:03.102 --> 00:10:07.602
And so I'm not trying to push anybody's buttons. And so Westminster has gone 

00:10:07.602 --> 00:10:08.842
through significant decline. 

00:10:09.282 --> 00:10:14.122
And when my parents moved to Worthington in 1963. 

00:10:16.022 --> 00:10:21.682
And that building was built, I don't know, probably in the late fifties, 

00:10:22.242 --> 00:10:28.182
and it's a sanctuary of 650 people in a town of 10,000. 

00:10:29.222 --> 00:10:33.682
And when my parents moved there, my dad, this is all from my dad, 

00:10:33.702 --> 00:10:36.142
he said, you know, it was full every Sunday. 

00:10:37.174 --> 00:10:43.654
In fact, they were setting up chairs at this church. 

00:10:43.994 --> 00:10:47.474
And this is a very large building. 

00:10:47.934 --> 00:10:54.314
It's probably the largest Presbyterian church building that I know of to tell 

00:10:54.314 --> 00:10:57.674
you, it might even be bigger than like a Westminster, just the building. 

00:10:58.634 --> 00:11:02.874
So it's a very large building and they probably, but at the time it was full. 

00:11:03.814 --> 00:11:09.874
And so I just, um, so then going back to my home church and preaching on Sunday, 

00:11:09.934 --> 00:11:11.874
you know, there's probably 50 people there. 

00:11:13.414 --> 00:11:20.074
No children, maybe one child, uh, and a congregation moving and, 

00:11:20.234 --> 00:11:25.074
and again, I have to say I'm in full support of what they're doing with the 

00:11:25.074 --> 00:11:26.594
building and, and downsizing. 

00:11:27.014 --> 00:11:32.634
And of course, churches are not about buildings. But I just had this very great 

00:11:32.634 --> 00:11:39.314
sense of sadness about what's happened to this faith community that's very important 

00:11:39.314 --> 00:11:43.754
to me and very important in my own, 

00:11:44.114 --> 00:11:48.434
was very important in my own spiritual life and the spiritual life of my family. 

00:11:49.154 --> 00:11:53.934
Some of our, like I said, some of the most significant events of my faith life 

00:11:53.934 --> 00:11:55.074
have occurred in that sanctuary. 

00:11:56.614 --> 00:12:04.874
So that's what led me to write that blog on my home church. 

00:12:06.174 --> 00:12:13.754
One of the things that I find always interesting about Presbyterians is you 

00:12:13.754 --> 00:12:15.274
all are great record keepers. 

00:12:16.054 --> 00:12:21.074
Right! I mean, the whole indecent and in order really, you live it out. 

00:12:21.074 --> 00:12:25.854
And so, one of the things that's always fascinating on the website, 

00:12:26.074 --> 00:12:28.294
if you go there, is there are statistics, 

00:12:29.114 --> 00:12:35.314
and in your blog post you actually cite that, and that in some ways you can 

00:12:35.314 --> 00:12:39.734
kind of map the decline of the denomination, 

00:12:40.534 --> 00:12:45.654
but you could even map the decline of individual congregations in looking at that. 

00:12:45.654 --> 00:12:53.174
And I think one of the things that didn't anger you, but I think puzzled you, 

00:12:53.794 --> 00:13:00.994
it seems, is that there wasn't as much consternation or maybe disturbance about 

00:13:00.994 --> 00:13:03.634
the fact that there is this decline. 

00:13:04.334 --> 00:13:08.574
Yeah, so what concerns me about that is it just feels to me, 

00:13:08.974 --> 00:13:15.134
and again, I'm not really trying to poke anybody or poke the bear, if there is a bear, 

00:13:15.734 --> 00:13:20.394
but I just think that we as Presbyterians have come to accept that as our reality. 

00:13:21.694 --> 00:13:28.074
And there doesn't seem to be this impetus to change it. 

00:13:30.834 --> 00:13:36.534
And that's what is frustrating. Now, if we were a business, nobody would accept this. 

00:13:37.967 --> 00:13:43.687
It was, uh, because, you know, and I'm not calling for this, 

00:13:43.767 --> 00:13:48.987
but I mean, you know, the, the CEO and the board, they'd get fired immediately. 

00:13:51.227 --> 00:13:59.387
Um, so, but we, I think as Presidents have come to accept our decline and, 

00:13:59.687 --> 00:14:03.627
um, you know, we might make fun of it or make jokes or, uh, 

00:14:03.847 --> 00:14:09.287
and I mean, it's a big, it's a very big thing to reverse the decline, 

00:14:09.427 --> 00:14:14.007
but I'm and you know, I certainly I'd love to be a voice for growth in the press 

00:14:14.007 --> 00:14:18.067
chain PC USA, you know, my focus is on channel lakes. 

00:14:18.687 --> 00:14:22.527
Um, and that's where we're trying to grow. Oh, and we are growing. 

00:14:22.927 --> 00:14:28.187
Um, but that's, yeah, yeah, we are. 

00:14:29.967 --> 00:14:43.247
Yeah, I mean, it just doesn't seem to resonate, this kind of clarion call for, we need to grow. 

00:14:44.247 --> 00:14:47.647
Why do you think that that is? Because it's not just a Presbyterian thing. 

00:14:47.747 --> 00:14:51.967
I see that in my own denomination, and I see that across many other, 

00:14:52.187 --> 00:14:54.247
especially mainline Protestant denominations. 

00:14:54.727 --> 00:14:58.667
Why do you think— But, well, many 

00:14:58.667 --> 00:15:04.147
people who are much smarter than me have written a lot more about this. 

00:15:04.987 --> 00:15:09.927
So I just share my perspectives as a frontline pastor. 

00:15:11.867 --> 00:15:16.007
And I wanna say everything I do with a sense of humility, but I think we've 

00:15:16.007 --> 00:15:19.947
just come to accept it, that this is our reality. 

00:15:20.207 --> 00:15:24.147
So why do we accept that? Because I don't think we really know what to do. 

00:15:25.327 --> 00:15:31.067
And I think that we've kind of accepted the secularism, the secular, 

00:15:31.267 --> 00:15:36.427
I mean, I'm not finding the right word, but how our culture is moving to a more secular society. 

00:15:37.047 --> 00:15:42.427
Even though there are many churches who are growing, and there are many denominations, 

00:15:43.127 --> 00:15:46.827
I don't know many, but there are people who, denominations who are growing. 

00:15:47.587 --> 00:15:52.367
And I just don't think we know what to do because it's really hard work. 

00:15:54.147 --> 00:15:58.047
So I don't know. I don't have a great, I don't know why we accept it. 

00:15:58.867 --> 00:16:02.867
But I just think that we have. And, um... 

00:16:04.794 --> 00:16:09.754
I don't know. I mean, I can speak on my church. You know, if that happened to 

00:16:09.754 --> 00:16:12.514
my church, first, first of all, I'd get fired. 

00:16:14.334 --> 00:16:17.434
Well, maybe I could hang on to my job, but I highly doubt it. 

00:16:18.914 --> 00:16:23.274
So, you know, we haven't had fantastic growth at Chain of Lakes. 

00:16:23.414 --> 00:16:27.094
I mean, we average, you know, we started from scratch 14 years ago. 

00:16:27.234 --> 00:16:29.934
We average, you know, 65 to 70. 

00:16:30.854 --> 00:16:35.114
But on a Sunday, But if you came here, you would, and again, 

00:16:35.174 --> 00:16:37.774
I say this without humility. No, no, there's no pride. 

00:16:38.814 --> 00:16:42.394
Um, but if you came here, you would experience a great sense of vibrancy. 

00:16:43.154 --> 00:16:50.014
And energy and, um, a lot and a lot of ministry and people's lives are being 

00:16:50.014 --> 00:16:54.154
touched, um, and it's, it's really exciting. 

00:16:54.154 --> 00:16:58.874
And I think that we're at channel lakes, actually, we're on the precipice for 

00:16:58.874 --> 00:17:01.234
some significant growth. I think we're going to. 

00:17:02.034 --> 00:17:04.494
And I'm really excited about that. 

00:17:06.394 --> 00:17:11.234
So anyway, I feel like I'm kind of ranting, or drifting, but... Tom Blissey No, no. 

00:17:11.734 --> 00:17:18.474
But I think, you know, the other side of that is the concept of church growth, 

00:17:18.514 --> 00:17:23.614
and you even shared this, seems to also be something that people are wary of. 

00:17:24.274 --> 00:17:28.114
Why do you think that is? I think it's because a couple of things. 

00:17:28.594 --> 00:17:35.874
So our denomination is is more on the left side And we and so we those folks 

00:17:35.874 --> 00:17:41.914
who are on the left don't really think that church growth is all that important and, 

00:17:42.794 --> 00:17:46.774
You know, they certainly don't worry about people's well, 

00:17:47.754 --> 00:17:51.854
I'm projecting but it doesn't seem that there's a great sense of concern about 

00:17:51.854 --> 00:18:00.274
like somebody's salvation and And we don't want to be like a Billy Graham type of place where, 

00:18:00.434 --> 00:18:03.234
you know, you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior immediately and, 

00:18:03.314 --> 00:18:04.874
you know, convert or you're going to go to hell. 

00:18:07.194 --> 00:18:14.494
So I think that those are a number of reasons that I think that we haven't done 

00:18:14.494 --> 00:18:18.634
a great job at growing and have just kind of come to accept it. 

00:18:22.110 --> 00:18:28.810
So, one of the things in your second blog post that you talked about was about growing young. 

00:18:29.510 --> 00:18:34.150
And you kind of had this interesting proposal that in some ways you're kind 

00:18:34.150 --> 00:18:40.370
of living out at Chain of Lakes to focus on youth and family. 

00:18:41.790 --> 00:18:46.350
And you even noted that earlier when you talked about Westminster and Worthington 

00:18:46.350 --> 00:18:48.190
that there weren't any kids there. 

00:18:50.050 --> 00:18:54.550
What is so special about focusing on youth and family and how is that the key 

00:18:54.550 --> 00:18:57.650
to growth? Because that's where a lot of vibrancy has to come. 

00:18:58.290 --> 00:19:02.030
Because we're a congregation, we're a denomination that's old and elderly. 

00:19:03.870 --> 00:19:06.950
And people have been talking about this for a long time. 

00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:11.270
And there are a lot of people who are doing really good work on youth and children's 

00:19:11.270 --> 00:19:13.210
ministry. So again, I'm not trying to poke the bear. 

00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:18.770
But we have to get young. I mean, it's just, it's all, I mean, 

00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:21.230
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

00:19:22.270 --> 00:19:29.310
We have to do that. And I think part of the frustration is we've had a significant 

00:19:29.310 --> 00:19:35.950
focus within our wider denomination on Matthew 25, kind of a social justice movement. 

00:19:35.990 --> 00:19:39.590
And I think that's wonderful to focus on social justice ministries. 

00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:41.570
And we've done that at Chena Lakes a a lot. 

00:19:41.770 --> 00:19:44.450
In fact, we're known for that in the wider community. 

00:19:46.010 --> 00:19:50.270
And I was just throwing out because I'm a, you know, one of my gifts, 

00:19:50.410 --> 00:19:54.130
I don't know if it's a spiritual gift, but one of my gifts is kind of vision 

00:19:54.130 --> 00:19:56.430
and dreaming about the future. 

00:19:56.770 --> 00:20:02.790
So what if we intentionally try to get young and try to really focus for five 

00:20:02.790 --> 00:20:09.030
years on getting young, relating to youth, relating to children and growing 

00:20:09.030 --> 00:20:10.810
in that ministry, relating to families. 

00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:16.670
Now, that's not going to work everywhere. I get that. But, and... 

00:20:18.189 --> 00:20:22.089
You know, I think, you know, if if you accept the fact that there's a lot of 

00:20:22.089 --> 00:20:25.289
people who aren't going to church, even in places that aren't growing, 

00:20:25.589 --> 00:20:28.189
there are many young people who aren't going to church. 

00:20:29.009 --> 00:20:33.969
And so I think that and I think it's very hard. 

00:20:34.489 --> 00:20:38.409
I don't think it's easy. Like the church that I served before in Plainview, 

00:20:38.449 --> 00:20:40.389
Minnesota, when I came there, we had like five. 

00:20:40.849 --> 00:20:46.129
We had hardly any kids when I first came there. And when I left, we had, I think, 30 to 40. 

00:20:48.489 --> 00:20:52.309
So I know that it can be done, even if you don't have children. 

00:20:53.129 --> 00:20:56.809
Now, Channel 8, if you came here, we don't have this fabulous, 

00:20:57.309 --> 00:21:01.409
I shouldn't say this, we don't have a huge number of youth and children. 

00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:05.469
But it will grow. I am very confident about that. 

00:21:07.049 --> 00:21:13.249
So, I think that, you know, if we can have a denominational focus on Matthew 

00:21:13.249 --> 00:21:18.409
25, why can't we have a denominational focus on serving our youth and children? 

00:21:20.129 --> 00:21:23.069
And it makes so much sense to me. 

00:21:26.469 --> 00:21:29.269
That's, that, it was my, and it's still my passion. 

00:21:29.449 --> 00:21:34.669
I still believe it. And again, no criticism of people in the wider denomination 

00:21:34.669 --> 00:21:38.229
or organizations who are doing a lot of really good work. 

00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:44.229
But I don't think it's enough. I don't think we have enough of a focus. 

00:21:46.249 --> 00:21:50.049
Tom P. Davis Do you think that there is, especially in denominations, kind of a, 

00:21:51.229 --> 00:21:57.089
well, it seems like you've even kind of talked about this in a way that there 

00:21:57.089 --> 00:22:03.449
isn't a good sense of resourcing congregations and helping them, 

00:22:04.389 --> 00:22:07.169
and that there is a focus on social justice. 

00:22:07.289 --> 00:22:10.549
And I think that that obviously, as part of the heritage of a lot of mainline 

00:22:10.549 --> 00:22:16.949
denominations, it's important, but it also feels like it's putting the cart before the horse. Yep. 

00:22:18.154 --> 00:22:23.774
For sure. And, you know, I talked about this in my blog, you know, in terms of resourcing. 

00:22:24.374 --> 00:22:28.114
I don't think congregations have been resourced well by our wider governing 

00:22:28.114 --> 00:22:32.194
bodies. And I'm not talking about money, though money helps. 

00:22:32.754 --> 00:22:35.394
But I think what I'm talking about is focused. 

00:22:36.334 --> 00:22:42.494
Focus. Success stories. The willingness to talk about what's working, what's not working. 

00:22:43.574 --> 00:22:48.934
You know, the expectation that we're going to have be successful. 

00:22:49.834 --> 00:22:52.554
You know, I expect, I expect Tina to grow every year. 

00:22:54.254 --> 00:23:00.894
I mean, that's just what I expect. So it's that sort of resourcing that I think 

00:23:00.894 --> 00:23:01.994
congregations really need. 

00:23:02.054 --> 00:23:06.494
So like Westminster, like my dad, who's, I mean, my parents, 

00:23:06.574 --> 00:23:08.514
they care deeply about this congregation. 

00:23:09.114 --> 00:23:13.214
You know, they're both in their 80s. You know, they would say, 

00:23:13.314 --> 00:23:14.894
we don't have any kids. What are we going to do? 

00:23:15.834 --> 00:23:19.434
Well, those are the questions that we have to address. What are you going to 

00:23:19.434 --> 00:23:23.194
do if you don't have any kids? Are you just going to give up? I hope not. 

00:23:24.254 --> 00:23:32.494
I hope that there are things that we can do to help congregations grow in children and youth. 

00:23:32.574 --> 00:23:35.994
And it's not about a number. I mean, that's always kind of the pushback. 

00:23:37.274 --> 00:23:43.554
No, numbers are about lives and about people and about people's faith life and 

00:23:43.554 --> 00:23:45.334
about their involvement in the community. 

00:23:45.854 --> 00:23:51.654
So if Chain of Legs didn't exist, we couldn't have a ministry with the homeless 

00:23:51.654 --> 00:23:52.694
organizations that we do. 

00:23:53.514 --> 00:24:00.014
So, I mean, you can't separate, you know, social justice and congregational 

00:24:00.014 --> 00:24:02.014
growth. they all go together. 

00:24:02.414 --> 00:24:06.094
And you can't separate that from like youth and children's ministry, 

00:24:06.294 --> 00:24:07.574
they're still together. 

00:24:08.354 --> 00:24:14.974
And in terms of resources, I just think there has to be a much greater focus. 

00:24:15.594 --> 00:24:18.954
That's where I always start, is let's focus there. 

00:24:20.314 --> 00:24:28.894
I feel like I'm ranting, but, um, but yeah, so I think, I just think that, 

00:24:28.934 --> 00:24:33.454
um, we have to focus on youth and children. 

00:24:34.194 --> 00:24:38.854
I'm very passionate about that. So at Chain of Lakes, what we've done, 

00:24:38.954 --> 00:24:44.234
um, so in the last year, we've spent the whole year working on this and we had 

00:24:44.234 --> 00:24:47.994
a staff person leave and he was doing a good job. he's 15 hours a week. 

00:24:48.334 --> 00:24:54.594
And I was like, you know, we could go back and try to hire somebody at 15 hours a week. 

00:24:54.674 --> 00:25:00.634
But what happens to us is that person might want to, will probably want a full-time job. 

00:25:00.854 --> 00:25:03.274
And we can't offer that right now. 

00:25:04.174 --> 00:25:11.274
So we need to figure out how to sustain a staff person with youth and children. 

00:25:11.354 --> 00:25:14.074
And not every congregation, it's not like you have to have a staff person. 

00:25:14.354 --> 00:25:19.234
But for us, I've always found it to be very helpful, having the right staff. 

00:25:20.074 --> 00:25:23.454
So we spent the whole summer at Channel Lakes. 

00:25:23.554 --> 00:25:29.774
We had a task force, and we looked at our history with youth and children. 

00:25:30.154 --> 00:25:33.134
We did a deep kind of analysis of ourselves. 

00:25:34.634 --> 00:25:41.274
We're in an area where we should have a large number of youth and children come 

00:25:41.274 --> 00:25:43.494
to Channel Lakes. That's just the reality. 

00:25:45.214 --> 00:25:48.174
And so we talked about that, what would it look like? 

00:25:48.854 --> 00:25:53.654
And we realized that, and we talked to some other churches who have successful ministries. 

00:25:54.388 --> 00:25:58.288
And we came to realize that we need, I mean, and everybody did buy in, 

00:25:58.548 --> 00:26:01.348
that we need to increase the staff person to 30 hours a week, 

00:26:01.448 --> 00:26:08.368
still not full-time, but at least that could be the primary part of that person's work. 

00:26:09.768 --> 00:26:13.488
And we had somebody, so, and it's $20,000 extra. 

00:26:14.328 --> 00:26:18.908
So it's a big, it's not insignificant financially for us. A big commitment. 

00:26:19.768 --> 00:26:23.568
And commitment. And the leaders have to buy in. 

00:26:24.988 --> 00:26:28.408
So, and I give our congregation a lot of credit. We spent a lot of time, 

00:26:28.468 --> 00:26:30.928
we talked about it, we had this task force, our session, 

00:26:32.088 --> 00:26:36.388
talked about it for two meetings, and they looked at the pros and the cons of 

00:26:36.388 --> 00:26:40.588
doing nothing, of staying where we were, or going to 30 hours, 

00:26:40.688 --> 00:26:42.328
and they unanimously agreed to do it. 

00:26:42.628 --> 00:26:46.808
And that led us into our stewardship drive, which has been so far successful. 

00:26:47.588 --> 00:26:51.528
And we just hired somebody, it was a person actually who was already on our 

00:26:51.528 --> 00:26:54.428
staff, who's, and she's going to be terrific. 

00:26:55.568 --> 00:27:02.708
So, you know, and I, that's why I'm, you know, I'm not trying to come across 

00:27:02.708 --> 00:27:08.328
as arrogant at all or prideful, but I am confident that we will grow with those ministries. 

00:27:08.408 --> 00:27:12.528
And it took, it took a year of focus for us to do that. 

00:27:13.468 --> 00:27:16.448
And, and we're going to continue to have to focus on that. 

00:27:17.708 --> 00:27:20.648
And I'm really excited to see what's going to happen. 

00:27:21.828 --> 00:27:25.708
I mean, have you noticed that other churches that are growing, 

00:27:26.268 --> 00:27:28.788
that that has been their focus because I. Oh, sure. 

00:27:29.148 --> 00:27:32.108
Yeah. I mean, I think youth and children has to be a focus, for sure, 

00:27:32.248 --> 00:27:36.688
for growing churches. I don't think that I think creationists can grow in a lot of different ways. 

00:27:37.148 --> 00:27:42.428
And I don't think they, I don't think youth and children has to be the primary driver of that. 

00:27:42.528 --> 00:27:46.648
But I do think that certainly it's important, definitely is important. 

00:27:47.148 --> 00:27:49.068
I mean, it is. It makes so much sense. 

00:27:49.868 --> 00:27:54.108
Yeah, the reason I ask is because I am even thinking about my, um... 

00:27:54.991 --> 00:28:00.491
My husband is the music director at a Methodist congregation in the South Metro 

00:28:00.491 --> 00:28:06.251
in Eagan, and they have really invested in children and youth. 

00:28:06.551 --> 00:28:12.151
They have a deacon that does something, and then another person who isn't a 

00:28:12.151 --> 00:28:16.071
deacon but has all the classes and everything. 

00:28:16.711 --> 00:28:21.071
But But they have, I think, a fairly strong children and youth ministry, 

00:28:21.511 --> 00:28:29.111
and a growing congregation, which again, for another mainline congregation, 

00:28:29.691 --> 00:28:35.551
that's a rarity, but they are doing fairly well for themselves. 

00:28:36.171 --> 00:28:44.611
So that does seem to be a consistent theme for that. Right, and so to talk, 

00:28:45.171 --> 00:28:49.231
let me also, in addition, let me just share some more experiences from Chain of Lakes. 

00:28:49.951 --> 00:28:57.751
So we have really grown, really, well, it's not like we haven't had rapid growth, 

00:28:57.991 --> 00:28:59.491
but we've grown, we're growing. 

00:28:59.651 --> 00:29:06.951
I mean, COVID, like all churches, really hurt us a lot, but we're almost at our pre-COVID numbers. 

00:29:08.331 --> 00:29:14.391
And one piece that's really helped us is our support of the LGBTQ community. 

00:29:14.991 --> 00:29:18.631
We've had a large number of people who've come to Chain of Lakes, 

00:29:19.431 --> 00:29:28.931
who have come not only as LGBTQ people and also as heterosexuals who support 

00:29:28.931 --> 00:29:34.131
that issue and wouldn't go to a church that isn't supportive. So. 

00:29:35.988 --> 00:29:42.228
A lot of people actually. And that actually, I shouldn't say actually so much, 

00:29:42.308 --> 00:29:47.988
but that's been really our prime driver of our number growth. 

00:29:49.008 --> 00:29:56.208
And so in our community, there aren't a lot of churches who are supportive of LGBTQ. 

00:29:57.168 --> 00:30:04.328
So we've tried to kind of use that opportunity. 

00:30:04.768 --> 00:30:08.088
I mean, I wish all churches were, but I can't control the churches. 

00:30:10.088 --> 00:30:14.128
So that's really been helpful to us. So that has actually has nothing to do, 

00:30:14.848 --> 00:30:15.828
with youth and children. 

00:30:17.148 --> 00:30:20.688
And that's where I think that, you know, and traditionally, of course, 

00:30:20.908 --> 00:30:23.588
LGBTQ support would be seen as a justice issue. 

00:30:24.068 --> 00:30:29.408
And that's where I think that these, you can't separate evangelism from justice and growth. 

00:30:30.928 --> 00:30:35.848
We've had people who come to Channel Lakes because of our partnerships with 

00:30:35.848 --> 00:30:39.148
organizations who help homeless, people who are homeless. 

00:30:39.708 --> 00:30:43.948
And they just find that, they love that about our congregation. 

00:30:45.948 --> 00:30:52.628
So I think, I think what's important for congregations is to kind of identify 

00:30:52.628 --> 00:30:56.868
what their people are passionate about, and will Will that fit the, 

00:30:57.408 --> 00:31:00.748
and then can that fit the wider community in terms of growing? 

00:31:04.648 --> 00:31:10.408
So one of the things that I've also noticed every, and I haven't gone in several 

00:31:10.408 --> 00:31:15.528
years, but every year you go down to the Leadership Institute that is put together 

00:31:15.528 --> 00:31:17.188
by Church of the Resurrection, 

00:31:18.008 --> 00:31:21.688
which is a United Methodist Church in Kansas City. 

00:31:21.688 --> 00:31:30.908
And I think they are very much a model of a church that has grown and grown 

00:31:30.908 --> 00:31:34.428
astoundingly in many ways. 

00:31:35.368 --> 00:31:39.448
Yeah, it's a mega church. It's a mega, mega. Oh, yeah, yeah. 

00:31:39.448 --> 00:31:41.128
It's even beyond mega at this point. 

00:31:41.848 --> 00:31:48.448
But what are the things that in those experiences and in kind of knowing about 

00:31:48.448 --> 00:31:49.308
Church of the Resurrection, 

00:31:49.928 --> 00:31:57.268
what are things that can can be learned for congregations and how they can grow 

00:31:57.268 --> 00:32:03.288
in a way that is not just about numbers, 

00:32:03.348 --> 00:32:05.828
but it is really about trying to change lives. 

00:32:06.688 --> 00:32:08.448
Yes, definitely. 

00:32:09.768 --> 00:32:14.308
Now, totally, and the reason that we go to Church of the Resurrection every 

00:32:14.308 --> 00:32:17.848
year is, one, it's just a lot of fun. It is. 

00:32:18.208 --> 00:32:21.228
And I had decided, I've gone. 

00:32:22.449 --> 00:32:27.049
I have to go back and count probably 20 times. And I decided when I came to 

00:32:27.049 --> 00:32:31.609
Channel Lakes that I wasn't going to go by myself, that I was always going to bring a group. 

00:32:32.189 --> 00:32:38.109
And I think they're a good model for a mainline church who's had a lot of success 

00:32:38.109 --> 00:32:39.529
in a lot of different areas. 

00:32:39.689 --> 00:32:43.529
I mean, they've grown and they've grown in their numbers, they've grown in discipleship, 

00:32:43.669 --> 00:32:46.869
and they make a significant impact in the community. 

00:32:49.489 --> 00:32:54.329
And our folks, like this year, I think we brought, I don't know, five or six people. 

00:32:54.989 --> 00:32:58.349
Next year, I told our folks, I would love for us to rent a house. 

00:32:58.509 --> 00:33:03.389
I mean, let's get 10 to 15 to go and just rent an Airbnb. We can all hang out there. 

00:33:04.989 --> 00:33:10.189
And we always get ideas. There's always something that we bring back that's 

00:33:10.189 --> 00:33:12.309
helpful. And I think it's helpful 

00:33:12.309 --> 00:33:19.069
to just see places that have success and then try to learn from that. 

00:33:19.229 --> 00:33:22.569
We're not trying to become, obviously, I mean, we're not trying to become Church 

00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:27.149
of the Resurrection of Blaine, but we can adapt what works for them and put 

00:33:27.149 --> 00:33:28.809
it through the filter of our community. 

00:33:31.869 --> 00:33:36.649
And yeah, that's, I encourage anybody to go. 

00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:41.949
I mean, if there was a Presbyterian congregation that was doing what they're doing, I'd go there. 

00:33:44.269 --> 00:33:50.929
And, you know, it's important to see mainline churches that are very successful, 

00:33:51.469 --> 00:33:56.449
because there, I think, is a real, our sense of, I think we've lost, 

00:33:58.069 --> 00:33:59.289
I mean, I'm speaking very generally, 

00:33:59.429 --> 00:34:03.369
but I think we've lost a sense of confidence in living on a purpose. 

00:34:08.229 --> 00:34:11.809
So, the article that you wrote and asking about the five years, 

00:34:11.909 --> 00:34:15.689
and I said that it was getting some responses. What were the responses? 

00:34:16.429 --> 00:34:19.809
And... I didn't get a... Well, I actually didn't get a lot of emails or things, 

00:34:19.989 --> 00:34:23.789
but a lot of people, it was... A lot of people read my article, 

00:34:23.969 --> 00:34:25.889
or the blog that I wrote about my home church. 

00:34:27.529 --> 00:34:34.269
And it was very sensitive for me because there's just a lot of sadness there. 

00:34:35.729 --> 00:34:40.309
And it's the sadness of what's been lost. And I'm not even part of the church. 

00:34:41.149 --> 00:34:45.529
I mean, but my parents are, and I shared earlier why it's so important to me. 

00:34:45.929 --> 00:34:51.049
So I didn't get a lot of... that was the response, like it's just a lot of... 

00:34:51.049 --> 00:34:53.969
You know, I had hundreds of people read that blog. 

00:34:55.209 --> 00:35:02.329
And I didn't receive a lot of emails or contacts from people but I know a lot of people read it. 

00:35:04.913 --> 00:35:10.933
So one of the other questions that I have is, I mean, why is it so important 

00:35:10.933 --> 00:35:15.213
to have growing mainline churches? 

00:35:16.073 --> 00:35:20.633
And I think, go ahead, go ahead. Well, because I think the mainline church offers 

00:35:20.633 --> 00:35:22.013
something that's very significant. 

00:35:22.493 --> 00:35:27.473
So we offer this great opportunity to combine personal faith and social justice. 

00:35:27.833 --> 00:35:32.433
I mean, it's right here in the Presbyterian Church. We offer something where, 

00:35:32.433 --> 00:35:35.013
you know, lay people are significant leaders. 

00:35:35.173 --> 00:35:36.533
They don't have to rely on their 

00:35:36.533 --> 00:35:39.833
pastors, though pastors certainly have a very important role to play. 

00:35:40.133 --> 00:35:46.913
So you have a combination of pastors and elders, not old people, 

00:35:47.033 --> 00:35:49.633
but leaders working together to make an impact. 

00:35:49.953 --> 00:35:54.073
I mean, we have a great process, a form of government, not that, 

00:35:54.593 --> 00:35:59.033
you know, it's rare that, you know, that's another whole blog. 

00:35:59.033 --> 00:36:05.773
You know, we use our form of government as our model, and it's very significant, but it's healthy. 

00:36:06.053 --> 00:36:11.133
When it works well, it's healthy. And I think, you know, you're not going to 

00:36:11.133 --> 00:36:12.673
have authoritarian pastors. 

00:36:13.153 --> 00:36:17.733
I mean, you can, but we have a system that's going to prevent them, 

00:36:18.113 --> 00:36:22.793
hopefully, from causing damage, unlike other churches. 

00:36:22.793 --> 00:36:29.233
So there's just, you know, and like I always say, if you go to a town anywhere 

00:36:29.233 --> 00:36:33.913
in America of 10,000, anywhere in America and there's a Presbyterian church, 

00:36:34.293 --> 00:36:36.333
that Presbyterian church will be involved in the food shelf. 

00:36:37.653 --> 00:36:38.673
I guarantee it. 

00:36:39.770 --> 00:36:42.470
And that's significant. That's important. 

00:36:44.470 --> 00:36:52.330
And so I think there's just a lot. There's a lot that's important with a mainline church. 

00:36:53.270 --> 00:36:55.170
You know, we support women in leadership. 

00:36:56.290 --> 00:37:00.730
We're one of the few congregations in the Blaine area where a woman can be a pastor. 

00:37:01.170 --> 00:37:03.390
I mean, a woman's not going to share the sermon at Eagle Brook, 

00:37:03.630 --> 00:37:09.510
which is a large megachurch. A woman's not going to share a sermon at other churches, and we can. 

00:37:09.830 --> 00:37:14.090
We support the LGBTQ community with passion and support, I mean, 

00:37:14.190 --> 00:37:16.030
with passion and without apology. 

00:37:16.870 --> 00:37:19.410
And, you know, you're not going to find that in other places. 

00:37:19.410 --> 00:37:21.210
So there's something very special. 

00:37:21.710 --> 00:37:27.070
And if the PCUSA declines, and I mean, continues to decline, 

00:37:27.270 --> 00:37:31.730
that's not going to be offered in our communities. And that is, 

00:37:32.210 --> 00:37:36.350
you know, so, you know, I'm still a passionate Presbyterian. 

00:37:36.470 --> 00:37:40.370
I share often when people come, you know, cut me open, I bleed Presbyterian. 

00:37:40.950 --> 00:37:43.030
And because I'm on blood thinner, I bleed even faster. 

00:37:45.890 --> 00:37:49.310
So in, you know, we're not trying to make people Presbyterian. 

00:37:50.510 --> 00:37:57.130
When we have new folks come, I always share that the metaphor that I use for a denomination is a car. 

00:37:57.790 --> 00:38:01.910
We're riding in the Presbyterian car. And we're not trying to make you Presbyterian, 

00:38:01.990 --> 00:38:08.230
but we are going to share with you the parts of our car that are important. And without apology. 

00:38:08.690 --> 00:38:15.710
And that's just what we do. So, you know, that's my kind of fairly quick spiel 

00:38:15.710 --> 00:38:22.850
and why a Presbyterian slash mainline denomination is important for a community. 

00:38:24.241 --> 00:38:29.501
Yeah, and I think I bring that up is because we talk a lot about decline, 

00:38:29.761 --> 00:38:30.921
but we don't really understand. 

00:38:31.741 --> 00:38:34.461
I sometimes wonder if we don't understand what we're losing, 

00:38:34.761 --> 00:38:36.981
or what is it we want to conserve. 

00:38:38.001 --> 00:38:46.141
I think that that's important. If we don't have that, then that voice is not there. 

00:38:46.801 --> 00:38:49.301
And I think that that can have consequences. 

00:38:51.141 --> 00:38:53.981
Significant consequences. I cannot agree more. 

00:38:54.881 --> 00:39:00.821
Yeah. So if people would like to get in contact with you, they're wanting to 

00:39:00.821 --> 00:39:04.861
talk a little bit more about this, where can they contact you? 

00:39:05.261 --> 00:39:08.781
Oh yeah, they can always contact me at pastor at colprez.org. 

00:39:09.261 --> 00:39:11.761
You know, Chain of Lakes, colprez.org is our website. 

00:39:12.901 --> 00:39:16.321
I'm, you know, it's very easy to get in touch with me. always go to my Facebook 

00:39:16.321 --> 00:39:19.541
page. Those are three possibilities. 

00:39:20.561 --> 00:39:21.921
And I will always respond. 

00:39:23.261 --> 00:39:26.841
You know, I'm not gonna make, I'll always get back to people. 

00:39:27.481 --> 00:39:35.181
And, yeah, I, I still, I'm, I'm still discerning and praying what my own role is in this. 

00:39:35.401 --> 00:39:37.841
And I think there's something, I'm not sure what it is. 

00:39:38.341 --> 00:39:42.801
And I just, I'm really sensitive, because some of these questions, 

00:39:42.801 --> 00:39:45.321
people get defensive, and there's resistance. 

00:39:46.401 --> 00:39:52.341
And I'm not trying to, as I've said earlier, poke the bear, because I do this 

00:39:52.341 --> 00:39:56.421
out of really deep care and appreciation for what people are doing. 

00:39:56.961 --> 00:40:03.121
And we have to be ruthlessly honest about what's happening. 

00:40:05.741 --> 00:40:11.321
Yeah. And I think that that's been part of the problems that we haven't been honest. 

00:40:12.481 --> 00:40:19.941
I think we all know what's happening, but we're not, we haven't made the effort 

00:40:19.941 --> 00:40:23.281
to change those numbers. 

00:40:24.461 --> 00:40:29.041
And I think it's hard. I think it's It's very hard. It's hard work. It's very hard work. 

00:40:30.781 --> 00:40:36.981
But I think God's leading the way. And I think, you know, congregations that 

00:40:36.981 --> 00:40:42.201
have that spiritual energy, it's just beautiful. 

00:40:42.361 --> 00:40:46.961
I think God, I totally believe that God has something in store for, 

00:40:47.621 --> 00:40:49.081
I mean, I just think about Chain of Lakes. 

00:40:49.381 --> 00:40:51.701
I know that God has something in store for our congregation. 

00:40:52.181 --> 00:40:56.701
There's no doubt in my mind about that. and I would hope that we could get to 

00:40:56.701 --> 00:40:59.741
that place where we believe the same for PCOSA. 

00:41:00.901 --> 00:41:06.421
All right. I think that that is a hopeful note to end this conversation. 

00:41:07.281 --> 00:41:10.821
So, Paul, thanks so much for chatting with me again. Oh, yeah. 

00:41:10.941 --> 00:41:14.001
Thank you, Dennis. Thank you for your good work. Thank you for your podcast, 

00:41:14.401 --> 00:41:17.781
and thank you for inviting me to participate. 

00:41:17.921 --> 00:41:19.881
Thank you. All right. Take care. 

00:41:20.720 --> 00:41:55.120
Music. 

00:41:56.906 --> 00:42:01.346
Well, thanks for taking the time to listen. As usual, there are links of interest 

00:42:01.346 --> 00:42:07.006
related to this episode with Paul, so please do check out the show notes. 

00:42:08.106 --> 00:42:14.186
Also, I wanted to let you know about the other podcast that I do that's called Lectionary Q. 

00:42:14.886 --> 00:42:19.966
This podcast focuses on, usually on a text from the Revised Common Lectionary, 

00:42:20.046 --> 00:42:25.966
and what I do is I have a reflection and then I ask some questions to Q stands for questions. 

00:42:26.366 --> 00:42:30.506
I started actually last fall and, um, had it going for a while, 

00:42:30.506 --> 00:42:34.606
but, um, basically just stopped. I was just really too busy. 

00:42:35.126 --> 00:42:40.166
Um, and I'm trying to get it started again. And so you can, uh, 

00:42:40.166 --> 00:42:48.226
find and subscribe to the podcast by going to, uh, lectionary q dot substack.com. 

00:42:48.406 --> 00:42:52.026
And if you didn't get that, don't worry. It's also in the show notes. 

00:42:52.746 --> 00:42:55.646
So, that's it for this episode of Church in Maine. 

00:42:56.586 --> 00:43:00.806
As always, remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast 

00:43:00.806 --> 00:43:05.766
app so that others can find the podcast, and please consider sharing this podcast 

00:43:05.766 --> 00:43:06.806
with people that you know. 

00:43:07.966 --> 00:43:12.826
Also consider donating so that we can continue to produce more good episodes. 

00:43:14.386 --> 00:43:22.306
I hope that there should be another episode or two coming before the year closes, so do stay tuned. 

00:43:23.026 --> 00:43:25.986
But for this episode, I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. 

00:43:26.766 --> 00:43:32.506
Thank you so much again for listening. Take care, Godspeed, and I will see you very soon. 

00:43:33.520 --> 00:44:09.730
Music.