The 226th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) is set to meet soon in Salt Lake City. One of the many issues to be discussed is a proposal called the "Olympia Overture," which would formally prohibit discrimination against LGBTQ Presbyterians, but could according to some make it hard for those with different theological interpretations to remain in the denomination. In this episode, I talked with retired PC(USA) pastor and former editor of Presbyterian Outlook Jack Haberer about the proposal and what it would mean for the denomination.
Suggested Reading:
Embracing Diversity Without Exclusion (article by Jack Haberer)
Articles for and against the Olympia Overture
A Statement in Support of the Olympia Overture from Past Moderators and Vice Moderators
The Aftermath of the United Methodist General Conference with Drew McIntyre | Episode 187
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[0:18] Music.
[0:52] We'll be right back. Thank you. Hey, welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested at the intersection of faith and a modern world. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. This is the podcast for people that look at the world with a day's news in one hand and the Bible in another. If you want to learn more about the podcast, to listen to past episodes, or to donate, please check us out at churchinmaine.org. And you can also check us out at churchinmaine.substack.com to read related articles. And I hope that you would consider subscribing to the podcast. It makes it easy. When a new episode becomes available, it'll just end up right in your podcast app. And also, while you're at it, consider leaving a review. That really does, believe it or not, help others find this podcast. So for today's episode, a little bit of past history, personal personal past history here. From 2007 to about 2013, I was the communications specialist for the Presbytery of the Twin Cities area. That is a local body of the Presbyterian Church USA.
[1:59] In 2010, we, along with a few other Minnesota presbyteries, were the host of the biennial General Assembly that was held in Minneapolis that year. It was at that meeting that a proposal or what in Presbyterian speak is an overture was put forward that asked to lift the ban that there was on gay clergy, and that passed the General Assembly. Now, to be ratified, though, it had to win a majority of the Presbyteries. And ironically, that happened in April of 2011, when the Presbytery Twin Seas area was the Presbytery that put it over the top by voting in favor.
[2:49] So the next few years, both in the Presbyterian and in the denomination, were in many ways wonderful and wrenching. It was wonderful because gay clergy that were either had to, basically were forced to live in a closet, or people who were considering ordination but had to decide to go to another tradition, could now be ordained in the Presbyterian Church at USA and serve without fear. But this was also wrenching because it also meant that a lot of conservative congregations would choose to leave. Many of them would go to a new denomination that was forming at the time, the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians. And that just caused a lot of dissension and just difficulty for local presbyteries and probably, I would say, also for the leaving congregations as well. But that said, there were a number of conservatives that chose to stay in the Presbyterian USA. They found a way to continue to be and to worship even in a more progressive denomination.
[4:07] However, things might change if another overture passes at the upcoming General Assembly in Salt Lake City. Depending on who you talk to, the so-called Olympia Overture would either make sure that LGBTQ Presbyterians are not discriminated against, or it is a way to force inclusion and force theological conformity. So in this episode, I talk with Jack Haberer, who is a retired Presbyterian pastor. He's also the former editor of Presbyterian Outlook. We talk about the Olympia Overture, especially the second part, Part B, which is the one that is kind of causing all of the consternation. And also the challenges of seeking justice for a group of people who are long excluded from the life of the church, while also trying to make room for those who don't agree theologically.
[5:11] I think that this discussion is important not just for Presbyterians, and not even just for the Big C Church, but it's also for society as well. How do we tolerate those who have different views? and how do we balance both justice and pluralism. So I hope that you will join me and listen in to this fascinating discussion that I had with Jack Haberer.
[5:40] Music.
[6:15] Well, Jack, I am glad that you are able to join me, and I look forward to this discussion. Thank you, Dennis. It's been wonderful to be with you. I think the first thing, because a lot of people may not know who you are, is to kind of know a little bit about your background. I know that you had a good career with Presbyterian Outlook, but kind of share with the audience just a little bit about who you are. Okay. At heart, I'm a pastor. I was raised Roman Catholic. I became a Jesus freak in high school, got very much in the Christian rock and roll scene, playing in Christian rock bands as a keyboard and guitarist.
[7:00] And at 18 felt a clear call to be a pastor. Everything pastors did, I was already doing as a teenager in obviously a teenage level maturity, but still it's been a clear call. I bounced between one denomination after another, went ultimately to Gordon-Conwell Seminary, which was one denomination after another from Anglican to Assemblage of God, but hired to a Presbyterian church after seminary and they assumed I wanted to be ordained. So they started the call process.
[7:29] Or the care process before I even showed up. And when I got there, I didn't have the nerve to say, I don't really want to be Presbyterian. I just want to learn how to be a good pastor. So I kind of really went through the motions, but fell in love. I literally had a religious experience reading the Presbyterian Book of Order thing. Ah, where these people have been all my life. And it's now been 41 years since I was ordained and have loved being a pastor. But in the process of that, I also got engaged in caring for people going through a lot of struggle and including a number of, go fix that accordion lesbian that came out to me and i shared and loved and as part of my life in the church and um got drawn drawn into the more evangelical side of pcusa work but um in caring for the lgbtq community but not one saying that we should be affirming that practice as as a normal practice in the faith and um got involved in press turn coalition and press transfer renewal and working with those groups, but also in the process, debating folks into the side of the aisle and coming to realize a lot of them have just as genuine and serious a faith as I do, know and love the same Jesus and pray to the same God, and became a bridge builder between the factions.
[8:51] My most major book, God Views, The Convictions That Drive Us and Divide Us, being a reflection on the experience of building those bridges, then served on the Theological Task Force for Peace, Unity, and Purity for us, began to find a way for us to hold on to our differences and yet hold on to one another. That became kind of our byline as a group. So we came up with the notion of being able to scruple and acknowledge some points of disagreement with the policies of the church, including such matters as gay and lesbian matters, and opening the door for those who are openly gay and lesbian to acknowledge that and move into ordination. Later on, also served on and helped behind the scene. And by the way, that policy was adopted. It caused some fallout from some evangelicals that went and formed the Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians. Friends of mine that did that, sadly, but did, and I still hung in, got to working for Press Turn Outlook and helping do a lot more bridge building as the editor there for nine years. Then back to the pastorate, and in the process also helping folks figure out how we could make room for marriage for LGBT monogamous folks committed to living in the covenant relationship.
[10:15] And so I've been kind of all over the map on the related matters, but have always been committed to uniting us together and making room for our differences.
[10:28] So, and that brings you to this kind of what's been going on lately with the overture, and this is in the run-up to the General Assembly that's taking place, I believe it's next week, or not next week, but the week after next in Salt Lake City, from Olympia Presbytery.
[10:51] What is the reasoning maybe it probably helps for for people who don't know what is that, overture and what was the reasoning behind bringing it up the overture calls for two things it's coming from a presbytery that was examining candidates ordination that said we realize we have some folks here that we don't think really should be ordained in the PCUSA They're a little too hard on the issue of LGBTQ folks. And then they thought we ought to really make a broader policy. And what it does is two things. First of all, it adds to a list. We have made clear for many, many years that we want to be a church that doesn't discriminate. It first became the big issue with women's ordination. Nation. We've been doing that for over 100 years for deacons, more than 75 years for elders, more than 50 years for ministers of war and sacrament. But we really staked out a place with that and have had a statement in the leading part of the Book of Order that we do not discriminate for matters of gender. And the folks are asking us to also include in that list.
[12:11] The matter of sexual orientation and sexual identity, which is not seen as a really significant problem, that's not become a point of major contention. What has become a court of contention is the encouragement that's being recommended by Olympia Presbytery that we also examine candidates for ordination and assumedly for installation, which would mean they're already ordained, but moving to another presbytery and thus to be installed, be approved, that they be questioned specifically on their willingness and readiness to not discriminate specifically for LGBTQIA folks in the life of their churches. And that should, by implication, mean would they be willing to ordain them as elders, deacons, or pastors? And also, would they be willing to perform marriages for them? them. And a lot of folks are believing that that is a step too far, that what we have had in the policy is an allowance for those who wish to ordain or marry LGBTQ folks are free to do so, but those who are not in their conscience persuaded that that is right, or this particular couple that they can do that, that they should be forced to do so, this sets.
[13:38] Up the likelihood that that would become a blanket requirement for all to do that, and that's causing a lot of pushback for a lot of folks that even are progressive, that even themselves support more dating and marrying gays and lesbians, but don't want this to force other people into leaving the denomination who could say, I cannot live under that requirement.
[14:01] Does that make sense? Why do you think? Yeah. Yeah.
[14:07] It totally makes, yeah, I totally get it. Yeah. I guess one of the questions I have, though, is why do you feel that this overture is coming up now? Now, it seems like that, especially, you know, it's been now probably 10, 14 years or so since the denomination kind of made the way for ordination for LGBTQ folks. And I think it was trying to make some ways of allowing for conscience. Why do you think the change has happened now? Well, you said the magic numbers, 10 and 14. It was 14 years ago that we made it clear that the ordination of LGBTQ folks is possible and allowed. And then 10 years ago was when and it was the same for marriage.
[15:06] The reality and what I'm hearing said clearly by folks that I know that are passionate about this is that, okay, folks.
[15:17] It's gone on enough like this being in a state of ambiguity, a state of allowing either way too many, gay, lesbian, queer, transgender individuals, bisexual individuals are being thwarted in their desire to be married, thwarted in their desire to be ordained. They're feeling the pangs, the pain of discrimination against them. And it's time for us to move from permission to a requirement, to making this is the standard. We do ordain and marry same-sex related folks or queer folks that we're not going to hold. We're not going to allow anybody to be discriminated against. It's simply a matter of tweaking and aiming for this again and again for the last 10 and 14 years, but now saying, okay, we really want this to happen. And by the way, I should say that an An overture like this can come from any one of about 170 different presbyteries. Anything that they want to change about anything that we do can be proposed. It takes that presbytery by a majority vote to approve the suggestion, which could come from any one church or individual for that matter, and then has to be seconded by a few other presbyteries to become a part of the agenda. But at this point, we only know that three or four presbyteries are saying we ought to do this out of 170. 70.
[16:45] But that's all it takes for the PCUSA to take up any issue that anybody wants to bring up. It so happens that the folks in Olympio said, we really think now it's time to make this our practice. And they have every right to present it. The denomination has every right to consider that and every responsibility to consider that. And so that's in our process, that's what happens. And if this assembly says yes, it still has to be sent out to those 170 presbyteries, and the majority
[17:15] of them would have to approve that to become policy. But we do have an open legislative process that invites that. And so the real reason is that the Olympia folks said, we need to do this.
[17:28] You wrote something in Presbyterian Outlook, kind of there are a few different views on the overture. And one of the things that you related to was something we talked about earlier, which was women's ordination, that there is...
[17:47] And I think in both of these situations, you understand kind of the justice on both of these issues.
[17:55] But you also worry that there could be an overreact or overreach on this. I did use the word overreach. Yeah. And so can you kind of talk a little bit about what happened with women's ordination and what you saw as an overreach and what were the consequences of that? Yeah. When the Presbyterian Church, along with the, actually ahead of the Episcopalians, along with other denominations, United Church of Christ, were among those mainline denominations that were first ordaining women. Actually, I should qualify, Pentecostals started ordaining a lot longer before we did, because they said, if a woman's got the gifts, who are we to stop those gifts? They can preach and prophesy, let them do so. But anyway, among the mainlines, We were among the earlier ones to do so. And we went through the painstaking process that's happened with all kinds of matters of equality and desegregation. And it's always a painstaking process to move from wholesale discrimination to wholesale integration and equality and a whole lot of nuanced steps between those.
[19:12] With the women's ordination we did make it the policy of the denomination to ordain women but then we went one step further when in a court case in the church it was determined that any man being ordained to office.
[19:34] That is not willing himself to also participate in the ordination of women to office, could himself not be ordained, that that would become a deal breaker for the man's ordination, and even if he'd already been ordained, if he wanted to transfer to another church, that would disqualify him from being ordained. On the one hand, the spirit of that is it's understandable. We don't want to allow any kind of discrimination on gender any more than we do on race. However, what it did do is it led to, it was a catalyst for launching a new denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America, that pulled out, said, this is a step too far. We will not be a part of this. And in fact, actually take it back. PCSA had already pulled out. It was actually the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. Excuse me. This was 1982 when folks who had agreed to be in the denomination that allows women to be ordained, even who had worked with them, but did not want to be required to be doing the ordaining. When that became required, that led to a whole flood of congregations leaving our denomination.
[20:54] And like the Presbyterian Church in America before them, this is the big effect. A whole host, hundreds of thousands of Presbyterians who had been in the range of the influence of working with and seeing women ordained, serving, doing valid work, great preaching, were no longer even exposed to that. That the children of those pastors whose congregations left, the children of those congregations raised in those congregations, were no longer being exposed to women, elders or deacons even, and no less pastors, and that the effect was to have that whole group segregate away from us in a way that they were no longer being influenced. So that what had been a matter of persuasion now was turned into a matter of coercion. And here's the key about the overreach. When we went from persuading folks to recognize the gifts of women to minister to now coercing them into agreeing to it before their consciences had caught up with that or their intellectual understanding of the interpretation of Scripture catch up with that, they left. And we have generations now of.
[22:16] Children that have been raised in those churches that are not being exposed to women in ordination and in churches like the Christian Church in America have doubled down, like the Southern Baptists have doubled down in their prohibition of women being ordained, and therefore have set back the overall national movement and overall Christian movement of inclusion for women. And the fear here is that the same would be the case by moving from persuasion to coercion and the ordination and the marriage of LGBTQIA individuals.
[22:52] So it's an overreach that causes such a backlash as to counter the overall effect. It becomes less people moving in that direction rather than more.
[23:06] Since you have had kind of a bridge-building connection between more, I would say, evangelical Presbyterians and LGBTQ and allied Presbyterians, I'm kind of curious, have you heard or have you been in conversation with more evangelical Presbyterians who have stayed, who are aware of this overture, and what have been their reaction to it?
[23:36] It is what's been, what I'd characterize what Tony Sundermeyer has been saying. I mentioned Tony because I succeeded him in his previous pastorate. He has been a stellar pastor, first Presbyterian of Atlanta. Before that, a stellar pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Allentown, Pennsylvania. I succeeded him in that church. And you know what? I wasn't half as good as him. He was a great, He is an outstanding pastor. Actually, I had a good run there, but Tony is an outstanding pastor. And when the policy allowing gay marriage went through, he performed a gay marriage and others. Earlier that, when the policy of ordaining LGBT folks to be elders and deacons, he participated and supported in that church as well, as well as carrying over into the Atlanta church. He is at heart evangelical, but he's also very progressive on these matters. But he has been one of the most outspoken opponents of this change because he sees and has known way too many.
[24:44] For whom this kind of a move would be so, so loathsome and so difficult that they would feel like they could no longer in good conscience continue to remain in the peace USA. And that's what I'm hearing from other evangelicals themselves, which is, you know, hey, Jack, I may not agree with you being one to say we'll open the door for marrying gays and lesbians. I congregation with whom I match, I'm fit, and we're welcoming of gays and lesbians in the life of church, all kinds of sexual orientations, but being forced to have to move in that direction.
[25:28] Because we haven't been forced, we've been able to stay here in good conscience, not pull our congregation apart. Because when you pull a church out, you usually pull the church apart in the process. It's not everybody in that church that votes to go. And so now the congregation's been divided. We don't want to divide our church. We don't want to have to be forced to vote to stay or leave. That in itself creates terrible division, and it breaks up families. It breaks up congregations in a way. We don't want to go there. We want to be able to continue to serve faithfully and honestly with our difference. We know we're in the minority. We know we're outvoted over all the big issues of the church when we have a disagreement. agreement. We're okay with that. We want to stay where we can operate freely, following our own consciences.
[26:19] God's given us conscience. You know, I think in the past, one of the things, and I think this is common throughout our society in the past, is that a lot of our institutions were what you would call a big tent or to, to use in a more, um, religious parlance, a broad church. Yeah. Um, And I think I recently heard a podcast from a colleague of mine. He interviewed Ted Smith, who is a Presbyterian theologian at Emory. And one of the things that he's brought up is how denominations themselves, how they constitute, it's changing. Yeah.
[27:33] Of along those trends? that people don't see the value anymore of, say, a big tent denomination and feel that everyone has to kind of row in the same direction. Back when I wrote my book, God Views, published 13 years ago, I quoted Cliff Kirkpatrick on this subject. Cliff, who's been a state clerk for many years and the ultimate ecumenist, ultimate bridge builder, hero of mine, and he used the term enclaves of agreement. Um what ted is talking about as affinity groups is what clip was speaking of is enclaves of agreement that what is what had been happening already within the denomination were affinity groups we spoke of them as groups and a chap there was even a place in our constitution for what we called chapter nine organizations they ultimately took that whole chapter out because they realized that it was so chaotic it didn't really it didn't make any sense to have it even in the a constitutional status, but affinity group mentality is we get together with those with whom we agree. My next work I'm working on is that of.
[28:44] Churches that are red or blue. Churches that are all about following the Republican agenda. Churches all about following the Democratic agenda, which I believe is heretical. I believe it is a violation of our theology. It is an abandonment of our convictions. convictions we are united in jesus christ we are united in the worship of a trinitarian god and in there there's more diversity than the red and blue camps even allow right there in the identity of god and in in jesus ministry far more diversity than either party allows and by the way each party has ideals that are honorable and each party has an underbelly that is ugly and more than that, all of these other kinds of affinities that are more particular, specific to the LGBTQIA status or particular to a kind of worship or particular to a lot of other kinds of things, any one of them, when we allow ourselves to be defined by that affinity point of agreement, that one thing that matters above all, well, that above all is an idol. It's something that's being more important than Jesus Christ himself, more important than the Holy Trinity. We have a God we worship and that is what we need to be and voluntarily associating around that center of gravity.
[30:10] Bright light of the sun that is what makes us have a place of revolution and following that is revolving around the sun with a whole lot of change along the way. It's a really terrible thing, and I believe it's contributing significantly to the loss of church membership across the board, conservative and liberal and evangelical and progressive churches are shrinking And at this point, even more rapidly among the evangelical, because folks are getting fed up with the affinity mentality and fed up with us against them. It's a terrible thing to get so divided as that. Ted Smith is ringing through on this one.
[30:55] It's funny, you earlier brought up, I know you meant it by mistake, about the Presbyterian Church in America. Yes. But kind of related to this issue has been an issue concerning the commentator David French, who was a member of the PCA for several years, but has had a lot of blowback because of his not supporting Trump, Donald Trump. And he was invited to speak at a panel to really how do you be a church in a divided time? And the acrimony was so terrible that I mean the denomination basically caved and rescinded not only rescinded the invitation canceled the event and kind of the person who was kind of behind it made it sound like he had never knew who David David French really was yeah so it's just interesting to see that happening.
[31:57] You can't even allow for someone who may disagree. Yeah. The hidden secret about the Christian church in America, and I don't want to be mudsling, is that when the PCA divided from the PCUSA in 1973, the argument openly made was that we don't believe in women's ordination. And also, we don't believe in this new statement of faith, this C-67, Confession of 1967. But the real issue behind all that was racial integration.
[32:35] Their churches were being required in the PCUSA to accept racial integration, and they were not going to abide with that. And so fast forward 50 years, 51 years to 2024, and the very kinds of matters and issues that are being spelled out in Trumpism have now really reared their ugly head, have shown in spades what the issues are that have a church that has sold itself to a political model, to a partisan model. And I don't mean political model. Church is political in every way, but not partisan. They've given themselves to a politically partisan model. And so, yes, they're scandalized by their cancellation of David French and that event they're going to do because, God forbid, that we allow that kind of discussion in our convention, our gathering.
[33:40] It's an illustration of a very, very bad situation we really need to reverse. Hence, the hardline kinds of take on these matters. I want to add one important caveat to all this. I deeply empathize with the LGBTQIA population among the PCUSA and the larger population. Martin Luther King was right.
[34:18] Justice delayed is justice denied. And for those who have suffered injustices of all kinds, any kind of person saying to me, just put up with it for a while, it's going to get better, sounds so tokenizing, so insulting, so thoughtless. And I don't want to say anything that lends itself to that kind of an experience or being heard that way. When I was asked originally, is gay or lesbian issue a big deal? And why is it such a big deal that we have to fight about it? And I said, it is a huge deal if you're gay or lesbian or if you're a friend of and a family member of a gay or lesbian. These matters are absolutely significant. They're huge for all those who are living in any level of the relating in those matters.
[35:16] The flip side of that is that change in history, when done radically quickly, almost always backlashes and often becomes even worse than what it was before. And so to suffer the injustices that some folks have felt in one church and have felt the need to move to another church to feel more honestly and truly embraced and welcomed is a painful thing to do. But sometimes that is the lesser of calamities.
[35:54] Than moving into the position of a totally coercive change in policy before that degree of change can be embraced. And I'll add one point to that. When I was in the position of opposing ordaining LGBTQ folks for doing marriage and moving into approving, it was always at the understanding that we were talking about monogamy, that the spirit of marriage and the spirit of fidelity would be shared, same gender couples, but that it would be in a covenanted.
[36:31] Forsaking all others kind of a commitment. When we talk about orientations and gender identities, that often moves beyond the binary or preparing to multiple choices and multiple lifestyles. Even when we were talking about bisexuals back then, the argument was folks saying, I'm bisexual, but I am monogamous. I'm committed to the person with whom I've been with 5, 10, 15 years. It just so happens I also was happy to be going the other direction earlier and could see myself the other way, but still living in covenanted partnership. When we open the doors wide open on these matters, that makes it that much harder for those hesitant in the first place to now say, wow, are we having to open the doors to all kinds of sexualities like man, boy, lover, what association kinds of things that most of us all would say no to. Does it have to become a wholesale approval? Those kinds of moves make it so much more difficult for those for whom embracing where we've come to so far has been something of a difficult challenge, but yet have embraced it with integrity and honesty.
[37:54] So, let's say that at some point in a few weeks the overture does pass in General Assembly. I know then it has to go through all of the separate presbyteries to be approved. Right. But what do you see could be the unintended consequences for this? Yeah, the unintended consequences are simply what I said earlier, which is that some pastors and churches will have congregational gatherings. They'll have some congregational city hall meetings to say where the pastor is going to do her or his best to explain what happened at the assembly. That would be the first thing. That would be the first round, even before it gets voted in the presbyteries. But then all the more, the pastor is going to urge them, most likely, hang in there. It's 170 presbyteries that have to vote. There's a good chance that won't go through. And then, and this will have passed by. That's happened on many occasions in the past from all kinds of different subjects that have been voted in an assembly, but not approved in the presbyteries. But the second round will come around with a, if in fact it is approved by ratification of a majority of the presbyteries. And it's a pure majority, not a super majority required.
[39:11] If, in fact, it gets to there, then comes the city hall meetings again. And now, very quickly, someone's going to move. Pastor, I move that we begin the process of pulling out a PCUSA to move somewhere else and begin a study committee and start a study process.
[39:28] They will feel they have no choice than to have to at least engage that process. And what that does is that puts that congregation into a hurricane of conflict. That will be unavoidable in a lot of our churches who have agreed to live in our present status as it is. They will now feel that they've got to go through that. And inevitably, some will vote close. Some will vote unanimously. It's time to go or unanimously to stay. But many will be close votes, and they will be very painful in that process. That is the unintended consequence. And the net effect is more loss of churches and members and the Presbyterian Church having a smaller voice in the larger national conversation about what does faith in Christ look like in a pluralistic country like the USA.
[40:31] For those who kind of like, and I think people like the Covenant Network, and I remember reading something from Brian Ellison, who is the executive director, and he said something that we talked about earlier, that basically it's been 14 years. It's kind of enough that this is important on issues of justice, which is, I can understand on a level just because being gay myself, I get that. But what is, I mean, is it really worth it? I mean, because, I mean, a lot of what you said is correct. It could mean a smaller body. And having worked with Presbyterians during the last, which kind of schism, which kind of created eco, that is not an easy process. It can be rather wrenching. Is this worth the cost is, I guess, what I'm asking.
[41:49] Um brian and i are good friends go way back we've worked a lot together um on matters to in which we are agreement relative in which we have been in disagreement but have also worked well even in them particularly in matter of discussing the policy on marriage that ultimately that resulted out of some of those conversations the um i have i i think banks basically he is saying, as we've said, we can't wait forever for this. This is just not happening fast enough. I want to say, I have to say, Brian, you've made huge progress. Go back where we were 10 years ago on marriage and 14 years ago on ordination.
[42:35] So many congregations that would would not have imagined being there, are there. So many more than I would have predicted that would actually ordain, actually do weddings, have done so. It is, the progress is on the side of justice, on the side of inclusion. The arc toward justice, again, reflecting Martin Luther King, I believe has been proven true. Now, I'm not so sanguine as King on this, because we do see the backlash in the general population right now. We see the backlash in the Southern Baptist Church and the PCA and other places. So the arc of justice doesn't just simply move toward justice.
[43:25] But I think in the piece you'll say it has been, that the arc is going in the right direction for LGBTQ folks and that the numbers of places of feeling discriminated against and shunned are diminishing quite rapidly. Please hang in, Brian. Please hang in, Covenant Network. Please hang in, Dennis. Please hang in with those who are not where you are yet, but are even open to and have become more and more open to moving in that direction so that we can continue to be the church together. I don't want to be in a church that doesn't have a large, significant population of LGBTQIA folks, any more than I'd be willing to serve a church that doesn't have a woman as a pastor.
[44:16] Those are very strong positions for me that are a reflection of my own development in this, but I know it was reflected in the development of many, many others. And so I'd say, give it another 10 to 14 years. All of us suffer, some liberals of injustice. I suffer the injustice of being a short male. There's a lot of positions that I've been turned past for by someone that was six inches taller. I can't get by that. I say that tongue in cheek, but I don't feel cheated at all. But we do discriminate in those very trivial ways. King Saul got his job by his height, he was taller than the rest, and those kinds of prejudices still continue. There's some level of prejudice we all suffer, and again, don't hear me trivializing any of the pain, because the pain has been distinct, it's been powerful for everyone who's felt it, but I am urging, please give more time, the progress is going, it's moving forward, hang in there with us.
[45:20] No and i would say that i think it's i think it's more important to persuade someone than to coerce someone um yes and i think that our society the way that things have been moving are moving in a positive direction but it does take time and i think that That happens when people get to meet other people who are LGBTQ.
[45:49] But I think forcing the issue doesn't work. It leads to a lot. It's a quick way to get to that, but I don't know if it's not. It causes a whole lot of pain. And I think even those who we disagree with, we still believe that they're children of God and needed to be treated with dignity.
[46:18] And lest I sound even more trivial, I'm a fan of Robert's rule of the border. I'm a fan of parliamentary process. I'm well-trained in it. I get it, but I hate it too because it boils down to a vote. And if 50 plus one person get the votes, the other 49 minus one, 50 minus one are defeated. And having so much of our decision-making on the national level boil down to a zero-sum win-or-lose vote. I've been on the winning side many times. I've been on the losing side many times. And you know what? It's not the best way to go. If we could be working more toward the consensus model, some other denominations use that, particularly Australia and New Zealand, Presbyterians do, but moving away from the winner-take-all vote, that this kind of a process, the overtures and the ratification process, if we can move continually with persuasion rather than coercion, Dennis, and with that, rather than just a simple up-down vote, that is a much, that bodes much better for progress.
[47:38] I'm kind of curious, what does the consensus model look like among Presbyterians in Australia and New Zealand? When I was in that theological task force on peace, unity, and purity, we divided into three groups. One was the theology group. I was a part of that group, trying to write the theological work. Then another one was the communication group. How do we communicate with a larger church? Well, the third group was the process group, and they were the consensus maniacs.
[48:07] And they were really working this model of consensus. And in this environment, it worked really well. It's hard with really big ones. But actually, the World Council churches, I attended their meeting in Busan about a decade or so ago, Busan, Korea. And they use that all the way throughout. What happens in that case is that a person makes a motion on the floor. It's put to a vote. But the vote isn't up-down. It's like, I'm strongly in favor. I'm somewhat in favor. I'm strongly against I'm somewhat against I'm some in the middle and they break down into five categories and Then they invite those who are in favor based on that, They invite those in favor to go off into a room and to begin to work on how they can rework this and then they Have them meet with folks on the other side another side to work. How can they rework this? How can they negotiate ways to meet the hopes and fears of all the years in both in those camps? It's not just two camps, it's five camps, and they begin to work back and forth between committees and the assembly itself back and forth until finally they can bring something to the floor that most can live with and the majority want. So site majority wants it, but most can live with it.
[49:25] And it's a whole lot better than that straight upside up down vote. It really did work remarkably when I saw it in Busan and worked really well with the committee of 20 for the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity, and Purity. So you keep working, negotiating the points of disagreement while you find where are the points of agreement on which we can build to have more and more to be more substantive and not just trivial. real. It's a merit-worthy consideration. Frankly, most of our church committees operate that way. Someone will throw out an idea, they'll kick it around, they'll formulate an answer, and that becomes what becomes a motion to this session. It's a more informal way of discussion and deliberation, but it can get a whole lot more progress and truly a consensus. A solid majority that say, okay, we can go with this. Um, it's not everything I want, but it's most of what I want and I can live with what I did and what I didn't want. Um, yes, we, in that direction, um, has much to be said for it.
[50:38] So one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot these days is, um, how do we as a society live together. The United States is a nation of 340 million people. We're an incredibly diverse society. We have to learn to find some way of living together to find that way. Why is the church not a model? I guess it's the basic question right now. I mean, because it seems like things like this are showing that we are not showing, as it said, Paul would say, a more excellent way.
[51:18] Well, brother, you answered your question by the way you went, by the way you questioned it. The church has to be a model.
[51:27] This is where the church's witness has to stand up, rise up, and hopefully you and I can talk again shortly about my next book, because that's tackling that very, very subject. How can we be a full-spectrum church in a red and blue world? How can the polarized context in which we live become one in which in the church we become a place where it's not red and blue, it's not black and white, it's not us or them, it's not left or right, but it's all kinds of nuances of difference and all kinds of affirming of one another, spiritual giftings and callings that are as diverse as our DNA is diverse. As wide and different as we could imagine people to be. The body of Christ constituted in the first century actually constituted.
[52:20] Thousand plus years before in terms of the call of God to Abram and Sarah, but the body of faith that God brought together has always been incredibly diverse. And the New Testament church in particular demonstrates an amazing diversity. Just read the differences between the gospels, the differences of the apostle Paul's, the same author to different audiences are so different than what they're saying because their situations are so different. We in the church have got to get our arms around being a diversity that's far more diverse than gender identity, far more diverse than gifts and callings, but the full diversity of all the gifts and callings that God has placed upon us so that the church is not a congregation going in one place. It's a launch pad for people going in all kinds of directions at the same time. We'll get together on Sundays and then be launched out for Monday through Saturday to go to do the different things God's called us to do. We have to recover that kind of a vision for the church, a truly biblical ecclesiology, which frankly, as a Presbyterian, is at the heart of what Presbyterian ecclesiology is, the parity of all members with pastors, elders, deacons, as the body of Christ together.
[53:41] Serving as equally important, equally valued roles of service to God and the church, and equally available to have the wisdom and discernment to understand and get God's will for us in the collective of who we are as a body together in that congregation, nation and then in the larger body of like a presbytery or a synod or a general assembly where the diversities are multiplied exponentially, we've got to get there, brother. We've got to get there. You and I need to work this along with all of our friends that we can lead with to help to do this. The church, I think the church is the only hope for our country because our country has found a total lack of capacity to bear with the other, the other, no matter how we define the other. It is totally unstylish to even talk about the other in anything demonizing ways. The church has got to, we've got to leave. We have to leave this.
[54:49] And I do want to have you back to talk about your upcoming book, especially as we're getting closer towards the election so um do know you will be coming back to talk about this all right can't wait dennis can't wait thank you brother you're welcome um before we go our if people would like to to um get in contact with you um how can they do that.
[55:17] The simple way, I guess the most obvious way would be my email address, which is jackatthehaberers.com, spelled T-H-E-H-A-B-E-R-E-R-S, plural, thehaberers, jackatthehaberers.com. I invite a conversation wide and easily, and also easily found on Facebook. There's not a whole lot of Jack Habers in the world, so it's not hard to find me there either. I'd be happy to be in conversation with anybody on all of these matters. Thank you for offering. All right. Yeah. All right. Well, Jack, thank you so much for taking the time to chat. And like I said, we will be back again very soon to talk about your new book because we need to talk about it. How we can bridge the gap here, especially when it comes to politics. I look forward to doing that, Dennis. Wonderful to talk to you today. This has been great. All right.
[56:16] Music.
[56:49] So what do you think of the Olympia Overture? Is theological pluralism a good idea, or is it an idea whose time has passed? And what about the issue of justice and making sure that LGBTQ Presbyterians are not discriminated against? How does that work with pluralism? I'd love to hear what you're thinking about this. Drop me a line by sending an email to churchandmain at substack.com.
[57:25] I also wanted to let you know a few things. First is, as I've said before, you can donate via Venmo. You can give whatever amount by going to at churchandmainpod. You can also donate via Tip Top Jar, where you can leave, again, any amount. If you want to send me a buck, you can. If you want to do whatever, you can do that. Just go to tiptopjar.com backslash electricparson. Your donation helps me to continue to produce great episodes like this one. And as I said before at the top of the podcast, remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast app. And also pass the episode along to others who might be interested in listening. So I'm Dennis Sanders your host as I always like to say thank you so much for listening it really does matter take care everyone godspeed and I will see you very soon.
[58:27] Music.
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