Spiritual Practices for the Neurodivergent | Episode 185

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to this bonus edition of Church and Main, the podcast for people

[00:00:43] interested in the intersection of faith in our modern world.

[00:00:46] I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.

[00:00:49] Church and Main is a podcast that looks for where God is at work among all of the issues

[00:00:53] that are affecting church in the largest society.

[00:00:57] To learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes and to donate, check us

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[00:01:09] There you can find some articles that I've written and you can also find episodes there

[00:01:14] as well.

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[00:01:23] and once you do that, also consider leaving a review that helps others find the podcast.

[00:01:29] So my prior episode with Steve Tonneson, I talked a little bit about the challenge of

[00:01:40] spiritual practices when you are on the spectrum.

[00:01:44] As many of you know, I have been diagnosed with both ADHD and what used to be called

[00:01:51] Aspergers and that has always made it a challenge to have regular devotions.

[00:02:01] But there are ways around that.

[00:02:04] Today you're going to be hearing actually an interview from about a year ago and this

[00:02:10] is actually for, it's not a podcast, it's actually for YouTube channel where I work

[00:02:20] at Faith Lutheran Church in Forest Lake, Minnesota.

[00:02:24] The deacon there who was actually a guest about maybe almost two years ago on the

[00:02:31] podcast, Deacon Nina Joygard does a kind of a series called Perlab and she does kind

[00:02:41] of a sub-series that's called Perlab on the Road.

[00:02:46] That one she actually talks to people who are part of Faith Lutheran just to find out what

[00:02:51] are their spiritual practices.

[00:02:54] And about a year and a half ago she interviewed me and I talked about being on the spectrum

[00:03:01] and having ADHD and what does that look like trying to be able to have spiritual, kind

[00:03:08] of have regular spiritual practices when it can be a challenge.

[00:03:13] You can kind of lose attention very quickly when you're trying to do something, trying

[00:03:22] to read scripture or even pray.

[00:03:26] So the original, the interview that she did lasted maybe about 10 minutes and she kind

[00:03:33] of whittled it down to maybe about three minutes but I have the kind of full interview

[00:03:39] and want to share that with you.

[00:03:42] Basically just to, as a way of helping others who might be on the spectrum, I have ADHD

[00:03:50] because I think what Steve said is important.

[00:03:54] Spiritual practice does matter.

[00:03:56] It's not just for people who are pastors.

[00:03:59] I think it is for everyone because our relationship with God is just that, a relationship.

[00:04:06] And to do that you have to have regular time with God.

[00:04:10] So I hope that you listen to this episode.

[00:04:12] It's about, I said about 10 minutes.

[00:04:16] Before I go to that just a reminder that I have added ways that you can donate.

[00:04:24] You can either donate via Venmo or you can donate via tip top jar and information on

[00:04:34] how to donate and you can donate any amount are in the show notes.

[00:04:39] But with that, here is the interview I had for Pralab Minute on the Road with Deacon

[00:04:45] Nina Jorgaard from early in 2023.

[00:04:50] Enjoy.

[00:04:51] Hello everyone.

[00:04:54] Deacon Nina here with our next installment of Pralab Minute on the Road.

[00:05:00] And I'm here today with Dennis Sanders.

[00:05:03] Dennis is our communications manager at Faith, but you're so much more than that Dennis.

[00:05:07] Tell us a little bit about what else you are and where we are.

[00:05:12] Where we're on the road today?

[00:05:13] Well, we're at Roseville Lutheran Church.

[00:05:17] And that's where I am on Sundays.

[00:05:19] I am besides being the communications manager at Faith, I'm also a pastor.

[00:05:26] I'm ordained in the Christian Church Disciples of Christ.

[00:05:29] And I'm pastor of First Christian Church of St. Paul.

[00:05:32] And we've been meeting here at Roseville Lutheran Church in what they now call the Great Hall

[00:05:38] and was one of their first sanctuaries since August.

[00:05:43] So I'm usually here during the week on Wednesdays and Fridays and then of course on Sundays for worship.

[00:05:50] Nice.

[00:05:50] Alright, thanks Dennis.

[00:05:52] So Dennis, I know you have a unique practice you like to do for prayer.

[00:05:56] Would you tell us a little bit about what it is that you like to do for prayer?

[00:06:01] Yeah, what I like to do for prayer is basically to listen to podcasts.

[00:06:08] And there's kind of a method to the madness here.

[00:06:11] Yeah, let us in.

[00:06:13] So about maybe 15 years ago or so, I was diagnosed with Aspergers which is kind of on the autism spectrum.

[00:06:23] And then a few years ago, I was also diagnosed with ADHD or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

[00:06:30] And usually those two things are comorbid so they kind of come together for many people.

[00:06:37] So what that means for me is that it's really hard for me to focus on things.

[00:06:41] So I've always been a joke that there are always these people that like kind of, you know,

[00:06:47] Well, I've sat in silence for 40 minutes and was able to really communicate with God.

[00:06:54] And it's like, yeah, two minutes and I'm kind of like, oh, what is, did I leave the light on?

[00:07:02] And so I'm always kind of thinking about other things so it was always hard for me to really focus on things.

[00:07:10] And early on years ago, I decided I wanted to find something that could help me in spending time with God

[00:07:20] where I could actually kind of have some time of focusing but it didn't require me to just have to sit still.

[00:07:27] And so I started to look at podcasts and the one of the first things that I did was one that's called Pray As You Go.

[00:07:37] Okay.

[00:07:38] This is produced by Jesuits in the UK.

[00:07:43] And it's about a 15, 20 minute podcast where there is song, there's kind of time for reflection and there's the reading of scripture.

[00:07:53] And so usually at the end of the day I would kind of, you know, while my husband is asleep,

[00:08:00] I would kind of put on my ear pods and listen.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:06] And that would be a way of kind of focusing in on what the scripture is saying.

[00:08:13] And it's not perfect.

[00:08:14] I'm still at times will wander off and something, but it was a way of kind of focusing in and really I think helpful

[00:08:22] in helping me actually be able to spend time with God.

[00:08:26] And I love that you sort of experimented with something that works for you.

[00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:30] It's not, I mean prayer shouldn't be a cookie cutter sort of experience.

[00:08:37] And yeah, that's really, I mean it's really cool.

[00:08:41] Yeah.

[00:08:42] And it sounds like having just that thing to listen to gave you something to like center on besides just your own trying to stay still.

[00:08:51] Exactly.

[00:08:52] Trying to stay quiet.

[00:08:54] Yeah.

[00:08:55] Another thing that I've done, it's kind of a tradition.

[00:08:59] It's harder to do it, but years ago the Presbyterians had this podcast that was called Listen to the Word or hear the word I should say.

[00:09:07] And it was, I always want to find their Good Friday podcast because it was from John and it was the passion and that one.

[00:09:19] Yeah.

[00:09:20] So it's about two chapters and it was a good half hour.

[00:09:24] And it was a great time.

[00:09:25] I would come usually the church where I was serving at the time.

[00:09:30] I would come and find a place either to sit down or sometimes I would even just walk.

[00:09:36] But it was a time to really on that time, that day to just focus and hear that story.

[00:09:42] And it was always kind of a special time.

[00:09:47] You know, a lot of people can sometimes sit in a church service and they have that.

[00:09:50] But again, because of the way that how my brain works, it just doesn't always work that way.

[00:09:55] And this was the way that I felt like I could connect with that story and connect with God at that time.

[00:10:03] Yeah, that's beautiful.

[00:10:04] And I love that you can do it, you know, like you mentioned, you first started doing it headphones at night.

[00:10:10] I mean, I can just imagine like chill out in the darkness, but also you can take it for a walk or when you're in an airport traveling or you know, you name it.

[00:10:19] Yeah, that it's a it's a mobile tool.

[00:10:23] Yeah, and you can kind of take it everywhere.

[00:10:27] I mean, I listen to it along driving, listen to it while I'm on a plane or when I work at faith or even here at Roseville.

[00:10:40] It that's the thing.

[00:10:42] It opens you up to anything, any place.

[00:10:45] And one that I'm actually doing more recently is.

[00:10:50] When this called a morning at the office and it's by an episcopal group called forward movement.

[00:10:57] And so, and basically, if you're familiar with kind of what they call the daily office, that's what they do.

[00:11:04] And so for 15 minutes, they go through the whole thing of the daily office and you just again listen to it in that way.

[00:11:12] And I think again, I like that I'm able to kind of listen to it.

[00:11:16] I'm able to kind of focus in on what the scriptures are saying in the prayers and.

[00:11:24] Be active and doing other things without feeling and feeling that I can be included in this.

[00:11:31] I think.

[00:11:33] Early on years ago, I was still kid and trying to do things like devotions.

[00:11:37] It was always hard and I felt I can't do this.

[00:11:41] And this was a way that I could.

[00:11:44] Yeah, that's beautiful.

[00:11:47] What encouragement would you give to folks who are listening or watching who,

[00:11:53] you know, maybe they have a similar diagnosis as you or maybe they resonate with the like, yeah, yes, it's so quiet.

[00:11:58] Like that's just not that's not who I'm created to be.

[00:12:03] What kind of encouragement or advice might you offer someone who's like really keyed in right now?

[00:12:08] Like, oh, let me see.

[00:12:10] I want to hear.

[00:12:11] I want to hear more about this.

[00:12:12] Yeah, I would say find something that works for you.

[00:12:17] There are lots of different podcasts out there.

[00:12:19] There might be different apps.

[00:12:21] You're going to say prayers because an app not.

[00:12:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:26] Another one that is worthwhile and it's incredibly short is and it has an app is by the Moravian Daily Text.

[00:12:34] And those are incredibly short.

[00:12:36] It's just one verse.

[00:12:38] Yeah, one or two verses and a very short prayer.

[00:12:40] I mean, you can get that done in like two minutes and just find different things.

[00:12:46] And maybe if you know, find something, even create something, maybe it's taking the walk.

[00:12:52] Maybe it's doing something that you can do that that fits you.

[00:13:00] But I think that the thing is don't give up, try something and figure out what works for you and realize that maybe works for someone else.

[00:13:10] It's not going to work for you and that's OK.

[00:13:12] Is there anything else you want to share or say?

[00:13:15] Yeah, I think for someone that is on the spectrum is to know that again, there are ways that you can commune with God.

[00:13:27] It may not be the way that everyone else has communed, but we're kind of different people anyway.

[00:13:34] And find again that God has made us differently.

[00:13:38] And so find the way that you feel that God can allow you to commune with God and know that.

[00:13:48] And know that God is OK with how you are working this out and how you are trying to figure things out.

[00:13:58] And that God is with you in all of this.

[00:13:59] Yeah, I mean, that's a whole like for me, that's a whole thought behind prayer lab.

[00:14:05] Exactly.

[00:14:06] And there's going to be things that work and there's going to be things that don't work.

[00:14:09] And we learn from all of those things and we grow in all of those things.

[00:14:15] Exactly.

[00:14:15] It's not that every single thing is going to fit me or fit you.

[00:14:20] Yeah.

[00:14:21] So, and I think, again, life, especially on the spectrum is an experiment.

[00:14:28] I'm thankful for that and I'm thankful to try new things.

[00:14:31] And I'm just thankful that God has kind of helped me to find a way to continue that relationship with God.

[00:14:41] Yeah, thank you.

[00:14:44] Oh, this was lovely.

[00:14:46] Thank you, Dennis.

[00:14:47] I think your story is just...

[00:14:50] I'm so grateful for you for sharing your story because I think it will really connect as people

[00:14:55] and give us some things to experiment with.

[00:14:58] Right.

[00:14:59] I may be coming to your headphones next.