Pastoral Leadership in the AI Era with Jeremy Wilhelmi | Episode 178

[0:00] Music.
[0:38] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Church in Maine, the podcast at the intersection of faith and modern life. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Church in Maine is a podcast that looks for God in the middle of all the issues that are affecting the church and the world today. Now, you can learn more about our podcast, listen to past episodes, and donate by checking us out at two places. You can go to churchinmaine.org. That's where the main page of the podcast, or you can also go to thechurchinmaine.substack.com where I have episodes, but I also have some articles that I've written. I hope that you will consider subscribing. You can do that on your favorite podcast app. You can do it at the sub stack and either place. It would be nice if you leave to review because that will help others find this podcast.
[1:26] And I hope that you are having a good time. Um, it is April, mid April now. Um, I actually, it may be, if you were listening a few episodes back when I recorded an episode on Holy week, when it seemed to be, uh, we hadn't had snow all winter and we've had snow. And now today when I'm recording this, it was 85. This is life in Minnesota. Um, it is not boring. I'm really hoping that three Three weeks from now, we're not going to get a foot in the snow.
[1:59] So, and probably because I said that, that will happen. But anyway, this episode, we'll be with, we'll be talking about AI. And we'll be, our guest today is Jeremy Wilhelm. And we'll be talking about AI and its role in pastoral ministry, if it even has a role in pastoral ministry. He wrote an article in Presbyterian Outlook on the topic. and I will include that in the show notes as well as his previous episode. He was actually a guest a while back on episode 108. The title of that one was The Chaplaincy Is Not Your Backup Plan.
[2:41] Jeremy actually is a chaplain. He is an ordained pastor in the Presbyterian Church USA and he's been the college chaplain at Ozarks University in Clarksville, Arkansas since 2016. So, let's dig into this conversation that I had with Jeremy on AI and its role in pastoral ministry.
[3:04] Music.
[3:40] Well, Jeremy, thank you for coming back on the podcast. Oh, thanks, Des. It's great to be back with you. Yeah. So I wanted to have you on the podcast because you wrote this interesting and fascinating article for Presbyterian Outlook about pastors and AI. And I think maybe the best way to start, because I know some people will read it, some people won't, is kind of the overall, what were you trying to do? I mean, you were kind of curious about AI when it came to the role of a pastor and especially in writing.
[4:17] Can you kind of give the whole kind of what led you to do this at a glance? Yeah. So the talk on campus has been chat GPT and AI and students using it to write papers and things like that. And, of course, as a pastor, even as a college chaplain, we do quite a bit of writing. And so that sort of intrigued my interest. It's like, how good is this stuff? Because I kind of ignored it, and I kind of purposely wanted to ignore it because I'm going, I don't want to go down that road. I don't want to go down that road. Uh, but then eventually, uh, kind of hit a point, uh, where at the end of the year, and I talk about this in the article where I I'm having to write yet another prayer and benediction for our, our commencement ceremonies, which we have to a year.
[5:10] And I was like, Oh, what am I going to say this year? What am I going to say this year? Uh, every year gets a little bit harder because you're trying to find something new to say, but the occasion is the same thing and you don't want to sound redundant. it. And I wanted to try to make some sort of connection to the actual class and those particular students, but it's a busy time. And so the temptation of, okay, is there any way I can kind of shorten this work? Because personally for me as a pastor, it takes a little bit more time to write. It's hard for me to write. Once it's done, I'm great. But getting that whole process is a challenge for me.
[5:47] And so I wrote something and I was like, okay, this is okay. And then it It just kind of hit me. How would chat GPT do this? Just out of curiosity. So I went in there and I typed in just like anybody else where I said, uh, give me a benediction for a commencement ceremony. Enter. And that, that quick, I mean, within seconds, it had a full on benediction and I read it and I was like, wow, this is pretty good. Like it's well-written it's, it touches on all the things one would say during a benediction and all that. And I thought, okay, that's interesting. But I kind of wanted to test it. And so the article was about, okay, can somebody tell the difference between when somebody writes something like this, an actual person, or when the computer does it for you? And so I tell the story of how I sent what I had written and what the chat GPT got for me and said, hey, friends, two of my closest colleagues in ministry. I said, hey, I've got two benedictions. I'm trying to figure out which one to use.
[6:59] Tell me which one you like better and then tell me why. And so then they chimed in and they read it and all that. And they both said to me that they liked the one that I had written, though they didn't know that that was the one I'd written. And they had different reasons, but mostly it was there was a personal connect. Like, I like how you said this because this is what's going on with students. Or I like how you said this because of, oh, that that that touched, you know, kind of that kind of thoughts. And then, of course, I told them what I was doing after the fact. And they said, oh, wow, that's fascinating.
[7:30] And sort of through that process, I learned or maybe just reinforced the idea of no matter how hard things are in ministry, some occasions require the personal, the pastor's heart and not to lose sight of that in the midst of everything that's going on. Ministry right now is stressful, no matter whether you're in congregational ministry or in other ministries. Everybody seems to be on edge, particularly my congregational ministry colleagues. And they're under lots of stresses for lots of different reasons, a lot of them facing burnout, things like that. And it's easy for us. And we have resources even. I mean, we have lots of resources and books full of liturgies and things where people have written very nice, lovely theology, right? theological stuff for worship and liturgy, all those things for worship. And it's easy for us to use them, and I think that they're good, and sometimes we should, and there's nothing wrong with that, especially when you're trying to stay thematic and what you're trying to kind of connect the whole worship service to the preaching text, those things like that.
[8:37] But there are certain occasions and there are certain places in ministry where the most important thing, I think, is the authenticity, the words that are coming from you as the pastor who knows your context, who knows your people, who knows this occasion. ChatGPT does not know the University of the Ozarks, right? They don't know the students. They don't know what they've been through. It has no heart. It has no emotional connection. And that influences us in ministry. And that's what makes us unique uh and we can't lose sight of that um at all so that's that was sort of the premise of it all and and and and then i mentioned too as well in the article just um one of the early lessons in ministry that was taught to me by the pastor who i was doing my internship for he said um.
[9:28] Make sure you're doing your work from you and make sure you're authentic in what you do, because a congregation or whoever your audience can spot a fake easily, particularly in ministry. So be yourself and practice what you preach. So and that that has rung true and that has shown back up in numerous occasions in my ministry. And and with ChatGPT, here's yet another temptation, another apple hanging from the tree saying, come take a bite. And I was really drawn to that with everything going around in the college context and also it going, hmm, there's it's it's tempting me as well and helps me connect to my students a little bit better, too, I hope.
[10:13] Well, why do you think that chat GBT is tempting? I mean, what is it that you think might make a pastor want to use it? Well, it's convenient and it's fast.
[10:27] And we are so much in need of time, it seems, these days, right? If we can save time anywhere to do all the things that we want to do, if there's an avenue we can take to kind of shortcut that, that's tempting. And and chat gpt provides that now i will say when i was looking at that i was going because i was trying to think about you know what the good thing is about this though and it's like well so i mean some people would argue about whether or not they have writer's block or not but if you have if you believe that if you're like in a moment where i just can't think of this or or maybe i just can't think of what to say in the right way maybe that can maybe an example can can loosen your, whatever's making you stuck and get you a little bit more and get the creative juices flowing, in a sense. So I thought that was a positive to it. But yeah, they're just so tempting just to say, hey, if I can cut, I mean, because writing a prayer, like an authentic prayer, no matter the occasion, it can take a little bit of time. It can take an hour, it can take a couple hours, whatever. And especially if you're going through editing process and you're looking at, okay, do I want to craft it this way, that way? It takes time. And so if I can shorten in that time, boy, that would, man, I could go get this other thing done that I've been wanting to do in, in, in my work, in my ministry, et cetera. So I think that's the biggest thing. It's just, it is, it is the, it is time.
[11:52] And that's the thing I think we all value so importantly is, is time, uh, because our to-do lists are ever growing. Our, our, our, the people around us, uh, who want and need our attention are, are asking for it. And we've always feel like we're shortchanging people with our and shortchanging ourselves. Like we're not getting the time that we need to do the other things in ministry that we think are important. And we want to make sure that we have time for that because that's more important. So maybe this prayer or maybe this, this, this little write up for the church newsletter or whatever it is, um, isn't that important? Cause I mean, who's going to read it, but.
[12:28] So that, that, those, those are what, that's, what's so tempting is it frees us up and it makes us feel good that we got something done, right? We get that instant gratification. We get that, that endorphins going, oh, I just got something done a whole lot faster than I ever thought I would. Right. That's the temptation for me, I think, in ministry. Hmm. Yeah, you know, I think the other thing that might be a temptation, especially these days, is maybe the fear that your words aren't good enough and that, you know, here's this thing out there that can say it better and maybe add some things that aren't there before. And not just even in our writing, but even just in how we are able to put the words together and speak them and all of that, that offers here's this temptation that can help. I think you're spot on, Dennis. And I'm glad you said that because that escaped me, but that makes so much sense.
[13:30] As much as us in ministry want to try to deny it, we know that there are other people out there who do really good things that we're not as good at. You know, there are some really, really good preachers out there who can preach the socks off of me. And I totally admit that.
[13:46] And I would love to have their gifts and their abilities. And yet I'm not that good. I mean, sometimes I don't think I'm that good of a writer. I don't think I've got the right. And growing up in small town Arkansas and, you know, not the best education. All those things you kind of look back and go, oh, am I not adequate enough because I didn't go to the best schools and I didn't go to the best colleges and I struggled in seminary, those kind of things. So, yeah, there is some of that, and especially when you're on the pedestal. So for me, that temptation is certainly there because I, and I say this in the article, like I am the, at commencement, I am the first words of commencement and I'm the last words of commencement. And, and though people don't probably remember what I prayed for or what I said in that moment, it's very important. And, and I have to be, I feel I have that pressure to be on my game. I have pressure to be, to create that first impression, to give all of those who are in attendance the, I feel like I'm setting the context for what they're about to experience in a service like, in a ceremony like that. And then to end it on the last word, it's just like, this is the last word. This is the amen at the end. And to leave them with something.
[15:11] As opposed to it just being, okay, we've gone through, I've gotten my picture done and all that. I've gotten everything else, and I just want to go on to the next. It's like, no, there is closure to this ceremony. So the pressure is there as well. So I've got to get it on both ends. And that temptation is certainly there. And if somebody could say it better than me, then it's a tempting thing. And I will say, even in these ceremonies and things like that, it's okay to use other people and other resources. I've quoted a song before for a ceremony at a benediction because it was good words. Which, of course, you attribute and all those things. But nevertheless, the need to be authentic. And they know that I thought of those words, not just for any old research I ran across, some of it sounded great. But I thought about it because of those students. That's the hard part.
[15:57] You know, how tempting do you think it's going to be as, I mean, Chet, GBT, and some other AI tools are, I don't want to say they're the infancy, but they're still in early stages. But what happens when it improves? And let's say five or ten years down the line, how much more of a temptation will it be for pastors? And then that asks another question is, how do you, let's say as a seminary professor, really urge people to still write and do things on their own? Yeah, that's that's in that it.
[17:05] Really scary because it's going to make things, yeah, it's just going to make things at a click of a button. Now, we sort of do this already. We've just done it in very infant sort of ways. Like think about biblical commentaries. We use biblical commentaries in our preaching and all those things all the time. We use resources from other places everywhere we get to help us form a better message, a more wholesome message, or to try to make sure that we don't miss something along the way, et cetera. So we've done that. We've done that in different ways. We've just used books instead of a computer doing it for us. And so then the real question, I think, is going to be, are we going to see that the same way as we see a book? Or as an author who's written something, a commentary, for example. Well, it's just another resource. It's just another quote-unquote encyclopedia. It's just a more advanced Google search of what we were already doing. It's just easier, faster, more convenient. And I don't know. I don't know the the answer to that one that one's we won't and we won't know until it happens um.
[18:06] But again, there are, this is what I, and I think that works in a lot of contexts and a lot of professions, but ministry is just a different animal. We have to be personal. We have to connect. And I would say, though, there are, you know, just kind of like as we read Paul, for example, and there's all this scholarly debate about, well, this epistle is Paul, but this one might not be because Paul doesn't sound like Paul in this one, right? I do think that no matter what happens with AI, if we try to just replace sermons with AI for us, that's going to show forth. Again, they're going to spot the fakes because we are all going to grow up and evolve with this technology, right? And so they're going to catch on to it as well. And so maybe that's the, maybe that's the thing that, that kind of checks us is that, you know, we're not in isolation when it comes to this, the people around us are going to be using it for different reasons and different things, but there's going to be some connections going, Hmm, that just sounds chat GPT ish. Yeah. And, and they're going to pick up on that and go, did you really write that? And I think that that's, um, that maybe will hold us accountable. I hope. hope.
[19:28] And again, there's going to be limits anyways, because it's not like you can go walk into a hospital bed, a hospital room with a hospital bed and a sick person and say, hang on a second, chat GPT, give me a prayer for somebody who's about to die on a hospital bed. That's not going to happen, right? You aren't going to be able to do that. Unless those Google lenses that they've come out with, they're just going to put words on you and no one else can see it but you. You but so hopefully you know then it can like read your brain which is like what elon musk is working on okay maybe it is i don't know but but hopefully not i mean yeah now i mean i start rambling and then there you go there's a there's another example of what we we think the future could be like and that could be that too um so maybe maybe that isn't it it's scary oh man but yeah authenticity still it's got to be it i mean you still it's just there is a there there is an essential place for the personal human connection and authenticity that, that AI just cannot replace in this particular context, which is ministry. But it seems like at some point there needs to be some talk about ethics and, and what can it be used for? What can it be used for and how should you use it and how not?
[20:44] Just because it's, it's here now. And so the temptation is here. And I think as it gets better, um, the temptation is going to grow even more. Um, so how do we use it? Because I don't think, you know, it's not that you can't use it, but it's how is it used and how is it used ethically? How is it used in keeping with our faith? Um, that it's not just because I think right now we, we, um, Um, we don't have that. And so it seems like we need to. Yeah. Well, and that's what we're struggling with with college students in the same, you know, trying to make the case for, yeah, this is an easy out if you don't get caught, which you can still get caught fairly easily, even though they try. And it seems to me like, I just try to make the case. It's like, it's a whole lot of wasted time for you to go and try to find something when you could have probably right now, at least that's the way it is where you could spend Spend a little bit more time, but not a whole lot, and just do it yourself, and then be okay. And if it's not a 99, it's a 92.
[21:58] Heavens, like, what a terrible thing, right? Like, it's okay to be a 92. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah, and that's the thing. I mean, in general, working with college students, having those conversations with, they're like, oh, I'm struggling with, like, I don't have an A. Like that still happens. I'm going, it's okay to get a B. Like that's okay. And I try to tell them like, they might ask for your transcript when you're looking for a job, but they're not really looking at your grades and going, oh, you got a B or you got a C. I got a D in a class in college. And I failed my first Old Testament midterm in seminary. But I learned something from that. and that failure is.
[22:45] For me doing it myself, I learned, okay, I've got to figure out a different way to study. I've got to figure out a different way to learn, because obviously what they're expecting me to do on an exam is not what I've been prepared for. And so I've got to adapt and I've got to figure it out. And then, of course, the grace was in the fact that the professors were like, you know, this is not the end of your seminary journey. Like, we don't weigh this first one as much as the next one. You're going to learn from this, and that's good. And I think that that's the thing that we're going to miss, too, from all this this, this, uh, technology is the ability to, to make mistakes and learn from them. And that'd be a good thing and not to see that as a bad thing. And so we continue. So that's the continued lesson that we're teaching or trying to teach our college students, um, not to take this shortcut while it might seem to work out in the long run. And then it's like, do you really feel good about walking across that stage when you know that some of your work was not you? Um, is it, does it, does it change how you feel about that degree? I looking back and I would think that that I would hope that that would and and and we say that because we know that their older selves will look back and go. Yeah, I totally messed that up. I really regret doing that. And so we're trying to get them to get that message so that they don't have those regrets when they get to be our age and older. So do you think that there is a positive role for AI in ministry?
[24:08] Yeah, I mean, I'd like to hope so. And I do think, like I said earlier about the idea of just at least opening a door to creativity, opening a door to something idea that you haven't thought of and expounding upon. I mean, that's the initial for me. It was like, oh, OK, that's a nice way to say that. Maybe I can, you know, tweak that in a way that that's more me, but still like, OK, I hadn't thought about it like that. So I think that that's certainly a positive.
[24:32] And yeah, it's another resource of learning. So if we look at it from the context of, hey, this thing can, because it, I mean, what is AI doing? It's pulling from resources. It's just doing it at an incredibly fast pace than we could ever do on our own or from a book. So that's what they're doing. They're just doing it faster. Now, are they quoting? Are they citing sources, things like that? And that might be helpful down the line. It's like, is this just a way to pull up information so much faster that we can do our research and some of that work faster so that we have what we need to be better equipped? And maybe there's some, maybe there, I think down the line, there'll be some ways that we can gather information faster so that we can prepare and do better work, do better, you know, teaching Bible, better preaching, better, et cetera, right? Right. So I think that that's a positive that could come from this, because that's always, I mean, just think about how easy it is now to go on the website to like a biblegateway.com, for example, and you've got all these different translations at the click of a button, as opposed to having to go and pull this book, this translation off your shelf, right? So I mean, it is going to save us time. I mean, that I do think is going to give us the time. It's just, again, choosing the ethics about what is the best ways to save time so that you don't lose the authentic pastor that's in you.
[25:55] So I wrote down this quote in your essay, and you kind of answered some of it, but there is something else I want to kind of pick up on it, but I'll share the quote. And it says, as hard as it is sometimes to write yet another benediction, another sermon, another worship liturgy, another prayer, another church newsletter article. I still believe that it makes a difference. And you continue, there are moments in ministry when what is needed is not perfect grammar or sound theological prose, but words from the heart.
[26:28] And what I thought about that, and you've kind of talked about this in the interview so far, but.
[26:37] Where does grace fit into all of this? Because I think there is so much of a temptation and a pressure, especially for pastors, to perform. And we're always doing some form of performance, so we can't pretend that that's not there. That's fair. Absolutely. But where does grace fit in in that world where you feel the pressure to perform and to perform performed well.
[27:07] Um, but you know, there is a downside to that. Yeah. Now I, so I'll go back to my, um, my, my seminary internship and true story. We're, we're about to walk into the worship space and me and the, my, my internship pastor, um, he looks at me right before we go in and he's like, Jeremy, oh, one more important thing. And I'm like, uh-huh, sure, uh-huh, what? He says, don't screw up. And then he walks away. And I was like, oh my goodness. Okay. And he was joking, but he was trying to loosen me up. But then I'm preaching that morning. That's my preaching. And I am sweaty. My palms are sweaty. My mouth is dry.
[27:49] I'm nervous, all those things. I have my hand on my Bible and my hand is sweaty. And it's one of those very thin page Bibles. And as I'm talking, my hand comes up off the Bible, but Ephesians chapter 4 comes up with it. It rips off the Bible, and it's just right here on my hand, waving hello to the entire congregation, and everybody laughs.
[28:15] And I'm embarrassed, but it was just this old moment where everybody in the congregation just took that moment of like, it happens, right? And that was always this moment of grace because I was, I mean, the way that they made me feel after that service, knowing like, hey, that happens, like that was fantastic, you know, as if I planned it or something, things like that they would say to me. And then the next service, because there was two services that morning, I got to retell tell that story and kind of reenact it. And it was just, there was that, and so there was that moment of grace, like, this is where it happens. This is the spirit at work, right? And we forget sometimes as pastors that God called us to these things, to this work, and that the spirit is with us in this work. And yeah, there are times when we mess up or we're not at our best, and yet Yet something is done good because the spirit is at work.
[29:18] You know, we've joked, we've seen the memes on Facebook. It's like, I thought this was my best sermon and nobody said anything to me. And then somebody told me this was my best sermon and I thought it was the worst thing I've ever done. It's like, I don't know what I'm doing. And then there's a story Fred Rogers tells about him sitting in a church, listening to a sermon. And he said, it's the worst sermon he'd ever heard. and he's like, nothing about this was what we were taught in seminary and he was just so distraught and just saddened about what was being said in this sermon. And then he says, and then the woman sitting next to me leaned over and looked at me and said, he said exactly what I needed to hear.
[30:01] And he talked about how there's that holy space between the preacher and the listener. And while he came in judgmental, she was open to what the Spirit was doing in his not so great words, right? Right. And not to negate the presence of the spirit, which is more powerful than anything we can say. It humbles us when we try to be at our best and or when we think we've done our best. And then it pushes us forward when we think we've done our worst. And so to me, that's the grace and the work of ministry that you can't artificially create. You can't take away those moments. You can't.
[30:43] And those are the things you remember. Those are the meaningful part. I can't remember what I actually preached in those sermons in my internship, but I remember that moment when I ripped the Bible page right off and how the congregation laughed and then loved me at the same time. I mean, that was indispensable to me. And that to me, that's the spirit of work. That's us going, you know what? It's okay. God's saying, I've got you still. Um, and yeah, so that, that's where, that's where AI is going to fail always is that the AI is not the spirit and never should we try to replace the spirit with anything else, but the spirit. Right so let's kind of wrap this up there is one question i have is what advice do you have for, you know someone who is in seminary or planning to go to seminary especially a younger person.
[31:44] Um who is you know probably more than you or i are are bathed in technology and probably far far more familiar with AI, what advice would you give them as they're heading in and preparing, to write sermons and write that newsletter article or what have you? And there is, again, AI that is there. What advice would you give them?
[32:15] The thing that comes to my head immediately is to remember that you are not alone and to reach out to others who can help, um and there are moments when i'm going hey i am stuck or i've got a friend one of my one of those one of those good friends of mine who read my my benedictions has reached out to me and said hey hey, I'm struggling this week with my sermon. Can you read it and look at it and just give me some insights and vice versa? We forget like technology is sort of the, what we kind of think of first is our resource. Like that's the thing we have to go to, but, but maybe don't go there first, maybe reach out to a professor or a colleague, a friend, or somebody who has nothing, no connection to you. Cause you just need that outside voice. Right.
[33:10] Again, looking for the personal, because that was one of the beautiful things after, after failing an old Testament midterm and having that, fear, one of my colleagues in seminary, one of my classmates in seminary, who was a senior and I was a junior, he said, you will get through this one. And then he's like, don't take this so seriously. Like, do the work, but don't put everything that you think that, you know, don't put your whole seminary mindset into just this one paper, right? If it's not great, you'll figure it out and you'll get through it. And then later in the semester, he's like, hey, let's go with some friends. We're going to go away for the weekend in this cabin and everything. But I've got this Hebrew final that I've got to do and I've got to study for. He's like, you can still do that on the way. And I said, oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was amazing having that weekend away, right? To be human and to relax a little bit in the midst of the most stressful moment of my seminary career, really, was the finals, because I knew what had happened in midterms, knowing what could happen again if I'm not careful. Yeah.
[34:25] There was that person who was just there to support and say, you know what, you need a moment to get away. And he was right. And I did fine. And I graduated and I don't regret that I didn't make all A's in seminary. I don't regret that I wasn't perfect. I learned what I needed to learn and I learned how to learn and I learned how to be better. And I continue to do that. So that's the thing with seminarians. If you're, find your people who can help you be your most authentic you. That will help you in ministry far beyond any good resource you can find in terms of making your paper that much better.
[35:03] Your job is to find the pastor that's in you and people help you do that. So find your people. That's probably the most important thing, the lesson that I've I've taken from my seminary experience. And I think that that's probably still good experience and important experience, especially in this age where technology can do so many things for us is to remember. And isolate you. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The, the human connection is so we, which is so important. And when you have it, you go, why would I try to replicate this any other way? And for pastors we need that connection too especially in a profession that can be very isolating and lonely at times if you're a solo pastor in a rural community for example and you're all by yourself or you don't know anybody else so, find your people no matter where they are and that's the great thing about technology it's like hey we can communicate even though we're states you know hundreds of miles away from each other thanks be to god for this right it's only going to get better but.
[36:13] Um, we need our people. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things that's kind of an aside is that I wished years ago that we had had more kind of discussion about social media. And I'm not one of these people that blame social media for everything, but we also never really talked about it's up. It's good and bad. Right. Um, in the way that I think we are kind of doing that more with AI. AI.
[36:43] Of course, we also have all watched, you know, Terminator and Fear AI. So we're, of course, going to talk about it. But I wish we had done that with some other technologies, because sometimes.
[36:57] You know, it's not trying to say don't use it, but I think that we just need to discuss how can it be used and how does it continue, you know, foster human connection instead of, you know, maybe weaken it watch um if you haven't seen the movie wally by disney pixar like oh i have yes that that's like that foreshadows has foreshadowed and it's that was done almost 20 years ago now but it foreshadowed so much of what this technology is doing to us and sort of giving a vision of how far we can let it go in order to to kind of take away who we are as as as humans so So yeah, that's to me has always been one of those moments for, or that film has always kind of stuck and kind of reared its ugly head as things keep evolving going, Oh man, this just looks like Wally is just being more real than real every day. And that's not even the main part of the story. That's sort of the underlying little side note of the story. If you're really paying attention to the, and you're looking beyond the plot of the film, you know? So, but yeah, we have to watch it. I remember that part of the story. And yeah, so it's, Both my husband and I, we think about that every so often about certain technologies or things. It's like, oh, we're going to end up in that chair. In that chair. Yeah. Yeah. Sipping on slurpy food for the rest of our lives.
[38:23] And that great scene, too, where they bump into each other and all of a sudden one touches the other and then they just have this rush of emotion. Like, oh, wow. Like human touch.
[38:34] They've missed that aspect. Like there's something so important about that human connection that we need in general and we definitely need in ministry. My goodness, do we need that? Yes, we do. Yeah. So if people want to contact you or kind of chat with you more about this, where can they go? That's a great question. I don't have a website or anything like that that I do for myself. But if you go to the Ozarks.edu and type in Jeremy Wilhelm or type in Chaplin, my name will come up and you probably find me that way. Get contact email, things like that. My last name is a little funky to spell because it's Wilhelm, but has a silent I at the end. But I'm also on Instagram. My university link is U of O underscore Chaplin. And that's where I post content for my students mostly just to let them know what's going on and things. But I'm easily found. You can easily find me that way. U of O underscore Chaplin. Um, and, uh, you know, find a social media somewhere. I'm probably there, but, um, you know, Ozark study to use probably the easiest, fastest way to find me. All right. Well, Jeremy, it was great to have you back. I hope we can have you back on another, another topic sometime soon. So I will see you soon. Thanks, Dennis. It's always a joy to be with you. All right.
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[40:25] Well, thank you for listening to this episode and the conversation that I had with Jeremy. You can, just as a reminder, find the article that Jeremy wrote for Presbyterian Outlook. The title of it, which I didn't say earlier, is Beyond Artificial Words, The Pastoral Heart in the Age of AI. And I will also put a link to his previous episode on the chaplaincy, and those will be in the show notes. That is it for this episode of Church in Maine. Remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast app so that others can find this podcast. I hope that you can pass this episode along to family and friends who might be interested. And finally, consider donating. And you can do that in two ways. You can donate at the Substack. And you can also donate. There is a link in the show notes to our donor box site where you can donate. And that helps actually make sure that I can continue to produce good content and good episodes and interviews. So, I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you again for listening. Take care, everyone. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
[41:38] Music.