Here is the transcript for Episode 193: Biden's Exit and Aging Gracefully with Loren Richmond Jr.
00:01 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Well, hey, Loren, thank you for coming on. This has kind of been thrown together all at the last moment it's. I know in some political pods they kind of call this an emergency podcast and this is kind of that. So some people actually have been talking about that this might happen this weekend and I wasn't too certain this was going to happen. But I'd love to get your thoughts about Biden stepping out of the race and what does this all mean and what are your first thoughts and reactions to all of it?
00:49 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
to all of it. Yeah, obviously quite surprised. I was sitting in church and my phone started buzzing. So you know I'm trying to like it was actually a pretty good sermon by the pastor. So I was trying to like ignore it. And then I looked I'm like, oh my goodness, I want to tell my wife.
01:02 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So it was certainly surprise and shock, but also I should say like surprise but not shocked, but still wow yeah, it kind of feel like we knew that this was coming or at least might be coming at some point. Right, um it just. But still, when it um, I was out, it was after church and having lunch with my husband and I just kind of saw it crossover. I actually saw it first on Twitter, but I'm immediately when. I see something on Twitter. I'm a little skeptical.
01:36 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Right right.
01:38 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
But then saw the news brief from on my phone and it was like this is real and just kind of knew it was happening, but still was surprising that it happened. What do you think is going to be happening moving forward?
01:58 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
I mean I've been following on threads and just scanning the Apple news on my phone quite a lot throughout the day and it seems like there's a lot of unity around Harris. I imagine in the days maybe weeks, it probably days there'll be some opportunity for dissension, maybe weeks, but probably days there'll be some opportunity for dissension. But it does seem like whether I've heard different theories, whether that be like the rallying around Harris because they know it's the least kind of legally tenuous option, be I think another theory I heard was Biden basically said like I'm going to drop out, but it has to be Harris. So there's some different theories.
02:58 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
It certainly makes the most sense I would think, practically speaking, to say like, hey, we have to go with Harris and there's just not enough time to do anything else. Yeah, I think it's kind of funny. Personally she's not my favorite, but I think, looking at this from an objective viewpoint, with the amount of time that they have before now and the convention, I don't think that they have a huge amount of time to try to decide Right, have a huge amount of time to try to decide right and right. To me, I think the more important thing is who do you get to balance out the ticket?
03:32
yeah yeah and um, and I think you know well I don't think she's the strongest candidate. She's also been vice president for last four years, so I'm hoping she was paying attention over the been taking notes over those last four years and I think again, if they can um get a strong vice presidential candidate, um that can make her more, make her appealing and hopefully gain some votes. So, there might be a chance here for a minute.
04:07 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm hearing. You know, I've heard different things, like Mark Kelly from Arizona Disciple Zone. Andy, how do you even say his name? I don't know. I should Bashar Bashir. Bashir, bashir, I should know that, forgive me, disciple Friends, kentucky, governor Wright, who else Shapiro from Pennsylvania?
04:28 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Shapiro from Pennsylvania.
04:30 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Cooper Wright from North Carolina. Roy Cooper from North.
04:32 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Carolina.
04:34 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
You know, there's some talk that I've seen about Buttigieg, but I don't really think that'd be a good option. I don't think so. Either Shapiro or Kelly, I mean maybe Cooper, but I don't. I think I personally think I mean Shapiro would be an obvious choice, just because Pennsylvania is so important, I think Shapiro is the obvious choice because it's it's probably, uh, the main um swing state that you need.
05:22 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Um right, the Democrats really can't win the White House without it. He's somewhat of a moderate which I think can appeal to people. I think he is young, I think he was 70, so he's like 51, which actually would finally put someone in my generation in the White House. But that one would be the most, I think, most realistic. I think Bashir has some good talent. I mean, obviously he's been able to win twice in a very red state, which is, I mean, do you think he's going to carry Kentucky? No, he would not carry.
06:11 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
And do you think Bashir on the ticket is going to carry? I mean Ohio's red, essentially red these days. Is he going to carry Wisconsin or Michigan?
06:21 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
just his presence, I don't think he's that big of a name. I think it would. You know when I people had talked about picking JD Vance and I had said that in both the announcement from Trump and from in listening to Vance's speech he kept mentioning a few states Pennsylvania, michigan. I think Wisconsin and Minnesota. He was trying.
06:50
That's why he was picked is because he was going to pick up those states and I think that the Democrats that would have to pick up, pick someone that is going to be attracted to those swing states and of all of those people it would have to be Shapiro.
07:08 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, I want to second your point. I know this is unpopular in a left-leaning context, but there really needs to be someone on the ticket who's centrist. I know that's an unpopular opinion amongst progressives Like AOC. Not a good choice. Someone of that? Not a good choice, whether it's fair or not. You know, for some reason the right in Trump has really been successful in painting Biden as a leftist and to some extent, I think Biden over the last months has sort of responded to that critique. Some of his the thing that comes to mind is certainly his immigration, some of his immigration policies.
08:26 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
There's something else I'm blanking on, but there's been some efforts by the Biden administration to kind of move centrist, which I think is implicitly a response to this critique fair or not that he's perceived as or at least his actions are perceived as, too far left. Yeah, and I, I don't know, I think sometimes he may have actually gone a little bit more, still pushing left, um. But I think having someone on the ticket that is not, that is more centrist, can blunt some criticisms. And against um Harris, because they will come Um and partially because she is, I think, far more progressive um than than Biden. So you're going to need someone that can buy, that can balance the ticket, that can maybe blunt some criticism, not all criticism, but some criticism. Um, I'm kind of surprised that there would be people that would want to have another progressive on the ticket, because it's kind of like um. Have you been paying attention these last few months?
09:25 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
this was going to be a. This was going to be a podcast episode of ours. You know, dennis, that I'm not sure many on the left are paying attention, which I think is the biggest problem.
09:36
So this kind of gets pushed aside a bit, since biden is stepping down, because there's kind of this idea that, like it would you know, the democrats were going to lose in 2024 in the November election and then it was just going to be oh, it's because Biden was too old. Well, I guess we're kind of getting a reset on that and we're going to get a chance to see, like, do the Democrats simply think the only problem is that Biden is too old, or is there some realization that their message is not resonating with enough middle Americans? I mean, I'm sort of shocked and perplexed that people can see that the Republican National Convention holding mass deportation signs now and just like not bat an eye at that, which kind of has me horrified. But also, I mean, I don't know, I, I don't know.
10:31 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
I'm perplexed and at a loss well, I'm wary about seeing that, but I I can also. Well, I can also understand, because there have been a lot of, there have been some polls that have said that a majority of Americans support that, because I think that they are frustrated that there hasn't really been any type of way of controlling the immigration at the southern border. And this is again this is anecdotal for me, but I have a cousin, when I was in Michigan recently, back home in Michigan was talking about the fact that something that he was in need of, but that I guess the thing about giving benefits to people who have requested asylum and are kind of waiting and all of that. So I think that there is a lot of anger in the public that there hasn't really been anything done to kind of curb this. I don't think that mass deportation is the answer, but I can understand why people.
11:45
I can understand it in some way, the anger.
11:50 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
I'm going to say this and choose my words carefully here. I guess I'm certainly more progressive than you, or left than you, on many political issues. I think you know I've than you or left than you on many political issues, I think you know, in seminary.
12:12 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
I took a study trip to the border.
12:14 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
So I very much have a soft spot in my heart for folks who are just trying to come and get a better life for themselves. That being said, I live in the Denver Metro and the Denver Metro, really, this summer, spring summer has really been a good evidence of like at some point. There really not enough housing. Sure, are there more resources available? In theory, yes, but within the resources available, within the tools available, denver really found themselves completely tapped out, completely tapped out and cutting some, some city budget items around the, around the edges to try to to make up for some shortfalls. So there, there really is a challenge and I think that's, I think that's the, I think that's one of the limitations from the left is this does not address.
13:25
Is we, yes, we can say like, especially from a faith perspective, that we can talk about abundance and welcome, and that's true, and I think again, probably differently than you, that tax policy could add to the budget and help address many of these issues. But in the short term there is not enough resources and Denver does not have enough housing, as it is, for the residents here. So I don't want to be unwelcoming, I don't want to label and blame immigrants or asylum seekers, migrants as the enemy. I mean, I don't want to dehumanize them. I can totally understand someone in desperation trying to seek something better for the family, but I think it does help, or would be helpful, to have a realistic conversation about what the actual scope of the scenario is, rather than talking about oh, there's plenty of resources. Well, there may be, but we're not going to get to those resources anytime soon.
14:32 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Well, and I think you know, as a person of faith, I do have a hard time. That's where I I don't like, I get the the horror about the whole seeing signs about mass deportation, because I think that that's not, that's not the best way of handling this. Plus, I don't even know if it's realistic to do that, but it's. But I think it's speaking to a deeper problem and is that you know, we haven't really had a really good immigration policy. And I think that that's a problem on both sides, because I think on the left there has been kind of a willingness, unwillingness, to really have any type of a policy or to really say have any type of immigration control, and the right, I think, has been rather cynical in wanting the issue but not trying to solve it. And I think we have to find ways of trying to solve that issue. And I think sometimes especially the church has not been helpful in that, because at least in the neighborhood that we're in, in progressive churches, because we kind of just kind of say well, jesus welcomed a stranger.
15:53
And it's like, I agree with that. That is important. But that also doesn't mean that we just have a policy where we have no policy, or just say well, anyone can come for a lot of different reasons. You know resources we don't have. You know, a lot of this is placing a burden on cities and states, and that's a lot, and so how do you deal with that? How do we also even deal with some national security? And I'm not saying that every potential immigrant is a threat, that's not what I'm saying. But I am saying sometimes that people can come in who do not mean well, so how do you deal with that? And how do we, as people of faith, deal with that policy and not just kind of either, say with that policy and not just kind of either say you know, we're not going to have an immigration policy at all?
16:56 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
or we have to kick the foreigners out, which neither of which I think are helpful. Yeah, I would still certainly, and certainly we have some disagreement on this issue which is fine. I would certainly lean to one of welcoming and hospitality. Obviously, I would contextualize that with reality that there are, within context, so many resources go around. So we have to be somewhat judicious while I think, perhaps considering how, again speaking from a faith perspective how might we be able to be more welcoming and hospitable?
17:36
but I suppose we're kind of getting off topic here, maybe.
17:40 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Well, sort of, but I think it's an important issue to talk about and I don't know if we're that far apart on this. I think we both see the importance of immigration. It's not, you know, don't have immigration at all, or open borders. I think it's really the question of how do we manage that. The question of how do we manage that, and I think the problem is that I don't really feel that our leaders have been doing a good job on either at all period.
18:15 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, it seems like we are living in a time where there's less motivation for good faith efforts and instead just opportunity for grandstanding and no, and I agree with that, there is no such thing as good faith effort anymore.
18:37 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Everything is always bad. But I guess you know one probably final question, before we kind of move on a little bit to something related, is you know, where do you see all of this, how do you see the faith community handling all of this? And you know, we kind of talked a little bit about it with you know the vice presidential pick or immigration, but how do you see faith communities, how do we, as people of faith, handle this and how can we be supportive of whatever candidate we're choosing, without I'm just going to say it without being assholes.
19:24 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Well, I, it's funny when I was waiting for you to send me the link here, for I was just like surfing YouTube and seeing like a a trailer for the next God's not dead, and of course it's like painting this, whoever the the protagonist there is, like this savior of humanity, savior of Christianity, and like the evil, godless Democrats. So, gosh, I mean I think those are both caricatured both ways from either side of the. Anybody who's a Republican is obviously a Christian nationalist. Anybody who's a Democrat is obviously a godless, communist, atheist, whatever, and I wish there's more nuance and context. So I guess, I mean I think it has to start just with prayer and humility. I know those are hard to come by. I'm gonna certainly pray about. I mean, I mean, when the news, when I saw the news on my phone this morning, you know, I immediately said a prayer and I'm going to keep praying, like when we pray for our enemies, like we don't necessarily become best friends with them, but we develop a recognition of their humanity.
20:51 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Hmm, Hmm, well, that's an important thing I think that we need to hear today, because we aren't always good about that, but I wanted to move on. You wanted, when we were talking about this, to talk about an issue that is related to this Right concerns concerning age, but it's not really as much age as it is how he's aging and and certain issues like cognitive decline, and if you are of a certain age, we all at some point have a parent that we have to deal with. That is dealing with those issues that are not kind of what they once were. And you wanted to talk a little bit about kind of knowing when it's time to kind of hang up or to leave things or to step aside. So I thought I would let you kind of talk a little bit about that and kind of even some of your own concerns and things and own experiences that you were dealing with.
22:18 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah. So I found it kind of comical throughout the last couple of months when, like, both sides really were like critiquing the age and physical limitations of the other. Like it's kind of like, don't you all see what you're doing? I mean, for as much as it's, for much as Biden has taken criticism over the last several months, it's like from Republicans, it's like Republicans, you see what you're doing.
22:46 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
I mean, look at yeah, not like Trump was. And then of you?
22:51 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
you know, it was. Maybe it was later, maybe it was like february, march, april, where I I felt like there was more, like oh, trump is this, you know is struggling in his own right. And again I I was thinking, what Democrats do you know what you're doing here, like so I found it quite perplexing is again a way to say it, but it got me thinking. Our conversation here and certainly about this topic it got me thinking about I recently had to have a difficult conversation with my parents. My dad is 72. I don't even know, to be honest, 72, 73. He's been, he's been dealing with Parkinson's.
23:37
He was diagnosed about two, three years ago, really about three years too late, in all honesty, um. So, obviously, like, being on medicine has really like slowed the decline. Thank, thank God, um, but it's still. It's still pretty scary. I mean, I was, I was over there well, a couple of times, obviously recently, but, uh, one recent time, and I just like man, this is, it's scary, it's, it's really scary. And I remember having a conversation with my wife one night when we were trying to get to sleep and she said you know, are we, are you ready for um to have a conversation about your parents passing away? I said, no, I'm not, um. So it's a Dennis, I know you're, you're, you're right there, you've been been there and, and my condolences and my heart goes out to you because, just being on this other side of it, I can only imagine what it's like to be on the other side. So, um, may God's peace be with you as you continue to you and your families, you continue to mourn and grieve and process all this. So I, my mom, was.
24:46
It was like, uh, denver had had a hot streak, like the whole country did as we're recording this a week, two weeks ago, I can't remember, and it was going to be this that weekend, like 100, 101, 102, back to back back, and my mom serves at a food pantry, and Monday of the week, when I saw the forecast, I said mom, you need to cancel because it's outside. It's outside for three, four, five, six hours.
25:09
I said Mom, you need to cancel because it's outside. It's outside for three, four, five, six hours. I said, mom, you need to cancel. Monday. I said, mom, you need to cancel, no, I can't cancel. So Friday morning comes around. I'm worried, sick, worried, sick, praying, worried, sick. I'm just like she's going to end up at the hospital today. So I go to bed. I called her like at night oh, I'm fine, I'm like great, okay, I was wrong, I'm great, sure enough, like next morning I had to call for my sister, like, oh yeah, mom went to the hospital at 2 am last night and it was nobody knows, but it was probably heat related, sort of a heat allergic reaction, because again, it was like 100 degrees all day. And so my mom's doing this food pantry, good, good ministry, which she loves. My dad is serving a very small baptist church and still, to be frank, fruitful and minister, like he just baptized a couple people, I think, recently, like I, like. I mean, how many churches, dennis, do we know who have not baptized anybody for?
26:12 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
years.
26:14 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Obviously he has a different evangelical focus than some of our disciples' friends or mainline friends.
26:20
But still right, but it's just like a. I remember when this stuff first became real for me, I just became frustrated with how seemingly impossible it was to speak truth to my parents and I told one of my good friends here in town. I said, if you know me, in 30 years, I need you to speak truth to me, please speak truth to me. And it just struck me like thinking about this I need you to speak truth to me, please speak truth to me. And it just struck me thinking about this. It seems like whether it was Obama, whether it was some other Democratic leaders Biden was in a place where he had people in his life who could speak truth to him and he could listen to them. Because I think for my parents, I don't know if they have really anybody in their life who will speak truth to them.
27:11
And I did that gently last week, where I sat down with them and said hey, I love you. You know I want you guys to be around for 10 more years for my kids. You know I complimented their ministry and their faithfulness and said you guys are an example to me, to my family, to your family. But we need to think about wrapping it up. It doesn't have to be tomorrow, it doesn't have to be next week, but I gave them a rough timeframe. I said I think a year, nine months, you know 13 months, but it needs to be, you know, sooner than later, to be sooner than later. And I remember I can't remember, I couldn't find the actual title of the book, dennis, but I think it came from a Jeff Henderson who's an evangelical author and pastor, but I have a recollection of him writing a book about something about last lap or something to that extent, using that metaphor, kind of knowing when your time is coming. I think that's so difficult for leaders and I think we see it right in clergy and pastoral leaders.
28:26 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So I mean kind of from your experience I. I mean, how do you have that conversation to tell people it's time to step aside or time to for help?
28:39 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
um, yeah, especially if someone you know go ahead yeah, I use the, the, the non-violent communication kind of framework, the Marshall.
28:49
I think Marshall Rosenberg, where it's like you observe, you share your feelings, and I'm already forgetting the second half of it, the four steps observe, share feelings, make a request or it's need and then request. I think something to that extent, but that's basically what I said. I said, you know I, I'm observing, mom and dad, that you seem to be in the hospital a lot Like, it seems, in my. I'm laughing rather than crying, right Um, you know I. I said it makes me feel nervous and scared. And, like I said, I said I want you all to be around for my children for at least 10 more years. And I said can we, can we figure something out here? So that's.
29:39 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
I was surprised about how well they received it, frankly it frankly, um, but also I think it would help if there was a peer, not their son or child, you know though the thing is is that it's probably more often than not going to be a son or a child or a son-in-law or something like that. It it's going to be people, um, because sometimes the peer may not always see the same things either Um, or might not be in the same place to say that Um.
30:20 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
so I mean again, I guess, that tracks right with what we're talking about nationally with. It seems like the reporting was right that Jill Biden was supportive of of Joe, and it seems like the reporting was right that jill biden was supportive of of joe and it seems like it was not necessarily peers, but it was, I mean, I guess pelosi is a peer right, but I mean, again, if reporting is accurate, it was barack obama and other and again I think Barack Obama and other and again I think I don't know the. So I guess, I guess I'm just thankful that in this instance, it appears that Biden had the humility to listen, which is thankfully, I think. I think my parents have had that humility and it's important.
31:13 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Yeah, you know. I think the other thing, though, is in this situation is that I think, ultimately, he did have Biden, did have the humility, but I also think early on it's kind of like I think I heard someone on the radio kind of talk about you know, it's almost like you're going through the different stages of grief.
31:31 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, and I think early on.
31:33 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
He did not want to accept that. He didn't want to accept that. You know the polls were saying you're slipping. You know he was very much. You know things are fine and I think there might have been people around him that said that too. Things are fine, and I think there might've been people around him that said that too. But but it wasn't until maybe a point that he finally just could not. Basically all the things that he kind of had around him that could kind of shield him from that reality just didn't work anymore and he had to accept this is, this is happening, this is where the correlation of ministry and pastoral ministry really comes together.
32:10 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Because what Biden has been in public service for 50 years, right?
32:14 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
50 years.
32:14 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, 50 years. You know my dad has been in ministry at least 40.
32:22
And there was about there was a seven year when I was a, when I was a, when I was a kid, we moved from New York City where he was a pastor, and for seven years he wasn't a pastor. So I mean, I had a little conversation with him just the other day too, sort of about this topic, where I said man, dad, I hate not being a pastor and I long for the day to be a pastor again. And what was that like for you? And you know, I said it's been like seven months for me and it feels like forever. And you seven know, having been in in leadership for 20 plus years 25 years I think in this go around, I can totally understand not wanting to give it up. Similar for Joe Biden, similar for for any like pastor out there.
33:41 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So I don't say it's easy to just walk away. Biden, there was a lot of anger towards his wife, which I guess on a political level from outsiders, that she was protecting him or kind of enabling him, and maybe from a political standpoint, yeah, that makes some sense. But from a family standpoint, when it's your loved one that might be going through some stage of decline, sometimes it's hard for them to accept that, they don't want to accept that they are dealing with someone who is declining. And so I guess for me that there's something it's important to take that note of this is a family thing, it's not just an individual. And maybe from a specific standpoint, just to spare some sympathy for her, because that cannot be easy to see a loved one kind of decline like that.
34:47 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, I mean from a child. It's awful and I'm sure you can speak similarly right.
34:53 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
You know, your mom had a stroke right. Yep, she did.
34:56 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, so I mean for my dad, until he got that Parkinson's diagnosis, just like it was, just like he'd fallen off a cliff and.
35:06
I was like what is going on on? So I think, regardless of whether there is a precipitous drop off, you know, and I think some will argue, well was I don't know if you've heard this dennis, but I've certainly heard like, oh, it's his, his stuttering that's getting in the way, like, regardless what it is, I think we can. I think most intellectually honest people would agree, like at 81, like it's time to call it quits, even if you're sharper than attack, like even if you are, like, ready to run a marathon, like maybe because again I think I hope to be working, Because again I think I hope to be working. I mean I love to work and I hope I'm involved in some type of ministry to the day I die, whether paid or volunteer. But I also hope that I have the wherewithal to recognize like, hey, I need to move on out of the way, at least of leadership.
36:15 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So you know, and I think you know you were talking a little bit about the decline and um with mom, that was hard Um, just because, uh, you know I mean she had had some decline, because you know I mean she had had some decline before the stroke, but it wasn't, you know, the big drop off, Whereas, you know, with the stroke there was the big drop off and that continued and that is a hard thing to deal with. It's something you know.
36:46
I would be honest, I'm still dealing with something you know, I would be honest, I'm still dealing with. You know that. You know, I think that that's, if anything, anything that these last month, this last month, has showed us, is how um difficult it is for families to deal with aging loved ones. Um, it's just that this time we got to see it in the midst of a presidential race is for families to deal with aging loved ones. It's just that this time we got to see it in the midst of a presidential race and you know we have politics thrown into it.
37:19 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
But at the end of the day, it's also about an aging person, a loved one, someone's father someone's husband and I think, if I can shift the conversation this way, it brings to mind something that I think is important here, that I'm going to guess just based on what I think I know about Barack Obama and the kind of person he is again from a totally outsider perspective, but also thinking about the relationship he probably has with Joe Biden that it's through relationship and caring relationship that we can come to people saying that we care about them and speak truth into their lives.
38:08
I think so much, so much I mean I just had it in a, just had this conversation with Megan Bissell from Future Faith, a conversation that'll air in the future on my podcast about the importance of real change only coming through relationships. Like if we're really going to see change come in our country, in our families, in our communities, in our churches, like it's going to come through relationship. Like I don't think Joe Biden has dropped out because the media was harping on him. I don't think it's because enough people got on threads or Twitter or Facebook and said he needs to drop out. Like I think he dropped out because people that he trusted and loved and people cared about him and he cared about, said hey, joe, here's the truth, and that's what we need more of.
39:09 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So where does the church fit in all this? Because there are lots of families that deal with this and you know we're both pastors, but it's not even just pastors that can do something. But as a community, as we're all dealing with this, how can the church be supportive of families who are dealing with a loved one that is showing signs of either because of Parkinson's or because of some other cognitive decline or some other issue? How can we support them and support the person at the center and who's dealing with all of this?
39:49 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Man, it's really hard and I just say that like as someone who's dealing with all of this man it's really hard and I just say that like as someone who's dealing with that personally and also like in literally right now in my profession, is working with aging adults and it's really complicated because, like, the reality is you cannot make someone do something and and sometimes, like I, I'll try to be careful with my words her first, for HIPAA sake, right literally had a resident to try to communicate with family. Hey, this, this person is showing cognitive decline again and again. Again, family didn't do much, obviously, resident didn't want to do anything, wasn't in the place to do anything, you know, and now they're hospitalized and going to facility. So it's tough, like it's tough and I think it's practically speaking, like really practically speaking, like you have to be proactive, and this is one of my frustrations with my parents is I'm like come on, like I can see the future and this is where we're headed, and so being proactive as possible is important, uh, practically speaking, for church and families, I think also like just trying to create emotional space. I don't know if I heard, where I heard that term, but I've been using it a lot Like I.
41:18
I think what helped with my conversation with my parents is just creating some emotional space with them where I kind of shared, like I was vulnerable a little bit and and kind of opened up an emotional space. Kind of opened up an emotional space and I think, you know, my dad said something about, you know, wishing he'd take me to Little League more. I'm like dad, I don't even know what you're talking about, like I don't care, but I kind of recognized like he was sharing an emotional feeling himself and it was because I had opened up some emotional space for him and you know, and for them. So I think, and again I again this conversation or this point came up with my conversation with Megan Bissell, because again, we both love Andy Root.
42:03
But the testimony like this is again where I think sharing story and testimony in church can be important, because you're sharing Like hey, like imagine we could sit around a table in church Sunday or on a Sunday or or during a small group and just say, hey, this is the real struggle, I'm dealing with my family and you know, maybe there's a third person sitting with us, dennis, who's not yet come to that, or maybe he's already dealt with that and there's no real, there's no magic bullets, there's no solutions. But we can sit with one another and pray with one another and maybe we can offer a few practical tips, but I think just having people to share together in the journey or the struggle goes a long way. Hmm.
42:54 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Yeah, I think that that's something that's important is it's kind of to help people know they're not alone in all of this and it's interesting. I've seen this a lot more. It's funny generationally, um, just because I think we're from different generations of generation x, I feel like we're dealing with that more just because we have, you know, we're older, but so you're actually the maybe the first millennial that I know that has been starting to deal with this apparently millennial is the problem yeah, um, but no, I mean.
43:36
what I'm getting at is that you'll start to see more and more friends that you know that will be dealing with that, because it's also even just having to pray let's just doing a lot of praying and and um, and that's hard and and to pray through all of that and and pray for strength and and then there's also fear, because you don't know how your parents will take take it, um, and there's also fear because you don't know how your parents will take it, and then even prayers for yourself that you're not in your own sense of denial or not wanting to deal with some things.
44:25 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, or, you know, wishing I could do more. I think what I would say again, this is a good lesson for people to A think about from your own standpoint, like do I have people in my life who I know can speak truth to me? And then B is if I need to speak truth to somebody else, I need to be very wise and prudent and caring in the way that I do it.
45:05 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So in a ministry setting, there are some cases not many, but are some and it may not be necessarily a pastor. I have heard situations of a church musician or a church secretary that are just not as on the ball for whatever reason and they haven't left. And how do you speak to them? Because you know there have been lots of cases where churches don't and they kind of just don't want to deal with the issue because they are you know, they just don't want to deal with the conflict, which is understandable.
45:49 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
I think that's the worst, where it's kind of like just hoping they'll go away, or basically what happens is things get so bad and so disastrous like in this anonymous situation that I mentioned in my professional setting Like that's not a good outcome, that's not a good outcome.
46:10
I could be wrong on this, but this is my perspective. I think that I would encourage folks to take the approach that I tried to do with my parents, where you really speak to them in honor of their commitment and their ministry and their testimony and their legacy and then, like I said for my dad, like I said, hey, we'll, like, we'll throw you a ministry retirement party. Like, well, you know, we'll celebrate, like you have been faithful. I can't remember if I used these words or not, but you know I said something to the extent of like you know, well done, good and faithful servant. Like is accurate For my father, for my mom, for many longtime church volunteers. Like you need to. I mean this is getting really cut and dry. Like, like you needed. I mean this is getting really cut and dry. Like sometimes you need to be at a fire volunteers, whether they're paid or not. And again, I wouldn't fire them, I would say try to gently encourage them toward other options.
47:16 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Hmm, yeah, I think it kind of reminds me.
47:25
There's a I don't know if you've ever watched the TV series uh Grace and Frankie um was on Netflix several years ago but one of the characters was a lawyer who was semi-retired and he was having to deal with a secretary who was starting to kind of not been there staying on because he was starting to not be on the ball as he used to be, and so I mean, they ended up both deciding it was time to retire fully.
48:08
But it was just kind of an interesting way of how they were trying to deal with this very delicate issue, you know, for someone that had been working there for such a long time, and how he was trying to deal with it with gentleness, but how she in some ways turned it around and dealt with it with a whole lot of grace as well towards him, to allow him to be free to let go. And I think that that might be some of the important thing in all of this is that there is a sense of grace, that what these people have done is important, it matters, and that, as they're kind of that, it's okay to let go and even to walk with them in whatever type of that transition might be. It may be something that they get to do something different, but it's how you treat the people, those people in that time. That matters too.
49:11 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Well to bring this full circle right. That's why I've been grateful to see on social media you know these very honorary comments about Biden and his many years of service. You know I saw something from former President Obama and others and I think it is important that the DNC convention to give him his due. I mean, we probably had disagreements about the effectiveness of some of his policies, like many others do, but I think, broadly speaking, I think he's a man who's been honorable and ethical and tried to do the right thing and I think we need more of that in our country and a man of faith.
50:02 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
And I will agree with you with this is that I think when some of that came on, I was a little cynical about it, but as I thought about it more, and even during this discussion, I think that that might be the right note, um, to say that you still matter, that you, whether or not, if you agree with his policies or not, um, that you know you matter, you're not just kicked to the side you're not just kind of forgettable that's even one of the things I told my dad like I produce a podcast for my dad right I mean, of course, right podcaster.
50:40 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
And I told dad, like we can still do the podcast even if you quit church, like I can set up something video for you, like it's good to have things to do and like people want to know, like that they matter. So certainly shoving someone to the side is not the right thing to do. And again to bring this back to a church context, like maybe can there be a way for, like the church secretary to still have some role, can you know? Can she come in and help the new secretary? I don't know. It's not going to work if you just like. Again, working with aging adults is a term we use. People need stuff to do. Like they just get in trouble if they're just sitting around all day A and it's not good for their mental health. So people need something to do. They do.
51:32 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
So Well, I think, at the end of the day, what this boils down to is dignity. Right, how do you treat someone, especially in this situation, with dignity?
51:46 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Mm-hmm Yep.
51:51 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
Yep, Well, I know that you are somewhat time limited and I wanted to try to keep this to no more than an hour.
52:05 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
So before I let you go. If people want to follow your podcast, where can they go? Yeah, future Christian Podcast on all the platforms and appreciate the listens and subscribes.
52:16 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
All right, well, lauren, thanks so much for being able to kind of work, throw this together at the last moment. I think that this is an important conversation to have on so many different levels.
52:29 - Loren Richmond Jr. (Guest)
Yeah, dennis, if I can jump in, because Jeff did this in your recent episode that I listened to. Let's just say a quick prayer for our nation right, exactly, yeah, yep, I will let you pray.
52:39
Okay, okay, dear God, thank you so much for Dennis and his ministry here on Church in Maine. Thank you for the ministry, the many ministry leaders that this goes out to and are navigating these difficult times each and every Sunday trying to preach and minister to their context. I do pray for our nation right now, as we continue in a very tumultuous and difficult time. I pray for prudence and for grace and for dignity and respect, for love of neighbor, for kindness, for the peace of Christ God. I ask this in Jesus' name, amen.
53:24 - Dennis Sanders (Host)
That's what we do as a nation right now need those prayers. So thank you so much. All right, Lauren, I will talk to you later. Take care, All right.