In a culture where churches increasingly demand ideological uniformity, is there still room for people who don't fit neatly into a camp? Dennis sits down with Garwood Anderson — former Dean and President of Nashotah House Theological Seminary, now a Senior Fellow at the Lumen Center — to talk about his article "A Place to Land," the story of a woman caught between conservative and progressive churches that each expected total agreement.
Together they explore why churches have become political litmus tests, how fear and distrust drive people to the poles, what it means to detach Jesus from being a "mascot" for our own side, and why a genuine Christian discourse might make everyone a little uncomfortable — and why that's exactly the point.
Shownotes:
Gen Z's Lost Hope-YouTube Preview
Join the Church and Main Email List
Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/) | Threads (https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod) | Website (https://churchandmain.org/) | YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast) | Substack (https://churchandmain.substack.com/)
00:00:26 --> 00:00:30 Hello and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:30 --> 00:00:34 intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:39 There's a quote that is attributed to President Ronald Reagan.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:43 I never know if it's, he actually said it, it's one of the things that you kind
00:00:43 --> 00:00:47 of think he said, but may have not. But anyway, it's attributed to him.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:49 And the quote goes like this.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:55 The person who agrees with you 80% of the time is a friend and ally, not a 20% traitor.
00:00:57 --> 00:01:02 Now, I've always loved that quote, because I think what it says is that it allows
00:01:02 --> 00:01:03 for diversity in groups.
00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 And I think most importantly, what it's trying to say is that a friend is not
00:01:08 --> 00:01:11 someone who agrees with you on every jot and tittle.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:20 To be honest, if I only had friends that I totally agreed with, I'd be pretty lonely.
00:01:21 --> 00:01:26 But the problem in our culture today is that there is so much of a drive right
00:01:26 --> 00:01:34 now to have friends and allies that have to agree with you 100% of the time.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 You're either all in or you're out.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:43 Now, what's really disturbing is when churches start to act like this.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:48 So, instead of being centered around something such as the communion table or,
00:01:48 --> 00:01:55 you know, Jesus, congregations start to be centered on something else, like cultural issues.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:01 And those become litmus tests. You either agree with those issues,
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 or you won't find a home at such a church.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:11 And what that means is that there is no place to land for people who don't fit.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:18 Looking for a place to land is kind of part of the headline for an article that
00:02:18 --> 00:02:22 I saw recently written by Garwood Anderson, and it was found in the Anglican
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 magazine, The Living Church.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:30 In that article, Garwood shares a story of a young friend who has trouble finding
00:02:30 --> 00:02:34 a church home because they don't,
00:02:35 --> 00:02:41 check all the ideological and cultural boxes of the congregations that they visit.
00:02:43 --> 00:02:48 So, I was intrigued by this article and wanted to talk to Garwood about this.
00:02:48 --> 00:02:55 So, he is actually my guest today to talk about this lack of being able to find,
00:02:55 --> 00:03:03 an 80% church and what that means for the church and for our society.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 Before we go into the interview a little bit about Garwood.
00:03:09 --> 00:03:16 He just recently ended his tenure as Dean and President of Nash-Toa House Theological
00:03:16 --> 00:03:18 Seminary in Nash-Toa, Wisconsin.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:24 Actually, he ended in 2024 and then began a part-time,
00:03:26 --> 00:03:30 Distinguished Fellow at the Lumen Center in Biblical Studies,
00:03:31 --> 00:03:36 which is located down the Road in Madison, Wisconsin, and as of July 2026,
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 he is now a full-time senior fellow.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:49 Garwood Anderson has had basically a lot of diverse ministry roles in 40 years
00:03:49 --> 00:03:55 of ministry that is centered on teaching, scholarship, academic leadership, and mentoring.
00:03:56 --> 00:04:00 For 18 years, he was in campus ministry with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:05 He also served on the faculty of Asbury Theological Seminary,
00:04:06 --> 00:04:08 then later at Nashtoa House,
00:04:09 --> 00:04:17 and where he was named Professor and Dean Emeritus for 19 years of distinguished service.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:23 He's been married to Don for 43 years, and they have three married children
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 and four grandchildren.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:30 So with all of that, join me in this conversation of Looking for a Place to
00:04:30 --> 00:04:32 Land with Garwood Anderson.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:59 All right. After many little technical difficulties there, Garwood,
00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 thank you for joining me this afternoon.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:08 I wanted to start off by knowing a little bit about who you are and your faith background.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:16 Yeah, well, first, just thank you for inviting me. And I'm looking forward to
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 having our conversation today. It's very kind of you to make the invitation.
00:05:21 --> 00:05:27 If it looks like I'm at a cabin, it's because I'm at a cabin and enjoying a
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 little bit of work remotely.
00:05:30 --> 00:05:34 And so this works out well for me today.
00:05:35 --> 00:05:40 I don't know how hot it is in the Twin Cities, but it's been pretty hot in Wisconsin.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:43 And it's a little bit cooler up here in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:53 I agree. It has been hot here this week, and that's after a fairly cool June.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:56 Right? We've had a delightful summer so far.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 It's made us wimps, I think, but nonetheless, here we are. Yep.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 Well, you asked about my background.
00:06:05 --> 00:06:11 I have, for the last 19 years, served as a professor of New Testament and Greek
00:06:12 --> 00:06:17 at an Episcopal seminary called Neshota House, which is west of Milwaukee,
00:06:17 --> 00:06:20 east of Madison in southern Wisconsin.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:26 And that seminary is 144 years old.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:34 And I have been there for 19 years. And my responsibilities there have been
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 teaching in the field of New Testament.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 And for seven years, I was the dean and president of the seminary as well.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:49 Um, and so my background is, um, I really grew up in an evangelical background.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:55 Um, and you know, I know evangelicals come in kind of all kinds of sorts and
00:06:55 --> 00:07:00 flavors, even though mostly these days it tend to be defined politically.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:08 Um, I would say that I was raised in a, like a really pretty healthy evangelical environment.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:13 And, you know, over time with my theological studies and so forth,
00:07:13 --> 00:07:21 I found myself getting pulled more, as some people do, to the church's larger tradition.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:28 And I found that there was a place for a lot, not all of my evangelical upbringing,
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 to find a home in the larger context of Anglicanism.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 And so for about 20-something years, I've been an Episcopalian.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:46 I'm a lay person, and I've served in a context where there are many clergy,
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 and of course, the vast majority of our students, almost all of them,
00:07:49 --> 00:07:56 are preparing for a future in holy orders, the priesthood, maybe some deacons.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:02 So thank you for that introduction. I think one of the things that we wanted
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 to talk about is actually kind of within your wheelhouse.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:10 And this was an article you wrote for Living Church magazine,
00:08:10 --> 00:08:13 and it was entitled A Place to Land.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:22 And the thing that was interesting about it is it so much reflects the times that we live in.
00:08:23 --> 00:08:31 And I think the first thing I wanted to just kind of talk about is what led you to write it?
00:08:32 --> 00:08:36 Well, let me back up a bit. What is the article about for those who haven't,
00:08:37 --> 00:08:39 read it? And then what led you to write it?
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 Sure. Okay. Well, the article,
00:08:44 --> 00:08:50 it tells the story, and then hopefully with some takeaways, tells the story
00:08:50 --> 00:08:57 of a friend of mine who was kind of trying to find a place to land in the church.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:07 And in a season of sort of great polarization, she was finding it hard actually
00:09:07 --> 00:09:13 to find a place to land in that the church that she had been attending,
00:09:14 --> 00:09:18 she didn't see completely eye to eye with the doctrinal statement,
00:09:18 --> 00:09:21 although was happy to be in fellowship nonetheless.
00:09:21 --> 00:09:25 And they insisted that she be in complete agreement, even on some things that,
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 a lot of Christians disagree on.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:31 And then she started looking elsewhere. And,
00:09:32 --> 00:09:36 the reason that I thought the story was particularly important,
00:09:37 --> 00:09:41 is I was writing for an Anglican audience, mostly Episcopalians,
00:09:41 --> 00:09:46 and just saying one of our problems in the mainline church today is.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:54 Even though we talk a lot about hospitality, some of our choices and behaviors
00:09:54 --> 00:10:01 and even self-understanding doesn't always send as much of a welcome as we believe that we're sending.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:07 And so essentially she went from a, she was coming from a, I would say,
00:10:07 --> 00:10:15 conservative, clearly conservative, and more Reformed or Calvinistic church setting,
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 was trying out some Anglican alternatives.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:25 And the Episcopal Church surely would have welcomed her into membership,
00:10:25 --> 00:10:29 but they sent a lot of signs that said, well, maybe you wouldn't fit here.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:35 And the same thing happened when she tried an Anglican church that belongs to
00:10:35 --> 00:10:43 the newly founded breakaway body called the Anglican Church of North America and she,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:50 heard opposite and observed opposite signals there, that maybe this wasn't a good fit either.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:54 And so sort of the takeaway for my readership was, you know,
00:10:54 --> 00:11:00 we need to do a better job of making sure that there's a place for people who
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 don't hold to some kind of party line.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:08 And I think, you know, as maybe we were saying before, that in our politically
00:11:08 --> 00:11:15 divided setting, It has crept into the religious world and created.
00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 These bifurcations where never the twain shall meet.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:25 And it's actually harming our churches. It's harming our Christian witness.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:29 It's harming people, as in the case of this story.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 I mean, you say something towards the end of the article.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:40 Kind of talking a little bit about the Episcopal Church, but I think Anglicanism
00:11:40 --> 00:11:46 in general, and probably the church in general, that it's a big tent and a blessed
00:11:46 --> 00:11:48 community for free thinkers,
00:11:49 --> 00:11:52 provided they are conformists.
00:11:54 --> 00:12:00 And, you know, I've seen that too. I mean, I, in the Christian Church Disciples
00:12:00 --> 00:12:07 of Christ, and know my way around a lot of other mainline denominations.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 And of course, since I live in Minnesota, I know a lot of Lutherans.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:19 And I think the thing that I've noticed a lot over maybe, I want to say the last 10 or 15 years is,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:27 is that there seems to be less room for people if they don't fit a certain way.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:32 And I don't want to make it sound like it's just within the mainline.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:35 I mean, I see that also in evangelicalism as well.
00:12:36 --> 00:12:40 I mean, what do you think is driving this, that there is this sense that you,
00:12:41 --> 00:12:49 basically have to—that there are basically litmus tests of who belongs and who doesn't belong,
00:12:49 --> 00:12:54 and that there just doesn't seem to be any room for difference?
00:12:56 --> 00:13:02 Yeah, wow, that's a huge question, but I think it's so important.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:07 I have a couple of thoughts, and then maybe we can go back and forth on this
00:13:07 --> 00:13:10 a little bit, but I think a place to start would be,
00:13:12 --> 00:13:20 it's always easier to identify yourself in terms of contrast.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:25 In other words, to say, we're not that kind of Christian.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 And you see this on the evangelical side as they cast aspersions,
00:13:31 --> 00:13:35 sometimes toward Roman Catholics, sometimes toward mainline Protestants.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:41 You see it in mainline Protestantism where you say, well, we're not those kinds of Christians.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:48 And especially as evangelicalism has, I think, let itself become more and more
00:13:48 --> 00:13:53 identified with a political set of stances and positions.
00:13:54 --> 00:14:00 So I guess the first thing I would say is that we often take a shortcut of deeper
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 self-understanding when we say we're not like them.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:11 Um, so that's a place to start. So one of the things that I've observed is,
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 especially when there are these divisions in the church.
00:14:14 --> 00:14:20 So, you know, Anglicanism is, uh, just speaking for my own tradition is sort
00:14:20 --> 00:14:26 of famous, um, and somewhat proud of being a big tent, right?
00:14:26 --> 00:14:30 I mean, you can, historians will push back and forth on this,
00:14:30 --> 00:14:38 but we're sort of proud of not sending everything Catholic, you know.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:45 To the garbage bin, but embracing it, and also receiving some gifts from Protestantism,
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 and sort of finding our way to hold these kinds of things together.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:57 And so, you know, back in the day, Anglicanism was sort of known for its basic
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 division was between so-called high church and low church.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 So the high church people had more Catholic affinities, a low church,
00:15:04 --> 00:15:05 more Protestant affinities.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:13 What has happened subsequently, though, is now it's more political, more.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 Social stances and that sort of thing.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:25 So it's a more what they would call a liberal or progressive and conservative
00:15:25 --> 00:15:26 or traditionalist divide,
00:15:27 --> 00:15:32 which is almost like a 90 degree swap of what it used to be,
00:15:33 --> 00:15:37 because you could have high church liberals politically speaking and high church
00:15:37 --> 00:15:39 conservatives you could have low church
00:15:39 --> 00:15:43 liberals you could have low church conservatives now we've sort of turned it
00:15:43 --> 00:15:49 in this current political environment we've turned that 90 degrees and it's not a helpful way,
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 to distinguish ourselves,
00:15:52 --> 00:16:00 Any kind of alliance that we make that's fundamentally first political or strongly
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 political is always going to damage our Christian integrity and witness.
00:16:08 --> 00:16:15 What do you think is driving that, that we seem to lead first with political
00:16:15 --> 00:16:21 or ideological commitments before we talk about any type of,
00:16:22 --> 00:16:23 theological commitments?
00:16:26 --> 00:16:32 Someone I know had a note on Substack that the Presbyterians are meeting right
00:16:32 --> 00:16:39 now, of the PCUSA in Milwaukee, and he was listing all the things that they're not talking about.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:47 Either like, you know, helping struggling congregations, helping college ministry,
00:16:47 --> 00:16:51 or things that are part of the ministry of the church.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 And then he said, what are they talking about?
00:16:54 --> 00:16:58 Basically, what you would hear at the Democratic National Convention.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:03 And this is not someone that's on the right, That's not who this person is,
00:17:03 --> 00:17:09 but I think it was kind of saying that it seems like everything is driven by politics,
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 or culture war, but not by the church.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 What do you think is pushing that?
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 Dennis, if we can figure this out today,
00:17:25 --> 00:17:30 I think we'll have something. Well, I mean, there's a few sort of obvious,
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 I think obvious answers. One is that we're inundated.
00:17:34 --> 00:17:40 We're just like, you know, 24-7 news cycle, social media, all the stuff that we all know about.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:46 We're just inundated with everything coming through political and polemical
00:17:46 --> 00:17:52 political lenses. So one of the things that Christians are doing is it's sort
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54 of natural, but it's completely different.
00:17:55 --> 00:18:01 You know, beneath us in an ideal sense, is that we're getting carried along
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 by that discourse as though it's the fundamental discourse,
00:18:05 --> 00:18:10 rather than, as you say, you know, a properly Christian discourse with properly
00:18:10 --> 00:18:11 Christian questions and so forth.
00:18:11 --> 00:18:15 So, I mean, some of it is just sheer exposure. And of course,
00:18:15 --> 00:18:20 everybody knows that the algorithms work by fueling the rage bait.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 They want you to see something that makes you angry.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 And then your feeds reinforce what you already think.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:36 And you kind of don't, you get trained out of empathy, which is a basic human
00:18:36 --> 00:18:40 and I would argue Christian virtue. So that's one thing.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:46 And in the process, I think our minds and our spirits and dispositions are getting
00:18:46 --> 00:18:53 reshaped so that we can't have a favorable, thoughtful discourse.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:54 Okay, so that's one thing.
00:18:55 --> 00:19:02 I think another thing is, you know, it's interesting that you use the PCUSA example.
00:19:03 --> 00:19:09 Here is a case, I'll offer this as a case study, and really without any kind
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 of judgment, just like an observation.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:18 The PCUSA is meeting. The PCA just met.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:24 Presbyterian Church of America, of course, is a breakaway from the PCUSA,
00:19:24 --> 00:19:28 sort of like the Southern Baptists were a breakaway from the American Baptists,
00:19:28 --> 00:19:32 although PCA is not as large, proportionally speaking.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:37 Okay, that's the conservative branch. PCUSA is the mainline branch.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:43 PCUSA is one of the questions they're taking up is their stance as a church on polyamory.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:47 The PCA,
00:19:49 --> 00:19:52 on the other hand, voted that women can't be deacons in the church.
00:19:54 --> 00:19:59 Now, if you can imagine anything more sort of polar than that, I can't.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:05 It's like, you know, an extreme, I would argue, both of those are,
00:20:06 --> 00:20:10 you know, whatever you think of the positions, they couldn't be more different, right?
00:20:10 --> 00:20:15 So when we only get used to talking among ourselves,
00:20:15 --> 00:20:19 there are things that become thinkable for us because we talk to like-minded
00:20:19 --> 00:20:24 people and there's a set of things that become unthinkable for us because the
00:20:24 --> 00:20:27 people that we're used to talking to can't think that way,
00:20:28 --> 00:20:34 so the fact that we are not engaging each other is actually making us more,
00:20:35 --> 00:20:40 it's driving us more to the poles and less to anything like a center but it's
00:20:40 --> 00:20:44 not so much that I think a center is the goal as much as the possibility of
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 conversation across the difference,
00:20:47 --> 00:20:53 because that possibility of conversation across a difference won't get us to agree on things,
00:20:54 --> 00:21:01 but it has the potential to create a kind of empathy between us where I can
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 say I think you're really wrong about that.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:11 But I can also understand why you have reached that conclusion And understanding
00:21:11 --> 00:21:16 it doesn't make me think you're right, but it at least helps me understand where you're coming from.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 And then we might, you know, find more and more points of agreement.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:26 We might find out that our Venn diagrams overlap a lot more than they are separated.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:31 And if that turns out to be the case, then, you know, we might actually enjoy
00:21:31 --> 00:21:37 a blessing and fellowship rather than constantly defining ourselves in difference from each other.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:44 So, I mean, one more thing to say, and I, you know, I think that maybe borders on the obvious,
00:21:46 --> 00:21:54 but the last 12, 15 years have been such a polarized, bifurcated,
00:21:54 --> 00:22:00 hostile, cultural and political environment in the U.S.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:09 And this has been a route to access power and Christians are going along with it.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 And not just in one direction.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:23 So I think we've become, you know, I guess the term, if you don't mind, is useful idiots.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:31 We've become political pawns for somebody else's game thinking that they're
00:22:31 --> 00:22:37 on our side, it's not so clear on the right or on the left.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:41 But I think especially on the right that the political powers are really allied
00:22:42 --> 00:22:46 with genuine, integral Christian commitments.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 I think instead they find where the audience is and see the,
00:22:53 --> 00:23:01 persuasiveness of making people politicizing people toward ends that will help
00:23:01 --> 00:23:07 them get to other agendas that maybe aren't Christian maybe are anti-Christian.
00:23:14 --> 00:23:19 I was going to share that I sometimes recount a story that I saw about 30 years
00:23:19 --> 00:23:24 ago when I was a member of a Baptist church in D.C.
00:23:26 --> 00:23:34 And at the time, it was a congregation that kind of spanned the gamut from evangelicals
00:23:34 --> 00:23:36 all the way to more liberal Baptists.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:42 And they were going to hire an associate pastor.
00:23:43 --> 00:23:49 And this was really at the time, especially this is an American Baptist congregation,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:53 where there was still a lot of people.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:59 Unease, especially on the issue of homosexuality in the church.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:07 And the pastor in question was someone who was much more gay-friendly,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 and that was a concern among some people.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:17 And I remember a woman got up, she was someone who I would say was on the evangelical side,
00:24:18 --> 00:24:25 and spoke for her and she had stressed that they don't agree on on stuff but,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 this is my friend and i'm gonna support her,
00:24:30 --> 00:24:34 and i just always remembered that that the this wasn't you know let's meet at
00:24:34 --> 00:24:40 the middle and all that but but they saw each other,
00:24:40 --> 00:24:46 as friends even if they disagreed on this important issue.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:52 And I think the thing that I notice these days is that you don't find that anymore.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:56 It's like if someone has another view, it's just like, well,
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 I can't have anything to do with them. They're bad. They're wrong.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:05 And I really am finding that more and more. And I think because we don't seem
00:25:05 --> 00:25:10 to spend time with people who we might not always see eye to eye,
00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 we don't, in some ways, as I think you talked earlier,
00:25:15 --> 00:25:17 we don't have that same empathy for people. I mean, yes. Yeah.
00:25:19 --> 00:25:25 And you probably know there are, there's a subset of evangelicals who are,
00:25:25 --> 00:25:29 you know, putting the adjective toxic on the word empathy.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:33 And also, you know, describing empathy is actually like a problem.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:36 And I can't imagine anything more sort of absurd,
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41 I understand what they're trying to say. They're saying, well,
00:25:41 --> 00:25:48 you can't let your feelings override your convictions. But I think what you're
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 trying to do is divide human beings into parts when we're wholes.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:57 So thinking and feeling, we have to hold it all together.
00:25:58 --> 00:26:02 And there are a lot of studies that tell us that feeling is an important aspect of thinking.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:08 And the thinking has a lot to do with, you know, how we end up, how we end up feeling.
00:26:08 --> 00:26:13 The point is you can't understand another person, um, especially somebody that
00:26:13 --> 00:26:18 you disagree with until you ask the kinds of questions like,
00:26:19 --> 00:26:23 um, I, what you're saying makes no sense to me, or I can't agree with it,
00:26:24 --> 00:26:29 but you have to ask the question, like, how does that make sense to that person in a non-combative way?
00:26:29 --> 00:26:34 What is it about their experience how they see the world what they've experienced
00:26:34 --> 00:26:40 um that if i understood it i could at least understand why they're making the,
00:26:41 --> 00:26:46 decisions they make or holding the positions they hold but unless you're willing
00:26:46 --> 00:26:51 to do that um it all you what will happen is you know we demonize each other,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:58 um and again all the tools are in place it's reinforced at the political level.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:03 It's reinforced by the way that the news is conveyed to us.
00:27:03 --> 00:27:09 And of course, the way that the internet and social media lock us down into
00:27:09 --> 00:27:17 particular stances where we don't even have a chance to hear what other people are thinking.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:23 And we're falling for it. That's my point. I mean, Christians should not be falling for this.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28 It's so antithetical to who we are, whatever your convictions are.
00:27:29 --> 00:27:31 To engage in this kind of partisanship.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:36 We should, you know, we should, in Christ, rise above it.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:41 And in our, you know, love for neighbor, even the neighbors,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 especially the neighbors with whom we have strong disagreements,
00:27:45 --> 00:27:49 you know, we should be seeking that kind of empathy that would help us understand them.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:54 Without, I loved what you said earlier didn't mean we're like looking for some
00:27:54 --> 00:27:58 soft mushy middle where our convictions go away,
00:27:58 --> 00:28:03 but we're looking for a relation uh relationships of reconciliation where even
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 in our disagreements we can understand one another.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:15 I think that also some of this comes down to fear, that people are fearful of the other.
00:28:17 --> 00:28:21 And I wanted to share something in my own context.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:30 A few years ago, I was just talking with someone about the importance of welcoming people,
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 especially even across the partisan divide. Yeah.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:40 And the congregation that I serve is, I would say, pretty left of center.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:50 And, you know, we're also, I think, in disciple-speak and open and affirming congregation. Sure.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:54 And immediately when I said that, there was some concern about that,
00:28:54 --> 00:29:02 that was this going to harm people and the LGBTQ folk in our congregation.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:07 And that bothered me because.
00:29:09 --> 00:29:15 I think, yes, you have to be careful, but I also think that this table is for
00:29:15 --> 00:29:19 everyone, the communion table, or it's not for anyone.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:26 And so, how do we have that kind of wide welcome, even when people don't always agree?
00:29:28 --> 00:29:33 But it seems like right now we're fearful. And so, we're fearful of the other
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 side that they're going to hurt us in some way.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:42 And so, we almost like put in these barriers to keep them out and protecting us.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 I think you're exactly right. And again,
00:29:49 --> 00:29:55 I think to your credit, you're suggesting that fear can be at work on,
00:29:55 --> 00:29:59 we're going to keep calling these sides, but on different ends of the spectrum,
00:30:00 --> 00:30:04 that fear is operative in both spaces and not just in one.
00:30:04 --> 00:30:10 I mean, I feel like I have more experience with the fears that are customary
00:30:10 --> 00:30:15 among conservatives, but also identify it as a fear.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:23 So, for example, you know, in the seminary that I taught at,
00:30:24 --> 00:30:30 you know, we were identified as a very conservative seminary in the Episcopal Church.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:36 You know people from another denomination may not have thought we were all that
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 conservative because of these spectrums you know or they're they're relative
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 aren't they but in any case so,
00:30:43 --> 00:30:46 in uh some of the circles i walked in,
00:30:47 --> 00:30:54 i definitely saw a fear at work that was like well we can't identify with a
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 seminary that's associated with the episcopal church,
00:30:57 --> 00:31:03 because the Episcopal Church is apostate and we need to be separate and have nothing to do with them.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:10 And I also experienced, I would say in equal measure, we can't be around those
00:31:10 --> 00:31:14 kind of conservatives because sort of by definition, they're toxic people.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:19 And the reality is there are toxic people. Toxic people do exist.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:28 So when somebody says, well, I am concerned that a more ideologically diverse
00:31:28 --> 00:31:35 body of people that I could be hurt in that context, that's not an unreasonable concern.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:41 But again, as Christians, what we would want to say is, well,
00:31:42 --> 00:31:50 that kind of toxicity and the way that people might want to use religion to
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54 actively hurt other people and so on, you know, we're not going to tolerate that.
00:31:55 --> 00:32:00 But we will tolerate diversity of opinion. So we want to actually shape a culture,
00:32:00 --> 00:32:09 wherein people have the freedom to hold diverse views and also to hold together as a body of people,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:14 with that diversity in a way where they, even in disagreement,
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16 can be in relationship with one another.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:21 And I mean, I think, you know, going back to even your earliest questions,
00:32:21 --> 00:32:27 I think one of the unspoken things so far is the Christian path is the hardest path.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:31 It's the path of the most resistance.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:39 It's a path shaped like the cross. And so it's not going to look like the easiest
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 thing and it's not the easiest way to gain,
00:32:43 --> 00:32:50 you know adherence and um to grow the fastest the easiest the shortcuts are
00:32:50 --> 00:32:55 to be like-minded but not in a price-minded like-mindedness but just in,
00:32:56 --> 00:32:57 a sense of ideological agreement,
00:32:58 --> 00:33:03 and so people are choosing the path of least resistance which turns out to be toxic paths.
00:33:07 --> 00:33:14 So how do we get out of this i mean how do we move out of that type of,
00:33:15 --> 00:33:21 of of polarization i mean that i think what i it's interesting you know i think
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 you talked about this earlier that the um,
00:33:25 --> 00:33:32 I think a lot of denominations at some point, if you went back in time 30, 40, 50 years ago,
00:33:34 --> 00:33:42 were quite broad in their ideology or even theology of belief and all that.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:45 And there was ways to kind of hold that together.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:51 Yes. And that's really not the case anymore.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:57 But it's funny how that is mirroring what we see in a larger society,
00:33:57 --> 00:34:05 because there used to be what we would call a mass culture and things that were made for a wide culture.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:11 And a lot of things now are much more narrow, more bespoke.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:20 Yes. that to try to do something that can hold people of various opinions.
00:34:21 --> 00:34:26 Is it that's pretty novel i mean you just don't see that anymore and so how
00:34:26 --> 00:34:30 do you kind of go against the grain of that yes i,
00:34:32 --> 00:34:37 i think you're i think you're so right about this i mean here an example from
00:34:37 --> 00:34:41 my own youth you know about the the way culture has changed and the way that
00:34:41 --> 00:34:45 it's more uh divided and curated and,
00:34:46 --> 00:34:48 and the singular in its,
00:34:50 --> 00:34:55 uh as we encounter it i mean i i was an elementary school kid when that the
00:34:55 --> 00:34:57 miniseries roots came out,
00:34:59 --> 00:35:04 and i mean i couldn't have lived in a whiter world the one that i was in it
00:35:04 --> 00:35:09 was a suburb suburb um almost everyone i knew was white,
00:35:10 --> 00:35:17 friends that I had from other ethnicities were Asian but not many it's just where I lived,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:23 we were all watching Roots as elementary school kids,
00:35:25 --> 00:35:29 And we were talking about it, and it was shaping us.
00:35:32 --> 00:35:36 Now, there's nothing that everybody's watching. There's nothing that,
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38 there's no conversation of which everybody is a part.
00:35:40 --> 00:35:45 There are just partisan conversations. And again, the rage and the 24-7 and
00:35:45 --> 00:35:52 the, all of that is driving us, you know, to think less rather than more.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:58 And to stay more comfortable rather than to experience any kind of discomfort.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:05 And it's all there to validate what we already thought and just strengthen us in that regard. So.
00:36:07 --> 00:36:12 Yeah, we're all still describing symptoms and problems. You were looking for an answer though.
00:36:14 --> 00:36:23 And I'll just start with this. I think the job number one is to return to a Christian discourse,
00:36:24 --> 00:36:30 realizing that a Christian discourse may step on everybody's toes.
00:36:32 --> 00:36:35 It may step on everybody's toes, but in ways that we didn't expect.
00:36:35 --> 00:36:41 Okay, so look, I'm biased here because I'm a New Testament professor. I'm a Bible professor.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:47 But if instead of going to the Bible, or not even going to it,
00:36:47 --> 00:36:51 but just receiving from the Bible the reinforcements for the things that we,
00:36:52 --> 00:36:54 already think, what if we went to it,
00:36:56 --> 00:37:02 with people of difference and said like how is what I'm encountering it let's
00:37:02 --> 00:37:07 just say in the gospels in the person of Jesus as narrated and depicted there
00:37:07 --> 00:37:10 how am I encountering sort of a,
00:37:11 --> 00:37:17 a counter to my basic working assumptions about the world right so,
00:37:18 --> 00:37:22 wealthy people will have to reckon with the fact that Jesus wasn't so high on,
00:37:23 --> 00:37:30 on you know wealth he thought it was a severe danger potential idol so on and so forth.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:35 People who have,
00:37:36 --> 00:37:41 want to blame poor people for being poor,
00:37:42 --> 00:37:47 are going to have to reckon with both proverbs that has a little bit of that
00:37:47 --> 00:37:52 going on, you know, like sloth may lead to poverty.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:55 And they're also going to have to reckon with the prophets, especially the minor
00:37:55 --> 00:38:02 prophets who say, you know, exploitation of the poor, the wealthy having their
00:38:02 --> 00:38:07 way and using their power to the disadvantage of the poor, that's not okay.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:14 God looks with judgment upon that, right? So what we've grown accustomed to
00:38:14 --> 00:38:19 is actually seeing just the side of this that we're used to, right?
00:38:20 --> 00:38:25 And so it's not a secret if you ask most Republicans, why are people poor?
00:38:27 --> 00:38:32 They have Bible answers. If you ask liberal Christians or progressive Christians,
00:38:32 --> 00:38:34 why are people poor? They have Bible answers.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:39 What's striking is that they never have the parts of the Bible that are counterindicative
00:38:39 --> 00:38:45 of their own view, right? And so reckoning with the whole, that's what I mean
00:38:45 --> 00:38:46 by a Christian discourse is.
00:38:48 --> 00:38:53 You know, not only scriptural, but starting with scripture and letting scripture,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55 bear a counter testimony,
00:38:55 --> 00:39:01 to those things that are most obvious to us and letting it speak and say things
00:39:01 --> 00:39:03 that are not obvious to us.
00:39:04 --> 00:39:07 I think you understand that, you know, just in general.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:15 That kind of an approach. So like one of the things that I see are progressive
00:39:15 --> 00:39:18 Christians saying, Hey, we're all about the Sermon on the Mount.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:21 And I'm seeing that.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:28 Uh progressive conservative christians finding their ways around what they think
00:39:28 --> 00:39:29 the sermon on the mount says,
00:39:30 --> 00:39:36 and countering it rather than like a serious engagement the reality is uh the
00:39:36 --> 00:39:41 sermon on the mount is going to kick the butt of the conservative and the liberal
00:39:41 --> 00:39:42 if you take all of it seriously.
00:39:45 --> 00:39:51 Well it's kind of like i always say about jesus is that i don't think jesus,
00:39:51 --> 00:39:56 if you really listen to him, would favor either side.
00:39:56 --> 00:40:04 I mean, he said enough, if you pay attention, that should bother either side.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 But we've kind of made Jesus into our own, fashioned him into our own being,
00:40:11 --> 00:40:16 a way of looking at things that we've kind of rendered Jesus powerless in some way.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:20 That's right. I call it Jesus as mascot.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:29 Uh-huh yep serves as a mascot for our side for our team for what we're about and so yeah uh.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:34 Detaching jesus from,
00:40:35 --> 00:40:44 um, as a mascot who always thinks the way we think and who only wants to reinforce
00:40:44 --> 00:40:46 our particular point of view,
00:40:47 --> 00:40:51 learning how to detach people from that is what I mean by a Christian discourse.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:58 Right. So we start there and now we have a space to be actually self-critical,
00:40:58 --> 00:41:02 critical of the politics of the people that we disagree with,
00:41:03 --> 00:41:06 critical of the politics that we're more that we have more affinity for.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:13 Like and and there has to be a there has to be a christian distance,
00:41:14 --> 00:41:17 if jesus is going to be lord instead of mascot there has to be a christian distance
00:41:17 --> 00:41:24 between you know how we understand what we understand him to be uh what we understand
00:41:24 --> 00:41:26 the christian tradition saying to us,
00:41:27 --> 00:41:33 um and the particular political ideologies that we get locked into too.
00:41:33 --> 00:41:36 And that without that critical distance, I don't see a lot of hope.
00:41:37 --> 00:41:42 So we need the critical distance at an actual genuine Christian discourse,
00:41:42 --> 00:41:48 but then we need to have it with people who don't always share our own point of view.
00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 And we need to stay at a table with each other, right?
00:41:52 --> 00:41:56 And that's the difficult thing, because what we've learned how to do,
00:41:56 --> 00:41:59 you know, especially as Protestants, we've learned how to say,
00:41:59 --> 00:42:02 yeah, I just have enough disagreement with these people, we're going to start
00:42:02 --> 00:42:07 something else yeah or just or drop out yeah.
00:42:09 --> 00:42:15 What do you think i mean you know this article centered around this person teresa,
00:42:16 --> 00:42:21 and just her difficulties in finding a place to call home,
00:42:22 --> 00:42:28 and what i found interesting about her is that she wasn't trying to find a place,
00:42:28 --> 00:42:34 where everyone agreed with her she just wanted to find a place where she could
00:42:34 --> 00:42:36 belong where she could fit in yes um.
00:42:38 --> 00:42:47 And what was interesting was all of the places basically wanted her to conform and yeah,
00:42:48 --> 00:42:51 that makes me wonder what is that doing to,
00:42:52 --> 00:42:58 our witness because there have to be other people like teresa out there who
00:42:58 --> 00:43:04 may not fit easily into a certain bucket, that they're not,
00:43:04 --> 00:43:11 you know, uber-progressive and want to be part of a progressive congregation or uber-conservative.
00:43:12 --> 00:43:18 But, you know, they may lean one way or the other, but they're just simply looking for a place.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:25 And it seems like that's hard, but there have to be—I mean, I'm thinking more
00:43:25 --> 00:43:29 often than not, these people do cross the doorways of churches?
00:43:30 --> 00:43:36 And how is this all affecting the witness of congregations if they are so polarized?
00:43:37 --> 00:43:40 Oh, I mean, yes, amen.
00:43:42 --> 00:43:51 It's hurting the witness of churches. It's also hurting our integrity as the people of God.
00:43:55 --> 00:44:04 Because I don't know what you see out there but what I see is especially generationally um.
00:44:06 --> 00:44:11 People like my children's age and younger, what they're observing of religion
00:44:11 --> 00:44:18 is it's just like a religious veneer to something the core is actually more political.
00:44:19 --> 00:44:25 So it's not that it's easy. It's easily dismissed is what I would say.
00:44:25 --> 00:44:32 It's like, well, I don't, I don't need, I don't need church to join the young Republicans. Right.
00:44:33 --> 00:44:41 I don't need the church to go and do like protesting or walk in an LGBT parade
00:44:41 --> 00:44:45 or something. I don't need the church for that. So what is it actually offering?
00:44:46 --> 00:44:52 And I'm not at all suggesting like a social quietism on the part of the church
00:44:52 --> 00:44:59 where we have nothing to say or we see ourselves as distant from matters social
00:44:59 --> 00:45:01 and political. I'm not suggesting that at all.
00:45:01 --> 00:45:08 What i'm what i am suggesting is it's probably clear by now is forming a airtight alliance,
00:45:09 --> 00:45:14 with um ungodly political ideologies and by the way i think they're all ungodly,
00:45:15 --> 00:45:21 right i think when it's all said and done because they want to own us and they
00:45:21 --> 00:45:24 demand our submission to the
00:45:24 --> 00:45:29 in our uniformity and that's a that's idolatry that's ungodly so the uh,
00:45:30 --> 00:45:36 until we become differentiated from that i don't i i think our witness and our
00:45:36 --> 00:45:43 integrity is is going to be harmed just as as you're suggesting it would you know it was interest.
00:45:44 --> 00:45:50 Interesting about thing about Teresa is some like convictions that normally
00:45:50 --> 00:45:56 travel together um she was on a different in a different place she was like,
00:45:57 --> 00:46:04 she's very important to her uh racial justice uh economic justice really mattered
00:46:04 --> 00:46:08 to her she was conservative or traditional on sexuality,
00:46:09 --> 00:46:14 Um, and, you know, I think if you asked her, she would say, well,
00:46:14 --> 00:46:18 that's where my study of scripture and my Christian discipleship have taken
00:46:18 --> 00:46:22 me, but I'm not looking for a church that, that matches that either.
00:46:23 --> 00:46:29 I just want a church that will say, it's okay that in your wrestling with God
00:46:29 --> 00:46:34 and in your following of Jesus, it's taking you to these places.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:37 And that makes you like the kind of Christian we want to have here,
00:46:37 --> 00:46:39 even where we're going to disagree with you.
00:46:41 --> 00:46:47 Yeah, I think, though, in some cases, we take these things like sexuality and
00:46:47 --> 00:46:52 we kind of make them the do or die issue.
00:46:54 --> 00:47:00 They are the thing that determines whether you are part of the body or not.
00:47:01 --> 00:47:09 And so if you don't see eye to eye on this issue, well, sorry, you can't be part of us.
00:47:09 --> 00:47:18 Right. Maybe the, you know, it's just kind of weird that that's where we're at.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:25 And again, I think it comes down to being afraid, but I think you said something
00:47:25 --> 00:47:30 earlier about who is Lord in our life. And.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:36 If we're kind of making those determinations, and, you know,
00:47:36 --> 00:47:41 I can also include in this case, we could talk about the Southern Baptists and
00:47:41 --> 00:47:42 the whole talk about women,
00:47:45 --> 00:47:50 as preachers, which kind of has already was talked about, but it's like we have
00:47:50 --> 00:47:53 to have yet another vote to make sure.
00:47:54 --> 00:48:00 Yeah. But that you can't have people even just that may not see that or may
00:48:00 --> 00:48:04 not agree or have issues. It's like basically saying,
00:48:06 --> 00:48:12 it makes it sound like you're putting someone else beyond Jesus as Lord.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:17 Yeah. And so it really does kind of come down to that.
00:48:18 --> 00:48:19 Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:25 That's what I would say. and.
00:48:27 --> 00:48:37 I think there are diagnostics. It's like, where do you see this perspective,
00:48:37 --> 00:48:38 that is important to you?
00:48:39 --> 00:48:43 Where do you get it from? Like how, if you were in a conversation,
00:48:43 --> 00:48:47 because I suppose we should always be with the risen Christ,
00:48:48 --> 00:48:56 about this issue, like based on what he's already said or what's been mediated to us in scripture, like.
00:48:58 --> 00:49:01 What is everything that he might want to say about that?
00:49:01 --> 00:49:07 Not just like the Bible verse, right? So we all have our favorite Bible verses or passages.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:13 You know, it's Matthew 25 for one set of Christians.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:19 I don't know. It's like, what, Romans 1 for another set of Christians.
00:49:20 --> 00:49:24 And it's like, well, the scripture just has more to say than all of that.
00:49:25 --> 00:49:32 And if Christ is Lord, then he's not trying to supply us with ammunition,
00:49:33 --> 00:49:40 for our politics he's interrogating us and also calling,
00:49:41 --> 00:49:45 and shedding light on our potential or actual idolatries,
00:49:46 --> 00:49:51 and that's what's getting in the way between our following of him uh as lord
00:49:51 --> 00:49:55 and the and the abundance of life that he has to offer that we're cheapy we're,
00:49:56 --> 00:50:02 we're pasting him on cutting and pasting him into something a discourse or,
00:50:03 --> 00:50:08 a uh a frame of reference it's not his um and i would think that that nothing
00:50:08 --> 00:50:10 could be really be more dishonorable,
00:50:12 --> 00:50:16 so yeah you're you know i again i think that um.
00:50:18 --> 00:50:23 I'm not pessimistic, but this is going to take a long time, and it's going to
00:50:23 --> 00:50:26 be a completely different path of discipleship, and we're going to have to do
00:50:26 --> 00:50:29 some building from the ground up.
00:50:30 --> 00:50:35 And then we'll have to be careful when we build from the ground up that we don't
00:50:35 --> 00:50:37 repeat the previous mistakes of discipleship.
00:50:41 --> 00:50:48 Of picking and choosing, you know, one perspective or thoughtlessly going to
00:50:48 --> 00:50:52 the middle or mindlessly embracing everything.
00:50:53 --> 00:51:03 Like, I don't think if I'm leading a church and somebody joins us who is,
00:51:04 --> 00:51:07 you know, a Klan member, that's not going to be okay.
00:51:09 --> 00:51:15 Um but because that person's created in the image of god and is where they are
00:51:15 --> 00:51:22 at some end or some way on some journey i still have to understand how did you get there,
00:51:24 --> 00:51:30 and how could jesus come into that life and even heal and transform and bring
00:51:30 --> 00:51:36 repentance to that person right that's possible too if we believe in any of this uh,
00:51:37 --> 00:51:40 so i don't want to say like everything's okay everything's not okay,
00:51:41 --> 00:51:42 and everything doesn't go um.
00:51:45 --> 00:51:51 But um there have been issues that christians have debated and discussed and
00:51:51 --> 00:51:59 wondered about for generations and centuries and have reached some wisdom but not agreement,
00:51:59 --> 00:52:03 and we have to be able to live within the realm of that wisdom them,
00:52:03 --> 00:52:05 even where there are disagreements.
00:52:06 --> 00:52:12 Have you seen any example of churches, communities that are trying to do that,
00:52:12 --> 00:52:15 that are trying to kind of be a bit different?
00:52:17 --> 00:52:22 I have, actually. I'm happy to say that I have. That's good to hear. Yeah.
00:52:26 --> 00:52:32 And in a lot of different quarters, actually, you know, in different segments,
00:52:32 --> 00:52:38 you know, more evangelical, more Catholic, more progressive, more conservative.
00:52:39 --> 00:52:44 So, you know, I think one place that all of us could, I'm not saying we need
00:52:44 --> 00:52:49 to subscribe, but we could all learn from Catholic social teaching.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:55 I say that as a Protestant. but one of the things that you'll see with Catholic
00:52:55 --> 00:53:00 social teaching, whether you agree with all of it or not, is that it's not actually, um,
00:53:02 --> 00:53:06 it's not beholden to one particular political ideology.
00:53:06 --> 00:53:10 So there's a little bit of a model there for at least thinking outside of those boxes.
00:53:11 --> 00:53:15 Again, whether you agree with all of it or not. Um, I.
00:53:17 --> 00:53:22 Did the best that I knew how in 19 years teaching at an Episcopal seminary with
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 really widely differing views on things among especially students to,
00:53:29 --> 00:53:36 shepherd and nurture a community of mutuality, of empathy, of listening,
00:53:36 --> 00:53:43 and living with and even interrogating our differences toward greater love.
00:53:43 --> 00:53:48 So at its best, and it wasn't always at its best, I'm sorry to say,
00:53:48 --> 00:53:53 at its best, we enjoyed seasons of that at the seminary that I was a part of.
00:53:54 --> 00:54:02 So I've seen it there. I know some evangelical churches that have been willing to speak on.
00:54:04 --> 00:54:07 Holding generally socially conservative views on all sorts of things,
00:54:08 --> 00:54:12 but have been willing to speak on other kinds of questions that where they're not towing the line,
00:54:13 --> 00:54:19 uh with what currently counts as conservative and they have lost people but
00:54:19 --> 00:54:25 they've gained like a thoughtfulness and an integrity and,
00:54:26 --> 00:54:31 uh in that process so yeah i actually do see this as something that happens,
00:54:32 --> 00:54:34 I just don't think it's the shortest path.
00:54:35 --> 00:54:40 If the goal here is self-reinforcement and or church growth or something like
00:54:40 --> 00:54:41 that, it's not the shortest path.
00:54:42 --> 00:54:46 So, again, it's the path of most resistance. But people do it.
00:54:46 --> 00:54:49 It can be done. It is what we're called to.
00:54:50 --> 00:54:55 So I don't know if I'm so much an optimist or an idealist or what,
00:54:55 --> 00:55:02 But I'm just not myself willing to settle for these bifurcations and partisanship.
00:55:04 --> 00:55:08 Yeah, so I've seen it. Yes, I do think it happens.
00:55:09 --> 00:55:15 Where do you think that the church will be in another 10 or 15 years?
00:55:15 --> 00:55:20 I mean, do you think that we're going to kind of continue down this path,
00:55:20 --> 00:55:25 or is it really dependent on what happens in the wider culture?
00:55:29 --> 00:55:31 That's such an interesting question.
00:55:33 --> 00:55:36 Because if you had asked me, and like, what do I know? I mean,
00:55:37 --> 00:55:41 not a prophet and not even close to a futurist.
00:55:41 --> 00:55:45 But if you had asked me like 15 years ago,
00:55:48 --> 00:55:52 again, whatever anybody makes up, all of the particulars of policy and positions,
00:55:53 --> 00:55:59 i would have thought that the obama presidency was a sign of america unifying,
00:56:00 --> 00:56:06 he whatever again you think of the policies he he was a model of that kind of
00:56:06 --> 00:56:09 discourse of bringing people together um,
00:56:10 --> 00:56:16 and you know i have friends who are conservative who think you know he was a disaster,
00:56:17 --> 00:56:21 but i just have a hard time i i would have thought we were headed in a certain
00:56:21 --> 00:56:24 direction It's clear to me that.
00:56:26 --> 00:56:36 The mega, it's not a resurgence, the sort of evolution from the Tea Party to the mega phenomenon,
00:56:36 --> 00:56:42 is at least in part a reactivity to having a black president.
00:56:44 --> 00:56:50 And that race is not everything that's going on here, but it's a major factor.
00:56:51 --> 00:56:56 So i i say that to say i would have thought we were headed in one direction
00:56:56 --> 00:56:59 and we've headed in a different direction,
00:57:00 --> 00:57:06 which is all to say like what don't put any weight on my prognostications but
00:57:06 --> 00:57:09 i will say here are a few things that i think are going to happen,
00:57:10 --> 00:57:19 i think that the overly politicized mainline church, which tends progressive,
00:57:20 --> 00:57:24 I think that its membership decline is going to continue.
00:57:25 --> 00:57:31 And I say that not because that's what I hope for, because I belong to one of those denominations.
00:57:32 --> 00:57:37 But I think that its decline in membership is going to happen because.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:45 That approach to church, which with its strong political alliance,
00:57:46 --> 00:57:52 makes the Christian part of the church more or less unnecessary.
00:57:53 --> 00:57:55 Yeah, I would totally agree with that.
00:57:56 --> 00:57:59 Yeah so if i can have all of my uh,
00:58:01 --> 00:58:07 political convictions and progressive causes and so forth i don't if i i don't
00:58:07 --> 00:58:13 i don't really see that i need a church to hold those positions i i certainly
00:58:13 --> 00:58:15 don't need a church that doesn't challenge any of it,
00:58:16 --> 00:58:23 so i think you know all of the demographics the aging and the decline already in place and so forth it,
00:58:24 --> 00:58:27 and so forth i i think that there'll be a decline there then i think that decline
00:58:27 --> 00:58:32 will continue so the question will be what will what will re-emerge out of the
00:58:32 --> 00:58:34 decline is an interesting question.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:41 I think um similarly however that um,
00:58:42 --> 00:58:53 the mega allied evangelical churches um are going to lose the next are losing the next generations,
00:58:54 --> 00:59:03 um who who perceive that kind of christianity to be just a political utilitarianism that,
00:59:04 --> 00:59:11 it is there's nothing meaningful to them in that that is unless they're already
00:59:11 --> 00:59:15 sort of politically so allied and then maybe they'll they'll see some future there.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:22 So I think both kind of, uh, ends of this spectrum, we're going to see decline.
00:59:23 --> 00:59:30 And the question is, if like any kind of new life or emergence of something,
00:59:33 --> 00:59:38 more properly Jesus-ish will emerge from any of that.
00:59:42 --> 00:59:45 And, you know, that's what we should pray for and work toward.
00:59:46 --> 00:59:52 But I think as we look back and say 25 30 years from now at this phase I think
00:59:52 --> 00:59:56 we'll all have a lot more clarity about what happened and,
00:59:57 --> 01:00:02 some things that are not obvious to a lot of people today they'll be more obvious 30 years from now.
01:00:04 --> 01:00:07 The question is what the state of the church you know uh,
01:00:08 --> 01:00:13 what the state of the church will be at that point but i think unless unless,
01:00:13 --> 01:00:16 um christianity has something to offer that's,
01:00:17 --> 01:00:23 distinct from though related to but fully distinct from uh political partisanship
01:00:23 --> 01:00:25 i'm not sure that it has much of a future,
01:00:27 --> 01:00:31 yeah and i think you see that really on both sides because on both sides it,
01:00:32 --> 01:00:36 i mean it's been for a long time pronounced on the progressive side,
01:00:37 --> 01:00:43 in that people think that if we adopt all of these liberal policies,
01:00:43 --> 01:00:44 then people will come to church.
01:00:44 --> 01:00:48 But what they realize is after a while, it's like, well, I don't really need
01:00:48 --> 01:00:53 the church then, because they can do all this stuff without it.
01:00:53 --> 01:00:58 But I think that that's happening on the more conservative or MAGA side now
01:00:58 --> 01:01:04 as well, because Because people are going to realize you don't really need the church.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:09 In fact, a lot of people already, there are people who call themselves evangelical,
01:01:09 --> 01:01:11 but they don't go to church.
01:01:11 --> 01:01:19 It's become a cultural appendage or modifier, but not anything more than that. And so I think...
01:01:21 --> 01:01:24 On the more conservative side they may think right now that,
01:01:26 --> 01:01:29 they're doing well but i think it's it's,
01:01:30 --> 01:01:36 it's a faussian faussian bargain that i think is going to come in and bite them
01:01:36 --> 01:01:41 in a few years yeah i i think i think that's absolutely right i mean i think
01:01:41 --> 01:01:43 one of the most interesting questions that all of us should,
01:01:44 --> 01:01:46 be asking is.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:54 If first of all you can't make generalizations as you know and you haven't but
01:01:54 --> 01:01:59 we can't make generalizations about say generations because obviously there'll
01:01:59 --> 01:02:02 always be a lot of exceptions and it moves really quickly,
01:02:03 --> 01:02:09 like millennials to generation z to generation alpha these like political instincts
01:02:09 --> 01:02:11 are they're they're fast moving um,
01:02:12 --> 01:02:16 and just as you think you understand millennials gen z throws you a curveball
01:02:16 --> 01:02:20 and gen alpha is going to throw another one that said one of the interesting
01:02:20 --> 01:02:24 questions is to the extent that we're watching um.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:33 We're watching it uh a disaffection toward christianity on the part of uh,
01:02:34 --> 01:02:42 especially young evangelicals um we are not watching any kind of considerable
01:02:42 --> 01:02:48 movement to the mainline alternatives with which they're supposed to have more political sympathy.
01:02:49 --> 01:02:52 That doesn't seem to be happening in any large measure.
01:02:53 --> 01:02:58 Nope. But by rights, it seems like if that's your reason for withdrawing from
01:02:58 --> 01:03:03 your evangelical past, then surely you would find the right thing over here,
01:03:03 --> 01:03:05 but I don't think people work like that.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:08 No. So, yeah.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 Yeah, now, well,
01:03:14 --> 01:03:18 Yeah, enough on that. But I think that's a phenomenon that is interesting to
01:03:18 --> 01:03:20 think about and wonder about.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:26 And that's sort of what Teresa was exemplifying. It's like, well,
01:03:27 --> 01:03:33 probably on balance, I have more in common with the Episcopalians that I visited,
01:03:33 --> 01:03:34 although not everything.
01:03:35 --> 01:03:40 But I also didn't see why that could be my home either.
01:03:46 --> 01:03:49 And it's a loss, I think. It's a huge loss.
01:03:49 --> 01:03:57 I mean, yes, yes. And I got feedback on the piece from, because I have all these,
01:03:58 --> 01:04:02 Episcopal Church clergy friends who are like, oh, she would totally love our church.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:06 And I'm like, well, that's great, but you're 600 miles away.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:16 So it just turns out that in her neighborhood, so to speak within like a 40 mile drive,
01:04:18 --> 01:04:25 it's not like that so I would say out of sheer pragmatism,
01:04:27 --> 01:04:32 one thing that would be wise for the church to do is without forfeiting our
01:04:32 --> 01:04:34 convictions and our social witness,
01:04:36 --> 01:04:42 is to extend a welcome that isn't just to the people who never come here,
01:04:43 --> 01:04:46 but to the kind of people who might come here. Hmm.
01:04:49 --> 01:04:52 I think that's an interesting way of looking at it, because I think for so long,
01:04:54 --> 01:05:01 it's always how do we get X group, at least in Mainline, the people who never come here,
01:05:01 --> 01:05:06 but not thinking about the people who might come here, who may not be the perfect
01:05:06 --> 01:05:12 ones or who we're looking for, but who are the people who might want to be part of the church.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:20 Right, because I think, you know, if you do Venn diagrams and you say, well.
01:05:22 --> 01:05:31 Our church is well positioned for people with religious inclinations and a really
01:05:31 --> 01:05:36 strong progressive political convictions.
01:05:39 --> 01:05:43 And I don't mean any offense because I'm talking about our church, my church, too.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:49 But that then those Venn diagrams, they don't overlap all that much. Nope.
01:05:51 --> 01:05:56 Um, because, you know, I mean, I think we both said it now, there's ways to
01:05:56 --> 01:06:01 be what you are politically that don't, uh, for which religion is not any necessity.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:06 Um, and again, that will work on the other side. It's just that,
01:06:07 --> 01:06:11 you know, for a variety of reasons, um, interesting reasons,
01:06:11 --> 01:06:15 the, the Venn diagram overlap between traditionalist or,
01:06:16 --> 01:06:22 conservative, uh, inclinations and religion, it's a much stronger overlap.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:30 But that's as much of a problem as the opposite, because the overlap tempts
01:06:30 --> 01:06:31 people into thinking that you
01:06:31 --> 01:06:35 can identify these two things as being the same thing, and they're not.
01:06:39 --> 01:06:46 That my conservative or traditionalist inclinations are the same thing as my following of Jesus.
01:06:48 --> 01:06:55 And that's a delusion yeah well and I think that that's also such a danger is
01:06:55 --> 01:06:58 that we make discipleship,
01:07:00 --> 01:07:06 Basically, political indoctrination and discipleship the same when they're not.
01:07:06 --> 01:07:08 They're two different things.
01:07:08 --> 01:07:16 Yes. You know, I always feel that, for me especially, politics and faith are
01:07:16 --> 01:07:17 always going to be in tension.
01:07:18 --> 01:07:21 I mean, we always believe certain things, especially in politics,
01:07:21 --> 01:07:25 whether it's more government intervention or less government intervention or,
01:07:26 --> 01:07:30 you know, whether we believe in universal health care or not or something to that extent.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:35 But it always feels like those things, at least for me, should always be in
01:07:35 --> 01:07:38 tension with our faith. Doesn't mean that, you know.
01:07:40 --> 01:07:45 I don't think that there is a Christian answer to something,
01:07:45 --> 01:07:51 but I do think that there are guidelines and that those things are always going
01:07:51 --> 01:07:52 to have to be held in tension.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:57 Because they're not in tension then i think something's gone,
01:07:58 --> 01:08:04 gone off because then the faith is not either it's so enmeshed into the politics
01:08:04 --> 01:08:10 that you can't tell the difference and then there's no need for it or something else yes,
01:08:11 --> 01:08:17 i i think that is so well said i i i could not i could not agree more it but,
01:08:19 --> 01:08:22 You say that in front of a lot of Christians, and they're going to think you're wrong,
01:08:24 --> 01:08:29 because the two have become so identified. I mean, some, you know,
01:08:29 --> 01:08:34 frequently said things are that, you know, politics are, all politics involves
01:08:34 --> 01:08:36 a certain kind of compromise toward a common good,
01:08:37 --> 01:08:43 which means it's never going to be actually fully allied with anybody's religious convictions.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:48 It's just, it's always going to involve a certain kind of compromise that looks
01:08:48 --> 01:08:56 at the common body politic over against my particular religious commitments.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:02 It's always going to be the art of the possible rather than the ideal.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:10 It's also always going to be invoke the law of unintended consequences.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:17 So even the best policies are going to produce things that aren't the best because that's just life.
01:09:18 --> 01:09:22 So to to make any kind of policy uh,
01:09:24 --> 01:09:30 commitments fully christian is not acknowledging any of its compromise possible
01:09:31 --> 01:09:36 and unintended consequences so of course that's not going to uh,
01:09:37 --> 01:09:42 that's never going to lie fully with a with a the christian vision so i think
01:09:42 --> 01:09:46 you know what we all want what we should all want, and I don't see anybody much
01:09:46 --> 01:09:50 doing this as saying, well, as Christians, what are the things that we think,
01:09:51 --> 01:09:57 what can we agree on that would be like pleasing to Jesus in our wider culture?
01:09:57 --> 01:09:59 What would that look like?
01:09:59 --> 01:10:04 And then, you know, what are the most productive, efficient,
01:10:04 --> 01:10:07 least damaging policy ends toward that?
01:10:08 --> 01:10:13 Whether it's solving hunger, healthcare or education or, you know,
01:10:13 --> 01:10:14 you name it, right? Mm-hmm.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:22 Yeah, we don't have that. I think we did at one point. But we don't have. We totally did.
01:10:23 --> 01:10:25 We did, right?
01:10:26 --> 01:10:33 We had this socially conscious conservative and the reticent Democrat.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:39 You know, Lyndon Johnson was, you know, by no means a saint,
01:10:39 --> 01:10:43 but went out on the limb for civil rights.
01:10:43 --> 01:10:47 You know, we had Daniel Moynihan, you know,
01:10:48 --> 01:10:57 who policy-wise is a little more like a Republican, but with ends and goals
01:10:57 --> 01:11:01 that were what would become more characteristic of the Democrats.
01:11:01 --> 01:11:06 I'm not saying all these people were perfect. I'm just saying we had that kind of crossover for sure.
01:11:07 --> 01:11:11 And now I don't know where you would go to get that. Maybe some of the best
01:11:11 --> 01:11:19 examples are probably people that used to be conservatives and now,
01:11:20 --> 01:11:25 so mortified by what conservative has come to mean, they're at least engaged
01:11:25 --> 01:11:28 in a thoughtful reconsideration.
01:11:31 --> 01:11:36 So if there are places people want to learn more about you or to maybe talk
01:11:36 --> 01:11:38 to you more about this, where should they go?
01:11:40 --> 01:11:49 Oh, well, I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd be happy to continue to engage people accordingly.
01:11:50 --> 01:11:53 So one of the things that I didn't say in terms of my background is,
01:11:54 --> 01:11:59 so I was in theological education as a professor for 24 years.
01:12:01 --> 01:12:08 And Tuesday was my last day on the faculty of the seminary that I taught at. Oh, congratulations.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:14 Yeah, thanks. And yesterday was my first day at a new endeavor,
01:12:15 --> 01:12:19 which is called the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation in Madison, Wisconsin.
01:12:20 --> 01:12:25 And we have a lot of diverse kind of ministries that we're doing there.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:29 But the initiative that I'm involved in is called the Lumen Center.
01:12:30 --> 01:12:35 And the Lumen Center is seeking the integration of the Christian faith with
01:12:35 --> 01:12:37 things like public policy,
01:12:39 --> 01:12:46 social issues, with the academic world and academic disciplines.
01:12:46 --> 01:12:54 How does Christian truth bear and dialogue with other academic disciplines and so forth? So.
01:12:56 --> 01:13:00 We're trying to do that and so my new role there is as a fellow of the lumen
01:13:00 --> 01:13:05 center where we are very specifically trying to deal with these questions,
01:13:06 --> 01:13:12 um so i write occasionally um you know several times a year for that uh,
01:13:12 --> 01:13:19 for the blog um the the covenant uh we call it an online journal um if anybody
01:13:19 --> 01:13:23 wanted to search on that and they find dozens of pieces including some things
01:13:23 --> 01:13:24 that we talked about today,
01:13:25 --> 01:13:31 and one of my current interests is talking about how the realities of first
01:13:31 --> 01:13:36 century Christians some of it just being you know,
01:13:37 --> 01:13:42 uh, necessity of being the mother of invention, but the realities of first century
01:13:42 --> 01:13:47 Christians in their political world, how there may still be lessons,
01:13:47 --> 01:13:51 uh, that we should be drawing as 21st century Christians.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:55 So I'm very interested in that, in a set of questions like that.
01:13:56 --> 01:14:01 All right. Well, I will definitely put that, um, in the show notes,
01:14:01 --> 01:14:06 um, for people to know about that so yeah appreciate that well garwood thank
01:14:06 --> 01:14:10 you so much for for for this discussion today i think it was helpful,
01:14:11 --> 01:14:14 i want to say i think it's hopeful um you know i think.
01:14:16 --> 01:14:21 I want to say the next few 10 or 15 years it's it's just going to be rough i've
01:14:21 --> 01:14:26 just kind of concluded it will be um so i'm not optimistic but i am always hopeful,
01:14:27 --> 01:14:33 um and so i'm hopeful for what can emerge um yes and it's down the road.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:41 And I think that, you know, I'm not entirely sure what your age is and maybe not yours,
01:14:42 --> 01:14:49 you mine, but I think people like us really need to be investing in the next
01:14:49 --> 01:14:54 generation, giving them an alternative to what seems to be on offer out there.
01:14:55 --> 01:15:00 And that's one of the reasons why I've made this move over to the Brennan Foundation
01:15:00 --> 01:15:06 and the Lumen Center is because we're strongly in dialogue and connection right
01:15:06 --> 01:15:08 in the middle of the University of Wisconsin campus.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:13 So we're talking to undergrads and graduate students about these things.
01:15:14 --> 01:15:16 And I think investing in that generation so that.
01:15:18 --> 01:15:25 They want something better than what's currently on offer. And when they see it, they respond. Yeah.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:30 Hmm. Yeah. I, it's hard to believe it.
01:15:30 --> 01:15:36 I would consider myself generation X. So it's, um, you know,
01:15:36 --> 01:15:42 feel like an old guy now, but, um, I'm a young boomer. Okay. I'm a boomer.
01:15:43 --> 01:15:47 Okay. But so, but, but I think that that is important to kind of,
01:15:47 --> 01:15:51 how do we help that younger generation? Um, right. Cause.
01:15:53 --> 01:15:58 It's interesting. and I just talk a lot more with Gen Z folk and it's a lot
01:15:58 --> 01:16:00 of challenges that they're dealing with. It is.
01:16:01 --> 01:16:09 And truly to be a Christian at their time and place is I think considerably
01:16:09 --> 01:16:12 more challenging than it was for us at that time and place.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:20 So yeah, we just have a lot to, yeah, that's a good use of our lives,
01:16:20 --> 01:16:23 right? Is investing in what comes next. Yep.
01:16:24 --> 01:16:29 Well, Garwood, thank you so much. Thank you for everything you're doing. I appreciate it.
01:16:29 --> 01:16:32 You're welcome. And I hope that we can have you back on sometime soon.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:35 I'd enjoy that. All right. Okay.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:08 So, as I always like to say, I'm always interested in knowing your thoughts on the episode.
01:17:09 --> 01:17:13 You can always send an email to churchinmain at subsect.com.
01:17:13 --> 01:17:19 I have links to Garwood's article. I hope that you will give it a read.
01:17:20 --> 01:17:25 Also, if you want to, as usual, learn more about this podcast,
01:17:25 --> 01:17:29 listen to past episodes, or donate, check me out at churchinmain.org.
01:17:30 --> 01:17:34 You can also go to churchinmain.substack.com to read related articles.
01:17:36 --> 01:17:41 I do post these episodes about a week after they appear in churchinmain.org,
01:17:42 --> 01:17:43 so you can also find them there.
01:17:45 --> 01:17:50 My latest article, just so you know, and I will put that also in the show notes,
01:17:51 --> 01:17:54 is Loved Before We Are Labeled.
01:17:54 --> 01:18:02 Um and so that will be in the show notes um it's kind of a takeoff on the if
01:18:02 --> 01:18:04 you are familiar with the.
01:18:06 --> 01:18:13 Um kind of controversy uh regarding an op-ed written by uh matthew vines who
01:18:13 --> 01:18:20 is uh a young gay man and he was kind of talking about the differences between uh,
01:18:21 --> 01:18:29 gay and queer, and there was a lot of controversy about it, and so I shared my opinions on it.
01:18:31 --> 01:18:38 So that is there if you'd like to read that. Also to let you know if you want,
01:18:38 --> 01:18:42 we do have, Church in Maine does have a YouTube channel.
01:18:43 --> 01:18:49 If you go to youtube.com youtube.com backslash churchinmainpodcast.
01:18:50 --> 01:18:56 You will find usually audio versions of these episodes there.
01:18:57 --> 01:19:03 I am starting to put up some what I'm calling previews. So it's not a full video
01:19:03 --> 01:19:10 episode, but it is videos of parts of the interviews.
01:19:11 --> 01:19:16 Again, you can find that at youtube.com. backslash churchinmainpodcast.
01:19:17 --> 01:19:23 I will put a link to one or two videos in the show notes if you'd like to check
01:19:23 --> 01:19:26 them out and know a little bit more.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:34 Also, if you want to donate on Substack, you can do that. You can become a paid subscriber.
01:19:34 --> 01:19:38 That's $5 a month, $60 a year.
01:19:40 --> 01:19:43 And I hope that you will consider subscribing to the podcast if you haven't
01:19:43 --> 01:19:45 done that yet on your favorite podcast app.
01:19:45 --> 01:19:49 And feel free to leave a review because when you do that, that actually helps
01:19:49 --> 01:19:51 others find the podcast.
01:19:52 --> 01:19:59 Also, one more note is to know that there won't be any new episodes during August.
01:20:00 --> 01:20:07 I'm taking that off for a break and then we will resume with new episodes in September.
01:20:08 --> 01:20:13 That is it for this episode of Church in Maine. Again, thank you so much for,
01:20:14 --> 01:20:16 listening. That does mean a lot.
01:20:17 --> 01:20:21 Take care, everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.