There's a lot of despair in the world right now, and it seems especially pronounced among Generation Z. Writer, speaker, and podcaster Jake Doberins joins the show to talk about his recent essay "Having Hope in a Hopeless World," exploring why hope feels so scarce for his generation and what makes Christian hope different from mere optimism.
Jake shares his own journey from a fundamentalist, know-it-all faith to something fuller and more honest, and unpacks why institutions, including the church, have lost people's trust. He and Dennis talk about loneliness, the risk built into hope, and why modeling a hopeful life matters more than teaching it. As Jake puts it, hope is "this stubborn belief that says, yeah, things are bad... but they're not always going to be bad."
Shownotes:
Having Hope in a Hopeless World
Christianity without Compromise Podcast
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00:00:26 --> 00:00:30 Hello, and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:30 --> 00:00:34 intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:39 And if you're listening to this on the 4th, happy 4th of July.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:44 There is something interesting that I noticed about the times that we're living
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 in. There's a whole lot of despair in the world.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:53 People seem to have this idea that things just won't ever get any better.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:58 On top of that, we seem to be fearful of anyone who is different from us,
00:00:58 --> 00:01:01 whether it's how we look or how we think.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:08 Hope seems in short supply. Now, I'm not talking about optimism. I'm talking about hope.
00:01:09 --> 00:01:14 Optimism is the sense that things will turn out. There's going to be a happy ending.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:20 Hope doesn't guarantee that things are going to be better, at least in the short
00:01:20 --> 00:01:27 term. But there's a belief that the bad things in life won't last forever.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:34 It's not good, and I want to make this clear, it's not good to be low on optimism.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:43 It's not a bad thing to want to have a happy ending. You shouldn't base life
00:01:43 --> 00:01:47 on that, but yeah, you kind of want to have a happy ending sometimes.
00:01:47 --> 00:01:51 But I think it's even worse to not have any hope. Because what that means is
00:01:51 --> 00:01:57 that you think that the things that oppress, the things that are bad,
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 are always going to stay in power, that they're always there,
00:02:00 --> 00:02:04 that good will never have a chance to prevail.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:09 And I see this throughout our culture. You see it on the internet,
00:02:09 --> 00:02:12 especially, especially on social media.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:21 And I see it throughout our culture, but it seems to be found most intensely among Generation Z.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 Today, I'm actually talking from someone from that generation.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:28 It seems like I'm, this is actually
00:02:28 --> 00:02:33 going to be a run of a few people from Generation Z that I'm talking to.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:38 But this person is talking about the loss of hope, especially among that generation
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 and what it means for Christians.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:46 I have been following Jake Dobrens for quite some time.
00:02:48 --> 00:02:54 He has a substack called Smashing Idols that I've followed.
00:02:54 --> 00:03:00 And he had something interesting. He wrote something just recently about hope.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:06 And this is what he says to say, kind of describing his own generation when it comes to hope.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:10 He says, quote, especially in my own generation.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 And this is talking about hope, but it's across the board.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:21 A true pandemic with disastrous results. Despite all the promises of innovation
00:03:21 --> 00:03:25 that are supposed to make us happy, a lot of us are unhappy.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:31 We are fed lies, shown things we don't have but want, and are increasingly isolated.
00:03:31 --> 00:03:37 And our access to the world means that we are ever more painfully aware that so much is bad.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:40 Hopelessness. Unquote.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:45 So, Jake Dobrens is my guest today.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:50 He's a writer, a speaker, and an entrepreneur that is passionate about helping
00:03:50 --> 00:03:55 Christians kind of develop a wholehearted devotion to following Jesus.
00:03:56 --> 00:04:00 A little bit about him, he has a master's in theological studies,
00:04:00 --> 00:04:04 as well as a bachelor's in biblical studies from Oklahoma Christian University.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:11 He does, in his writings, I think on his podcast, try to blend wisdom,
00:04:11 --> 00:04:15 biblical wisdom and humor to kind of connect with audiences.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:21 He's also the host of a podcast called Christianity Without Compromise.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:25 As I said, he writes at a sub stack called Smashing Idols.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:33 So the kind of main part of our talk today is going to be reflecting on his
00:04:33 --> 00:04:38 recent article on his sub stack called Having Hope in a hopeless world.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:44 And I hope that this is a helpful conversation for you, not simply just to understand
00:04:44 --> 00:04:48 Generation Z, that that's important, but also about,
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 what it means to be hopeful, especially in the times that we live in,
00:04:52 --> 00:04:56 which I think we all feel are quite hectic.
00:04:56 --> 00:05:01 So here is my conversation on hope with Jake Dobrens.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:26 All right, Jake, thanks for joining me today. I wanted to, I always like to
00:05:26 --> 00:05:31 start by getting to know a little bit about you. So kind of to tell me about
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 yourself and also your spiritual background.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 Oh, you start with the heavy hitter questions. I like it.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:48 Yeah, so let's see, about myself. I was raised in Oregon, first 18 years of
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 my life in the state of Oregon outside of the Portland area.
00:05:51 --> 00:05:58 A pretty kind of progressive liberal area, and my family was not that.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:05 We were very much on the conservative side of things, counter to what was going on around the culture.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 In kind of a minority-ish fundamentalist Christian community.
00:06:10 --> 00:06:18 Um it wasn't all bad uh but i was a know-it-all and i knew everything when i
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 was like you know 14 i just knew the whole bible it was great i knew all the
00:06:21 --> 00:06:23 answers everything and um,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:28 you know the dangers of the world where people believing what the scientists
00:06:28 --> 00:06:36 were saying and that was not not good in my book aka the bible how i read the
00:06:36 --> 00:06:39 bible and i told everybody about i was raised in public school.
00:06:39 --> 00:06:44 Um, but I had a beef with a lot of the ideas and things being present there.
00:06:45 --> 00:06:49 Like I said, I was kind of raised very, uh, to be kind of against the culture
00:06:49 --> 00:06:51 in many ways, shapes and form.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:55 And so I told everybody, uh, constantly and spoke out and got in trouble for
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 talking, not because of my ideas, but because I was talking when I wasn't supposed
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 to be talking and all of that. So that was me growing up.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:09 Um, and then I went to college in Oklahoma, a very conservative area,
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 a very different place than where I grew up.
00:07:13 --> 00:07:18 Uh, and I had some very gracious Bible professors. I was a Bible major.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:23 Uh, I decided, you know, I couldn't be the, the Christian lawyer,
00:07:23 --> 00:07:26 the Christian biologist. There's too many jobs I wanted to do.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:30 So I settled on Bible. Um, and I already knew the whole Bible.
00:07:30 --> 00:07:31 I already knew all the answers, right?
00:07:31 --> 00:07:34 That's what I pretty much believed. So it was going to be easy.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:39 Piece of cake degree. Uh, then these professors very gently corrected me and
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 told me, actually, you don't know some stuff.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 And here's the crazy thing. we don't even know all the stuff.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:47 We got PhDs in the subject. We don't even know everything.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 And I mean, it was kind of kicking and screaming at first, but I began to realize
00:07:52 --> 00:07:56 that the very narrow way in which I grew up wasn't right.
00:07:56 --> 00:08:00 Um, and it was not healthy by any stretch of the imagination.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:05 It wasn't like Jesus. So, you know, I don't have a testimony where it's like,
00:08:05 --> 00:08:11 I was in the middle of drugs or whatever, you know, I didn't have like a crazy childhood.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:16 There wasn't any big traumas or anything, but I do have a story of being transformed
00:08:16 --> 00:08:22 from a know-it-all-ness to a faith that's more fuller, you know?
00:08:23 --> 00:08:27 I sometimes have said before I was like God's PR manager, like that's how I
00:08:27 --> 00:08:31 felt like, but now I feel like, oh, well, actually I have a relationship with God.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:36 There's a deeper loyalty and allegiance that isn't just I have to manage God's,
00:08:37 --> 00:08:41 you know, public relations or something, make everybody like him or something like that.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:48 So here I am, you know, in Oklahoma with my mind expanded, and I'm still in
00:08:48 --> 00:08:52 Oklahoma today and still trying to figure out things.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:58 I know some stuff, but I know what I really know today is that I don't know
00:08:58 --> 00:09:03 it all. So how's that for answering all your questions? That sum it up nicely.
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 I think it's some stuff very nicely.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 You kind of had your own interesting Damascus Road experience there.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:16 I mean, it's obviously different. Paul was kind of killing people.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 I didn't kill anybody, so that's, yeah.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:21 But there is something to be
00:09:21 --> 00:09:28 said about that kind of actually having an encounter with God in that way.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:33 Yeah, I was zealous in the wrong way, like he was, for sure.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:39 So one of the reasons I wanted you, there were lots of reasons I wanted you
00:09:39 --> 00:09:45 on the podcast, But this essay that you wrote about having hope,
00:09:46 --> 00:09:48 I thought, rang true to me.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:51 And the reason it rings true is
00:09:51 --> 00:09:56 because it seems like in the culture these days, if you look everywhere.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:04 There doesn't seem to be a lot of that. And it's funny,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 in our culture, and sometimes I wonder,
00:10:10 --> 00:10:14 I think Americans have always been viewed as a hopeful people,
00:10:14 --> 00:10:21 and maybe that's not the word that we needed to describe it.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 I think we've maybe been more optimistic.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:31 But there is a sense of almost despair in our culture that I see everywhere.
00:10:31 --> 00:10:38 And what was interesting about your essay is that you were sensing that too,
00:10:40 --> 00:10:42 and you were kind of writing this to,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:49 kind of I won't say therapy but but in some ways to kind of write out what you
00:10:49 --> 00:10:54 were trying to to believe um even though,
00:10:54 --> 00:11:01 you weren't feeling it um so I kind of wanted to get at what led you to write this.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:06 Well, let's just start there. What led you to write what you were feeling?
00:11:06 --> 00:11:10 What was the situation that made you feel despairing?
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 Yeah. Well, I've been writing a kind of pseudo series.
00:11:18 --> 00:11:23 I mean, it is a series I've been writing through the traditional virtues.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:30 You have temperance and prudence and justice and fortitude and faith, hope and love.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:35 So I got to hope. So first of all, I needed to cover hope. I need to talk about hope.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:41 But yeah, 1000% in our culture, there just isn't a lot of that.
00:11:41 --> 00:11:49 And I consider myself like a hopeful person. I'm on Team Hope, but mostly positive.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 But then there are just these areas in my life where hope hasn't reached.
00:11:54 --> 00:12:00 And I can sympathize, empathize with a lot of my generation.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 I'm legally Gen Z. I'm legally a young'un.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:10 And my people, my age and younger, are just not hopeful.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 You see studies like, we're not having kids because I don't know what I'm going
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 to raise my kids. I don't know what kind of world it's going to be in.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:20 I talked to high schoolers today, which I don't even know if they're technically
00:12:20 --> 00:12:22 Gen Z, whatever generation they're in.
00:12:22 --> 00:12:25 I talked to them and I hear them say, oh yeah, I don't have any,
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 I don't have a hope of ever buying a house.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:34 I don't expect getting a good job. I don't expect I'll be accepted into college.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 And all these things that are supposed to be kind of like metrics of the American
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 dream, they don't have that dream.
00:12:39 --> 00:12:43 They have no hope that any of that's going to happen.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:49 And so it's rampant. It's out there. And I want to be a person of hope.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:52 I think that is something that Christians are supposed to be.
00:12:53 --> 00:12:58 And so I write to instill some hope in a hopeless world and instill some hope
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 in the few areas of my life where that hope hasn't really caught on,
00:13:03 --> 00:13:04 hasn't really captured me.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:14 It's interesting. I just interviewed Griffin Goosh, who is also Gen Z,
00:13:14 --> 00:13:18 and we're talking about having children.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:25 And so it's interesting you just brought that up and why a lot of people in
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 your generation kind of feel like, well, that's never happening.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:37 And that does seem like this rather persistent feeling in the culture.
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 Why do you think that that sense of,
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 despair is so prevalent? I mean, what do you think is happening in the culture,
00:13:49 --> 00:13:50 that is making people feel that?
00:13:53 --> 00:14:03 Yeah i mean i i want to i want to blame a little bit of it on just kind of media in general,
00:14:03 --> 00:14:07 not just news but also not just social media there is a,
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 way in which what is publicized is the bad stuff,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:18 the thing is that's not necessarily new newspapers you know 50 years ago covered
00:14:18 --> 00:14:22 the bad stuff mostly and yeah every once in a while a cat was saved from a tree
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 but mostly it's the bad stuff um,
00:14:25 --> 00:14:29 but there's just a prevalence of it and it's in your feet it's in your face,
00:14:29 --> 00:14:35 you know our phones i don't know six inches from our eyeballs and we just see
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 negative negative thing or we see.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:43 Uh you know somebody posing with their lamborghini and like i don't i don't
00:14:43 --> 00:14:47 have a lamborghini i don't have that so even when you see the good stuff you
00:14:47 --> 00:14:51 start to realize but that's not my existence. That's not where I'm at.
00:14:51 --> 00:14:55 So a lot of it is that we're being fed constantly.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:57 But then I think there's a,
00:14:58 --> 00:15:02 There's a, there's a culture movement that in its essence is good,
00:15:03 --> 00:15:07 but all things that maybe have a root of good can be misused.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 And that is that we are just more honest about things.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:14 Uh, you know, you'll find a lot of younger people, but people of all ages being
00:15:14 --> 00:15:18 like, Oh yeah, I got depression. I got ADHD.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:23 I got anxiety. There's like an openness about that. And there's a healthy aspect
00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 to that, that we haven't stigmatized that.
00:15:26 --> 00:15:30 But then this leads us into areas where we're just more open and honest about,
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 like, things aren't good.
00:15:34 --> 00:15:40 Politics has always been nasty, but we're now more talking about how it's nasty.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:46 And there's definitely some truth in which case it's gotten worse with certain
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48 political figures and things.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:53 And so it just seems like a lot of the systems of the world are just bad.
00:15:53 --> 00:15:57 Politics is one of the best examples of that. Like, if you're in the United
00:15:57 --> 00:16:04 States and you feel like the government is not working in your interest whatsoever, whether that's,
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 because of your socioeconomic status, the color of your skin,
00:16:07 --> 00:16:13 your sexual orientation, like you could have a hard time having hope if this
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 huge giant political machine,
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 doesn't really want you around doesn't want you to express yourself or something like that so
00:16:22 --> 00:16:28 um yeah 100 you're gonna feel some despair because of that and like specifically
00:16:28 --> 00:16:32 with the children thing i also hear people talk about like climate change specifically
00:16:32 --> 00:16:35 like will the future have the resources
00:16:35 --> 00:16:39 because we see the studies, we see that it doesn't look good.
00:16:40 --> 00:16:46 So will there be resources in the future? And hope has to do with looking towards the future.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:52 And right now, the people calculating, you know, different scenarios in the
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 future, a lot of those aren't good.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:57 And, you know, there's like the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists who has their
00:16:57 --> 00:17:01 doomsday clock. Like, whoo, that thing's getting a little close to,
00:17:02 --> 00:17:08 what is it, midnight, I think? You know, like it's closer to these apocalyptic scenarios.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:16 And so we see that, and I'm not going to say anybody's wrong for feeling something when,
00:17:16 --> 00:17:22 there are some really big machines and systems in the world that don't seem
00:17:22 --> 00:17:25 to promise us some good things in the next years. Yeah.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:32 So one of the things, though, that has been in the past when people feel.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:42 Unsure about things, uncertain about the future, has been religion or faith.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:48 And one of the other interesting things that I've noticed and I think other
00:17:48 --> 00:17:56 people have noticed about younger generations is that they are less religious than older generations,
00:17:57 --> 00:18:03 and so that you don't see people kind of relying on faith,
00:18:05 --> 00:18:11 to kind of get them through times and you know I kind of talked about earlier
00:18:11 --> 00:18:18 about And people, especially whether it's sexual orientation or persons of color,
00:18:19 --> 00:18:25 and especially I'm looking more for persons of color that in the past when things
00:18:25 --> 00:18:31 were really rough, the church was considered a strong institution to kind of help people.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:36 But that isn't the case, it seems, with younger generations, right?
00:18:39 --> 00:18:47 Why do you think that they aren't running to, or at least relying on those as sources of hope,
00:18:50 --> 00:18:52 as opposed to older generations in the past?
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 Yeah, I think there's potentially a two-part answer. And the first thing is
00:18:58 --> 00:19:04 just that there's been some spotlights on the cracks.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:09 And there are problems with christian institutions,
00:19:10 --> 00:19:16 there are problems plain as day with a wide variety across all denominations across,
00:19:17 --> 00:19:21 outside of the christian religion um there are problems and we've seen those
00:19:21 --> 00:19:26 and we have and some of that has been exposed and it's ugly and it's something
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 that moves people away um
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 i mean i mentioned like at the top of the show like I thought the big problem with faith was,
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 evolution or something like that. That's why everybody was leaving the church.
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 No, when I talk to people, and I've been in college ministry,
00:19:40 --> 00:19:45 I work with a lot of young people on a weekly basis, monthly basis,
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 and the thing that scares people away is,
00:19:49 --> 00:19:57 But it's so harmful. It's like the church doesn't feel like it is a safe place to be that refuge.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:03 Because there are examples of clergy sexual abuse, abuse of all kinds.
00:20:04 --> 00:20:08 There are examples of people taking advantage of others, taking their money,
00:20:08 --> 00:20:12 and flying their two private jets around. Like, there is that.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 And so it doesn't seem like it is a refuge. Because, I mean,
00:20:17 --> 00:20:22 some of those problems exist in the past, but there wasn't a spotlight on them.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:24 We didn't know about them. We should have known about them, to be clear.
00:20:24 --> 00:20:27 The answer isn't cover that up.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 But there's this awareness of, oh, this isn't, like, great.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:40 And so then I think the other side is just institutions in general are not something trusted anymore.
00:20:41 --> 00:20:45 And there's, again, reasons for this. It's one, institutions fail.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:51 There was a long time in our human history where big institutions,
00:20:51 --> 00:20:56 churches, government, that was your life, and you just sat down and shut up,
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 and you just kind of had to go along with them.
00:20:59 --> 00:21:04 And we now have voices against those things, and again, there's an element of
00:21:04 --> 00:21:09 that's good, but there's a widespread notion that institutions are bad,
00:21:09 --> 00:21:12 that authority itself is problematic.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:20 And I think in a way, like, God calls us 100% to a different kind of authority.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:26 We should wield power differently. Like, there is a problem with how power is being wielded.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:30 But in general, people just aren't on board with institutions.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:34 Because it's not just the church. It's the judicial system.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:39 You know, it's the government. It's all, I think, like, all three branches of
00:21:39 --> 00:21:40 the government. Like, yeah.
00:21:41 --> 00:21:46 People do not trust them at all. Doesn't even matter what party's in there.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:54 And so people just don't trust big things anymore because we see a pattern of,
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 big institutions can be bad, which is correct.
00:21:58 --> 00:22:02 And so we throw them all out. We throw them all out. And that includes the church.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:05 Why should the church tell me what to do when I kind of have a,
00:22:06 --> 00:22:10 you know, my insides tell me to go this way or that kind of thing.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:18 And what's the result of all of that if you can't trust anything basically kind
00:22:18 --> 00:22:23 of your but yourself it seems like then you end up really isolated.
00:22:25 --> 00:22:31 Well right we we see that don't we we see a epidemic of loneliness,
00:22:31 --> 00:22:37 because we're told and again root of truth here we're told to cut off like toxic
00:22:37 --> 00:22:43 people for instance like yeah you You shouldn't be BFFs with somebody that's terrible to you.
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 But there's a notion of, oh, you made me uncomfortable.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 Cut that relationship off. And that happens over time. And yeah,
00:22:52 --> 00:22:53 you're going to get isolated.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 Because nobody can fit your standards.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 Because somebody will make you uncomfortable. Somebody is going to challenge you.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 And there's just so many things we can do alone now.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:11 Um and you know more activities the internet everything is geared towards being alone,
00:23:11 --> 00:23:17 easily entertain myself for like years you know through door dash or whatever
00:23:17 --> 00:23:21 i can lock myself in the house and not have to really ever come out um,
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 and that has dangerous side effects of course all that loneliness but yeah if
00:23:25 --> 00:23:31 you don't trust institutions you don't trust people it's just you, and,
00:23:32 --> 00:23:33 it's just all about you,
00:23:35 --> 00:23:39 it's going to lead to loneliness and probably get yourself in trouble.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:52 So then, you write about hope, and where does Christian hope fit into all of this?
00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 And I think it was interesting because you do bring up a few things about,
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 examples from Paul, where he writes about hope.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:13 But it's also interesting that you bring up things about Christ and how Christ lives.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:20 And it's funny because if you look at Jesus from one standpoint,
00:24:21 --> 00:24:22 it almost doesn't seem hopeful.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:32 Until you look a little bit closer. And especially when you talk about Jesus,
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 weeping with those who weep and mourning with those who mourn,
00:24:36 --> 00:24:39 there is hope in all that, even though it doesn't look like it.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:50 Yeah. Yeah. I make clear in that essay that having hope is not a denial.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:57 We don't just ignore the pain we feel now. We don't just, you know,
00:24:57 --> 00:25:01 shove that under a rug, put it in their closet. No.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:09 But hope is this stubborn belief that says, yeah, things are bad.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:15 That is a true statement of reality, but, but, that's where hope comes in,
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 but, they're not always going to be bad.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:22 There is something on the other side of this that is beautiful,
00:25:22 --> 00:25:29 that is glorious, that is good, that is this picture of God dwelling with us
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 where there is no more tears.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:38 That is something we hold on to as kind of the light at the end of the tunnel.
00:25:38 --> 00:25:47 We don't deny things are bad, but we hold to what is good and what will be fulfilled one day.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 That, I think, is kind of the essence of Christian hope.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:59 Though it also seems like that then links to the other virtue that you've talked
00:25:59 --> 00:26:03 about, or I don't know if you have talked about it or will, is faith,
00:26:03 --> 00:26:07 is that you have to believe that there is something on that other side.
00:26:09 --> 00:26:14 And that also seems sometimes in our culture, and I think especially among younger
00:26:14 --> 00:26:19 generations in short supply, there isn't a whole lot of faith that there is
00:26:19 --> 00:26:23 something beyond the current situation.
00:26:27 --> 00:26:33 Yeah, I like to say that faith is about confidence in someone,
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 or hope is about confidence in some thing.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:41 So they're linked, because you believe in Jesus, you believe in the promise
00:26:41 --> 00:26:46 of Jesus, that the good some things are going to happen one day.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 And I'm a fan of talking about faith in terms of loyalty and allegiance,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 because sometimes we kind of religiousify words like faith.
00:26:55 --> 00:26:59 But at its core, it's like, I'm Team Jesus, and I'm always rooting for Team Jesus.
00:27:00 --> 00:27:06 And even when it looks like this is not the team to root for right now, it is.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 It is. There's going to be a comeback here. It's going to be okay.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:16 And through the person of Jesus that we have faith in, we have this hope that
00:27:16 --> 00:27:22 our scenario, whatever it's going to be, what's broken now is going to be fixed one day.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:29 And then how would you say the person of Jesus does give hope?
00:27:30 --> 00:27:37 And especially to someone, let's say, who has a very rudimentary background when it comes to faith.
00:27:41 --> 00:27:46 I mean, I'm a Christian because I'm compelled by the person of Jesus,
00:27:46 --> 00:27:47 right? So, like, I like Jesus.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:59 And one of those things that's amazing is that Jesus becomes human and experiences things along with us.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:05 Like, you know, Hebrews uses the language of, like, kind of has been tempted like we are.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:11 And so we have a God that's, like, relatable. I mean, you know,
00:28:11 --> 00:28:17 we, I will, at least I did. I had my like Greek mythology phase in like elementary school or whatnot.
00:28:18 --> 00:28:23 Those Greek gods are, in some ways they are like humans because they're like
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26 sleeping with each other and doing crazy things.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:33 But they don't, oh yeah, but they don't experience kind of the,
00:28:33 --> 00:28:37 the real human trials and tribulations.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:44 And they can skip those sometimes. And there's just those...
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 Those other mythologies or views of God just are different than that, you know?
00:28:50 --> 00:28:55 They're not as intimate, I think is an appropriate word here, where Jesus is.
00:28:56 --> 00:29:04 Emmanuel means God with us. And so I think that's what gives me hope, is Jesus is like,
00:29:05 --> 00:29:08 okay, well, I hate to do the classic, like, you know, footprints of the sand
00:29:08 --> 00:29:11 analogy, but it's like Jesus is carrying us.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 Jesus is with us right there.
00:29:14 --> 00:29:18 Yeah, I'm feeling this too. I'm with you.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:24 Jesus didn't escape the icky parts of humanity.
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 And, I mean, really, like, you know, first century Palestine,
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 it's got to be really stinky and icky and all that kind of stuff.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 Jesus didn't escape that.
00:29:33 --> 00:29:44 And I think that's important to me, that God came to us, as Philippians 2 says,
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 you know, like, took the form of a servant.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51 I think that's beautiful. I think that gives me hope. It's saying,
00:29:51 --> 00:29:55 like, Jesus is not only the one that gives you grand promises,
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 but it's like, I'm also right there with you right now. I'm taking your hand.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:00 Let's go on this journey together.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:05 You cannot do this alone, because your faith, your hope will falter.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:08 But come along with me. We'll do this together.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 I'm a fan of that. Yeah.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:20 I've always been a fan of the Mary's Magnificat as a sense of hope,
00:30:20 --> 00:30:25 of the things that maybe keep people down don't last forever.
00:30:27 --> 00:30:34 That that's yes they're bad and I don't think that's you know you can deny that,
00:30:34 --> 00:30:40 but they're not all permanent that God is and that can be a hopeful thing,
00:30:42 --> 00:30:47 Yeah, I like that, too. I think that's a very good point. There's going to be
00:30:47 --> 00:30:50 a rewriting of wrongs, and that's compelling to me.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 What would you say or how do you think,
00:30:59 --> 00:31:03 faith communities can help people and have a sense of hope?
00:31:03 --> 00:31:09 And maybe especially to connect with younger generations with a sense of hope,
00:31:11 --> 00:31:16 that is realistic. I mean, you've talked about how institutions have failed. This is true.
00:31:17 --> 00:31:21 But those are also the institutions that we have.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:28 That's what we have. But how to give hope in a fallen world.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:31 Hmm.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:39 Well, this is the big question. If somebody else has all the answers, let me know.
00:31:40 --> 00:31:44 But I think it has something to do with modeling.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:48 I don't know that hope can be taught with a chalkboard.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54 It has to be modeled and lived. And I bet we can all think of some people,
00:31:54 --> 00:31:58 it's like, whoa, that person, they're just on a different level.
00:31:58 --> 00:32:03 They are hopeful and they are living life. And we, this happened to them,
00:32:03 --> 00:32:05 this happened to them, but they're still kicking.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 I think it has to be modeled. I think it's going to take some humility there.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:14 And I think where humility comes in is, again, trying to balance here.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:18 There's this notion that I hear
00:32:18 --> 00:32:23 a lot of people say, because the news is negative, I turn off the news.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:28 I just ignore the bad stuff of the world. I'm not sure that's the answer either.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:34 The humility comes into play because it, again, recognizes there is bad.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:35 There is bad, 100%. There is.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:42 But I stubbornly choose to not let that define my life. I have confidence in
00:32:42 --> 00:32:44 the things unseen. I have hope.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:49 And that means we're going to have to have pastors and church leaders that are
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 modeling that. We're going to have to have old ladies in the pew that model that.
00:32:53 --> 00:32:59 We need to model that for all generations, especially the upcoming generation. Um,
00:33:00 --> 00:33:04 We're all looking, and young people especially, looking for something greater than ourselves.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:10 And so I think that life is compelling, a truly hopeful life.
00:33:10 --> 00:33:15 People take note. You just look different. You act different.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:19 You're not swayed by the things. You can be sad at the bad things in reality,
00:33:20 --> 00:33:22 but that doesn't crush you.
00:33:23 --> 00:33:29 And I think people take note. And so I wish this could be taught or hope could
00:33:29 --> 00:33:31 be injected into your veins or something
00:33:31 --> 00:33:34 like that, although I don't like needles, so I wouldn't want that.
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38 But in reality, it just has to be modeled.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:44 You have to live it, and other people have to take notice and go along with that journey with you.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:52 Yeah, I think going back to the recent interview I had with Griffin Goosh, it's,
00:33:53 --> 00:33:58 you know, the interesting thing about what he was saying about children makes
00:33:58 --> 00:34:04 me think that sometimes, you know, because in some ways having children is a
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07 way of having hope. It is.
00:34:08 --> 00:34:16 I mean, obviously the birth of Christ was a sense of hope, that there is something beyond what we see.
00:34:17 --> 00:34:24 And I think sometimes that that's also an issue in our world is that we live
00:34:24 --> 00:34:30 in a world that's very imminent, and so we don't believe in something that's transcendent.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:36 And if you can't believe that there's something from beyond that can act into
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 our world, you're going to have a whole lot of despair.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:42 And I think things like,
00:34:44 --> 00:34:48 having children or seeing a child be born or holding a newborn baby.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:56 Is a reminder that, you know, we aren't alone, that God does act in our world,
00:34:58 --> 00:35:01 and that we're just not left to our own devices.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:09 Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. I encountered a very similar idea in Stanley Hauerwas'
00:35:09 --> 00:35:15 book Community of Character where he makes that same point that children are acts of hope where,
00:35:16 --> 00:35:20 a child, you can't control all their actions. You can try, but you can't.
00:35:21 --> 00:35:25 And there's an element of risk in there, but hope involves risk.
00:35:26 --> 00:35:32 To go up and ask the person you think is cute out that involves risk but it
00:35:32 --> 00:35:36 can pay off marvelously. Like, hope involves a little bit of that,
00:35:37 --> 00:35:38 going into the danger zone.
00:35:39 --> 00:35:43 But that's where the good stuff is found, just on the other side of the scary
00:35:43 --> 00:35:45 things, the uncomfortable things.
00:35:48 --> 00:35:53 What do you think, what would you say to someone in your generation now that,
00:35:54 --> 00:35:58 might be thinking, I'm never going to have, you know, a job,
00:35:58 --> 00:36:01 I'm never going to get married?
00:36:03 --> 00:36:08 How do you give them a sense of hope? How do you give them a sense of this kind
00:36:08 --> 00:36:12 of Christian hope that is out there?
00:36:13 --> 00:36:16 Hmm. I mean,
00:36:18 --> 00:36:22 again, I wish there were easier, clearer answers to me.
00:36:23 --> 00:36:27 I do think, again, part of it goes back to just hand-holding,
00:36:27 --> 00:36:33 and not in a patronizing way, but just like holding people's hands and walking through this with them.
00:36:33 --> 00:36:38 Um we're gonna we're gonna have to do that together uh if we if we go back even
00:36:38 --> 00:36:40 in our interview to loneliness right,
00:36:41 --> 00:36:47 one way to combat the result of all this despair which is loneliness is to make
00:36:47 --> 00:36:52 sure people aren't lonely uh to invite them out to dinner or to
00:36:52 --> 00:36:57 go grab coffee or to say the new marvel movie is playing this weekend let's go,
00:36:58 --> 00:37:04 Combat the loneliness, which is a symptom, but you can begin to heal,
00:37:04 --> 00:37:08 I think, some of the underlying despair. Give that hope.
00:37:09 --> 00:37:14 I also, I don't know, I've been reflecting on lately, like, I think we need
00:37:14 --> 00:37:18 to kind of capture, I'm not sure maybe your experience is in your corner of
00:37:18 --> 00:37:21 the Christian culture, but in my culture, like.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:26 There's, you know, there's some Christians that focus too much on the bad.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:31 It's all about the bad stuff and the judgment. And this could be a progressive
00:37:31 --> 00:37:34 and conservative problem. You can focus on the negative.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:40 But again, the solution isn't to always be positive. But I want to recapture
00:37:40 --> 00:37:43 a scriptural imagination of what we can expect.
00:37:43 --> 00:37:50 And I don't mean like a study on, well, in heaven, what exactly will your mansion look like?
00:37:50 --> 00:37:55 We can get into some weird speculative areas, right? Like, I don't know all the details there.
00:37:55 --> 00:38:01 But let's talk about heaven more. This earth is 100% important,
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 but let's also talk about what the future brings.
00:38:04 --> 00:38:07 Let's open up Revelation 21 every now and then.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:12 And over time, I think we just need to cast that vision.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:14 We need to kind of show people, like, there's something good here,
00:38:15 --> 00:38:18 even if you don't see it right now. There's something good there.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:24 It's a careful balancing act, because I keep saying this, like.
00:38:27 --> 00:38:32 We've got to acknowledge the bad reality, but also acknowledge the good reality waiting for us.
00:38:33 --> 00:38:38 And so I think it's going to take some good old preaching and some just casting the vision.
00:38:38 --> 00:38:42 Let's talk about the promises that await. Again, we don't need to get into all
00:38:42 --> 00:38:47 the nitty-gritty of whatever. And don't ask me how many years the Tribulation
00:38:47 --> 00:38:49 will last or anything like that.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:57 But maybe there's a way in which we need to be defined by that future hope and
00:38:57 --> 00:38:59 talk about it a little bit more.
00:39:01 --> 00:39:07 And that takes some time. One sermon's not going to cure a depressed Gen Z kid or whatever.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:15 But if Christians are known as we're the people that see the good even when
00:39:15 --> 00:39:19 there's bad, that can shape us.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:25 So, so again, like combat that loneliness, hold some hands, be with people,
00:39:25 --> 00:39:30 invite them out to stuff, but then also give us an imaginative,
00:39:31 --> 00:39:32 you know, imagine the future with us.
00:39:33 --> 00:39:37 Imagine what it could be because we focus on all the ways things could go wrong.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:40 But what if, what if things go right?
00:39:40 --> 00:39:44 What if, I think we should, we should talk more about that, that vision.
00:39:46 --> 00:39:53 I do wonder at times if we need to talk more about heaven, because I think,
00:39:54 --> 00:39:58 at least from my neck of the woods and mostly mainline circles,
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00 we don't talk about that.
00:40:00 --> 00:40:04 And we kind of talk about everything here.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 And I think the fear is always that heaven is escapist, that we're not going
00:40:10 --> 00:40:14 to deal with the world as it is, or the world that's happening.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:16 And that's, I understand that.
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20 But I also think that heaven is a sense of hope.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:30 It's a sense of the things that are keeping us down now won't be there on the
00:40:30 --> 00:40:37 other side, and that that's a kind of a future hope for people.
00:40:37 --> 00:40:43 And there has to be a way of talking about that that doesn't ignore current
00:40:43 --> 00:40:47 realities and isn't just kind of, you know,
00:40:48 --> 00:40:53 the escape ship away or something, but is actually about hope because that's
00:40:53 --> 00:40:59 how I've always interpreted heaven is that it is a sense of hope.
00:41:00 --> 00:41:06 It is a sense of joy in some ways that the thing that.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:15 However hard our current reality is, it doesn't compare to what's coming next.
00:41:16 --> 00:41:23 And I don't know how we are able to reclaim that a little bit more. Yeah.
00:41:24 --> 00:41:28 You know, my wife's a teacher. I've been a teacher before.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:33 And some of the hardest months are always those last few months of school.
00:41:33 --> 00:41:38 It's just not a fun time for anybody. The kids, the teachers, nobody.
00:41:39 --> 00:41:43 But when you see, like, summer is coming, we have work to do,
00:41:43 --> 00:41:45 we gotta do stuff, we're not ignoring things.
00:41:46 --> 00:41:48 Well, maybe the last couple days you watch movies.
00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 But in those few months, you're doing stuff. In fact, a lot of state testing's
00:41:51 --> 00:41:54 like in April. It's like right at the end of school, which is a whole other
00:41:54 --> 00:41:59 thing. But there is that hope of summer is coming. We just gotta get through
00:41:59 --> 00:42:01 this stuff here, but there is something good there.
00:42:02 --> 00:42:05 So I absolutely think we can preach like that.
00:42:05 --> 00:42:09 We have some things to do here, but summer's coming. but the good stuff is coming
00:42:09 --> 00:42:13 on the other side and we'll get to, we'll get to breathe and rest.
00:42:14 --> 00:42:19 That rest is promised to us. We got to work now, but, but we'll get a,
00:42:19 --> 00:42:22 we'll go on a cruise or something later. We'll, we'll, we'll relax. Yeah.
00:42:24 --> 00:42:30 So are there any like practices that you do or what things that you do to help
00:42:30 --> 00:42:32 and keep inspiring hope?
00:42:35 --> 00:42:40 Yeah, I think it is a practice to see the good in people and in things.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:48 I'm usually naturally inclined to do that, but it is still a practice.
00:42:48 --> 00:42:51 I'm going to use that word stubborn again, because you have to kind of stubbornly
00:42:51 --> 00:42:54 say, I'm not going to focus on just the bad.
00:42:56 --> 00:43:00 But I think it's a practice that can be journaled. I'm a writer.
00:43:00 --> 00:43:05 I do a lot of writing, and that is how I do my own kind of self-therapy in some ways.
00:43:05 --> 00:43:09 Um, it's, it's, and I do, I also do some like cultural writing stuff,
00:43:09 --> 00:43:12 like looking at movies and things like that from different Christian perspectives.
00:43:13 --> 00:43:18 And so turning on that lens of I'm looking for the deeper meanings,
00:43:18 --> 00:43:21 I'm looking for the good, I'm looking for that.
00:43:22 --> 00:43:26 Guess what? It means I find that. I discover some things.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:34 Um, we have to train our brains to look for the little moments because hope
00:43:34 --> 00:43:37 is a future distant thing and that it's hard to just,
00:43:38 --> 00:43:42 kind of imagine what's going to happen in the future but we can see,
00:43:43 --> 00:43:48 little glimpses of hope now we can see little bits of good here and there the
00:43:48 --> 00:43:54 kingdom of God is breaking in right now it's not all the way here there's you
00:43:54 --> 00:43:57 know we'll see it's fullness later but it's breaking in now um,
00:43:58 --> 00:44:02 and so there are going to be moments of good it's kind of like that uh um.
00:44:04 --> 00:44:08 Oh, Mr. Rogers quote about look for the helpers, right? In any kind of tragedy.
00:44:10 --> 00:44:16 We, in really bad situations, there's still some good, but the,
00:44:16 --> 00:44:21 the camera lenses of culture and media will often be focused on the bad.
00:44:21 --> 00:44:30 And so we need to willfully put our lenses on a different spot and to look for the good stuff.
00:44:31 --> 00:44:35 And so that's a practice and that's something that you can force yourself to
00:44:35 --> 00:44:42 do whether that's through writing where I have to intentionally do that journaling
00:44:42 --> 00:44:44 in case you don't publish your writing or something like that,
00:44:46 --> 00:44:52 with your partner at the end of the day talk about the good things my dad's
00:44:52 --> 00:44:55 favorite thing was always highs and lows you can skip the lows sometimes that's
00:44:55 --> 00:44:59 legal talk about the highs from the day what were the good things,
00:45:00 --> 00:45:04 that's a practice that builds over time and you just get naturally better at looking for that.
00:45:08 --> 00:45:16 So if people want to know more about you, and you have a lot of stuff that people
00:45:16 --> 00:45:18 probably would want to know, where should they go?
00:45:20 --> 00:45:25 Yeah, I think right now the best kind of one-stop shopping, if you will, is Substack.
00:45:27 --> 00:45:34 Jakedoberins.substack.com I write every Friday, I have a new newsletter come out.
00:45:35 --> 00:45:39 And then on Tuesday, a new episode of Christianity Without Compromise comes
00:45:39 --> 00:45:45 out of the podcast. So the podcast on Tuesday is writing on Fridays.
00:45:46 --> 00:45:50 And then, yeah, I'll just hang around there and I'll post links to my other,
00:45:50 --> 00:45:55 wild things that I'm working on and things like that. So go there, subscribe.
00:45:55 --> 00:46:01 I would definitely love you to join the conversation over there. Yeah.
00:46:01 --> 00:46:04 And you had a really good one just recently with Richard Beck,
00:46:04 --> 00:46:08 so I'm a big Richard Beck fan, so I loved it.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:15 Oh, yeah, I liked that episode with Richard Beck, too. We're both from that
00:46:15 --> 00:46:19 same kind of church background, so we get to talk shop and then talk about how
00:46:19 --> 00:46:21 the Bible's about love, which is a great topic as well.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:25 Yeah, thanks for that. All right, well, Jake, thank you so much,
00:46:25 --> 00:46:30 and I hope to have you back on soon. So this was the first. I loved it.
00:46:30 --> 00:46:31 Yeah, we'd love to have you back.
00:46:32 --> 00:46:35 So we'll talk again. Yeah, thank you.
00:47:05 --> 00:47:09 Was helpful for you. As usual, if you want to find out more,
00:47:10 --> 00:47:14 or if you have any thoughts, actually, I should say, any questions,
00:47:14 --> 00:47:15 I'd love to hear from you.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:24 You don't have to be shy. You can comment on Substack.
00:47:25 --> 00:47:32 I actually do put these episodes, they usually follow a week after their debut on the Maine website.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:38 So you can comment there. You can also send an email to churchinmaineatsubstack.com.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:43 And let me know what you think. What do you observe about hope,
00:47:43 --> 00:47:45 especially if you are part of Gen Z?
00:47:46 --> 00:47:48 What does hope mean for you?
00:47:50 --> 00:47:55 What are you seeing in the culture? I, again, would love to hear from you.
00:47:56 --> 00:48:02 Also, I will put links to that article and to Jake's link to his podcast.
00:48:02 --> 00:48:13 He has some good people that he talks to and definitely want to promote the podcast.
00:48:15 --> 00:48:24 Also, if you want to learn more about this podcast, listen to past episodes, donate, check me out.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:28 It's churchinmain.org. Churchinmain is all one word.
00:48:28 --> 00:48:35 You can also visit the Substack, as I said earlier, churchinmain.substack.com to read articles.
00:48:35 --> 00:48:40 I just have one up now that is talking about the role of ministers in our time
00:48:40 --> 00:48:46 with the title Heavy Lies the Stole, and I'll put a link in the show notes for that as well.
00:48:47 --> 00:48:54 Episodes do appear, as I said, on Substack, usually a week after they are a debut.
00:48:55 --> 00:48:58 So just to let you be aware of that.
00:49:01 --> 00:49:07 And you can become a subscriber, a paid subscriber, to the Substack.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:14 I don't put any kind of paywalls on things.
00:49:16 --> 00:49:22 So if you're wanting to be a paid subscriber, that is, see it as a donation.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:28 And that is $5 a month, $60 per year.
00:49:29 --> 00:49:37 If you want to um also please consider um rating or reviewing this podcast uh,
00:49:37 --> 00:49:41 when you do that that allows other people to find a podcast so please consider
00:49:41 --> 00:49:42 doing that if you have the chance.
00:49:44 --> 00:49:50 And that is it oh before i forget um just to let you know that in august i will
00:49:50 --> 00:49:55 be uh there won't be any episodes during august there may be one that will come out but,
00:49:56 --> 00:50:00 not many or really any episodes until September.
00:50:01 --> 00:50:07 I'm trying to, I kind of started this last year to have an August break where
00:50:07 --> 00:50:13 I wasn't putting out new episodes just to take a break and catch my breath.
00:50:13 --> 00:50:20 I'm also just starting and are in the midst of my pastoral sabbatical during July and August.
00:50:20 --> 00:50:25 So, I wanted to try to take some time off from the podcast to do that.
00:50:26 --> 00:50:31 But rest assured, there will be new episodes coming out starting in September.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:37 So, that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Andrews, your host.
00:50:38 --> 00:50:40 Again, thank you so much for listening. Take care, everyone.
00:50:41 --> 00:50:44 Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.