In this milestone 200th episode of Church in Maine, I chat with Jim Keat, digital minister at Riverside Church, about the theological foundations of digital ministry. We explore how technology enables authentic connections and engagement within congregations, especially during the shifts driven by the COVID-19 pandemic. Jim highlights the importance of a theology rooted in love, grace, and justice, advocating for a reconceptualization of church as a portable community. Our discussion challenges traditional views and emphasizes the role of digital ministers in fostering meaningful relationships and navigating the complexities of online ministry.
Show Notes:
Jim’s Page on Riverside Church’s website
Jim Keat’s prior episode on Church and Main
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[0:22] Music.
[0:50] Thank you.
[0:55] Hello, hello, and welcome to Church in Maine. And yes, this is the 200th episode of the podcast. The podcast has actually gone through a few name changes over the time, but this is the 200th episode. Church in Maine is a podcast for people interested in seeing where faith, politics, and culture intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. And as I said in the intro, this is kind of part two of a conversation on digital ministry. Last week, I talked to Ryan Dunn. He's a minister for online engagement for the United Methodist Church. And this week, I am bringing back a former guest, Jim Keat. Jim is the digital minister of Riverside Church in New York City. He's also the director for online innovation at Convergence. And we don't in this one just talk about the nuts and bolts. We actually talk about the theology behind digital ministry and with Jim, it's always done in the most interesting way possible and I think you will enjoy it. We will also talk about the Volksschlaffe in our native Michigan and you may want to ask what is the Volksschlaffe? Well, you gotta listen to find out.
[2:18] So without further ado, here is my interview with fellow Michigander Jim Keat.
[2:23] Music.
[2:58] All right, Jim, thank you for coming on to the podcast again. This has been a kind of a comedy of errors of trying to find a time that works. But I'm glad we were finally able to get together to chat today. Me too, Dennis. Always good to talk. For people who don't know who you are, can you kind of maybe do a short little introduction of who you are, what you're doing and all that? Yeah, in a brief snapshot, I'm the digital minister, or technically I'm the minister for digital worship and education at the Riverside Church. We gave me a more, you know, a title that aligns with the other clergy. So my work there really focuses on how do we explore the digital expression and the way online and remote congregants engage Riverside's work primarily through worship and education resources. Not to say that the other areas aren't needed, but those are the areas where we have the most momentum and activity. So it makes sense to play where the players are. So that's what I spend a lot of my time doing. And then in addition to that, I'm the director of online innovation at Convergence, which is an organization that helps.
[4:03] Progressive faith-based congregations, groups, faith leaders in how they can just be better at what they do. And my focus is on how do they focus on these online areas and things and how can they not only use the internet well, but also use it for good. So I get to do a lot of consulting and coaching and those things. Other sorts of things keep my interest, helping organizations and agencies do that kind of stuff. But those are generally the hats that I end up wearing. I'm also a runner, which is why I'm wearing running clothes right now.
[4:35] At some point, I need to ask if you've ever run, if they still do it, the Volksschlaf back in michigan oh yes almost every year here in my hometown franklin with michigan every fourth of july i didn't run it this year because i was sick and i was just recovering but typically i run it every it goes right by our house we have signs out my wife's there with our kids cheering for everybody we're at like mile 10.2 on the 13.1 of it all but yeah we're so i do the half marathon of it every year yeah all right cool cool i just wondered in kind of before we got on the broad because you were talking about running it's like, You know, that's where they do the Volkswagen. I wonder if he did it. So good to know that. All right. Well, I think the reason I have you on is to talk a little bit about you did a video that's actually part of a series that you're doing called Theology of Digital Ministry.
[5:23] And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that and kind of to compare that with how especially social media is being viewed these days, which is usually not positive. Yeah. And for a lot of reasons, both good and bad. And maybe just to ask how and why the church should still have a presence in social media.
[5:49] But I think to start that all off is, you talk in your video about a theology of digital ministry. And I think the most basic question I want to ask is, why do we need a theology of digital ministry? Ministry? Oh, well, that's because sometimes we're quick to just focus on the first word, and we miss the second word. This isn't just like tech support. This is still a ministry. This is still extending the love and grace and justice of God to the people as far as we can possibly reach. And when it comes to digital stuff, that reaches as far as the Wi-Fi signal or the phone signal will allow. And so I think it emphasizes that ministerial component to it all. Just generally in digital ministry period, I think this definitely happened during the pandemic, peak pandemic, where anyone who leaned into digital ministry was primarily just like editing videos and managing like tech support stuff and live streams and Zoom things, which is good. You have to have some infrastructure in place to even be able to gather with the people and have those encounters. But But that's the finger pointing to the moon. The purpose of all that tech stuff is to reach and engage and connect with people. And that's where the ministry comes in. And that's where a theology has to undergird a larger why of all of this stuff. Otherwise, you just get so focused on having the fanciest technology and not really connecting with the people. The authenticity.
[7:13] Do you think early on, especially during COVID, because so many people, of course, we didn't have a choice. We had to go online that a lot of us were just kind of going online, but not really understanding why we were doing this.
[7:29] Probably. And that's true, I think, for most things that humans tend to do. We just kind of learn to walk and then figure out why we're walking. But the goal is then, I think, to build in some of those reflexive moments and spaces. Like, what is it in CPE, the action, reflection, action model where you do a thing and then you build in space to deeply and intentionally reflect on the thing and then you go do it again. So it's not just like one and done, you never get to have another chat, but you get to constantly be iterating and learning. So I think pastors are very guilty of just sprinting forward without looking back because every seven days we got to do this thing. So we rarely have time to pause and ask, how did it go? Why did it go that way? And I think the same was definitely true in 2020, 2021, 2022, when we were just learning so many new things. So, it's okay that we were just trying to figure out which way is up, but I hope that as we continue, we can really deepen and have a more intentional theology undergirding all the things we're doing, particularly these digital things as well. Have you sensed, especially in your work, that people are asking those questions? So how does this, what is the purpose of this? How does this fit into our ministry? How is it ministry?
[8:48] Um, some people are, uh, yes and no. I think there's probably three camps. There's people who are like, I'm glad we don't have to do that anymore. Let's go back to the way things used to be. Um, there's people who are just kind of like, let's maintain a status quo of doing all the things. And then they're just caught up in this cycle of like, okay, maintain hybrid everything, which is very frenetic and not ideally either. And then there's probably others who are really really critically thinking about how this work can be done. And I've had the privilege of getting to know a lot of those individuals through cohorts I've led and just other people who were churches who've established positions in digital ministry who have gotten to connect with those individuals. And that really allows for a kind of space to think about it more intentionally. I always love when a church of any size has some sort of intentional role designed for digital ministry, whether it's a big church like the Washington Cathedral, just in the past year, hired their first digital pastor. And I know small churches have like a quarter-time digital minister.
[9:49] And the goal is always, how is it not just, you're the tech support, you're the one who knows how to do Zoom, how are you then bringing this intentional theological lens? Just like, I mean, really, a lot of this to me equates to other ministerial evolutions we've seen. Children's ministry. You can have children's ministry, which is like, okay, you're good with kids, great, they'll be content. tent? Or we could say, are we thinking deeply, critically, theologically about the formation of our youngest congregants who actually probably need the most theological care, especially at those formative years?
[10:19] Hopefully we are empowering individuals, whether they're paid staff or volunteers, to look at that role, not just as Sunday morning babysitters, but as theological caregivers. And I think the same shift is true and needs to continue to be true, especially in digital ministry.
[10:37] So in your video, you use three interesting examples to describe digital ministry.
[10:45] Airstreams, The Little Mermaid, and Campfires. And I want to start, of course, with the one that is the most interesting, and that's The Little Mermaid. And it's just so interesting. But that one, you have an interesting thing because you talk about being where the people are. And can you explain how does that link up with digital ministry? I think we all need Little Mermaid theology, period. That is what ministry has always been about. I want to be where the people are. The word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. That just seems to be the Little Mermaid in Jesus telling the same story of that radical imminence, that incarnational presence. And I think that's what digital ministry allows. I've felt this leaning long before the pandemic. I remember there was a time I was fed up with Facebook, probably back in 2010.
[11:43] 2011, 2012, I don't know, ages ago. I've been fed up with Facebook since then. I'm back on it. But I was like, done. I was like, I don't want this thing. This isn't useful.
[11:51] Then I started working at a church. And I remember one day, a congregant was talking to another congregant saying, oh, hey, thanks for praying for me this week. I'm glad you saw my post. Like, oh, wait, did I not see this? Where was this? Oh, I posted it on on Facebook, and a bunch of congregants were there supporting me. And I realized, if I am leaving this space because of my disgust for it, but my congregants are there, I am abdicating my incarnational presence. Now, there are ethical concerns, moral concerns, yes, those are all valid, but the point of the matter is, am I willing to show up where the people are? Like, if I have a favorite bar that I go to, but all my congregants go to the other one, and I'm trying to have this, you know, pub theology ministry, I should probably go where the people are. If I want my own alone time, that's a good thing. But if you are trying to enter a space with an intentional ministerial presence, the whole call has always been to be present with the people, to be where the people are, to reflect and represent God in the midst and in spite of all of us. So I think digital ministry just allows for that because these are places people are showing up. The numbers are staggering, which is frightening, the amount of time people spend in these digital spaces. Spaces so we need to ask as as are we you know just fanning the flame of digital addiction.
[13:05] That's a conversation but i'm not just going to say i'm not going to be where you are because i don't like the space you know that that just seems like i'm putting my head in the sand and wanting to you know go back to some unreachable past rather than be intentionally present where i am and where the world is inevitably going.
[13:24] So how do you deal with the viewpoint? And I mean, it's becoming more and more common every day about looking at social media and all the problems that are, that we kind of associate with it and seeing it like, you know, we all have to leave. We just can't be there. How do you combat that with this sense that we have to be where the people are, which even with all the negativity, there are still a lot of people on social media. Yeah. Well, I think part of that is you don't need to be in all the places because you can't. So there needs to, again, to be intentionality into where are you choosing to spend time and energy and attention? We all have the same 24 hours in a day. We all have the same, you know, what is it? 525 minutes in a year. That one's an easy number to remember.
[14:12] So how are you going to spend your time in your one precious life? It's like at Riverside, We have given up on Twitter, you know, the thing formerly known as Twitter. We didn't delete our account. We have a final pinned post that says, we're no longer using this platform. We have something that says something appropriately nice because Elon Musk is a horrible person. I don't know. It says something of that nature. But we say, here's where you can find us. There are still people on Twitter. I'm not saying that no one's there anymore. But that platform has fundamentally shifted from what it used to be. So it's no longer the public town square it once was. was, and at Riverside especially, our congregants aren't there. That's not the place where the congregation we are called to serve is spending their time. Now, a lot of them are on Facebook. That's going to be a demographic Venn diagram for a lot of churches. I think the age group that spends the most time per day on Facebook are people 55 and older, which I'm like, oh, that coincides with a lot of the age of probably most, especially mainline congregations. So Facebook is probably still what you need to use to reach your people. But then other platforms like Instagram, TikTok, there's these platforms that have growing audiences there. And can you put yourself in a space where people who might need to encounter you are. One of my good friends, Bethany Pierbolt, RevBethany on TikTok, you should all follow her. She was a youth pastor at a church just outside of Detroit.
[15:37] During the pandemic, she was talking with some of her high school students on a Zoom thing they were doing. And some of them were saying some phrases that she was like, we don't teach that kind of theological language. Where are you hearing this? And they were saying, oh, there's some people on TikTok we saw that were saying all these things. So she realized her students were on this platform learning stuff about theology that was very much misaligned with the progressive theological values that their congregation held. She's like, I think I need to show up in this space to just offer a different kind of presence and message. And she's been doing that, has an incredible following on TikTok and other platforms and is doing incredible work in those spaces. But it was the intentionality not to try to go be a superstar, but to show up particularly where her people were, her like 20 students were, and how can she be present in the spaces they're in, rather than just saying, oh, it's horrible, it's social media. No, if our people are there, how do we show up in the space for the sake of something good? Even if we're swimming in the waters of moral evil, how do we still advocate for something good along the way? I have similar views about capitalism, by the way.
[16:47] So, you know, and I think you also talk a little bit about, um, campfires and that's the, the other one that you talk about. And that one is, is also fascinating because you talk a lot about the concept of presence. Yeah. Um, there's actually a church here in Minneapolis that talks about being a presence in the city. And so we kind of talk a lot especially in a brick and mortar way of being this physical presence but you also advocate that, Really, there isn't a difference between in-person and kind of virtual, that they're really kind of the same. What does it mean to have kind of that kind of a presence online in digital spaces?
[17:40] Yeah, I think part of it is recognizing that it always is about people. It's not just about the piece of content and how many views it gets or what. It's about the people who are engaging it and the ways that connections can come because of that. That's the whole campfire metaphor for me. These are digital campfires. These are things around which people can gather. The purpose of the video is not the video. The purpose of the video is the sparks it can create as we find ourselves gathered around it, whether it's just to sit there in a shared space or to have a conversation that springs from it and goes someplace. I mean, the same is true in our physical spaces. is the purpose of the building isn't to look nice. It's to be a functional thing for people to come into and go out of to do good in the world or to serve people in particular ways. But it's very easy to get fixated on just making sure the building looks nice and the carpet is clean and whatever.
[18:35] You know, so there's all sorts of vanity metrics you can get caught up in. But I think we have to fundamentally remind ourselves, what is it we're gathering around? I kind of root that in, I think, at the beginning of Acts chapter two, the early church, where they would gather around, you know, sharing their common meal and prayer and the teaching. There was this thing that brought the people together. And you might say, that was the point, the teaching. No, I don't think so. I think that was just the excuse for the people to have a shared experience to deepen what that emerging faith was in them and among them. So it's just more of a reminder that we don't do this digital stuff for the digital stuff, but that is a moment that allows people, humans, to encounter and and engage not just that content, but then one another along the way.
[19:22] Hmm. So when you kind of talk about that and talking about how we can, can gather, you know, especially I think in our age and time, we're talking a lot about loneliness and sometimes people talk about how that, again, social media can kind of make that worse. How can this sense of presence actually make that better?
[19:50] Yeah, well, I think it's just a reminder that even if you're by yourself, you're not alone, which sometimes is the biggest solidarity people need. You can feel like, is there anyone out there who thinks like me, you know, understands like me? And it's where, you know, this thing can become, I'm holding my phone for anyone listening, can become this, you know, way, this portal to engage and connect with others who actually validate and empathize and can reflect who you are in the world and say who you are is good. I remember ages ago, there was a kid in Idaho, a young gay teenager who lived in some conservative town and was like, I don't have anyone around me. And then this was back in the days of Twitter. And it was through like progressive Christian Twitter. He's like, there's people like me. And he found Christians who loved and affirmed him. I got to meet him once when he was on a trip to New York back when I still lived there. So it was even this great moment of like, from, you know, 140 characters back when it used to be that, to then sitting across from a coffee table. And to And to me, those are both being present, the tweets, the comments, those interactions, and then sitting across the table. They're different forms of presence, and I don't want to say one is better than the other or one is more real than the other, because they are both very real encounters we had.
[21:09] The goal isn't to be like, this is a funnel of first you do the online thing, and then eventually we get you in the room. It's like, no, we just want to meet you where you are with whatever your needs currently are and remind you you're not alone. There are people who are with you. So how can everything always have that, not an angle of like, you know, churches are often angling like, give us money, come to church on Sunday. But to me, it's just how can we just be present with one another in whatever that means? So like little things at Riverside, a couple of things we have started to do with our online congregation specifically, Communion Sundays, we now, when communion is happening in the room, people can go on Zoom and we take communion together during the live broadcast just in our own little Zoom space. And there's, you know, two to three dozen people who are there. It lasts for about five minutes, but it's probably my most favorite thing I get to do in my entire job in those five minutes a month. And it's incredibly meaningful for all of us from across the country, around the world even, to have a moment of recognizing we're all sitting in our own places. But for this moment, we realize in a deeper way how present and connected we are with one another. And then similarly, after worship, we have virtual coffee hour, which is a thing a lot of churches do, which is great. But for us, that's a way of saying, you know, the point to this wasn't to just consume worship, to watch it like a TV show, but to be present and engage one another. So it's just creating even the opportunities for that to happen.
[22:35] No one's going to show up to coffee hour if there's no space with coffee being served. No one's going to come to the virtual Zoom thing if there's no virtual Zoom thing and someone there to host it and welcome it and foster a community there. So it's just always having that mindfulness towards the people and the ways that we can be present with one another yeah you know one of the things i've also heard and i think this is interesting and and how you talk about this with communion i mean even with the coffee hour um it's kind of the danger or at least they would say the problem is that you know the things like communion these experiences have to be embodied, um and and talk about physicality and you're talking about this from a kind of.
[23:23] That there's a shared experience um almost similar to let's say the only thing that comes to mind right now is something like let's say the final episode of mash yeah that was a shared experience but it wasn't and necessarily a quote-unquote embodied experience um is that kind of what you're kind of getting at when and and how do you deal with that that kind of criticism that you know of the importance of embodied versus kind of a, i don't want to say virtual but a different kind of shared mutuality, Yeah, well, I would say it's still embodied. I still have a body on my side of the screen. So the thing I'm watching might be, you know, pixels and ones and zeros and my whatever I'm watching it on, but I still get to encounter it as a person. You know, I firmly believe that there's no such thing as in-person versus online dichotomy because we're all persons. If I'm watching online, I'm still in person. I'm just in a different location.
[24:27] To say in-person versus online seems seem to disvalidate the personhood of the person who's not in the room. We all have an embodied experience. It might not be as controlled to be the same embodied experience. And I think that's a thing you just have to have in mind when you're creating it. So like when we do communion, we invite people to bring whatever they have in their home. And then we have people hold it up on screen or put it in the chat. What is the potluck buffet table of communion we're sharing today.
[24:54] And that kind of moment even adds another kind of connection. You get to know someone in another way. What did you bring from your home? What do you have? That tells me something about you. And then I still get to do something with my physicality. We're not just saying, now reflect on what it might feel like to eat something. No, no, eat something. Get your Lar Bar out and put it in your mouth. Take a drink of coffee. Have the embodied experience to recognize the food that sustains you is reminding you of the god who sustains you the the drink that nourishes you so it's it's i i i'm definitely not trying to say it's the same embodied experience but it's still an embodied experience we're not turning into disembodied robots who are just having and i would also we could go to argue well what does it mean to for something to be real you know it's all just sensations in our brain anyway um so i when i I feel something. Am I really feeling it? Or is a nerve signal sending an electronic signal into my head? So technically it's all electronic signals. That's embodiment. Is it a myth? I know I'm getting too far into a deep end that I know nothing about, but yeah.
[25:59] Well, that's probably getting a bit more existential, but yeah. Yeah.
[26:05] That's okay. I probably would read to read more Foucault or some other kind of philosopher about that.
[26:15] So, you know, the other thing that you have lifted up, and it's the final thing that you talk about, which is actually the first, but it's the airstream, which is kind of the portability of being church. Church and how much you know i think this is very common in our culture is that we tend to think of church not as as much as a people as a building yeah and and you lift up what's interesting if you and love to talk here you talk about this a little bit more about the fact that you know what is how that's similar to what the israelites faced which was early on they had a a tabernacle, which was a portable place that they came to God and that, got into a little bit of a problem when they stopped using the tabernacle.
[27:07] Yeah. And let's be honest, the stories of a wandering people with a tent to a settled people with a temple to an exiled people, you know, wondering where their center is. Those are really just the evolutions of society, you know, as people were tribal and moving to more city-based and growing and then, you know, empires. So some of it's inevitable. It's not like they made a conscious, you know, choice of like one to the other. It was just the waters that they were in. But I think it's interesting what we notice and the particular fixation Christians especially seem to have on our buildings. And the bigger the steeple, the better the ministry or something. But the point being, you know, there was definitely, we see within the Hebrew scriptures, there was this proclivity to want to do away with the tabernacle and to have the temple. David was very big. I want to build the temple. Oh, you can't. Your son Solomon's going to do it because you killed too many people. Okay. Interesting stories.
[28:00] At what point did they lose the essence of it? You know, I think when you have the thing that can go wherever you need to go, the flexibility, the tent, the Airstream. My wife and I used to live in an Airstream for a year before the pandemic took over the world. You can go things. You're not bound by a building or a static location, but you can flow where the spirit is blowing. Once you put something into the ground or the foundation, you're kind of stuck there. And then you're in maintaining the thing. I've heard people, I don't even know who I first heard this from. Someone can Google it to find out who all invented it. But often things kind of have this rhythm of a, what is it, a movement, a machine, and a monument. It might start as a movement. There's this energy of we're doing something, it's going someplace. A guy saying, you know, I've come to set the prisoners free and the captives and give sight to the blind and, you know, spend time with the outcast and the untouchable. He gets his 12 friends and a bunch of unnamed women and they all start having this movement that's going someplace. And then, you might turn it into a machine, which isn't a bad thing. You got to have a way to maintain the thing that you started. So you get deacons and elders and ways to make sure the orphans and widows are fed and cared for. And you build seminaries and all those things. But then the danger is that it becomes a monument and you're just living in the shadow of your past. And you're just like, remember when we used to do this, which a lot of churches right there, is it remember when?
[29:23] Even at Riverside in the past year, we've shifted how we talk about ourselves. We're no longer the a historic Riverside church. We want to be the history-making Riverside church. We don't want to talk about ourselves as if our best days are behind us, but we're still doing them today. So I think there's just this movement machine monument rhythm we can fall into. And the question is, how do you always avoid the monument, but rekindle the movement? And anytime there's a building, you're running the risk of just literally working to keep the lights on. So I think to me, I see the movement in scripture where you could even say the temple wasn't the solution because that thing got tore down. But when it got tore down, does that mean God was done with the whole thing? Of course not. God was with the people in exile. They even ended up turning the thing into the Torah, the book. They ended up going to this oral and written centering. So it was no longer the building that bound us, but this idea that could be transported. And so all of this geeky Bible rant, is to say digital ministry values the thing that can be fluid and flexible and go where the people are. We're not trying to put it in one static location, but we're trying to just be attuned to where might God be moving. And it seems like these digital things just make it a little bit easier to follow those leanings and inklings and intuitions and to take those brave steps forward wherever they might be.
[30:46] What do you think though is a challenge of doing that of of of being kind of a church that is on the move um because i think that that that can also be a bit scary, Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And my immediate thought is leaving people behind or people feeling like they can't keep going. And we shouldn't just force everyone to always be on the move. Again, incarnational presence is being where people are. And some people need to be in a place. But that to me is the beauty of the tabernacle. It wasn't like disposable. It could endure. It was a structure. Go read the book of Exodus, Leviticus, all the chapters and instructions on building that thing. They thought that thing through to no end. I mean, really, the temple was the same thing, just with a deeper foundation, more or less. There's probably more to it than that. But I think the danger, if you're always on the move, is that you will wear people out. You will leave people behind. Your ministry will always be looking at what's next rather than where you are now. So I think the past is important. I got a rearview mirror back here on my shelf. I did a sermon about it once. months, but the whole idea is, you know, rearview mirrors are important, but they're not the whole point. You know, if you spend your whole time driving, staring at the rearview mirror, you're probably going to run into something, but you probably want one. To know where you're going, it's helpful to know where you've been. The past is helpful to remind us how we can continue to move forward. And I think the same is true of ministry. Really, digital ministry isn't trying to do a new thing. It's just trying to do ministry in the present.
[32:15] It's just ministry. It's not this like subset of ministry. It's just ministry with where and how people are in the world today. And the minute you're not doing ministry where and how people are in the world today, I don't know if you're doing ministry anymore, or at least you're doing some sort of outdated, antiquated version, which might still be meeting people, but it's not meeting all the people. So, and I like to think any pastor who uses email is a digital minister because you're using email, you're digital. So it's, it's a part of our life. Just, we're not, we're not trying to to say the physical stuff is bad, but how do we just recognize the need to always be where the people are? And what is it that's holding us back or restraining us from even opening ourselves up to the ways we might do that? Both for the people we are currently serving and for the people who we might be called to serve. Let's be honest, the church doesn't seem to be on this up and to the right growth trajectory. It's kind of this like, where are we headed existential crisis? We have more pastors than we do congregations in some denominations. So I think we need to ask ourselves, are we just waiting for them to show up to the pulpits of the past, or are we ready to step into the pulpits of the future and the pulpits of the present?
[33:32] So one of the things that you've talked about is the kind of the.
[33:38] Advantages of churches having a digital minister, someone that is basically kind of intentional in having digital ministry in a church of some type. What does that look like for people who might not be aware of that? Yeah. I think it really is similar to hiring a youth pastor, hiring a social justice pastor. It's someone with a specialization who doesn't do the work so you don't have to, but models it and helps invite all of us to do it together. It's not the youth pastor's job to know all the names of the teenagers. That tends to be what happens though, which is a problem. It's the youth pastor's job to help lead the entire congregation into an intergenerational ministry. It's the social justice pastor's job to invite all of us to participate in the justice initiatives in and around us. And I think it's the same for me. I see my role. I see this amongst others I work with. I have a particular focus. I give a particular lens and care to people who can't come to the building. So they're primarily remote or online. But I do it in a way that then hopefully models to my colleagues, my other clergy colleagues, what they can and should be doing. What is their digital ministry expression? I don't do digital ministry, so they don't have to. it's more like I'm, I'm exploring what might be possible and coming back with the, have you tried this? And I'm like an internal consultant to help them find the expressions in their spaces.
[35:06] One of the things that I've always have been fascinated by is how different parts of Christianity deal with, especially communications in general, but also social media. Um.
[35:20] And having grown up and come from an evangelical background, that has always seemed to be a strong suit. I don't know if it still is today, but it seems to be. Whereas I think in more mainline slash progressive circles, that hasn't been. Why do you think that is, and how do you improve that? Oh, can you answer that one? That's a big one.
[35:50] Yeah i know it's but you know it's just something that i noticed especially yeah even during um after covid i think a lot of more mainline churches kind of just, slid back into what they used to do um yeah and it seems like not noticing that things may have changed um yeah some of that might be the demographics that make up our population tribulation. Some of it is just what we value and centering ourselves around a particularity of tradition and the way we've done things. And there's nothing wrong with tradition. It's not saying we shouldn't have it, but it's saying, why do we do it? Like, look at the Episcopals. The Book of Common Prayer is the core of a lot of how they gather in practice. You can have a lot of theological bickerings and differences, but they're going to have some grounding and centering. I mean, part of it, I think, is the more evangelical side of Christianity has often seen, I think they've seen the internet as the new frontier for evangelism.
[36:51] So they would pioneer their way into it. And I use that word with all of its horrible colonization connotations. They would pioneer their way into the internet, get huge funders to make the best looking websites and to hire big teams and staffs. Because for them, what's at risk is, you know, everyone going to hell. They want to save souls, to get everyone out of Earth, to go up to Heaven. We don't care what happens here. We just want to go there. It's like spaceship theology, I would say.
[37:14] Beam me up, Jesus. But I think the main line, the progressive, we haven't always had the best looking websites. We value, why would I use the money to update the website when I could use this money to feed someone or to empower someone to get out of whatever situation that they're chronically stuck in? So we've done, our focus has been on how do we then do this good in the world? And I've always thought, can you have good theology and a good website? I think so. You don't have to have just shitty theology and good websites. I think you can have both. And I think the same is true of just how we use the internet in general.
[37:47] We don't know what it is or how to use it. And I think that's where I would hope we're not trying to use it as a new frontier for evangelism. It's not this like, now we can just reach out so you believe the right thing to go to the right place, or it's just a marketing tool of come to our church to fill our seats so our pastor can have a bigger mansion or whatever. It's how do we have that sense of being incarnationally present with people. I think the mainlines and progressives have always done that well. We've done it in the way that we're most used to, which is in a physical shared space mentality. And I would hope we can understand that these online opportunities are opportunities for that same mutual presence that we can share with one another, which are just as lifesaving in some in some situations as the work we do for justice locally among us.
[38:36] Yeah, it's been interesting here, I mean, we've had people who have showed up at my church where I pastor, and it's been interesting, one of the ways that they found out about us is through our website, but also watching our videos on YouTube, and that has led me to think that this, you know.
[39:01] It's not like I have a lot of big followings on our YouTube page, but obviously someone is watching. And that there is an importance for that, that sometimes we don't always think about or think that it's of little value. But I think there are people who are looking for a place, especially in our context, especially what they're looking for is an inclusive place, And they are able to learn a little bit more about who we are from our website and from our YouTube to see that. And so that always is a reminder for me that there is some value in this, even if it doesn't look like it or if it seems like a waste of time, it's not.
[39:49] And it's not just the video and the website was what drew them in. And now they might not have known about you without it, so it serves a purpose, but it does more than that. I think someone who has been able to encounter who you are, who your community is through those online things, have a sense of connection already, when they do, if they're able, walk into the building in the same physical space, their connection is immediately deepened because it's like, oh, this is the place. I've already caught a scent of what it is and now I'm here rather than the first time skeptical. Spectacle, what's going on here, it just allows for a different type of connection and presence from the start, rather than trying to move towards that hopefully and eventually.
[40:36] So I know that you have a heart out, actually I do too, you have little ones to take care of. But I did want to let you talk a little bit about your, you're doing kind of a series on theology of digital ministry and would love to have you share that so that others can know. Yeah, that is as I have time to edit videos ending up on YouTube. So I think it's just youtube.com slash digital minister. If you look up Rev Jim Keat, you'll probably find it, but it's all there. Or go to jimkeat.com. That's usually where a lot of my projects kind of stem from or at least are findable. But I'm trying to just make these kinds of resources available. I think it's helpful to learn in public and to fail in public and to learn from one another. So that's really what I'm trying to explore and to do. I have a unique privilege at Riverside to give a lot of dedicated time and attention to this area. And I think it'd be a waste if I didn't share some of the things I'm stumbling upon and the spaghetti that's sticking against the wall and the way that I'm processing it. Not that everyone needs to then do what I'm doing or be Riverside. That's never been the point. But it's how can we learn from one another so we learn from one another so we can all be the best versions of ourselves that we can be. So that hopefully maybe this conversation will hold me accountable to edit those other videos that I have sitting here on a hard drive. But there'll be more coming regularly. Part of that, I'm doing different webinars. So the webinars were supposed to kind of keep me on task to then turn the stuff. So the webinars are there.
[42:05] Convergence is where those are coming out of. So convergenceus.org, sign up for the email list and you'll get all the info on those. Or just find me online wherever you can and say, hey, where's the webinar? And I'll shoot you the info. But I like to give this stuff away however I can. And you also have a substat that that has these videos. These are the things that I need to do more of. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming back on and I hope to have you again to talk a little bit more about the ways that we can use the digital
[42:38] world to continue to be a Christlike presence in our world. Anytime Dennis. So great to be with you. All right. Take care.
[42:46] Music.
[43:20] So I hope that you enjoyed that conversation with Jim. I'm hoping to have him back again sometime very soon. And if you're ever interested in, if you have any kind of questions, comments about the interview, drop me a line, send an email to churchinmaineatsubstack.com. There are a whole lot of notes, show notes that I've put into this podcast. So I have links to Jim's Substack, to his YouTube channel, also links to his prior episode, to Ryan Dunn's episode, and also an episode actually from a while back from Ryan Panzer, who is also someone that talks a lot about digital ministry. So I hope that you will take advantage of those links and check them out. So if you want to learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes, check us out at churchinmaine.org.
[44:22] I also have a sub stack. I do try to put things up there that are related articles, things that I have written. So I hope that you will check out the sub stack as well. That's churchinmaine.substack.com. Also consider subscribing to the podcast you can do that on your favorite podcast app and I hope that you would consider leaving a review.
[44:50] Um, either that or, or leaving a rating, um, whichever one that you have time for. If you do that, it helps others find the podcasts and that would be a lot of help to me. And related to that, if you can, please, if you listen to this episode, consider, uh, sharing it, share it in an email, share it on social media. Um, I'd like to get the word out a little bit more, um, about the podcast. So if you can do that, if you're someone that is a regular listener, I would be very, happy and honored if you could do that. So that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I do want to just say one note of thank you for those who have been listening over the last three and a half years of the podcast.
[45:36] And hopefully I will be doing more episodes to come. I do have others in the can, but just that I'm looking forward to hopefully the next 200 episodes. So, again, thank you so much for taking the time to listen. Thank you for liking episodes, if you've done that, on Facebook and checking out the Facebook page. I just want to say thanks for everyone for their support over the last few years and look forward to many more years ahead. head. So again, that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. As I always like to say, thank you so much for listening. And I do really mean that. Take care, Godspeed, and see you very soon.
[46:31] Music.
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