In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. and I discuss President Biden's surprising exit from the 2024 race and his endorsement of Vice President Kamala Harris. We then touch on navigating cognitive decline in loved ones and highlight the significance of supportive relationships in guiding individuals through transitions and tough decisions. Emphasizing the role of faith communities in addressing societal challenges, we promote empathy and understanding in navigating transitions gracefully.
Suggested Reading and Listening:
My husband was slowing down. He needed protecting. by Sally Quinn
Donate: Venmo- @churchandmainpod |TipTopJar- https://tiptopjar.com/electricparson
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/churchandmain
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/churchandmainpod/
Threads: https://www.threads.net/@churchandmainpod
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@churchmainpodcast
Website: https://churchandmain.org/
[0:21] Music.
[0:57] We'll see you next time. Thank you. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Church in Maine, and a podcast for people interested at the intersection of faith and our modern world. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Well, we all thought that this might happen. In fact, we had a feeling it was going to happen at some point, but that still made it shocking when it did happen. Of course, I am talking about the fact of Joe Biden, President Joe Biden, leaving the presidential race. I got the news around 1 p.m. Central Time, and he released a letter on Twitter announcing that he was leaving the presidential race. And then maybe several minutes later, another announcement came up across that he had endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris to take his place. I got a text a few hours later from my colleague and fellow podcaster, Lauren Richmond Jr., and he wanted to talk about this, really talk about a related issue to this, and that is knowing when it's time to step aside.
[2:06] Now, the issues surrounding Joe Biden and his apparent cognitive decline is really a story that many families face. We can talk about this as a political issue but it's also a family issue and so uh lauren really wanted to talk about this he um talked wanted to talk about how it's happening in his own life and we also talked about how churches can respond so um as i said this is kind of a wide-ranging conversation we talk initially about the presidential race and then move into this discussion about dealing with aging parents. So let's listen in to this conversation with Lauren Richmond Jr.
[2:50] Music.
[3:28] Well, hey, Lauren, thank you for coming on. This has kind of been thrown together all at the last moment. I know in some political pods, they kind of call this an emergency podcast, and this is kind of that.
[3:44] So, some people actually have been talking about that this might happen this weekend, and I wasn't too certain this was going to happen. Um but i'd love to get your um thoughts about um biden stepping out of the race and and what did this all mean and how what are your first thoughts and reactions to all of it yeah obviously, quite surprised i was sitting in church and my phone started buzzing so you know i'm trying to Like, it was actually a pretty good sermon by the pastor, so I was trying to, like, ignore it. And then I looked, and I'm like, oh my goodness, I want to tell my wife. So, it was certainly surprise and shock, but also, I should say, like, surprise, but not shocked, but still, wow.
[4:39] Yeah, it kind of felt like we knew that this was coming, or at least might be coming at some point. Right. Um, it just, but still when it, um, I was out, um, it was after church and having a lunch with my husband and I just kind of saw it crossover. I actually saw it first on Twitter, but I'm immediately when I see something on Twitter, I'm a little skeptical. Right. But then saw the news brief from, um, on my phone and it was like, this is real. Yeah. And just kind of knew it was happening, but still was surprising that it happened.
[5:20] What do you think is going to be happening moving forward? I mean, I've been following on threads and just scanning the Apple news on my phone quite a lot throughout the day. And it seems like there's a lot of unity around Harris. I imagine in the days, maybe weeks, but probably days, there'll be some opportunity for dissension. But it does seem like whether I've heard different theories, whether that be like the rallying around Harris, because they know it's the least kind of legally tenuous option, option. B, I think another theory I heard was Biden basically said, I'm going to drop out, but it has to be Harris. So there's some different theories. It certainly makes the most sense, I would think, practically speaking, to say like, hey, we have to go with Harris, and there's just not enough time to do anything else. Yeah, I think...
[6:30] It's kind of funny, personally, she's not my favorite, but I think looking at this from a objective viewpoint, with the amount of time that they have before now and the convention, I don't think that they have a huge amount of time to try to decide. Right. And to me, I think the more important thing is who do you get to balance out the ticket? Yeah, yeah. And, um, and I think, you know, well, I don't think she's the strongest candidate. She's also been vice president for the last four years. So I'm hoping she was paying attention over the, been taking notes over those last four years. And I think, again, if they can get a strong vice presidential candidate that can make her appealing and hopefully gain some votes, there might be a chance. So, can we stay here for a minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I'm hearing, you know, I've heard different things like Mark Kelly from Arizona, Disciple Zone, Andy, how do you even say his name? I don't know, I should, Bashar? Bashir. Bashir. I should know that. Forgive me, disciple friends. I know. Kentucky Governor Wright.
[7:52] Who else? Shapiro from Pennsylvania. Shapiro from Pennsylvania. Cooper Wright from North Carolina. Dwight Cooper from North Carolina. There's some talk that I've seen about Buttigieg, but I don't really think that'd be a good option. No, I don't think so either. So I think, I mean, let's be frank, like Biden is doing this because he thinks, you know, Trump not winning is the most important thing. So if we're thinking about what's the most important for Trump not to win, I think you have to pick someone from a swing state like Shapiro or Kelly. I mean, maybe Cooper, but I don't, I think, I personally think, I mean, Shapiro would be an obvious choice just because Pennsylvania is so important. I think Shapiro's the obvious choice because it's probably the main swing state that you need. Right. The Democrats really can't win the White House without it. But he's somewhat of a moderate, which I think can appeal to people. I think he is young. I think he was 70. So he's like 51. Mm-hmm. Which actually would finally put someone in my generation in the White House.
[9:18] But that one would be the most, I think, most realistic. I think Bashir has some good talent. I mean, obviously, he's been able to win twice in a very red state, which is... I mean, do you think he's going to carry Kentucky?
[9:36] No, he would not carry... Do you think Bashir on the ticket is going to carry, I mean, Ohio's red, essentially red these days, is he going to carry Wisconsin or Michigan, just his presence? I don't think he's that big of a name. I think it would, you know, when I, people had talked about picking J.D. Vance, and I had said that in both the announcement from Trump and from, in listening to Vance's speech, he kept mentioning a few states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, I think Wisconsin and Minnesota. He was trying that's why he was picked is because he was going to pick up those dates and i think that the democrats that would have to pick up pick someone that is going to be attracted to those swing states and of all of those people um it would have to be um shapiro yeah i want to second your point i know this is popular in a left-leaning context but there really needs to be someone on the ticket who's centrist uh i know that's an unpopular opinion amongst progressives like like aoc not a good choice um someone of that not a good choice um.
[10:59] Whether it's fair or not you know for some reason the right in trump has really been successful in painting Biden as a leftist. And to some extent, I think Biden over the last months has sort of responded to that critique. The thing that comes to mind is certainly his immigration, some of his immigration policies. There's something else I'm blanking on, But there's been some efforts by the Biden administration to kind of move centrist, which I think is implicitly a response to this critique, fair or not, that he's perceived as, or at least his actions, are perceived as too far left. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think sometimes he may have actually gone a little bit more, still pushing left.
[12:07] But I think having someone on the ticket that is more centrist can blunt some criticisms against Harris because they will come. Um, um, and partially because she is, I think far more progressive, um, than, than Biden. So you're going to need someone that can buy, that can balance the ticket that can maybe blunt some criticism, not all criticism, but some criticism.
[12:40] Um, I'm kind of surprised that there would be people that would want to have another progressive on the ticket. Because it's kind of like, have you been paying attention these last few months? Well, this was going to be a podcast episode of ours, you know, Dennis, that I'm not sure many on the left are paying attention, which I think is the biggest problem. So this kind of gets pushed aside a bit since Biden is stepping down because there's kind of this idea that like, you know, the Democrats were going to lose in 2024 in the November election. And then it was just going to be, oh, it's because Biden was too old. Well, I guess we're kind of getting a reset on that. And we're going to get a chance to see, like, do the Democrats simply think the only problem is that Biden is too old? Or is there some realization that their message is not resonating with enough middle Americans? I mean...
[13:39] I'm sort of shocked and perplexed that people can see that the Republican National Convention holding mass deportation signs now and just like not bat an eye at that, which kind of has me horrified. But also, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I'm perplexed and at a loss. Well, I'm wary about seeing that, but I can also, well, I can also understand because there have been a lot of, there have been some polls that have said that a majority of Americans support that because I think that they are frustrated that there hasn't really been any type of way of controlling the immigration at the southern border.
[14:25] And this is, again, this is anecdotal for me, but I have a cousin when I was in Michigan recently, back home in Michigan, was talking about the fact that something that he was in need of, but that I guess the thing about giving benefits to people who have requested asylum and are kind of waiting and all of that. So I think that there is a lot of anger in the public that there hasn't really been anything done to kind of curb this. I don't think that mass deportation is the answer, but I can understand why people, I can understand it in some way, the anger.
[15:16] I'm going to say this and choose my words carefully here, I guess. I'm certainly more progressive than you or left than you on many political issues. In seminary, I took a study trip to the border. So I very much have a soft spot in my heart for folks who are just trying to come and get a better life for themselves. That being said, I live in the Denver Metro, and the Denver Metro, really, this summer, spring, summer, has really been.
[16:00] Good evidence of like at some point there really aren't any more resources to go around like there's there's not enough money there's not enough housing like sure are there more resources available in theory yes but like within the within the resources available within the tools available Like, Denver really found themselves completely tapped out and cutting some city budget items around the edges to try to make up for some shortfalls. So there really is a challenge.
[16:42] And I think that's one of the limitations from the left does not address is, yes, we can say, especially from a faith perspective, that we can talk about abundance and welcome. And that's true. And I think, again, probably differently than you, that tax policy could add to the budget and help address many of these issues. But in the short term, there is not enough resources and Denver does not have enough housing as it is for the residents here. So I don't want to be unwelcoming. I don't want to label and blame immigrants or asylum seekers, migrants as the enemy. I mean, I don't want to dehumanize them. I can totally understand someone in desperation trying to seek something better for the family. But I think it does help or would be helpful to have a realistic conversation about what the actual scope of the scenario is, rather than talking about, oh, there's plenty of resources. Well, there may be, but we're not going to get to those resources anytime soon. Well, and I think, you know...
[18:04] As a person of faith i do have a hard time that's where i i don't like i get the the horror about the whole seeing signs about mass deportation because i think that that's not that's not the best way of handling this um plus i don't even know if it's realistic to do that but it's but i think it's speaking to a deeper problem and is that you know we haven't really had a really a good, immigration policy. And I think that that's a problem on both sides, because I think, on the left, there has been kind of a unwillingness to really have any type of a policy or to really say, have any type of immigration control. And the right, I think, has been rather cynical in wanting the issue, but not trying to solve it. And I think we have to find ways of trying to solve that issue. And I think sometimes especially the church has not been helpful in that because at least in the neighborhood that we're in, in progressive churches, because we kind of just kind of say, well, Jesus welcomed a stranger. And it's like, I agree with that. That is important.
[19:25] But that also doesn't mean that we just have a policy where we have no policy or just say, well, anyone can come for a lot of different reasons, you know, resources. We don't have, you know, a lot of this is placing a burden on cities and states. And that's a lot. And so how do you deal with that? How do we also even deal with some national security? And I'm not I'm not saying that every potential immigrant is a threat. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying sometimes that people can come in who do not mean well. So how do you deal with that? And how do we as people of faith deal with that policy and not just kind of either say, you know, we're not going to have an immigration policy at all, or we have to kick the foreigners out, which neither of which I think are helpful. Yeah, I would still certainly, and certainly we have some disagreement on this issue, which is fine. You know, I would certainly lean to one of welcoming and hospitality.
[20:36] Obviously, I would contextualize that with reality that there are within context so many resources go around. So we have to be somewhat judicious while I think perhaps... Considering how, again, speaking from a faith perspective, how might we be able to be more welcoming and hospitable? But I suppose we're kind of getting off topic here, maybe. Well, sort of. But I think it's an important issue to talk about. And I don't know if we're that far apart on this. I think we both see the importance of immigration. It's not a, you know, don't have immigration at all or open borders. I think it's really the question of how do we manage that? And I think the problem is, is that I don't really feel that our leaders have been doing a good job on either at all, period. Yeah. It seems like we are living in a time where there's less motivation for good faith efforts and instead just opportunity for grandstanding.
[21:56] Mm-hmm. No, and I agree with that. There is no such thing as a good faith effort anymore. Everything is always bad. But I guess, you know, one probably final question before we kind of move on a little bit to something related is, you know, where do you see all of this?
[22:21] How do you see the faith community handling all of this? And, you know, we kind of talked a little bit about it with, you know, the vice presidential pick or immigration, but how do you see faith communities? How do we, as people of faith, handle this, and how can we be supportive of whatever candidate we're choosing without...
[22:47] I'm just going to say it, without being assholes.
[22:52] Well, it's funny when I was waiting for you to send me the link here, for I was just surfing YouTube and seeing a trailer for the next God's Not Dead. And of course, it's like painting this, whoever the protagonist there is, like this savior of humanity, savior of Christianity, and like the evil, godless Democrats. So, gosh, I mean, I think those are both caricatured both ways from either side of the... Anybody who's a Republican is obviously a Christian nationalist. Anybody who's a Democrat is obviously a godless communist, atheist, whatever.
[23:30] And I wish there was more nuance and context. So, I guess, I mean, I think it has to start just with prayer and humility. I know those are hard to come by. I'm going to certainly pray about, I mean, I prayed. I mean, when I saw the news on my phone this morning, I immediately said a prayer. And I'm going to keep praying. And I think, I mean, I can't remember where I heard this, but I think there's a lot of truth that when we pray for our enemies, like we don't necessarily become best friends with them but we develop a recognition of their humanity hmm hmm.
[24:23] Well, that's an important thing, I think, that we need to hear today, because we aren't always good about that.
[24:31] But I wanted to move on. You wanted, when we were talking about this, to talk about an issue that is related to this. Obviously, one of the reasons that Joe Biden decided to pull out of the presidential race is because of concerns concerning age. But it's not really as much age as it is how he's aging and certain issues like cognitive decline. And if you are of a certain age, we all at some point have a parent that we have to deal with that is dealing with those issues that are not kind of what they once were. And you wanted to talk a little bit about kind of knowing when it's time to kind of hang up or to leave things or to step aside. So I thought I would let you kind of talk a little bit about that and kind of even some of your own concerns and own experiences that you were dealing with. Yeah, so I found it kind of comical throughout the last couple months.
[25:51] When like both sides really were like critiquing the age and physical limitations of the other, like it's kind of like, don't you all see what you're doing? I mean, for as much as Biden has taken criticism over the last several months, it's like from Republicans, it's like, Republicans, do you see what you're doing? I mean, look at- Yeah, it's not like Trump was about enough youth. You know, it was, maybe it was later, maybe it was like February, March, April, where I felt like there was more like, oh, Trump is this, you know, is struggling in his own right. And again, I was thinking, Democrats, do you know what you're doing here?
[26:37] So I found it quite perplexing, is again a way to say it. But it got me thinking, our conversation here and certainly about this topic, it got me thinking about, I recently had to have a difficult conversation with my parents. My dad is 72 i don't even know to be honest 72 73 he's been he's been dealing with parkinson's he was diagnosed about two three years ago really about three years too late in all honesty, um so obviously like being on medicine has really like.
[27:15] Slowed the decline thank thank god um but it's still it's still pretty scary i mean i was i was I was over there, well, a couple of times, obviously recently, but, uh, one recent time and I just like, man, this is, it's scary. It's, it's really scary. And I remember having a conversation with my wife one night when we were trying to get to sleep and she said, you know, are we, are you ready for, um, to have a conversation about your parents passing away? I said, no, I'm not.
[27:43] Um, so it's a Dennis, I know you're, you're, you're right there. You've been, been there and, and.
[27:51] My condolences and my heart goes out to you because just being on this other side of it, I can only imagine what it's like to be on the other side. So may God's peace be with you as you continue to, you and your families, you continue to mourn and grieve and process all this. So I, my mom was, it was like Denver had a hot streak like the whole country did as we're recording this a week, two weeks ago, I can't remember. And it was going to be that weekend, like 100, 101, 102, back to back to back. And my mom serves at a food pantry. And Monday of the week, when I saw the forecast, I said, mom, you need to cancel because it's outside. It's outside for three, four, five, six hours. I said, mom, you need to cancel. Monday, I said, mom, you need to cancel. No, I can't cancel. So Friday morning comes around, I'm worried sick, worried sick, praying, worried sick.
[28:49] I'm just like she's gonna end up at the hospital today so you know i go to bed i called her like at night oh i'm fine i'm like great okay i was wrong i'm great sure enough like next morning i had to call for my sister like oh yeah mom went to the hospital at 2 a.m last night, and it was nobody knows it was probably heat related sort of uh heat allergic reaction Because again, it was like 100 degrees all day.
[29:17] And so my mom's doing this food pantry, good ministry, which she loves. My dad is serving a very small Baptist church and still, to be frank, fruitful in ministry. He just baptized a couple people, I think, recently. I mean, how many churches, Dennis, do we know who have not baptized anybody for years? Uh obviously he has a different uh evangelistical evangelical focus than some of our disciples friends or mainline friends but still right um.
[29:50] But it's just like a, I remember when they, when this stuff first became real for me, I just became frustrated with how seemingly impossible it was to speak truth to my parents. And I told one of my good friends here in town, I said, I said, if you know me in 30 years, like I need you to speak truth to me,
[30:12] like, please speak truth to me. And it just struck me like thinking about this like it seems like whether it was obama whether it was some other democratic leaders like biden was in a place where he had people in his life who could speak truth to him and he could listen to them because i think for my parents i don't know if they have really anybody in their life who will speak truth to them and i i did that gently last week where I sat down with them and said, hey, I love you. I want you guys to be around for 10 more years for my kids. I complimented their ministry and their faithfulness and said, you guys are an example to me, to my family, to your family, but we need to think about wrapping it up. It doesn't have to be tomorrow. It doesn't have to be next week, but I gave them a rough time frame. I said, I think a year, nine months, 13 months, but it needs to be.
[31:13] Sooner than later. And I remember, I can't remember, I couldn't find the actual title of the book, Dennis, but I think it came from a Jeff Henderson, who's an evangelical author and pastor, But I have a recollection of him writing a book about something about last lap or something to that extent, using that metaphor of kind of knowing when your time is coming. I think that's so difficult for leaders, and I think we see it right in clergy and pastoral leaders. Mm-hmm.
[31:52] So, I mean, kind of from your experience, I mean, how do you have that conversation to tell people it's time to step aside or time for help? Yeah. Especially if someone, you know, go ahead. Yeah, I use the nonviolent communication kind of framework, the Marshall Rosenberg, where it's like you observe, you share your feelings. And I'm already forgetting the second half of it. The four steps, observe, share feelings, make requests, or it's need and then request, I think. Something to that extent. But that's basically what I said. I said, you know, I'm observing mom and dad that you seem to be in the hospital a lot. Like, it seems in my... I'm laughing rather than crying, right? Right. Um, you know, I, I said, it makes me feel nervous and scared. And like I said, I said, I want you all to be around for my children for at least 10 more years. And I said, uh, can we, can we figure something out here? So that's, I was surprised about how well they received it, frankly.
[33:14] Um, but also I think it would help if there was a peer, not their son or child, you know? Though the thing is, is that it's probably more often than not going to be a son or a child or a son-in-law or something like that. It's going to be people because sometimes the peer may not always see the same things either or might not be in the same place. To say that, um, so, I mean, again, I guess that tracks right with what we're talking about nationally with, it seems like the reporting was right that Jill Biden was supportive of, of Joe and it seems like it was not necessarily peers, but it was, I mean, I guess Pelosi is a peer, right? But I mean, again, if reporting is accurate, it was Barack Obama and other. And again, I think I don't know the. So I guess I guess I'm just thankful that in this instance, it appears that Biden had the humility to listen, which is thankfully, I think I think my parents have had that humility. and.
[34:37] It's important. Yeah. You know, I think the other thing though is in this situation is that I think ultimately he did have, Biden did have the humility, but I also think early on, it's kind of like, I think I heard someone on the radio kind of talk about, you know, it's almost like you're going through the different stages of grief. Yeah. And I think early on, he did not want to accept that. He didn't want to accept that, you know, the polls were saying you're slipping. Being, you know, he was very much, you know, things are fine. And I think there might've been people around him that said that too, but it wasn't until maybe a point that he finally just could not, basically all the things that he kind of had around him that could kind of shield him from that reality just didn't work anymore. And he had to accept this is happening.
[35:31] This is where the correlation of ministry and pastoral ministry really comes together because what Biden has been in public service for 50 years, right? 50 years. Yeah. 50 years. You know, my dad has been in ministry at least 40 and there was about, there was a seven year when I was a, when I was a, when I was a kid, we moved from New York city where he was a pastor and for seven years he wasn't a pastor. So I had a little conversation with him just the other day too sort of about this topic where I said, man, dad, I hate not being a pastor and I long for the day to be a pastor again. And what was that like for you? And I said, it's been like seven months for me and it feels like forever and you seven years, holy cow. So especially for my My father, who really went through some hard years, I think, of wanting to be in vocational ministry and not having an opportunity and having been in leadership for 20 plus years, 25 years, I think, in this go around. I can totally understand not wanting to give it up similarly for Joe Biden similar for any like pastor out there so, I don't say it's easy to like just walk away.
[37:00] No. And I think it's also important to note, you know, just because I think there was a, especially early on with Biden, there was a lot of anger towards his wife, which I guess on a political level. From outsiders. From outsiders that she was protecting him or kind of enabling him. Yeah. And maybe from a political standpoint, yeah, that makes some sense. But from a family standpoint, when it's your loved one that might be going through some stage of decline, sometimes it's hard for them to accept that. They don't want to accept that they are dealing with someone who is declining. And so I guess for me that there's something, it's important to take that note of this is a family thing. It's not just an individual.
[37:58] And maybe from a specific standpoint, just to spare some sympathy for her, because that cannot be easy to see a loved one kind of decline like that.
[38:13] Yeah. I mean, from a child, it's awful. And I'm sure you can speak similarly, right? Because your mom had a stroke, right? Yep, she did. Yeah. So, I mean, for my dad, until he got that Parkinson's diagnosis, it was just like he'd fallen off a cliff. Mm-hmm. And I was like, what is going on? So, I think regardless of whether there is a precipitous drop-off, and I think some will argue, well, I don't know if you've heard this, Dennis, but I've certainly heard like, oh, it's his stuttering that's getting in the way. Like, regardless what it is, I think we can, I think most intellectually honest people would agree, like, at 81, like, it's time to call it quits, even if you're sharper than a tack. Even if you are ready to run a marathon, maybe—because again, I think I hope to be working—I mean, I love to work, and I hope I'm involved in some type of ministry to the day I die, whether paid or volunteer. here. But I also hope that I have the wherewithal to recognize like, hey, I need to move on out of the way, at least of leadership.
[39:39] Mm-hmm.
[40:09] With. It's something, you know, I would be honest, I'm still dealing with, you know, that, you know, I think that that's, if anything, anything that these last month, this last month has showed us is how, um, difficult it is for families to deal with aging loved ones. Um, it's just that this This time we got to see it in the midst of a presidential race and, um, you know, we have politics thrown into it, but at the end of the day, it's, it's also about, um, an aging person, a loved one, um, someone's father, someone's husband.
[40:55] And I think if I can shift the conversation this way, it brings to mind something that I think is important here that I'm going to guess just based on what I think I know about Barack Obama and the kind of person he is, again, from a totally outsider perspective, but also thinking about the relationship he probably has with Joe Biden. That it's through relationship and caring relationship that we can come to people saying that we care about them and speak truth into their lives. I think so much, so much, I mean, I just had this conversation with Megan Bissell from Future Faith, a conversation that will air in the future on my podcast about the importance of real change only coming through relationships.
[41:54] If we're really going to see change come in our country, in our families, in our communities, in our churches, it's going to come through relationship. Like, I don't think Joe Biden has dropped out because the media was harping on him. I don't think it's because enough people got on threads or Twitter or Facebook and said he needs to drop out. Like, I think he dropped out because people that he trusted and loved and people cared about him and he cared about said, hey, Joe, here's the truth.
[42:28] And that's what we need more of.
[42:35] So where does the church fit in all this? Because there are lots of families that deal with this. And, you know, we're both pastors, but it's not even just pastors that can do something. But as a community, as we're all dealing with this, how can the church be supportive of families who are dealing with a loved one that is showing signs of, either because of Parkinson's or because of some other cognitive decline or some other issue.
[43:07] How can we support them and support the person at the center and who's dealing with all of this? Man, it's really hard. And I just say that as someone who's dealing with that personally and also literally right now in my profession is working with aging adults. And it's really complicated because the reality is you cannot make someone do something thing and and sometimes like i i'll try to be careful with my words here for for hippa's sake right um literally had a resident to try to communicate with family hey this this person's showing cognitive decline again and again again family didn't do much obviously resident didn't want to do anything wasn't in the place to do anything you know and now they're hospitalized and going to facility so it's tough like it's tough and I think it's practically speaking like really practically speaking like you have to be proactive and this is one of my frustrations with my parents is I'm like come on like I can see the future and this is where we're headed and.
[44:24] And so being proactive as possible is important, practically speaking, for churches and families. I think also just trying to create emotional space. I don't know if I heard that term, but I've been using it a lot. I think what helped with my conversation with my parents is just creating some emotional space with them, where I kind of shared like I was vulnerable a little bit and kind of opened up an emotional space. And I think my dad said something about wishing he'd take me to Little League more. I'm like, dad, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, I don't care. But I kind of recognized like he was sharing an emotional feeling himself and it was because I had opened up some emotional space for him and for them. So I think...
[45:20] And again, this conversation or this point came up with my conversation with Megan Bissell, because again, we both love Andy Root, but the testimony, this is again where I think sharing story and testimony in church can be important because you're sharing, like, hey, imagine we could sit around a table in church Sunday or on a Sunday or during a small group and just say, hey, this is the real struggle I'm dealing with my family. You know, maybe there's a third person sitting with us, Dennis, who's not yet come to that, or maybe he's already dealt with that. And there's no real, there's no magic bullets, there's no solutions, but we can sit with one another and pray with one another. And maybe we can offer a few practical tips. But I think just having people to share together in the journey or the struggle goes a long way.
[46:19] Yeah i think that that's something that's important, is it's kind of to help people know they're not alone in all of this, and it's interesting i've seen this a lot more it's funny generationally um Um, just cause I think we're from different generations, uh, of generation X. I feel like we're dealing with that more just because we have, you know, we're older, but so you're actually the, maybe the first millennial that I know that has been starting to deal with this. Um, millennial is the problem. Yeah. Um, but, but no, I mean, I mean, what I, what I'm getting at is that that's, it'll, you know, you'll, you'll start to see more and more friends that you know, that will be dealing with that because it's, it's happening, um, as our, our, our loved ones get, get older and, and, you know, and, and sometimes it's also even just having to pray, um.
[47:24] Let's just doing a lot of praying and, and, um, and that's hard. And, and to pray through all of that and, and pray for strength. And, and then there's also fear because you don't know how your parents will take, take it. Um, and then even prayers for yourself that you're not in, you know, in your own sense of denial or not wanting to, to deal with some things. Yeah. Or wishing I could do more. I mean, I think what I would say, again, this is a good lesson for people to A, think about from your own standpoint, do I have people in my life who I know can speak truth to me? And then B is if I need to speak truth to somebody else, I need to be very wise and prudent and caring in the way that I do it.
[48:31] So in a ministry setting, there are some cases, not many, but are some. And it may not be necessarily a pastor. I have heard situations of a church musician or a church secretary that are just not as on the ball for whatever reason, and they haven't left. And how do you speak to them? Because there have been lots of cases where churches don't, and they kind of just don't want to deal with the issue because they just don't want to deal with the conflict, which is understandable. I think that's the worst, where it's kind of like just hoping they'll go away. Or basically, what happens is things get so bad and so disastrous, like in this anonymous situation that I mentioned in my professional setting. Like, that's not a good outcome. That's not a good outcome. No.
[49:36] I could be wrong on this, but this is my perspective. I think that I would encourage folks to take the approach that I tried to do with my parents, where you really speak to them in honor of their commitment and their ministry and their testimony and their legacy. And then, like I said, for my dad, I said, hey, we'll throw you a ministry retirement party. We'll celebrate. You have been faithful. faithful i can't remember if i use these words or not but you know i said something the extent of like you know well done good and faithful servant like is accurate for my father from my mom for many long time church volunteers like you needed i mean this is getting really cut and dry like sometimes you need to be able to fire volunteers whether they're paid or not and again i wouldn't fire them, I would say try to gently encourage them toward other options.
[50:47] Yeah, I think it kind of reminds me, I don't know if you've ever watched the TV series Grace and Frankie was on Netflix several years ago, but one of the characters was a lawyer who was semi-retired, and he was having to deal with a secretary who was starting to kind of not be as on the ball as she used to be. And he finally has a talk with her, and what she reveals is she's been there staying on because he was starting to not be on the ball as he used to be. And so, I mean, they ended up both deciding it was time to retire fully. But it was just kind of an interesting way of how they were trying to deal with this very delicate issue, you know, for someone that had been working there for such a long time, and how he was trying to deal with it with gentleness, but how she in some ways turned it around and dealt with it with a whole lot of grace as well towards him, to allow him to be free to let go. Yeah. Yeah.
[52:02] And I think that that might be some of the important thing in all of this is that there is a sense of grace that what these people have done is important. It matters. And that as they're kind of, that it's okay to let go and even to walk with them and whatever type of that transition might be. It may be something that they get to do something different, but it's how do you treat the people, those people, in that time that matters too. Well, to bring this full circle, right? That's why I've been grateful to see on social media these very honorary comments about Biden and his many years of service. I saw something from former President Obama and others. And I think it is important that the DNC convention to give him his due. I mean, we probably had disagreements about the effectiveness of some of his policies, like many others do. But I think, broadly speaking, I think he's a man who's been honorable and ethical and tried to do the right thing. And I think we need more of that in our country.
[53:26] And a man of faith. And I will agree with you with this, is that I think when some of that came on, I was a little cynical about it. But as I thought about it more and even during this discussion, I think that that might be the right note to say that you still matter. That you, whether or not if you agree with his policies or not, that, you know, you matter. You're not just kicked to the side. You're not just kind of forgettable. That's even one of the things I told my dad. I produce a podcast for my dad, right? I mean, of course, right? Podcaster. And I told dad, we can still do the podcast even if you quit church. I can set up something video for you. It's good to have things to do. And people want to know that they matter. So certainly shoving someone to the side is not the right thing to do. And again, to bring this back to a church context, maybe can there be a way for the church secretary to still have some role?
[54:35] Can she come in and help the new secretary? I don't know. No, it's not going to work if you just like, again, working with aging adults is a term we use. People need stuff to do. Like they just get in trouble if they're just sitting around all day. And it's not good for their mental health. So people need something to do. They do. So. Well, I think at the end of the day, what this boils down to is dignity. Right. Right.
[55:06] How do you treat someone, especially in this situation, with dignity? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Well, I know that you are somewhat time-limited, and I wanted to try to keep this to no more than an hour. So, before I let you go, if people want to follow your podcast, where can they go? So yeah, future Christian podcast on all the platforms and appreciate, appreciate the listens and subscribes.
[55:42] All right. Well, Lauren, thanks so much for being able to kind of work, throw this together at the last moment. I think that this is an important conversation to have on so many different levels. So yeah, I can jump in cause I, Jeff did this in your recent episode that I listened to. Let's just say a quick prayer for our nation, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yep. I will let you pray. Okay. Okay. Dear God, thank you so much for Dennis and his ministry here on Church in Maine. Thank you for the ministry, the many ministry leaders that this goes out to and are navigating these difficult times each and every Sunday, trying to preach and minister to their context. I do pray for our nation right now as we continue in a very tumultuous and difficult time. I pray for prudence and for grace and for dignity and respect, for love of neighbor, for kindness, for the peace of Christ God. I ask this in Jesus' name. Amen. That's what we do as a nation right now. Need those prayers. So thank you so much. All right, Lauren. I will talk to you later. Take care. All right.
[57:02] Music.
[57:37] I'd love to know what you think about Joe Biden leaving the race. What do you think about the state of politics? You can drop me a line by sending an email to churchinmaine at substack.com. You can also join us on our Facebook page. There's a link in the show notes. And join our Facebook page and discuss the issue there. Um, before we sign off, I wanted to, um, kind of share my own thoughts a little bit deeper than what we did on, I did with Lauren.
[58:14] Um, this is an interesting issue. And as I said at the beginning, you know, we all talk about this as a political issue and it is a political issue. Um, we're talking about someone becoming, uh, the leader of our nation. Um, the presidency is not, uh, it's a, it's a demanding job. Um, but what we were seeing happening with, uh, I think, uh, Joe Biden's cognitive decline, um, was something that happens every day with families and it doesn't happen just with families. Uh, we talked about this with Laura and I talked about this related to churches. Sometimes it's not even just, it could be the pastor that has probably stayed on too long and is not doing as well. Um, it might be a church organist that has been there for decades and doesn't play as well, or a church, uh, secretary that's been there too long and is forgetting things. We all face someone who at some point can't do what they used to do. And how do we deal with that?
[59:28] Um, as the issues, um, were, uh, as, as the news was kind of breaking, especially on Twitter, you know, I saw a lot of accolades about the, of, of Biden making this decision. And personally, kind of the cynical part of me is I think that he waited too long. He, and there's just a lot of frustration that why wait so long when there were obvious issues. Now, I say this as someone who kind of comes from the center right, though I am not a Trump supporter, but I just didn't think that he was in any shape, really, to run for a second term.
[1:00:19] But i've been thinking about it especially um in my conversation with lauren just about that maybe those accolades that biden is receiving from people mostly democrats but i've seen a few republicans and and from world leaders isn't a bad thing and that maybe he should I think he does deserve them for the simple reason is that whether it is an, as I said, an elderly, a parent or a coworker or someone, their person, their person full of, of dignity, a child of God. And they needed to be, and I think especially as one gets older, they worry and feel that they might not matter anymore.
[1:01:18] And I think it is important to know that they do. And maybe it doesn't matter whether that person is your parent or the church secretary or the president of the United States. They need to know that they have a role and that their work wasn't in vain.
[1:01:39] I think in our nation, we can become very cynical when it comes to politics and politicians. Politicians, and especially in politics, we tend to not look at people as human beings, especially if they are from a different political party or a different political persuasion. But the fact of the matter is, as Christians, all of these people are children of God, And they deserve to live with a sense of dignity, even if they make mistakes, even if they are people that they bother us or that they aren't, as I said, from the correct political party.
[1:02:26] And so, I just wanted to say, I think that even for all the things that might have fallen short, I think it's important to say to President Biden, thank you, and Godspeed to the President. As he faces kind of these closing days of his political career, 50-year political career, that God be with him and God be with his family, especially as, and pray that they can now together focus on helping him to live the best life that he can with whatever time he has left.
[1:03:19] So that is it for this special episode of Church in Maine. Actually, we'll be back with another episode pretty soon that I was hoping to get another episode up, and then this all happened. Thank you so much for listening. As always, remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast app, and pass this episode along to family and friends who might be interested. That's it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you so much for listening. Take care, Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.
[1:03:53] Music.
