Jerry Mitchell comes to the podcast to discuss his Christian Chronicle article. Jerry argues that America's deepest crisis isn't political — it's spiritual. From the erosion of humility and kindness to our growing inability to honestly confront our own sins, Jerry makes the case that the nation is sliding toward collapse for one simple reason: we have traded godliness for gaslighting, and piety for partisanship.
Shownotes:
Can America change its course before it’s too late? The answer is up to us (Jerry Mitchell)
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00:00:27 --> 00:00:32 Hello, everyone, and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 in the intersection of faith, politics, and culture.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:39 I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. I hope you enjoyed your Easter,
00:00:39 --> 00:00:43 as the podcast had a week off last week.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:51 Back in January, an opinion article crossed my Facebook feed,
00:00:51 --> 00:00:57 and I saw it had a headline that just was incredibly captivating.
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 Can America Change its Course Before It's Too Late?
00:01:01 --> 00:01:08 The Answer is Up to Us." That headline was in the Christian Chronicle,
00:01:08 --> 00:01:15 which is a journal from the Churches of Christ, which are related to my denomination,
00:01:16 --> 00:01:17 the Disciples of Christ.
00:01:18 --> 00:01:25 And it was an interesting opening, a headline, but the opening words of that
00:01:25 --> 00:01:28 article were even more compelling.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:33 And this is how it begins, quote, From here, you can see the end of America,
00:01:33 --> 00:01:39 the end of kindness, the end of decency, the end of democracy, unquote.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:44 And hearing that, I just had to chat with the author.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:50 And it really kind of rang true when I was reading it.
00:01:50 --> 00:01:52 As I said, I read this in January.
00:01:53 --> 00:01:57 And as many of you know, I live in Minneapolis.
00:01:58 --> 00:02:06 And this was right at the time when ICE was quite active here in Minnesota.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:13 Only a few weeks after the killing of Renee Goode and only a few days before
00:02:13 --> 00:02:24 the killing of Alex Preddy by agents from ICE and from the Border Patrol.
00:02:24 --> 00:02:28 And so I really wanted to talk to the author.
00:02:28 --> 00:02:32 And the author is Jerry Mitchell.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:39 He is an investigative reporter, and he teaches and preaches at Skywood Hills
00:02:39 --> 00:02:45 Church of Christ in Pearl, Mississippi, and is also a regular contributor to
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 The Christian Chronicle.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:53 Now, this episode is, I think, an interesting follow-up from our last episode
00:02:53 --> 00:03:01 two weeks ago with Michael Baha Rahim about how rising polarization is harming American democracy.
00:03:02 --> 00:03:07 I think this is kind of coming at it from a spiritual standpoint,
00:03:07 --> 00:03:13 and I think both are important kind of bookends to a problem.
00:03:14 --> 00:03:18 Really that we are facing as Americans.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:25 Now, one note before we go into this interview, it actually took place in February.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:30 So there might be references that are somewhat now dated, but I just wanted
00:03:30 --> 00:03:32 to let you know that about that ahead of time.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:42 So on that note, let's listen to this interview with Jerry Mitchell.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:09 All right, thank you for joining me today.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:14 I thought I wanted to start off by knowing a little bit about who you are and
00:04:14 --> 00:04:15 including your spiritual background.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:18 Yeah, my name is Jerry Mitchell.
00:04:20 --> 00:04:25 I've been involved with the Churches of Christ since I think I was in the womb.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:31 So, anyway, I grew up, obviously, in the Church of Christ.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 That's kind of where my roots are and where I still am.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:40 So, yeah, my mom and dad went to Harding University.
00:04:41 --> 00:04:46 And I guess it was still called a college back then. And when I got there,
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 they changed it to university.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:56 And my daughter went as well. So, yeah, we've got three generations of our family
00:04:56 --> 00:05:01 that have gone to Harding and graduated. So, anyway.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:09 And so, yeah, I've been a teacher.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:19 I do the lessons once in a while. We have kind of a rotation group of guys that speak and do classes.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:26 I go on regularly gone mission trips to Africa as part of that work as well.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:31 So, yeah, God has truly blessed me and grateful.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:35 And we're kind
00:05:35 --> 00:05:39 of religiously related because i'm a ordained
00:05:39 --> 00:05:42 minister and the disciples of christ so yeah yeah
00:05:42 --> 00:05:45 yeah of course the church of christ and disciple christ kind of coming from
00:05:45 --> 00:05:54 that same yeah they're the same same same roots yeah absolutely yep yep so i'm
00:05:54 --> 00:06:00 i had you on because I saw something that was in the Christian Chronicle that I found interesting.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:08 For being a short article, not a huge amount of words, it packed a lot of punch.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:12 Kind of with that title of Can
00:06:12 --> 00:06:16 America Change Its Course Before It's Too Late? The Answer is Up to Us.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:23 And you start that off kind of with one sentence, you know, from here you can see the end of America.
00:06:25 --> 00:06:31 And it kind of goes from there. And I wanted to ask first, what led you to write that article?
00:06:32 --> 00:06:36 You know, what were the things that you were thinking about that made you want to write this?
00:06:38 --> 00:06:45 Well, sir, you know, it's been brewing in me for a while, and I was trying my best.
00:06:45 --> 00:06:50 People may not believe it, but I was trying my best to write something from
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 a spiritual standpoint.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:56 By day, I'm a journalist, so I mean, I write all the time.
00:06:56 --> 00:07:05 But I, you know, I've just been very concerned about the country's direction.
00:07:06 --> 00:07:14 And just as a whole, it seems like all those things that, you know,
00:07:14 --> 00:07:18 I'll take a simple example, humility, right? Right.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:26 And we've just traded humility for arrogance in this country,
00:07:26 --> 00:07:32 and it's just very sad to see this virtue,
00:07:32 --> 00:07:38 which clearly Scripture, if there's anything that is clear in Scripture,
00:07:38 --> 00:07:44 it is this point that we are to be humble and not prideful.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 Pride goes before fall. Pride goes before destruction. I mean,
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 all these things, the scripture tells us about pride.
00:07:52 --> 00:07:56 In fact, pride is the very nature of Satan.
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 So, you know, we don't want that.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:09 And I just see us trading these virtues for, you know, worldly virtues,
00:08:09 --> 00:08:11 you know, like being proud, being arrogant.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 And we think that's – people, more and more Christians, I think,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:19 think that's a good thing or, you know, or that's fine, you know.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:24 And the worldly way of thinking would be, well, that's – as long as you can back it up, right?
00:08:27 --> 00:08:32 You know, show me the money, you know, that kind of stuff. It just –.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 And all that stuff has just bothered me for a long time and so i wanted to write
00:08:37 --> 00:08:42 a spiritual piece that really wasn't partisan at all i was trying my best to
00:08:42 --> 00:08:47 write a christian piece without being partisan and with with an aim of trying
00:08:47 --> 00:08:52 to get through to everybody that this is this is,
00:08:52 --> 00:08:56 this is not uh a problem you know
00:08:56 --> 00:08:58 the problem is not the president the problem is not a political
00:08:58 --> 00:09:03 party the problem is us we as
00:09:03 --> 00:09:09 the old pogo thing was we've seen the enemy and it is us you know and uh and
00:09:09 --> 00:09:14 um i think that's the problem is our sins you know we we've just gotten more
00:09:14 --> 00:09:19 and more minor in sins and so we can't scripture makes clear on this point um
00:09:19 --> 00:09:23 our sins blind us our sins blind us.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:25 And pride especially blinds us.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:31 And so, if we have pride in our lives, then we can't see our own sins clearer.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:37 And that's why we need humility. I mean, that's why humility is so important.
00:09:37 --> 00:09:41 In fact, there's so many blessings throughout scripture that are attached to
00:09:41 --> 00:09:46 humility, attached to fearing God,
00:09:46 --> 00:09:52 attached to all these things that are really important, but we've been willing
00:09:52 --> 00:10:00 to sacrifice those for various reasons, whether it's we want to get along with people, you know,
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 in the world, or whether we want to.
00:10:05 --> 00:10:09 You know, politics come into play. We like a particular politician,
00:10:10 --> 00:10:14 you know, and he's out there championing us and our fight and,
00:10:15 --> 00:10:16 you know, whatever people are thinking.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 I'm not talking about any particular politician and saying that.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:28 I'm just saying, if you think the answer to us as Christians is political activism,
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 I just think we're going down the wrong road.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:39 I think the answer is a spiritual one. The answer is spiritual. Jesus taught us that.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:49 You look at that and look through the book of John. Almost every chapter, we've got Jesus says,
00:10:50 --> 00:10:54 I'll tear this temple down and rebuild it in three days. Well,
00:10:54 --> 00:10:55 they thought he was talking physically.
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 This took 60 years to build.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 And, of course, Jesus was talking,
00:11:01 --> 00:11:04 you know, spiritually. He was talking about his own body, actually.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:13 And then in chapter 3, you know, here's Nicodemus, and Jesus is saying,
00:11:13 --> 00:11:14 oh, you've got to be born again.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:18 And Nicodemus is like, wait a minute, how can I do this now?
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 Wait a minute, I can't go back to my mom's womb, you know? But Jesus was talking
00:11:22 --> 00:11:28 spiritually, you know, the woman at the well, you know, you need spiritual water,
00:11:29 --> 00:11:30 you know, you need living water.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 Oh, man, tell me where I can get this water so I don't have to thirst again.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:38 I have to keep coming back over to this well because he was talking spiritually
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 and she thought he was talking physically.
00:11:41 --> 00:11:49 So that's our problem. We, we, we, we are just way too much in the world.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:55 And, uh, yeah, I mean, um, I think, I think it says what I mean,
00:11:55 --> 00:12:01 you know, the piece, you know, that I wrote, I think pretty much, um,
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 says what I mean and, and, and the best way possible, I think.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 And, uh, yeah, if, uh.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:19 Anyway, if you want to read it, it's fine with me. I don't object.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 Or if you want me to read it, I'll read it. I think one of the things that was interesting.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 I was actually going to say one of the things that I thought was interesting
00:12:34 --> 00:12:42 about this is that you, the word that you use to say why we're nearing it and
00:12:42 --> 00:12:44 you've already brought it up is sin.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:49 Yeah, exactly. I think what's interesting is,
00:12:50 --> 00:12:58 Even within the church, if sometimes if we say what a problem is, we don't name it as sin.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:03 And I think that's always been interesting that we don't, like we're afraid
00:13:03 --> 00:13:08 to use that word these days to really kind of talk about that. Yeah, I agree with you.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:15 And so, I'm kind of curious, one, what led you to just talk about it straight
00:13:15 --> 00:13:21 up as sin? But then two is, why do you think people are hesitant to talk about sin these days?
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 Well, they don't want to talk about their own sins. I think that's the problem.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:29 They don't want to look at their own sins. They want to, I mean,
00:13:29 --> 00:13:31 all you got to do is, what, Luke 18?
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 I mean, the Pharisees, you know, is praying and saying, Lord,
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 thank you that I'm not like that tax collector over there.
00:13:39 --> 00:13:46 You know, weighing ourselves against somebody else and therefore justifying
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 our own behavior. And that's age old.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:59 But yeah, you mind if I read it? I just think that, and I can tell you what motivated.
00:13:59 --> 00:14:03 Yeah, let's read it. And I think it'll help people in case they haven't read it.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:09 It's not that long, so. No, it's not long at all.
00:14:09 --> 00:14:13 From here, you can see the end of America, the end of kindness,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:17 the end of decency, the end of democracy.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 Truth is no longer about facts. It's about feelings.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:27 Justice is no longer about what's right. It's about making sure our side wins.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:31 We no longer mourn with those who mourn. We mock them.
00:14:31 --> 00:14:36 We no longer love our enemies. We punish them. We no longer believe in the kingdom
00:14:36 --> 00:14:38 of heaven. We believe in the kingdom of self.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:44 Our nation, once breathed alive through freedom, now favors fear-mongering.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 Freedom of religion is given way to freedom to ridicule. Freedom of speech is
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 given way to freedom to hate.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:55 Freedom of protest is given way to freedom to hurt.
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 So what is the biggest reason we are sliding toward the end?
00:14:59 --> 00:15:03 Not immigration, not Christian nationalism, not a political party, not the president.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:08 America is nearing an end for a simple reason, our sins. We've traded godliness
00:15:08 --> 00:15:13 for gaslighting, humility for pomposity, kindness for cruelty,
00:15:13 --> 00:15:17 and piety for partisanship. We've traded the love of others for the hatred of
00:15:17 --> 00:15:18 those who aren't like us.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:24 These days, we think salvation comes from sports teams and grace comes from winning the lottery.
00:15:25 --> 00:15:29 We once believed in the Constitution. Now we believe that might makes right.
00:15:29 --> 00:15:34 We once believed in the land of opportunity. Now we believe only some people deserve it.
00:15:34 --> 00:15:40 We once believed that lifting others would lift everyone. Now we believe in building walls.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:45 We are no longer willing to gaze in the mirror and realize that we are the problem.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 Instead of accepting responsibility, we blame others.
00:15:49 --> 00:15:53 We curse our neighbor instead of building community. We stoke the fires of fear
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 instead of pursuing peace.
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 We have blood on our hands and act like the victims deserved it.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 We've seen God bless America and cuss the driver who cuts us off in traffic.
00:16:05 --> 00:16:09 We declare our nation is the greatest in the world, but we refuse to open our
00:16:09 --> 00:16:11 hearts to those in greatest needs.
00:16:11 --> 00:16:15 America has been conquered without firing a shot, conquered by fear,
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 conquered by loathing, and yes, conquered by sin.
00:16:18 --> 00:16:22 Can America change its course before it's too late? The answer is up to us.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:27 It pretty much says what I mean.
00:16:27 --> 00:16:31 Yeah. And I will add, you did a better reading of it than I would have.
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 So just to say that.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 Yeah, I can tell you what motivated it.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:54 I saw the killing of Renee Goode, and of course Alex Pretty, too, in Minnesota.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 And both were so senseless.
00:16:59 --> 00:17:05 I mean, regardless of political affiliation, there's no way you should look
00:17:05 --> 00:17:09 at that and think those killings were okay.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 And I don't, again, I don't mean this as a partisan piece.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 I just meant I was really moved by that.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:24 I was just like very upsetting to see two Americans shot down in cold blood.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 Totally unnecessarily the woman um,
00:17:30 --> 00:17:35 I mean, even if you give the officer the benefit of the first shot that you
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 say, oh, well, she was trying to run him over, okay, fine.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:46 Give him the first shot. The next two shots were fired through the side window
00:17:46 --> 00:17:50 where he was clearly out of harm's way, including the fatal shot.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:56 And again, I don't mean either of these things politically, one iota.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:01 I'm just talking about ourselves, being able to look at ourselves honestly.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:09 And same thing with Alex Gretti. Did this guy deserve to be shot 10 times and
00:18:09 --> 00:18:13 did essentially nothing other than defend a woman,
00:18:13 --> 00:18:18 which I would think most of us, most of us,
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 you know, decent American men are going to stand up.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:25 But if some woman gets pushed down, we're going to say, hey,
00:18:25 --> 00:18:27 wait a minute, buddy, what are you doing?
00:18:27 --> 00:18:31 I mean, I think that's a natural reaction from almost any man,
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 at least any man of character, right?
00:18:34 --> 00:18:38 He's not going to stand around and let that happen.
00:18:38 --> 00:18:44 So I'm not justifying. You can argue all day about whether they should have
00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 been protesting or doing this or doing that. Fine. Argue that.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 But there was no reason for those two people to die.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:59 And these are thoughts I've been having for a long time. So I just thought,
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 I'm gonna write something, but I don't mean it partisan.
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 And I don't mean by bringing that up that I mean any of this partisan.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:10 I just mean it to us as Christians to really think about these things.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:14 Because, you know,
00:19:15 --> 00:19:21 And you can't justify these things and think it's okay.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:27 And the reason we justify these things is because we start developing a team mentality.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:34 It's our side and their side. We're the good guys. They're the bad guys.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 And you can't do that. I mean, you can't approach.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:43 The Bible doesn't tell us to approach things from that standpoint, a team standpoint.
00:19:43 --> 00:19:48 Like everything that my team does is okay, you know, even if they're,
00:19:49 --> 00:19:54 you know, whatever they're doing, even horrible sins or whatever, that's okay.
00:19:54 --> 00:19:59 But the other folks, man, they, you know, they're the ones, you know,
00:19:59 --> 00:20:05 we need to stomp on them and whatever else we need to do.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 And I just think that's not what the Bible teaches.
00:20:09 --> 00:20:12 The Bible teaches to love our enemies. And that's kind of the point of what I'm writing.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 It's like, it's not really to address it from a political standpoint,
00:20:16 --> 00:20:23 it's to address it strictly from a spiritual standpoint of we are in trouble
00:20:23 --> 00:20:33 when we start justifying killings of citizens just because it fits our particular political,
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35 you know, view or whatever.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 That's the way I feel about it.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 And again, I don't mean any of this politically. I mean it spiritually.
00:20:43 --> 00:20:46 We've got to seriously look at ourselves. And that's why I'm saying look at
00:20:46 --> 00:20:48 ourselves. I'm not even talking about looking at other people.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:51 I'm talking about looking at ourselves.
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58 Anyway. How do you think we got to this point?
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 Well, a lot of reasons. I think...
00:21:07 --> 00:21:13 I think one of the problems is, well, A, we don't, one of the big problems I
00:21:13 --> 00:21:21 see out there now, you know, we don't read God's word. People don't read God's word anymore.
00:21:22 --> 00:21:26 I mean, and so they have their own mentality about what they think Christianity
00:21:26 --> 00:21:31 ought to be or what preacher A or preacher B says it is.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 And I think we've got
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 to get back to reading this word but we've got
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 to get humble again we're just way too
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 arrogant as Americans we're just
00:21:44 --> 00:21:51 way too arrogant go to Africa I'm telling you you want to go some places like
00:21:51 --> 00:21:59 Africa and just let I mean you go in Africa and people are walking around smiles
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 on their faces and they have nothing,
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 absolutely nothing.
00:22:06 --> 00:22:13 They're the most joyful Christians I have ever met are in Africa, not America.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 The most miserable Christians I've ever known are in America.
00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 It's just...
00:22:22 --> 00:22:30 You know, our possessions, you know, our wealth, I just, the poorest person
00:22:30 --> 00:22:35 here is wealthier than where I go in Africa.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:39 And we just, we're just so arrogant.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:46 We think we deserve this or that. And, oh, it's just, it's just kind of sickening,
00:22:46 --> 00:22:47 you know, just kind of sickening.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 And I've been reading the prophets lately, and I'm in Jeremiah now,
00:22:54 --> 00:22:57 and I'm reading them chronologically.
00:22:57 --> 00:23:01 I never read them chronologically before, so I'm reading chronologically this time.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:07 And I feel like I'm reading about today. I feel like I'm reading about today.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:13 And Jeremiah was like the only, God tells Jeremiah, in Jeremiah 5,
00:23:13 --> 00:23:19 I think it is, he tells him, hey, go through Jerusalem. and see if you can just find one honest person.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 One. One honest person.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:26 He couldn't. And I wonder how many honest people.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:34 If God ordered someone else to go through whatever town we live in,
00:23:34 --> 00:23:40 I'm not picking on any particular town, but pick a town in America and we'll
00:23:40 --> 00:23:42 go through. How many honest people would he find?
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 That's a great question I think,
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 Yeah, I was thinking, actually, as you were reading this again,
00:23:55 --> 00:24:01 that this sounds a lot like something from the prophets.
00:24:02 --> 00:24:06 Because I think one of the interesting things about the prophets is that they
00:24:06 --> 00:24:10 didn't pick one part of society.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:12 It was everybody.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:18 Everybody was at fault. Everybody needed to repent.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:25 It was exactly whole thing it wasn't just these certain people that were in the wrong,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 yeah i asked them to repent as a as a community
00:24:29 --> 00:24:37 as a as a whole as a nation as a whole and uh that that word repentance by the
00:24:37 --> 00:24:41 way i'm glad you brought it up is the word we'd forgotten we don't believe in
00:24:41 --> 00:24:48 it anymore um we just you know we think we can just say we're sorry.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:56 And that's it. And that's not, God wants repentance.
00:24:56 --> 00:25:04 He wants it to be deep, deep repentance, true repentance.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09 Not this, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, okay, I shouldn't have done that,
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 and moving on and doing something, doing it again, you know.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 He wants true repentance and I mean
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 if you were to boil down the message of the prophets to one
00:25:21 --> 00:25:24 word it would be repentance if you're
00:25:24 --> 00:25:29 going to boil down the message of John the Baptist into one word it would be
00:25:29 --> 00:25:34 repentance if you're going to boil down the message of Jesus into one word it
00:25:34 --> 00:25:38 would be repentance and it's the one that we don't want to talk about anymore
00:25:38 --> 00:25:42 we don't want to talk about sin anymore we don't want to talk about repentance anymore but.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:48 Do we not want to talk about repentance because, I don't know,
00:25:48 --> 00:25:54 we tend to think that we're right, we're so great, that we don't need to see
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 where we've fallen short?
00:25:57 --> 00:26:01 Yeah, and I think the problem is exactly what we were talking about earlier, which is comparison.
00:26:02 --> 00:26:06 We look at people in the world and think, well, I'm not like them.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 But that's not God's standard. Right.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:20 You understand how holy god is you know he demands hold us to have holy lives you know so,
00:26:21 --> 00:26:27 it's um so yeah he calls us to a higher standard he wants us to change he his
00:26:27 --> 00:26:33 old goal is when we come to him we began to change his spirit helps us begin
00:26:33 --> 00:26:38 to change we're being transformed day by day, as it talks about in 2 Corinthians 3.
00:26:38 --> 00:26:45 His Spirit's transforming us day by day. And so that's what we need. We've got to change.
00:26:46 --> 00:26:51 And this whole idea that we don't have to repent, or we repented one time,
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53 so that's good. We're good.
00:26:55 --> 00:27:02 Which always kind of cracks me up. It's like, okay, I did that. I checked off the box.
00:27:03 --> 00:27:07 In Churches of Christ, we have the five steps of salvation. I don't know if
00:27:07 --> 00:27:12 the disciples of Christ have the Christian church has that or not,
00:27:12 --> 00:27:17 but it's what I grew up with. And it's so much more than that.
00:27:17 --> 00:27:21 I think that humility is not on that list.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 Repentance is on that list, but it gets forgotten.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:30 Anyway there is something recently when
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 i was preparing for a sermon that the
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 word for repentance is not
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 a one-time thing it's a continual thing it's
00:27:39 --> 00:27:44 basically living a life yeah the greek the greek word that i think is perpetual
00:27:44 --> 00:27:50 repentance and and there certainly been a number of people like those who were
00:27:50 --> 00:27:56 involved in the uh reformation movement that talk about that in their writings about how that,
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 you know, repentance is a continual thing.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 It's not a one-time thing. Yeah.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:11 So, that then leads me to saying, what does repentance look like for us as a nation?
00:28:11 --> 00:28:15 How would we need to kind of change our way?
00:28:16 --> 00:28:20 Well, I think it has to start at the church level.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:25 You know what I mean? Before it can be at the national level, if that makes any sense.
00:28:25 --> 00:28:29 I think we're the ones that need to lead the way to that.
00:28:30 --> 00:28:35 We need to confess our sins. And you notice, this is what's interesting.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:43 You notice these prayers. When you talk about prayers, Ezra or whoever it is in the Old Testament,
00:28:44 --> 00:28:52 they not only talked about their own sins, they talked about the sins of their forefathers,
00:28:53 --> 00:28:53 right? Right.
00:28:55 --> 00:29:01 So if we as a nation confessed our sin, not just our own sins,
00:29:01 --> 00:29:07 but the sins of our forefathers, that would obviously include a lot of stuff
00:29:07 --> 00:29:11 that people especially today don't want to talk about.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:20 Whether you're talking about Jim Crow or slavery or lynchings,
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 all those things that people don't want to talk about these days,
00:29:23 --> 00:29:30 which I think is a real shame because I think we have to...
00:29:32 --> 00:29:37 As a nation, we have to understand, like, the Bible tells the truth about everything.
00:29:38 --> 00:29:42 You know what I mean? Like, even like the best Bible characters,
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 we find out their sins and their flaws.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:53 It doesn't pull punches in telling us what, you know, tells us about Moses, right?
00:29:53 --> 00:29:57 Moses, who seemed like he was so faithful. Well, he killed a guy in Egypt.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:04 Moses, who led the Israelites all this way. Well, you know, he also was supposed
00:30:04 --> 00:30:08 to speak to the rock and he struck the rock because he was mad.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 And he said, and of course, the bigger sin was the fact he said,
00:30:11 --> 00:30:15 we do we, you know, because he was including him and God together, you know.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:24 And so I'm going to do so many things that, you know, like if the Bible is that
00:30:24 --> 00:30:27 way, shouldn't we be that way?
00:30:27 --> 00:30:31 You know what I mean? Shouldn't we be more open? And there's a reason it says
00:30:31 --> 00:30:38 in James 5, confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.
00:30:38 --> 00:30:45 So the whole idea, the world's way is to cover sin, right? To cover sin.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 And God's way is to confess it.
00:30:50 --> 00:30:56 And the reason is so it doesn't have a hold on you anymore because sin enslaves us.
00:30:57 --> 00:31:03 It blinds us. It enslaves us. It keeps us enslaved until we're able to break those chains.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:07 And of course, the way we break the chains is Jesus.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09 I mean, that's how we're able to do that.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:18 Yeah, it is interesting when you talk about things, especially in our past when
00:31:18 --> 00:31:20 it comes to things like race,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:27 is kind of a common rejoinder is to say, well, I didn't do those things.
00:31:28 --> 00:31:31 Sure. The honesty is, I would agree. You did not.
00:31:32 --> 00:31:39 But it's not, I think the way that scripture would look at it is that sin is
00:31:39 --> 00:31:41 also kind of a communal thing.
00:31:41 --> 00:31:44 It's not just a yeah it's a national one
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 person exactly and so that
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 there have to be ways of how do we continue to repent
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 of that which is to turn away to turn around
00:31:53 --> 00:32:00 yeah and that that's always in some ways a lifelong process and i think if we
00:32:00 --> 00:32:05 really think about it it's also a human process it's it's not a great a sense
00:32:05 --> 00:32:11 of well then i'm a bad person well but you know it's that we're all human and we are all sin,
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 and so that that's something that we always have to do.
00:32:16 --> 00:32:20 Yeah, and I'll give another example that would be probably commonly known to people.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 The 12-step program. 12-step program, right?
00:32:26 --> 00:32:37 So you go through the 12 steps, and one of the 12 steps is to make amends for
00:32:37 --> 00:32:39 the things you've done in the past.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:47 So it doesn't just apply, as you mentioned, to us one-on-one,
00:32:47 --> 00:32:50 but it's also communal as well.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:56 And I'll give a simple example of this. I did a story on this not too many years ago.
00:32:56 --> 00:33:02 I decided I wanted to know how much did, in Mississippi,
00:33:03 --> 00:33:10 which is where I'm a reporter, how much did Mississippi underfund black schools
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 compared to white schools between 1890 and 1960?
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 Okay, so I was able to actually get those figures.
00:33:18 --> 00:33:21 They were year by year, and I had to do the math on them.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:28 And then what I did is I converted those numbers into modern dollars.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:33 So you could understand how much it would be today.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:39 And what I found, the numbers were shocking to me. I mean, shocking.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:46 Because the number was $25 billion that black schools were underfunded.
00:33:47 --> 00:33:53 Now, you want to tell me that doesn't have an effect over generations?
00:33:55 --> 00:34:01 And there are pictures of these schools. I mean, you've got these wooden schools,
00:34:01 --> 00:34:06 you know, one-room schoolhouses with holes in the wall and a wood stove in the
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 middle for the black students.
00:34:09 --> 00:34:14 And then you've got, for the white students, brand new red brick building with
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 playgrounds and everything else, you know, nice clean schoolrooms.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:25 Now, you're telling me that doesn't have an effect? I mean, multiple generations,
00:34:25 --> 00:34:27 not just one generation.
00:34:27 --> 00:34:30 So, it just strikes me. And even...
00:34:31 --> 00:34:36 Go ahead i'm going to say and even generations after things have been rectified
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 it's still that's what i'm talking about that's what i'm talking about like
00:34:39 --> 00:34:43 that that's perpetual i mean you're you're you're setting in motion something
00:34:43 --> 00:34:46 there and so i think those are the kinds of things,
00:34:46 --> 00:34:54 we need to be willing to look at um and be honest about i mean you can't how
00:34:54 --> 00:35:00 can you be honest about your present if you won't be honest about your dang past.
00:35:01 --> 00:35:05 You know what I mean? If we can't get honest about the past,
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 how can we get honest about the present?
00:35:08 --> 00:35:14 You know, it's like, it blows my mind. People want to write their own version.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:18 And I'm not talking about politically, either left or right.
00:35:18 --> 00:35:22 I don't mean it that way. I mean the opposite. I mean just telling the truth.
00:35:23 --> 00:35:29 Just tell the truth. Because that's what God would have us do, you know?
00:35:29 --> 00:35:35 I mean, when Jesus was on earth, did he pull punches? Did he pull punches? Oh, no.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:43 That's what I'm saying. I mean, he didn't pull punches. And God spoke to the
00:35:43 --> 00:35:44 prophets. Did he pull punches?
00:35:45 --> 00:35:49 Nope. Oh, you're a bunch of good people. You're just, you know,
00:35:49 --> 00:35:54 I just really like you. No, that's not what it says.
00:35:56 --> 00:35:58 It says, repent, return to me.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:06 I mean, you know, and he kept making that offer over and over again to the Israelites and to the Jews.
00:36:06 --> 00:36:09 Just to please, just, he didn't say please at all. He just said,
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 return to me or disaster is going to come.
00:36:13 --> 00:36:20 And over and over again, they didn't and disaster came. so this actually reminds
00:36:20 --> 00:36:24 me of something you know it's um,
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 It's at Lincoln's, which happens to, we're recording this actually on his birthday,
00:36:30 --> 00:36:39 his second inaugural, that the way that he framed that was not simply, it's the South's fault.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:46 He framed it in, it's America's fault, and that there was a sense of repentance
00:36:46 --> 00:36:50 and that the guilt, the shame falls on all of us.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 And I've always found that speech fascinating, that he could have used that
00:36:55 --> 00:37:02 in that sense of very much a team, like, we're on the winning side and they're on the losing side.
00:37:02 --> 00:37:09 But no, it was a very spiritual way of saying that we've all sinned.
00:37:11 --> 00:37:15 And this is kind of what we're going with right now, what we're dealing with
00:37:15 --> 00:37:17 right now in this war is the result of that sin.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:21 Yeah, exactly. He blamed it on sin.
00:37:22 --> 00:37:26 And the other thing too, and sometimes forgotten about Lincoln,
00:37:27 --> 00:37:32 is we still celebrate Thanksgiving, which he essentially, you know,
00:37:32 --> 00:37:34 set up, although it seems to
00:37:34 --> 00:37:38 be less about God and more like gorging ourselves and watching football.
00:37:38 --> 00:37:45 But it's interesting, Lincoln set up not only that, but he set up a national
00:37:45 --> 00:37:48 day of fasting and prayer.
00:37:49 --> 00:37:53 And that's completely forgotten today. It has not continued on.
00:37:54 --> 00:37:59 And I think there's a reason for it. Yeah, I think he called it a day of national
00:37:59 --> 00:38:02 humiliation, actually, is what he called it.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:08 And it was in keeping with exactly what you said,
00:38:08 --> 00:38:17 he felt like the Civil War was divine punishment for our sins,
00:38:17 --> 00:38:21 especially for the sin of slavery. Mm-hmm.
00:38:22 --> 00:38:29 And so he saw that in that context, and it just felt like that the nation had
00:38:29 --> 00:38:32 gotten too proud and forgotten God.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:39 And I think that's where we are today. We're so self-sufficient.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:47 You know, as someone said, I think it was Francis Chan, you know, Jesus says, what?
00:38:47 --> 00:38:51 Can thou yourself take the cross and follow me?
00:38:51 --> 00:38:57 You know, Jesus says that we've converted that into love yourself,
00:38:57 --> 00:39:05 you know, and follow your heart, you know.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:10 And that's kind of the way we think now as a society.
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 You know, whatever I think is the right thing to do instead of what Scripture
00:39:14 --> 00:39:20 says, which is, you know, we're supposed to trust Him.
00:39:21 --> 00:39:24 And his judgment and not our own. It's when we trust our own judgment,
00:39:24 --> 00:39:26 we get in big trouble. Yeah.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:33 Well, do you think that we can, as a nation, repent?
00:39:34 --> 00:39:41 Or, or maybe I should rephrase that. Well, well, yeah, no, can we repent? And.
00:39:43 --> 00:39:50 What do you think we will do? Well, if we keep going down the same road,
00:39:50 --> 00:39:51 I don't think it will work in.
00:39:51 --> 00:39:55 I think America, it will be the end. I don't know when.
00:39:55 --> 00:39:59 I mean, that's a question up to God. But I think if we keep going down this
00:39:59 --> 00:40:05 road, that's the obvious outcome. Just read scripture.
00:40:07 --> 00:40:11 But I think, too, it has to start with us.
00:40:11 --> 00:40:19 You know, when you go back and you read about revivals that have taken place in history,
00:40:19 --> 00:40:27 I remember reading about the South Korean revival, and I was so struck by it.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:33 And so it was one of the leaders in the church threw himself on the floor and
00:40:33 --> 00:40:36 began to confess his sins.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:42 And soon everybody else in the church was doing the same thing.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 And that's the kind of thing it's going to take.
00:40:47 --> 00:40:52 And like I said, I don't think it starts, it's not going to start in Washington.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:56 Let's just be honest. It's not about Washington. This is about us.
00:40:57 --> 00:41:02 Like each of us in our churches going in and truly repenting.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:07 And I think that's, we're just way too arrogant.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:13 And as long as we're arrogant, we'll never see our own sins and we'll see the need for our sins.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:17 If you're looking at from a part, if people are looking at it from a partisan
00:41:17 --> 00:41:22 perspective, then you're thinking, well, we're that party over there.
00:41:22 --> 00:41:23 There's the problem right there.
00:41:23 --> 00:41:26 That's the reason for all the evil in this country.
00:41:27 --> 00:41:31 And instead of looking at ourselves, you know, it's the old story.
00:41:32 --> 00:41:36 The Bible can either be a mirror or a magnifying glass.
00:41:37 --> 00:41:39 And which one is it going to be for you?
00:41:40 --> 00:41:46 You know, I mean, magnifying glass, we're going to try and find that splinter in somebody else's eye.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:52 Are we going to, are we willing to look at, look at ourselves and realize we've
00:41:52 --> 00:41:54 got a two by four in our own eye?
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01 Do you think have there been similar i
00:42:01 --> 00:42:05 mean we we kind of already talked about one but similar
00:42:05 --> 00:42:08 periods in american history where we've are kind
00:42:08 --> 00:42:13 of like where we're at now and and where the nation has in some ways repented
00:42:13 --> 00:42:22 well it's a great question i mean you've had various revivals You kind of alluded
00:42:22 --> 00:42:25 to one earlier in the 1800s.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:32 We certainly had that, what sometimes gets called the Restoration Movement, that was happening.
00:42:33 --> 00:42:38 Certainly, if you go back in time, in colonial days, Jonathan Edwards was kind
00:42:38 --> 00:42:44 of at the heart of that particular, helping to lead that revival.
00:42:45 --> 00:42:52 He famously did the sermon Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God,
00:42:52 --> 00:42:55 and people just think that's an awful title. But go read the lesson.
00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 Go read the lesson. I mean, it's just like, wow, it's really powerful.
00:43:00 --> 00:43:05 In fact, when I was in high school, we read excerpts of that lesson.
00:43:06 --> 00:43:10 It's kind of interesting. It was in the book. I remember that.
00:43:12 --> 00:43:16 So we've got to get back to trying to please God instead of pleasing ourselves.
00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 I think we're way too interested in pleasing ourselves.
00:43:21 --> 00:43:24 And that means serving others instead of serving ourselves.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:32 And that's one of the big problems I see today. We just don't want to serve others.
00:43:32 --> 00:43:36 We want to be served. We don't want to serve. Mm-hmm.
00:43:39 --> 00:43:45 Where do you think that the churches have fallen short when it comes to not
00:43:45 --> 00:43:47 helping people to be able to repent?
00:43:47 --> 00:43:50 Because, I mean, as you said, it seems to start in the churches,
00:43:51 --> 00:43:59 but I think if I understand the writing, it seems like we've kind of fallen short.
00:44:00 --> 00:44:05 I think that's exactly it. I mean, we've just drifted.
00:44:08 --> 00:44:14 There's been a really big move to attract people now.
00:44:16 --> 00:44:21 You know, you're going to have, you know, I'm not picking up any particular
00:44:21 --> 00:44:25 churches and saying this, but, you know, you've got stadium seating some places
00:44:25 --> 00:44:27 for people when they come to church.
00:44:27 --> 00:44:31 You've got, you know, coffee bars.
00:44:32 --> 00:44:37 You know what I mean? It's like we've done everything. We've turned it around.
00:44:38 --> 00:44:42 And we made it about ourselves instead of about God.
00:44:42 --> 00:44:50 Like, you know, we're supposed to be worshiping God instead of we're worshiping ourselves, really.
00:44:51 --> 00:44:55 We're just trying to accommodate ourselves, serve ourselves.
00:44:56 --> 00:45:01 And you know that's just a real problem I think yeah.
00:45:04 --> 00:45:09 Where do you think you see us as a nation when it comes to,
00:45:10 --> 00:45:15 what we're dealing with in the next few years which I'm,
00:45:16 --> 00:45:19 frightened I'm frightened I'm going
00:45:19 --> 00:45:22 to tell anybody listening to this if you're just wondering about
00:45:22 --> 00:45:25 this or thinking about this yourself go read
00:45:25 --> 00:45:29 the prophets go read jeremiah go read
00:45:29 --> 00:45:36 isaiah and see i'm reading jeremiah right now and i'm just so struck by how
00:45:36 --> 00:45:44 much of what god says to the jews he would say to us today like i don't know
00:45:44 --> 00:45:46 that the language would change that much.
00:45:47 --> 00:45:52 Return to me. Return to me. I mean, that's really what it's all about.
00:45:52 --> 00:45:53 We've got to return to him.
00:45:54 --> 00:46:00 We've got to humble ourselves. We've got to have a day of national humiliation.
00:46:01 --> 00:46:02 But we ain't going to have it.
00:46:03 --> 00:46:11 Do you think this country is going to call for a day of fasting or national humiliation?
00:46:12 --> 00:46:13 No, of course not.
00:46:14 --> 00:46:21 We're not in that spot anymore. So we've got to return to Him with all our hearts.
00:46:22 --> 00:46:25 And I think that's the real key for us.
00:46:25 --> 00:46:33 We've got to stop pretending that we're okay just because we go to church or we do this or we do that.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:38 And really be honest. I'll give a simple example.
00:46:39 --> 00:46:42 Screens, which we're on right now. Yeah.
00:46:45 --> 00:46:48 I just read an excellent book on this. It's not a Christian book.
00:46:49 --> 00:46:51 It is a spiritual book, I'd say.
00:46:52 --> 00:46:59 And it's all about how that these devices that we have,
00:46:59 --> 00:47:04 computers and cell phones and all these other things, these devices that we
00:47:04 --> 00:47:14 have, that were created to control nature, to control the world or us.
00:47:14 --> 00:47:16 They were created to serve us.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:23 They were created for us to control the world, whatever. And now they're controlling us.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:31 We have billionaires creating algorithms that are basically designed to keep
00:47:31 --> 00:47:35 you online all the time, as much as possible, because they make money every
00:47:35 --> 00:47:37 time you stay a little bit more online. Yeah.
00:47:38 --> 00:47:44 So that's a simple example of how the world has intruded into our world,
00:47:44 --> 00:47:47 into the church, and different things.
00:47:47 --> 00:47:51 I mean, I usually don't see people even bring their Bibles to church anymore.
00:47:51 --> 00:47:53 They just bring their cell phones.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:58 And, you know, my personal opinion here, I just don't think you can get the
00:47:58 --> 00:48:04 same thing out of a cell phone Bible that you can out of a written one.
00:48:04 --> 00:48:07 Because if you're like me, I like to make notes in it. I like to make notes.
00:48:07 --> 00:48:10 I like to underline. I like to circle things. And that one, when I come back
00:48:10 --> 00:48:12 to it again, I go, oh, yeah.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:18 And make notes about what God's trying to tell me.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:26 Not somebody else. Me. You know? Anyway.
00:48:29 --> 00:48:35 Well, if people want to know kind of more about you and any hypo,
00:48:35 --> 00:48:38 like past articles, you read, where should they go?
00:48:39 --> 00:48:45 Oh, yeah. I mean, my day job as journalists, I've had some other articles in
00:48:45 --> 00:48:46 the Christian Chronicle.
00:48:46 --> 00:48:49 I think that would be a good place to go if you want to look at those.
00:48:49 --> 00:48:54 I've written a couple on our trips, mission trips to Africa.
00:48:58 --> 00:49:01 And some other things, too, that I've written for them.
00:49:01 --> 00:49:04 I'm on the board now. I'm on the Christian Chronicle board now.
00:49:04 --> 00:49:07 I wasn't before, but I am now.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:13 But, yeah, I think we've got as a whole to really –,
00:49:13 --> 00:49:18 I think what it's going to take is for each of us who are interested in this
00:49:18 --> 00:49:23 to begin to unite with others who are interested in this and so we can all come together.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:30 I would hope and pray that we would be across denominational lines, so to speak.
00:49:33 --> 00:49:37 This doesn't need to be restricted to one particular denomination.
00:49:37 --> 00:49:43 This needs to be a movement of people to turn back to God.
00:49:44 --> 00:49:51 And we can keep fooling ourselves and having programs and getting together in churches.
00:49:52 --> 00:49:57 Read Isaiah. Isaiah 1, you know what God told his own people?
00:49:59 --> 00:50:03 About how much he hated their worship. He just wished they closed the doors.
00:50:05 --> 00:50:11 It's like, wow. So I'm just telling you, if you read the prophets and you start
00:50:11 --> 00:50:17 thinking about, not about them, but about us today, and you start realizing,
00:50:17 --> 00:50:19 man, this is talking about us.
00:50:20 --> 00:50:26 This isn't talking about 2 years ago or 1 years ago, whatever.
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 This is talking about us today. Yep.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:36 Well, Jerry, thank you so much for this. Thanks. This was a really good talk.
00:50:37 --> 00:50:39 Well, thanks, Dennis. Thanks for having me. And hopefully we'll come back again.
00:50:39 --> 00:50:43 Yeah, I'm happy to talk any time. I mean, it's a subject close to my heart.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:47 I would love, and if anyone's, you know,
00:50:48 --> 00:50:53 if anyone is interested in what we're talking about, about uniting and to try
00:50:53 --> 00:50:58 to do something about this and have him reach out to Dennis and he's,
00:50:58 --> 00:51:00 he's got my contact info and we'll,
00:51:00 --> 00:51:03 we'll start something. So sounds good to me.
00:51:04 --> 00:51:07 All right, cool. Well, thank you.
00:51:08 --> 00:51:09 Thanks, Dennis. Appreciate it.
00:51:40 --> 00:51:43 So, I will put the link to Jerry's article in the show notes.
00:51:46 --> 00:51:51 Also, just to let you know that if you ever have something that you want to
00:51:51 --> 00:51:59 say, feel free to send me a note at churchandmain, all one word, at subsect.com.
00:52:00 --> 00:52:03 If you want to learn more about the podcast or listen to past episodes,
00:52:03 --> 00:52:11 you can check us out at churchandmain.org. You can also visit churchandmain.substack.com
00:52:11 --> 00:52:12 to read related articles.
00:52:13 --> 00:52:20 I have a new one out on the problem dealing with the mainline church that you may want to read.
00:52:22 --> 00:52:26 I hope that you will consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite podcast
00:52:26 --> 00:52:31 app and that you will leave a rating or a review that helps others find the podcast.
00:52:31 --> 00:52:41 You can make a donation either on Substack or there is a link in the show notes to buy me a coffee.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:49 And also there is a link available if you would like to get the latest episode
00:52:49 --> 00:52:51 to show up in your email inbox.
00:52:53 --> 00:52:56 So that is it for this episode of Church in Maine.
00:52:56 --> 00:53:00 I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you for listening. Take care,
00:53:01 --> 00:53:04 everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.