Christian Nationalism or Christian Conservatism with Mark Tooley | Episode 195

[00:00:00] Hello, on this episode of Church and Main, we look at Christian nationalism from a conservative, evangelical perspective. That's coming up. Hello and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested in seeing where faith, politics and culture intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders your host.

[00:00:55] So today we continue our series on Christian nationalism with an interview with Mark Tooley. I actually recorded this a few months ago back there believe in March, maybe and just haven't had a chance to really put it out here until now.

[00:01:12] I think it's a lay method of this leader. He is president of the Institute for Religion and Democracy. And he actually has been an outspoken critic of Christian nationalism

[00:01:23] and saw him on Twitter, and I really wanted to talk to him more to find out more about his views on this issue. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Mark Tooley.

[00:02:11] Well, thank you for joining me this afternoon to talk about this important issue on Christian nationalism.

[00:02:18] My pleasure. So I kind of want to kind of start off with where you began on an article that you wrote regarding another article on political talking about Christian nationalism and the Trump campaign.

[00:02:34] And one of the things that you noticed about that article, and I think that this was also noticed by David French as well and a New York Times article is kind of how sometimes journalists can confuse what is being considered

[00:02:50] Christian nationalism but with what kind of be considered more Christian conservatism. And so I kind of want you to kind of in a brief kind of run down of what are the differences between the two and why do you think that journalists get those two confused?

[00:03:11] Typically journalists in secular media will target Christian nationalism for coverage or critique and they will conflate generic traditional Christian conservatism and its politics with Christian nationalism and alleged that these forces want a Christian nation that will be imposed upon non-Christians and therefore they are threatening.

[00:03:43] And these articles almost inevitably to make the distinctions that I believe exist between traditional Christian conservatism and real live self-identified Christian nationalism.

[00:03:58] So the political article that you cited targeted two people who actually do call themselves Christian Nationalists, but the article betrayed them as Christian conservatives and never actually describes what they mean when they identify as

[00:04:14] Christian nationalist. Well over the years a lot of journalists usually when they do try to talk about Christian conservatism, at least from what I've noticed, may not always look at the breath and depth of that part of Christianity and its complexities.

[00:04:34] And especially as we don't really kind of as you said kind of conflate the two and I guess my question before we kind of discuss what is Christian nationalism is why do you think that that is what it seems to me that if you did.

[00:04:50] Being trained as a journalist some good digging around that you would see some differences and see a lot of more kind of wide. Variances. And even just what is Christian nationalism and what is basically traditional kind of Christian conservatism.

[00:05:11] Why aren't journalists that good at really doing to be blunt their job? Most of these writers typically are not professional religion reporters whose numbers have been declining in recent years.

[00:05:25] They may not have very deep knowledge about American religion and various nuances between groups and typically the reporters are expert in politics and they're focusing on the political impact of those from their covering. And they're eyes and to their ears. These so-called Christian nationalists they're covering.

[00:05:47] I mean, they look like Christian conservatives and they're voting like Christian conservatives. And so that necessarily see the distinction between what they're doing and what Christian conservatists are doing 20 or 30 years ago. So they've failed to pick up on these nuance. So let's get into some definitions here then.

[00:06:07] And this is considered a Christian nationalist because I think we think of it. We may think of someone who is pro life for, again, same sex marriage but those were would probably be more Christian conservative issues.

[00:06:25] But I think from what you have discussed in your writings, Christian nationalism in some ways is something wholly different than the you're run of the middle Christian conservative.

[00:06:37] Yes, what the articles typically fail to mention is that there are people, writers, community of Christian takers and activists who do self-identify, proudly as Christian nationalist. And that included two individuals, two individuals spotlighted in the political article. And again, without explaining what they meant by Christian nationalism.

[00:07:04] Christian self-identify, Christian nationalist openly proclaim their support for some kind of Christian confessional state in America. They have directly indirectly an objection to the first amendment of the constitution and to complete religious freedom.

[00:07:23] And they believe that Christianity should be legally privileged in America with some kind of legal establishment of a church or up Christianity, whether nationally or locally. And that the government should have through its course of powers, the ability to repress,

[00:07:45] perici, apostasy and false religion. Christian conservatives, by and large, have never advocated that, and most would not today, although many of their critics in their, favors, nightmare, imagination have thought that Christian conservatives had theocratic ambitions after Jewish W Bush's reelection in 2004 with evangelical support.

[00:08:11] And there were books and articles about the supposed impending theocracy in America, which of course, ridiculous Bush was reelected with what less than 52% of the vote. And maybe half of his voters were conservative evangelicals, but very few of them were hoping for a draining of theocracy.

[00:08:34] But now we do have a real live Christian nationalist movement who do want to have they would not like to term theocracy, but they do advocate the legal establishment of Christianity in America.

[00:08:48] How influential do you think that this movement has become, I know that they seem very active on Twitter. But what do you think is their impact and where are they making?

[00:09:00] And there are admittedly a tiny percentage of the American population, so it would be easy to dismiss them as merely a provocative online presence.

[00:09:11] But I think political was right to spotlight these two self-identified Christian nationalist both in whom had served in the Trump administration and hope to return in another Trump administration.

[00:09:23] One of whom had a well-funded tank in Washington, the other one just started up a new group within the southern Baptist Convention. The Christian nationalist self-identified are almost always very educated articulate. They produce a lot of material online.

[00:09:47] Their influence is potentially beyond their numbers in that they have a lot of zeal and energy and a bracing message that is especially attractive to young Christian men who are alarmed by growing secularization in America, and who see older Christian leaders as being squishy or ineffective.

[00:10:12] And so this message of Christian nationalism with an established church in America, although it seems politically absurd, it can be electrifying for them.

[00:10:22] And I think to their minds, well, maybe this is unlikely in your future but who knows we're on such a disastrous social course, if society does collapse, we will be standing there and mid the ruins offering the answers for the next civilization.

[00:10:39] And so you talked a little bit about an influence at least some way in the southern Baptist Convention. Do they have any influence in any other more evangelical or conservative denominations?

[00:10:51] Most of the self-identified Christian nationalist are not southern Baptist. They tend to be Presbyterian. They're all reformed and Calvinists and lift up his models, Calvin's Geneva and the 1500s are pure to New England in the 1600s.

[00:11:14] Baptists, as you know, traditional A.R. ardent supporters of full religious freedom, Baptist obviously were persecuted by the established church in England in the 1600s and even in colonial America in the 1700s. So they always oppose the established church.

[00:11:31] So it's a little bit odd for Baptists to advocate for an established form of Christianity, but interestingly the two figures spotlighted in political, both of them are Baptist.

[00:11:44] Most of the articulators of Christian nationalism are Presbyterian, often in the Orthodox Presbyterian church which is a small, very conservative Presbyterian denomination.

[00:11:56] And the one serious book advocating for Christian nationalism is called a case for Christian nationalism by Stephen Wolf, who is a serious thinker and writer about 400 pages articulating his perspective on historic, reformed political theology. And I'm pretty sure Wolf is a Presbyterian.

[00:12:22] And is there any type of concern in some of those denominations about the, at these thinkers and their role or do they have any type of influence in any of these denominations or, or just kind of alone voice?

[00:12:41] Well the question is, do to what extent do denominations matter anymore? Even people who are in denominations do you look to the leadership of your denomination for guidance and counsel on public policy issues?

[00:12:55] So the fact that these Christian nationalists are online will there are far more influential there than they would be as official leaders within their denominations. So you, etc. in the article and political, it leads about two of these leaders and we talked about Stephen Wolf.

[00:13:18] What other thinkers and leaders are there out there that you're aware of?

[00:13:23] Maybe the major online outlet for Christian nationalist views would be American reformer, which is an online community that post intelligent articles advocating for what they would often call a magisterial Protestantism or they would simply call it sometimes political Protestantism.

[00:13:47] Because they would say this is historic magisterial Protestant teaching. So we're not radical or extreme. We're just articulating what the Protestant reformers advocated for in the 1500s and 1600s nothing new coming from us.

[00:14:02] And so again they have a lot of young men putting out daily articles in American reformer whose editor is somebody I know when I call him my friend and me, we're friendly but strongly disagree named to Mone Klein who was an attorney in New Jersey now as the editor of American reformer.

[00:14:25] So what is do you think they're overall influence within kind of the Trump campaign? Is it or there's been some role in the Trump first Trump administration? What role do you see in the Trump campaign so far?

[00:14:43] So if so much in the Trump campaign but certainly in the new post-liberal environment in America on well not just on the right but certainly on the right we're traditional conservatory priorities of limiting the size and scope of government are being as you would have found in the Reagan years for example, or being set aside as Casse and the post-liberal right.

[00:15:12] Although they were championing themselves as American patriots often they're not very enthusiastic about traditional American founding principles often they don't like the Declaration of Independence and its promise of fully quality for all people.

[00:15:30] Sometimes they will claim they support the US Constitution all I was interested to see an online creature recently specifically denounced the First Amendment because if it's a promise of the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association etc etc.

[00:15:48] and obstacle to Christian America. So I think the influence for Christian nationalist comes through this new post-liberal environment in which they can insinuate themselves in wider post-liberal conservative or right-wing circles and have the influence through them.

[00:16:11] Do you see them having influence regardless of whether Trump wins a second term or not? Yes because if Biden wins a reelection there'll be a sense of obviously anger and even panic among many Christians on the right.

[00:16:36] So there again that's an opportunity for the Christian nationals to say well we told you so liberal democracy is not working we need to look towards an alternative. Do you see this as or is it in a way threatening to the Christian witness as a whole?

[00:16:57] Because I think that you could see this as something that obviously can be translated to say that well this is how Christians think. Can it be a damage to kind of the overall Christian witness?

[00:17:12] Yes so these are the fruits of social media where you gain following and attention for being a provocative and outrageous and provoking your adversaries. And so for years progressives criticize Christian conservatives for being supposedly theocratic and wanting to take over America with a coercive form of Christianity.

[00:17:40] I think the Christian nationals have been a great delight in saying oh was a matter of fact you're right.

[00:17:48] We do want to take over America and we do want to impose Christianity and we do want this confessional state and we do want to legally punish you for not cooperating with our perspective on Christianity.

[00:18:02] So that gives them I think a great energy and excitement to fulfill the last worst nightmares about Christians on the right.

[00:18:13] So I think one of the things that I've been wondering also in kind of moving forward is what does this look like and how I don't want to say how do you confront it because I think that that's. It may work and may not work but.

[00:18:33] In your kind of discussions with people how do you kind of converse with them and how do you learn from them but also challenge them. The Christian nationalist.

[00:18:49] Typically as I say they are young Christian man who are very earnest and looking for genuine answers to real problems in America so they shouldn't just be dismissed as a malevolent or having ill will.

[00:19:04] They are sincere people looking for real answers and so I think you need to give them some sense of encouragement and optimism about our. Republic and that the Declaration of Independence promise of.

[00:19:18] Freedom inequality for all people is worth the defending it was came out of profoundly Christian insights and the constitution is in many ways the guardian of the promises of.

[00:19:32] Declaration and has worked fairly well across three centuries compared to other societies and that Christians and others came to the realization that a society.

[00:19:46] The no specific religion is established and imposed prevents a lot of unnecessary conflict prevents tyranny and allowing freedom for individuals to make their own choices about religion and allowing a certain form of pluralism.

[00:20:05] Is best for social harmony and enabling very diverse people to work together for the betterment of all.

[00:20:13] Why do you think that these young men see Christian nationalism as an answer it seem you're regarding a there are certain things that they seem to not be going well in their life and they see this as kind of a lifeline.

[00:20:27] What do you think that they look to that as the life. Will they like many other Americans sometimes imagine they're living in the very worst of times and as somewhat as older than they and I have memories of the early 1970s having.

[00:20:42] Growing up in Washington DC and remember least vaguely the Vietnam war among other situations across the last 50 years and how much better people lived today than they did even in my child.

[00:20:56] So I think if you're older perhaps you're somewhat indoctulated against the idea that you're living in the very worst of times although we've us to admit there are older people in America today who have often an apocalyptic attitude about where the country is going and.

[00:21:13] Again the concerns and the problems are often very legitimate but under polarization where people no longer have a common sources of information and conversation but are siled into their own world view which can reinforce your very worst fears and the young Christian nationalists are very much so.

[00:21:36] Apart of that, they listen to each other, they reinforce each other and they are often convinced that those who were against them are completely diluted if not be a levelant.

[00:21:48] But as you know, that's not true for Christian Nationalists, your people across the religious and political spectrum living in their silos, who imagine the very worst about people disagree with them and will not listen to them.

[00:22:03] I kind of like to look a little bit more about how the wider culture is looking at Christian Nationalism, just to get your opinion on this, is obviously since January 6th and what happened on the insurrection of the capital that's kind of brought about all the interests, especially on Christian Nationalism.

[00:22:25] And I think my question would be, is that focus on it? Do you think that's overblown or is it kind of just right and talking about what's going on in this movement? Is it where does it need to be improved?

[00:22:43] In terms of how Christian Nationalism related to January 6th. In how is it's way to January 6th, but even just overall news coverage and discussion about it?

[00:22:55] Will ideally journalists would examine Christian Nationalism more substantively and dig into what it actually stands for, which to my mind is disturbing. But what they propose is intellectually serious and should be treated seriously.

[00:23:13] And it's not fair to just slam all, generically conservative Christians, even no matter how much you may disagree with them is being Christian Nationalist.

[00:23:25] You may disagree with how conservative Christians are voting or what they advocate for but they aren't necessarily for some kind of, and almost certainly or not, for some kind of a theoretical, confesional state in America.

[00:23:41] But as I say, even though the vast majority of Christian conservatives are not even aware of Christian nationalism much less subscribed to it.

[00:23:50] It could be that they might be susceptible to some of the arguments that really emerge from a despair about our democracy and a despair about the ability of people who differ to live together with mutual forbearance and tolerance.

[00:24:07] And to think that will perhaps democracy is not functional after all and we need to look at alternatives that's scary to imagine that many Americans could come to that understanding and despondency about our country.

[00:24:22] So that's why it's so important for us to counter what Christian Nationalists and other post-lerbills are proposing.

[00:24:32] What do you think is the best message for countering that message? Because I think you're keying on something that's important is that sense of despair, which obviously it's not just limited to people who choose Christian Nationalism but also those that choose other options that there's a lot of despair in our society especially about wondering if democracy can work.

[00:24:58] So what do you think are remedies that can provide people basically hope? We're going to talk into young Christians who are who are susceptible to Christian nationalism.

[00:25:09] I try to point out that classical liberalism, which embodies the principles of America's founding of democracy, human rights, religious freedom, legally quality for all.

[00:25:22] This is part of our religious heritage. It emerged from English and Dutch Protestantism in the 1600s. It was a rebuttal to the religious conflicts and tyrannies of the 1600s. And it was a marvelous realization and compromise from which we have been tremendous beneficiaries.

[00:25:42] And so we who are Christian especially, who are Protestant rather than being ungrateful for this legacy should be the responsible stewards and guardians of this tradition of classical liberalism, democracy and human rights, religious freedom for all people.

[00:25:59] In terms of talking to others who are not Christian Nationalists but who are very pessimistic and even apocalyptic, I think that we need to get a grip and to be more grateful for how much we do have.

[00:26:13] We still have a largely stable society. We are living better than people of ever lived before larger homes, safer cars, working fewer hours, safer food, eating out more, traveling more than any other people and human history.

[00:26:31] How did all of these riches and securities results? Well, we have a lot to be grateful for and our democracy has remained despite all of the tensions that incredibly functional and certainly shines in comparison to other regimes around the world that seemed to be resurgent, whether in China or in Russia or elsewhere.

[00:26:57] Certainly we do not want to look to them and we want to cherish what we have. What if people would like to contact you or learn a little bit more, where should they go? They can go to our IUD website, which is tag.org.

[00:27:16] They can see our founding statement from 1980 where one called Christianity and democracy which articulates our basic premise. They might check out our new Wigiri program, Wigiri of course emerged in the 1600s and basically was the founder of classical liberalism.

[00:27:37] And they might also check out the Providence or our Journal of Christian Realism that also addresses these issues. All right, whom artility, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today on this important topic and hopefully we can talk again.

[00:27:54] Thank you, Dennis. I appreciate your reaching out. All right. So what did you think of the conversation? What do you think of Mark Tuley's views on Christian nationalism?

[00:28:38] I'd love to hear what you are thinking about this. So feel free to drop me a line. You can send it to the email of church and main at subspect.com. If you want to learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes or donate.

[00:28:55] Feel free to check us out at church and main.org. And you can also go to church and main.substec.com to read related articles. I hope that you will subscribe to our onto the podcast on your favorite podcast app.

[00:29:11] And wherever you listen to church and main, I hope you'll leave a review. That review actually helps others find this podcast and I'd love to have more listeners. Also consider passing this episode along to a family and friend.

[00:29:29] Grab the link and share it with someone that you know. So that's it for this episode of Church and Main. I'm Dennis Sanders your host. As I always say, thank you so much for listening. Take care. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon. Thank you.