I engage with Tessa Pinkstaff, program manager at Luther Seminary and co-author of "Leading Faithful Innovation, Following God into a Hopeful Future." We explore the spiritual practice of "dwelling in the Word," emphasizing its role in revitalizing congregations through a contemplative approach to Scripture. Tessa shares her journey into faith, detailing how community and lived experiences of spirituality shape deeper connections with God. We discuss how this practice, akin to Lectio Divina, invites communal listening and reflection, fostering humility among church leaders and enhancing collective engagement.
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Related Episodes:
Congregational Renewal Through Listening with Liz Eide | Episode 210
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[0:11] Music.
[0:37] Hello, and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in seeing where faith, politics, and culture intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. My guest today is Tessa Pinkstaff. Tessa works at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota, as a program manager for the Faith Lead Academy. She's also the co-author of Leading Faithful Innovation, Following God into a Hopeful Future, which was published by Fortress Press in 2023. On the show today, we talk about the spiritual practice of dwelling in the Word, what it's all about, and how it can help in the revitalization of our congregations. So, without further ado, here's Tessa Pinkstaff.
[1:22] Music.
[1:39] Well, Tessa, thank you for taking the time to chat today. I'm sorry. We were scheduled actually to do this a week ago and things kind of got a little wonky. So I'm glad we're finally able to meet with the chat. Same. I'm very grateful to be here and I'm delighted that we were able to reschedule. And you know what, Dennis, it was worth the wait. Good. So I think that, you know, why I wanted to always like to start is to learn a little bit about your faith background, kind of, um.
[2:12] Did you grow up in the church? Did you come to faith later? What was your background that led you to where you are now? Yeah. Thanks, Dennis. I really like this question. I sometimes say, somewhat jokingly, but it's true, that I came to the party a little bit late. I didn't necessarily grow up in the church, although my mom was a Christian and she taught Bible stories to me and to my sister. So I had what I would say is some exposure, but we did not go to church. She had had a difficult experience in the church when she was young, and it just influenced the involvement that she wanted us to have as kids. So while I had a basic, basic understanding, I think my first real exposure to serious Christianity came when I went to college. So I was at the University of Minnesota, the Twin Cities campus, and I got involved with what was then known as Christian Student Fellowship. It's now Anselm House. And I actually got baptized through that ministry. So I was a bit of a blank slate, but I jumped in with both feet and I haven't looked back.
[3:24] So how did your mom respond to that? Because knowing her background, was she hesitant or hopeful or how does she feel? You know, she was actually all in. And the part of the story that I don't usually tell is that she got re-baptized with me when I got, I know she came to the campus and got baptized again. And for her, it was sort of a second beginning. Okay. So I think it ended up, I think that my jumping in and becoming part of a church family was sort of redemptive for her in a way and helped her to see the church in a different light. Hmm. Okay. So how did you kind of going from that end up where you are kind of focusing on the spiritual practices?
[4:13] I kind of remember hearing something from a podcast about you that, you know, your faith kind of went through changes, like a lot of people's faith. How did it kind of end up to where you were kind of fascinated about?
[4:29] Kind of spiritual practices. Yeah. So my faith journey is closely dovetailed with my education because I started my Christian journey in earnest at the University of Minnesota. From there, I actually left the U like so many people. I went for a few years. It's a big space. It was challenging to navigate there. And as a new Christian, I was looking for some more intensive training on my faith because I admittedly didn't know very much. So I ended up at what was then Northwestern College in St. Paul, now the University of Northwestern St. Paul, and that's where I finished my degree. So the changes that I encountered sort of have, my faith has shifted based on which institution I'm at and kind of what I pick up along the way. So when I got to Northwestern, as I already said, I was a bit of a blank slate. So I kind of learned a specific way of understanding God from that institution. Now, was that the right thing at that time? Absolutely. Would I do the same thing all over again? Absolutely. But after being there and kind of learning the theology that I learned there, later when I made the decision to go to seminary, I ended up at Bethel. And so there were some things that began to change. One of those was my view of women in ministry. I mean, I went from a very conservative view of that to, obviously, as somebody who preaches and teaches, a much more egalitarian view.
[5:54] But even my understanding of who God is and my belief that I am able to fully grasp who God is, that has been the thing that has changed the most. I think my whole understanding of God and my humility in saying, I don't know very much. The more I learn about God, the less I realize I actually know. That has changed as I have been at Bethel and then worked at Luther and been in different church communities and seeing what else is going on beyond the very narrow, and that's pretty normal, the very narrow view that I started out with. Yeah. So, I mean, I find that fascinating of that sense of knowing, but yet not knowing everything about God.
[6:44] Because I think we kind of, at least what I remember growing up is that you could know a lot about God, but there sometimes wasn't always the wonder. Oh, yes. that was up there, and maybe even a sense of humility that we can't know everything about God. That sometimes in some, not in all traditions, I don't want to, I'm not here to slam traditions, but sometimes it's not always present.
[7:18] That's what I'm kind of getting at. I refer to that as embracing the mystery. I mean, God is both knowable, God is knowable through the revelation of Jesus, through God's word, but God is also unknowable. And I think in some ways, there is a beautiful invitation there for us to lean in, that God is inviting us to come closer because God is not fully discernible and everything that we learn about God is just inviting us deeper into that mystery. Mm-hmm. Okay. So when you kind of say that kind of embracing in that kind of mystery, is it also embracing kind of entering into more of like an experience than just kind of a head knowledge type thing? Yes. And you segued that beautifully. I wanted to make sure that I addressed
[8:04] the rest of your question, which was about the spiritual practices. So I think that that is a natural outflow of that. Now, you asked specifically about how I encountered the practices. And I just want to give a shout out to Scott Strand from Bethel, because he taught a course that I took while I was studying there in the seminary about spiritual practices. And as a Protestant, as a conservative-leaning Protestant, it was the first time that I had encountered centering prayer and different types of meditation and the Ignatian examen. And I was floored at how these tools were so helpful in helping me to experience God directly.
[8:44] And I actually took two classes with Scott and I thought, this is amazing. Do other people know about this? And so I started to talk with people in my church community and other people at Bethel. And a lot of the looks that I got were sort of blank, like, oh, I don't really know about those things. The other thing that I was exposed to at that same time was silence retreats and silence and solitude as a practice, which for many of us feels like a very Catholic idea. And yet there's beauty in that for all areas of the Christian tradition. So as I was experiencing and encountering these things for myself for the first time and realizing how these were an avenue for me to deeply connect with God and to, as you just said, move beyond head knowledge and drop into this heart experience, I thought, why can't we have both? Our church just do such a great job of teaching us intellectually. Our seminaries do a great job of that. We know intellectually we can spout things and doctrines and theology that we say we understand about God, but do we actually have a lived experience? And that's what the practices do. They make it real. They make it real. And so I became so enthusiastic about this idea of the both end. We learn, we move forward in our intellectual understanding, and at the same time, we cultivate this actual lived experience.
[10:12] And that kind of leads me into the whole dwelling in the Word. And I want to kind of talk about how you found that practice. My church where I am pastor, we started doing that this fall for our weekly Bible study. So the way I've kind of done it is that we take a passage and we'll stick with that for like a month and look at that over and over again. And there are a lot of different things that I've noticed from that whole experience. And one is that usually when I would try to prepare for a Bible study, it's kind of doing all the studying, getting everything, all the knowledge out there. And then a lot of it is imparting the knowledge to everyone else.
[11:12] This time, it's a little bit different. Not as much doing all the studying. It's really reading and it feels different in that.
[11:23] There is knowledge coming in and out of that, but it's different in many different ways. But it's also how it really does kind of, I think, weld a lot the lived experience of people's lives and how does that work through that passage.
[11:43] And it's fascinating seeing that over the weeks, how it works in people in different ways. There's not a question there, but it's an observation of how that has worked over the last, you've done it since September, how that has worked. It was just kind of fascinating. I love that. I mean, you've highlighted two really important aspects of dwelling, which is this idea of the priesthood of all believers, that everybody has access to God's word and God speaks to everybody through God's word. And then this other idea that the pastor is not necessarily the expert. I mean, when we come to the text in dwelling, we are coming with a posture of humility. We are not the expert, but the Spirit is the expert, and the Spirit is speaking directly through the text. This is how God's Word becomes living and active. I mean, there's so much power in Scripture, and this is one way to access that power. And it's not a divinely mystical thing, but it can be, but it can be. But really, it's just a very careful listening practice, listening to each other as we talk about the text, listening to the Spirit as the Spirit is leading each individual person. And then there's sort of the collective group experience of how does all of that fit together. Mm-hmm.
[13:05] Yeah, I think it probably would help because I know that there might be people who haven't really heard of this, is how to best explain dwelling in the Word. Yeah, and I'm happy to do that because this is one of my favorite practices and it's something that I lead every week myself. I do an online version with pastors in the US and Canada and Europe, and we have created this beautifully cohesive group. But before I get into that, yes, I want to say a little bit more about what dwelling is. So if you're not familiar with what this practice is, it is a variation on Lectio Divina. And if you're not familiar with that, But what Lectio is, is it is an ancient way of reading scripture where you do a deep meditation on a text. I love, Dennis, that you are spending a significant amount of time in one passage because that is such a beautiful thing to do. You really get the fullness of the practice when you do that.
[14:01] But traditional Lectio has four movements. It's got reading, meditation, prayer, and contemplation. So when we talk about dwelling, what we're talking about is a simplified version. And I want to give credit where credit is due. The version that we use comes from the Church Innovations Institute, and I think they've changed their name. Now they're the Center for Church Innovation. And I don't know this for certain, but they may have been one of the first to use the dwelling word. I don't, you know, calling it that. Even so, though, the method that we used was definitely created by them. And so instead of the four movements, which take quite a bit of time, they pared it down to prayer. So you start with prayer, and then you read the text twice, and you pause for silence in between the readings to allow people time to absorb the text. And then you answer three questions. And Dennis, I don't know if this is the way you're doing it, but the way that we do it is three questions. What catches your attention in the text? What questions does the text raise for you? And then what might God be saying to you through the text?
[15:05] Now, you can do this individually. You can just do this yourself. Often this is practiced in a group setting. And so after you hear the text twice, you pair people up and then they share with each other. And then when you do the large group debrief, they are actually invited to share what they heard their partner say. So not only are you listening carefully to what the Spirit is speaking to you, you then listen to your partner, and then you have to listen well enough to communicate that with the rest of the group. So there's multiple layers of listening and discerning and resting in the text and spending lots of time in meditation. So that's a shorthand version of the version that I'm familiar with and the one that I do. Is that similar to how you do it? It's somewhat similar, yes. Yeah. Yeah. We usually have started with prayer and read it twice. Yeah. Kind of a little bit of a pause and then spend the time on the question. And the questions are very similar to what you just shared. Yep.
[16:04] Now, sometimes, and I just want to throw this out for your listeners, sometimes it can be very valuable to use two different translations of the text. The one that I do on Tuesdays, we use the same, we use the New Revised Standard Version. But when I lead this in other places where I do this practice, I like to use sometimes the message which combined with the NRSV or the NIV combined with the New Living Translation, something, two very different types of translations. And I have found that sometimes that opens the text up even a little bit more for folks.
[16:37] How has that, having those two different versions, how has that opened it up just to see something that they may have not seen in another version? I find that sometimes hearing the text in two very different voices, obviously we got different people reading the text too, which is also helpful, but hearing two different types of language sometimes clarifies things that aren't clear in the first reading, or a different turn of phrase might resonate more with one person than another.
[17:11] I think that sometimes you get a depth of conversation that's even bigger when you have different translations. Now, again, you're not going really deep into one, and that can have its own value. But especially when you have folks who aren't as familiar with Scripture, it can be a little more inviting for them to hear a more traditional translation and then a more invitational or accessible translation at the same time because they're going to feel like there's a little bit more that they can latch on to. So yeah, I, I have actually heard people say, well, in this one, I wasn't sure, but then when I heard this one, Oh, it made me think of this. And so I like having those two things juxtaposed together. Okay.
[17:55] So, I'm kind of curious, have you heard stories of how either individuals or churches that have used this practice, what impact it has had on their communities? And it may not be necessarily a major impact, but how has it made a difference for them? Yeah, I'm going to do a shameless plug, and I'm going to plug the book that I wrote. because I do want to say that we did highlight some of these in the second chapter of our book, Leading Faithful Innovation. And I'll just say in general, in general, I have found and heard and experienced myself that what this practice does in congregations is that it helps people focus their attention on God and not necessarily their own expectations or needs. And so I'll say a little more about this. So the way that it's often used is at a start of a council meeting or at the start of a meeting where some important business is going to be decided, or a lot of Bible studies will use it. But anytime that you've got a group that's doing something difficult or change is happening, I know we may be talking a little bit about transition here too.
[19:07] Whenever there is a potential for conflict, this text reading practice is so helpful because it takes people out of themselves a little bit. And if you do it in community, it's helping people, number one, to focus on the word and community, which is always a good thing. It helps sort of set the tone for whatever you're going to talk about. I actually use this practice as a little aside, but I use this practice, I'm training to be a spiritual director. And I actually use this practice at the opening of my sessions to help just set the tone to remind us that God is present with us. Sometimes the text itself can lead directly into the conversation. But in a group setting, this practice helps people become better aligned with what God is doing. It helps them to focus on God's desires. It helps them to hear, what is God inviting me into? It makes them curious. Just as we were talking about at the beginning, this idea of wonder. And then they start to look at things differently. And if you are in an environment where you are trying to do serious work, which we often are in our churches, if you are coming in with a posture of wonder and curiosity, you are going to be a lot more open to what's happening than if you come in, well, I've got this plan, I've got this agenda. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing.
[20:24] I'm heard so many stories about churches trying this, just as you're doing, and seeing the change that it makes in their congregations when they start to just be open. I don't know. Is any of that, the way I'm describing this, does this resonate with anything? I know you've just been doing this for a little bit, but does this resonate with your experience? It does a little bit. We did do this once for a board meeting and, I'm thinking we may want to do it again because there's a lot of contentious stuff that we're dealing with that is helpful. And so, yeah, I think it does help because I think it, I think too often, especially when there are things like church board meetings, we can focus too much on the business aspect and not the spiritual, and this might remind us this is why we're here. Yeah. And kind of invite God to that. Yeah. I mean, it's a subtle shift that takes place inside us, but it makes a big difference. I'm imagining you've got a compass and various degrees of movement. Just the slightest movement can take you on such a different trajectory, right? And so that's how I see this practice operating. It just shifts your attention just slightly enough, but it puts you on a completely different path.
[21:50] So, you know, when I kind of first heard about you, it was kind of talking about
[21:57] in churches and innovation and churches in transition. Yeah. And lots of churches, especially post-COVID, are in a transition phase. So how do you think this—and it's not just dwelling in the Word, but other practices can help churches when they are in transition, and kind of helping them maybe to see something that they haven't been able to see before.
[22:31] How does that happen? I really love this question, and it's so timely with what's happening in the church world, in the world at large. I mean, we are in a period of polarization, tumultuous change on every level. The church, I think, is still finding its footing post-COVID. And I feel like we're on the cusp of something very new, a new way of being church entirely. So I think that there are some who have more of a vision for that, for what that's going to be. I think that it's going to become clear to all of us in the coming years. So I just want to say that at the outset. And then I want to name that any kind of change, good, bad, neutral, any kind of change involves a kind of loss, right?
[23:19] And whether the change is good, whether the change is bad, whether the change is neutral, when people experience loss of any kind, even if it's moving into something wonderful, there's still going to be a loss of something that they leave behind. And so you are facing an environment where people are anxious. They're not at their best. They're wondering what's going to happen. They can be fearful. And there's probably some grief that they need to attend to, even if the change is good. And so in my mind, well, what dwelling, we'll start with dwelling. What dwelling does is it helps build community. It helps build community among people with competing visions, with different ideas, people who are nervous about the future.
[24:02] I'm going to plug my dwelling webcast again on Tuesdays. It's Tuesdays at noon. It's through FaithLead. We started that practice right before the pandemic. We started in 2019. I was invited to lead. It was a new group. We did it online, but we had no idea what kind of a lifeline it was going to become for the pastors who were involved. And what I have seen in that group, and we have a broad diversity of all kinds. We've got conservative pastors. We've got lay leaders. We've got pastors from more liberal congregations. Huge spectrum of folks. But what we've been able to do in that group, because we do this practice, is create an environment where people, if you threw them into a room, they might not agree or get along. But we've learned through talking through scripture with each other how to be respectful, how to disagree. It seems like it's a little tiny snapshot, a snapshot of what the kingdom is going to look like. And I have watched people who I know are really on opposite ends of the spectrum, start to have community with each other. And so that is, that dwelling is just one practice that creates community through the practice, through the actual practice itself.
[25:19] The other one that I want to mention though is lament, since you said I could have more than one practice here.
[25:25] Lament is something that I think our churches don't do enough. And I think that in times of change, I know you see you're agreeing there. In times of change, I think this practice is so important for the grief that we need to process. I mean, this post-COVID and post-losing some of the things that we care about in our churches, but we're losing them for the greater good, I think that there needs to be some communal lament around that, some sort of a practice to allow people to express what they're feeling and then come together as a community to say, we're going to grieve this and we're going to lay it aside and we're going to trust God because lament always ends with what? It ends with praise. Mm-hmm. Well, the reason I kind of shook my head is I'm kind of part of this fellow in this project of grouping of pastors, which strangely enough is from across the religious spectrum, from liberal to conservative. Yeah. So that's also been interesting. But one of our assignments is doing preaching on the Psalms. And so we had a whole list of songs and the first one that I have to I haven't written it yet I have it in my head yet now but is Lament um and and Lament actually.
[26:46] Is probably going to be one that will be I won't say easy but it's it's more accessible because you know my um mother passed away in february um so you know that kind of brings that um to that so and i think you're right we don't really talk about lament much um because we associated that it's all sad and it is, but it doesn't end in sadness. The psalm that I chose and all of the laments don't end in a, they're not a downer.
[27:29] They may be down, but they don't end there. They end in hope and end in hope in God. So yeah, I think that there's, that is a practice. I mean, I don't know how best to practice lament, but I think it's something we need to do more of. I have heard of some congregations writing as a group. Again, it depends on how your congregation is structured, how this would work, but writing a lament psalm that reflects the congregation or individuals writing their own laments and presenting those. There's just some various ways to do this that allow people this personal expression. It's sort of spiritual storytelling but in a different way yeah yeah and i what i what i appreciate so much about the lament psalm practice is that it's i think it's a good corrective for this idea that sometimes crops up in our churches that well we're christians we're meant to be joyful all the time but that isn't well i mean i've been i know but i know what world is that to happen well it's it's if it is happening, it's not authentic. It's not authentic because God is the God of heartbreak as well as joy.
[28:44] And if we are to be the people that we truly are in community, then we have to mourn with those who mourn as well as rejoice with those who rejoice. And I think if our churches embrace lament more, there would be a better balance, that it wouldn't be just, well, you're going to be fine. God's good. Everything's going to be fine. Well, yes, and what I'm feeling is very Jesus wept. Jesus knew that he was going to resurrect Lazarus and it was all going to be okay, and yet he still wept.
[29:12] So it's real. He was also the one that said, my God, my God, while forsaken me. Yes, yes. Probably the most familiar lament. Yes, yes. But to get back to your question just about the practices in general, all kinds of prayer, all of these things are helpful in community. Because they, what do practices do? They focus our attention on God.
[29:39] I wrote and I say frequently that the practices are tools that place us in God's presence so that God can do transforming work within us. And if we are being transformed, then we are better able to catch God's vision and navigate the transitions because we are trusting that God is leading us.
[30:01] It kind of reminds me of the.
[30:05] I've been reading a lot of several books from Andy Root. Yeah. From Luther. And I think the thing that it always reminds me about is that this is not all on us. We're not alone on this. But I think in our culture, we're trained to believe that it is all on us. It's not. I'm glad it's not. Amen to that. Now, that's not to say that it's easy because it's not easy. And sometimes it takes just as much energy to keep our focus on God than it does to do it ourselves. But the benefit of attending to what God is doing and paying attention to that, the blessings from that are so much greater than if we're trying to do it in our own energy and probably failing in our own energy. So you know one of the things that um i heard you once say and this was again on my colleague's podcast is that you said that the church is the bearer of god's redemption redemptive mission in the world and how do you see the the practices help people live that out um because again it kind of leads back to that whole thing about kind of transition and transformation in churches is that I think we're trying to find an identity or trying to find out who we are.
[31:31] So how do these practices kind of help us to live out that statement? Yeah, because it's a great question. How do they fit? Because there are churches that don't really embrace the practices. And so where do they come in? I'm really glad that you're asking this. The church, and I want to be clear that I'm talking about the capital C, you know, Big C Church. I mean, this is the institution that God created, right? And it's the institution that God has chosen to work in and through and with to transform the world.
[32:04] And the church offers this vision of what God's reign is going to look like. So that's what I mean by the church is the bearer of God. God's whole redemptive mission is bringing humanity and creation back into right relationship, right? And so the church is the way that God is doing that out in the world. So...
[32:28] And I just want to add one more thing. This vision is beautiful. Ideally, it involves love and kindness and generosity and mercy. So how it connects to the spiritual practices is, again, this idea of the practices being tools that God can use to transform us. They're not ends in and of themselves. We don't elevate the practices to, well, I did this and I'm holy. I did my prayer checklist and now God loves me more. That's not how this works. But at the same time, there is something that happens as we are in God's presence, as we are praying, as we are reading scripture, as we are in community with each other, God is changing us. And I love the idea of we obtain the mind of Christ as we are transformed. And when we do that, we are better able to understand God's vision for the world. The things that God desires become the things that we desire. And so the practices, I don't even think I can overstate this. The practices are the means that make God's work in the world possible because they change us so that we have that vision and we join God in that work. And that's how they help us to understand what God is doing. That's how I see it. Hmm.
[33:45] That had brought up an observation, where does the concept of waiting fit into all of this? Because it seems like that, that a lot of this with the practices, whether it's dwelling in the Word or on others, is really in some ways asking us to be still in a culture where we don't.
[34:10] So how does that fit? Yeah. Letting God be God and letting us be where we are supposed to be, making sure that those two arenas are clear. Yes, the practices are slow, lifelong. This isn't, I'm going to pray and now God's going to answer me and now I'm going to understand everything I need to understand and everything's good. No, this is, we are invited on this journey, this lifelong journey with God. And the practices slow us down because it's not a do this, then this reaction, which is what we're so used to in the world. I post this thing. I get my likes, whatever it is. I'm probably saying that wrong because I'm actually not on social media. So forgive me if I totally messed that up. But we're sort of an instant gratification culture. And the practices, exactly as you said, invite us to be still. We sit with the text in dwelling. We sit with the Psalms. We pray and we wait. We don't try to solve these things ourselves. We ask for God's guidance. And so many of the practices are about sitting and waiting. Sabbath. Sabbath is a great practice. Put your work aside. How hard is that for us to do? Put your work aside. Spend a half a day or a full day, whatever you can do, waiting on God and listening and resting and don't worry about tomorrow. Wow. Can we actually do that? We can with practice.
[35:36] But it takes time to get comfortable enough to be still.
[35:41] So that's kind of a long, meandering answer to a short question. But the practices are, by their very nature, the way that they're designed, they're reflective, they're introspective, they're sitting with God, they're quiet.
[35:54] I mean, worship, although worship is a practice too, worship doesn't have to be quiet. But worship is about committing ourselves to the moment and being fully present with God in that moment. and all the other things that are going around in our week and our day, we're leaving those at the door or it's good for us to so that we can be present with the community. So again, that's also a slowness in some way.
[36:17] So if there are people who are parts of congregations, maybe they're pastors, they're fascinated by all of this and don't know where to start, where should they go or how should they start? Any tips you would give them? Yeah, that's great because I think that there are a lot of people in different pockets of different congregations that think, oh, I'd like to try this, but I don't know what to do. I mean, I will say that one place that they can start, I'll start with myself. They can start with me. I have a website that they can visit and they can connect with me and I can start to resource them. Practicesforlife.org is my ministry. And I have ideas for different tools. And I actually do this on multiple levels. I have gone into churches and resourced congregations working through the pastor. So I think that's a great way to start. If someone in a congregation is interested in learning more about this, they might start talking to their pastor and say, hey, what do you know about this? And then if the pastor doesn't know or isn't as receptive, the congregation member can learn about the practices, start to try them, assemble a group if they know other people that are interested. Sometimes that's a grassroots way to get things started. And then maybe let the pastor know, hey, we're trying this thing. What do you think? And see if they can get the pastor on board.
[37:42] Otherwise, like I said, I work with both. I work directly with pastors who are interested. There's actually a network. I don't know if you know John Mark Comer. He is, yeah, I was just out in Portland in September attending his conference. He is another, he's the West Coast spiritual practices guy. And he has a ton of resources, too, for congregations and leaders. So he's another one. Um, in terms of, uh, great books to read, Richard Foster's Celebration of Discipline is one of the classic books. Um, and then I like Adele Alberg Calhoun's, um, Spiritual Practices Handbook. That is, that's the gold standard. Any practice that you can possibly think of is in there and, and adaptations. So if you are totally new to this, that is a brilliant resource. It will answer many of your questions. And then the community piece is what's so important here. Practicing these things in isolation is difficult and not necessarily how they're designed. They're meant to be practiced in community. So whether that's in your church or a community of people pulled from various places, people that you know, find who can journey with you and do this. Okay yeah i mean i think going back to dwelling in the word that has that really is a group.
[39:00] Exercise yes yes yes how we all learn from each other and i mean i think going back to that again is that it i think i think the way that pastors sometimes that we have perceived ourselves is that we have to be the expert yes spiritual expert and And.
[39:20] So there is some of that there, but I think that sometimes, in some cases, we're more either a facilitator or guide. You know, we don't have all the answers. We're on the journey too. Just like, yeah. Yeah, we have some theological training and there are some things that we've spent some time learning, which I will say is very helpful to the community.
[39:45] But there is a priesthood of all believers and we are there to shepherd and guide, just as you said. Um, I think, uh, I think that we are going to see a further shift. You know, churches have been led by pastors almost exclusively for quite a long period of the church's history. And the language that we are using at Faith Lead, uh, and, and, oh, I should plug Faith Lead as well. Faith Lead is another great, faithlead.org is another great resource. Um, I actually, I actually have designed a course. I should mention that too. I have a spiritual practices course called Taste and See that is through Faith Lead that you can sign up for as well, that actually walks you through various practices. There's interviews with practitioners around the Twin Cities. Anyway, something else to check out. But to get back to your question, this idea that the church is going to, I think the church is going to see a movement where lay leaders, people who are not ordained, who don't have as much theological training, they can have some, but not as much. We're going to see people like that stepping into more leadership roles. We say in Faithly that the church is going to be lay led, but clergy supported.
[40:59] And I think because there will always be a place for theological training, professional theological training, but the proportion of where that will be in the leadership team I think will shift a little bit. And maybe some pastors out there are breathing a sigh of relief hearing that, like, oh, I would love to take a little bit of a step back and have other people step in. Yeah, I mean, I think it, for me at least, it feels like it's, I'm getting out of the way, if it is how it feels, and allowing for others to speak.
[41:36] And that, and, you know, like I said, it's nothing that I don't have the training or that that's not necessary. I think it is. But, you know, this is a priesthood of all believers. It's a community. And I am one that believes that the Spirit works through all of us. And so trust the Spirit to get out of the way. And that takes humility. That takes a deep understanding of who you are as a leader, who all of us are as leaders, to be willing to say, you know, I'm going to just take this step back. We have to be comfortable enough with our with how god has wired us and our own leadership ability to be able to say you know what i want to empower this person to lead and i don't know dennis if you experienced this but i i have seen amazing things come from the most unexpected people when when you give them space and i'll use an example i just led a silent retreat at Pachaman Terrace in St. Francis, which is my favorite retreat center.
[42:42] I brought some people from my church up there and we did a little bit of a debrief on the Friday that we got there and then another debrief on Sunday morning when the retreat was finished. But some of the people that attended, they were new to the dwelling practice and listening to some of the things that they shared and the ideas that they had. And then once I gave them space to, you know, you can, what is God speaking to you? What are you hearing through this text? Hearing the wisdom that came from some folks who really, I don't think had had much of an opportunity to communicate about these things was incredible. The spirit is willing, if we are willing to open up space for the spirit to move. Hmm. Well, yeah, I agree. And I think one of the, maybe something that has been within Protestantism, not always emphasized. Yeah. We kind of say we're Trinitarian, but sometimes we're more Binitarian. Oh, amen. We don't talk about the Holy Spirit as much.
[43:55] I think the practices do lift up the role of the Spirit in the life of the church. Well, the practices, yes. Oh, the practices invite us into spaces where we don't control the outcome. We don't control what God is going to say. We don't control how the practice will go. We don't even control our own experience of the practice. And we have to lean into our trust of the Spirit. And as I'm training to be a spiritual director, I am leaning so much more deeply into Trinitarian theology, because for me, that's become the dividing line. Like, I'm all in. I'm going to be Trinitarian forever, and that's the flag I want to wave and the hill I want to die on. And I want to invite other people in to experience the fullness of God in that way, that God is three in one and the Spirit plays just as powerful a role, a much more mysterious role in many ways. But that's part of embracing the mystery of God. Yep.
[44:56] Well, Tessa, thank you so much for this. This has been incredibly helpful. Oh, good. And I think hopefully it'll be helpful for people who are leaders in congregations, especially in this time of transition and polarization and all of that. Well, it is my delight to be able to share some of the gleanings of what I have learned as I've been doing this work. And if it's helpful to anyone, I'm just delighted because we want God's mission to be fulfilled at the end of the day, right? That's what we all want. Yep. I hope to have you back sometime to chat a little bit more and maybe talk about some of the other practices. I would love that. Anytime. You just say the word and I'm here.
[45:41] All right. Thank you. Thank you, Dennis.
[45:45] Music.
[46:13] So, I want to thank Tessa for taking the time to chat with me today. I wanted to actually share one note, really, about dwelling in the Word. This fall, as I said in the show, I actually started using it for my own midweek Bible study, and I really like the process. And I've noticed that the people who are participating in it also love it as well. That I kind of shared in the podcast. There's just a lot to like about it. It really, I think, does draw on the people as a whole. It's not the sense of the one person that imparts the knowledge, but it's really everyone kind of coming together and asking questions and seeing where God is moving in all of this.
[47:07] So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really want to see other ways of using it, maybe during our church council meetings and other ways that I think it could even help in my congregation revitalizing. But what did you think about the conversation? Are you using dwelling in the Word or are using some other type of faith practice, how is that going for you? If you'd like, I would love to hear from what you're thinking. Feel free to send me an email. You can do that by sending an email to churchinmain at substack.com. And I've also put a link in the show notes for Tessa's website just to learn more about her and about the practice.
[47:58] If you want to learn more about this podcast and listen to past episodes and also even to donate, check us out at churchinmaine.org. I also have a sub stack, so you can go to churchinmaine.substack.com. There you can also read related articles. And I've written a few things as of late, especially about the election, and so check that out. If you're listening to a podcast, I hope that you would consider subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you're listening to something like Apple Podcasts, I hope that you will leave a review because that really does help others be able to find this podcast. And that would be of great help to me. And please also consider sharing the podcast with a friend. So that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you so much for listening. I always say that, and I really do mean it. Take care, everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.
[49:03] Music.
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