In this episode of Church and Main, I speak with retired Disciples of Christ pastor Doug Skinner about Christian behavior during election years. (It isn't good.) We discuss the divisive rhetoric often found in the church and emphasize the need for kindness and grace despite political disagreements.
Suggested Reading and Listening:
Episode 139: Why I Am Disciples of Christ with Doug Skinner
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[0:11] Music. Hello and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in seeing where faith, politics, and culture intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. So, with today's episode, I want to start by sharing part of a blog post that I wrote, and this was from way back in 2012. I wrote it really after the conclusion, I believe, of the, maybe it was the Republican National Convention. So, it was during another presidential election season. So, I want to share this quickly.
[0:40] Thank you.
[1:17] I'm amazed at the venom coming from my fellow pastors this week. No doubt, Now, there will be the same kind of invective spewed by conservative pastors, but since I don't live in that world anymore, I focus on what I see within mainline Protestantism. Yes, pastors can and should share their opinions on the issues of the day. I'm not arguing that we should never say anything political, but I am worried about how mean-spirited we are to those who are not of the same political party. In this case, I saw a lot of pastors and other church leaders who are Democrats say some pretty nasty things about Republicans. Many of those pastors might be patting themselves on the back for their quote-unquote prophetic words. But there are two problems here. First, bad-mouthing someone from another political party is not necessarily prophetic. Sometimes Christians, liberal and and conservative fool themselves into thinking they're saying something that what they are saying is in line with the profits of old when in reality, it's just a partisan jab.
[2:23] So that's what I wrote back in 2012. And the thing is, things haven't really changed since I wrote that 12 years ago. And in fact, if we are looking at social media these days, and especially in light of some of the more recent things regarding Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, things are getting worse. All you got to do is go on social media especially places like twitter and um you will see christians, um it seems to be worse on the right though um the left is not exempt uh who are not acting very christ-like at all um in light of all of this i wanted to talk to someone about this so i brought on Doug Skinner. He is a retired Disciples of Christ pastor who lives in Texas, and he's been on the podcast before. And I wanted to have him on to talk about the upcoming election year and how those of us who follow Jesus should act during this time. So let's head into this discussion, this very needed discussion with Doug Skinner.
[3:38] Music.
[4:11] All right, Doug, thank you for coming back on to the podcast. It has been a while since the last time you were here. Do I get a coat or something like Saturday Night Live? You know, when you get a coat when you've been there, I guess it's five times. I haven't been five times with you. Yeah, you got two more times. Okay, so then I get a coat, right? So I'm working on that because we have a few people who are getting close to that five times. Okay, okay. We're not really rich here, but I'll work on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of. Yeah. So, one of the reasons I wanted to chat was to talk about the election season and the role of Christians in the election season.
[4:54] I think one of the things that we kind of, this election especially, but we see this almost in every election. Election, someone will say something to, or at least some of the elections of recent vintage, that this is the most important election ever. And usually then that seems to give people license to kind of act like a jerk, especially on social media. And I know people will say, well, you know, social media is forcing, making us all angry. And there's always a part of me that thinks that I think a lot of people are already angry. This was just kind of the excuse. And so I think my whole point here is to talk a little bit about how do we as Christians act during the election season?
[5:47] You know, we can't ignore the election. I think that that, and I'm someone especially that always thinks of the importance of voting and the importance of being a part of a Christian in the society, but it seems like, how do we act? Because sometimes I don't think we act very well.
[6:06] Yeah, I agree with that completely.
[6:10] Just this week, a friend, an acquaintance of mine, let's put it that way, that I go to church with, had posted something, an image of one of the current presidential candidates looking almost angelic angelic or demagogic you know got it yeah we just looking looking really holy and then the other candidate you know portrayed in in kind of a devil kind of a thing and and you know the the kind of the meme said you know this is either this is the choice you know this is a battle between good and evil so so that was one post and then the next post was kind of a charlie brown you know peanuts you know soupy and and saying you know what's it doesn't cost us anything to be kind and and it It kind of went, you know, wait a minute, how can we post this? And then immediately followed up with a, you know, kind of a generic, you know, be kind to each other. And I don't think people are making the connections.
[7:08] You know, I think we're somehow have, uh, have disassociated our, our political rhetoric from our truer identity as Christians. Somebody, somebody I've, uh, somebody I've read, you know, says that, that politics is the, is the Las Vegas, uh, uh, for Christians, you know, you know, what, what, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. We can, you know, whatever happens in politics stays in politics and, and it's, it's kind of bracketed off from the rest of my life. And so I can affirm Christ as Savior and Lord and acknowledge that I'm trying to grow in the direction of the Sermon on the Mount and the cultivation of the fruit of the Spirit and be very serious about that. And yet, kind of take this approach that says, you know, all bars, no bars hold, you know, no, there's no, there are no standards governing the way that I behave in the world of politics. And I think then online, I think that only exasperates us, the anonymity of this.
[8:09] Do you think that, especially as Christians, we've forgotten anything about the role of kind of witness to how one should act in the world? It seems like, as you said, it feels like with politics, it just becomes Vegas and, you know, whatever happens there stays there. But it doesn't stay there. I mean, people see this and people see how people respond and act. Yeah. We just kind of forget that. Yeah, you know, Jacques Ellul, who's not somebody I've read a lot, but, you know, have read enough to kind of feel for what he was trying to do, and his book on the presence of the kingdom, you know, he talks about, you know, how do we, it's kind of a Niebuhr Christ and culture thing. How do we situate ourselves as Christians in a larger culture with the view towards witness. And he kind of took the standard, you know, salt and, you know, we're salt of the earth and light of the world, you know, kind of the stuff you would expect. I think he also talks about leaven, you know, uses the imagery of leaven. So, you know, drawing from biblical metaphors. But the one he hit that I had never really, never really occurred to me, and that is when Jesus sends the disciples out, his sheep in the midst of wolves.
[9:33] And, you know, his argument, you know, He makes this really intriguing observation that we live in a wolf world, and so we adopt wolf principles. You know, everybody's going to be the wolf. Everybody thinks they've got to be the wolf.
[9:46] And he talked about kind of the living witness of sacrifice or martyrdom. You know, if we take that stance, you know, we bear witness, you know, to a principle that has built into it, you know, a position of generosity and kindness and self-sacrifice, which is antithetical to the kind of the principles of the world. And of course, his argument was, it is that difference that accentuates the truth that we have. And, you know, so he says, you know, in a world where everybody's trying to be a wolf, somebody's got to be the lamb. And Christ says, I'm sending you out as lambs. And, you know, that we have to bear with the, um, the, uh.
[10:31] The cost of martyrdom in the sense of, you know, we open ourselves up to that criticism or to that, those assaults and don't respond back in the same way that the first Peter stuff, you know, that when reviled, he didn't revile back and he's left us that example to follow. So, yeah, we've got to be careful, right? I mean, you know, we have a set of principles or virtues that are defining for us that then kind of conveniently get set aside when we operate in a world of power.
[11:08] In another book, I'm trying to think of the guy's names, but anyways, he talked about the way of the dragon and the way of the lamb, and kind of outlining these two ways of Christians operating in the world, that there are those who have adopted the way of the dragon. I'm going to be powerful, and I'm going to overwhelm you. I'm going to defeat you. And then there's the way of the lamb, which is the way of, they would say, the way of the Christ of the Gospels, who's going to to be a servant and a sacrificial witness.
[11:42] Do you think that too many Christians in that sense then have—and I think I see this on both what we say the left and the right have adopted the way of the wolf or the dragon—that as much as we may talk about the lamb and talk about Jesus being sacrificed, We don't think that will really work in the real world, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was it that, what's his name, the guy that's the editor of Christianity Today now that used to be with the Joint Baptist Commission on Social Work? Yeah, Russell Moore. Yeah, that Russell Moore quote that is just devastating, where after preaching something about the Christ from the Sermon on the Mount, some of the things that Christ says and being told, you know, hey, where did you get that from? And, you know, then you kind of say, well, this is Jesus. It's the red letters. Right. And then say, well, that doesn't work anymore. You know, that just doesn't work anymore. Well, yikes.
[12:44] You know, it does work, you know, and the church has worked on these principles at its best. The church has traded them in routinely for the bowl of porridge of power, but they have worked. The church has been renewed consistently by that living witness of sacrifice. You know, I think of, you know, when Constantine, you know, sees us with the era of Constantine and the church, you know, kind of settles into that power arrangement, you know, it's Anthony and the people who go to the desert that renew the church. It's Francis, you know, renewing the church in an age when, you know, the Vatican was becoming, you know, one of the great powers of the world. You know, you go kind of go through, you know, John Wesley, you know, in But England, you know, you kind of, even in our heritage, you know, there are these incredible, you know, Barton Stone is an example. David Lipscomb. Oh, that's what I bring up. Yeah, that Lipscomb stuff is just astonishing in terms of that living witness of sacrifice, of taking the lower place.
[13:56] But again, I think people affirm that. You know, this person who posted this stuff I was talking about earlier, you know, dear person, you know, and, you know, would do anything for you in the community and is kind and generous and faithful. But somehow, you know, there's a disconnect has occurred.
[14:19] Yeah, it is mystifying. You know, one of the things that I find fascinating, and we kind of talked about this just before we started recording, is how, in some ways, both the left and the right see things, it's kind of like it's a Flight 93 election all the way down. Of course, I'm referring to that article that was written by Michael Anton, who is a Trump supporter and later worked in the administration. But it's this sense of...
[14:58] Of, as you said, apocalypticism, that it's the end of the world. If one side wins, it's going to be the end of democracy. If the other side wins, it's going to be communism. Yeah, it's the end of America. It's the end of everything. And it seems to me that that can't be helpful in a lot of ways.
[15:25] To our civic duties, but it also seems to then not put a whole lot of trust in God. I mean, I have read a lot of, recently a lot of Andy Brute, who's a theologian here in St. Paul, and how much, I mean, he talks a lot about relying on Charles Taylor, a Canadian philosopher, philosopher and how we kind of live in an eminent frame that we might talk a lot about God, we really don't think that God is going to act. And so we really don't, it seems like when we go into election season, we might talk a lot about God, but we really don't think God's going to do anything. And so, you know, we've got to, it's like, it's all on us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That imminent frame stuff is really useful. I agree. I think Andrew Root's stuff has been helpful in lots of ways in terms of the marginalization of the mainline church as well as this conversation.
[16:34] Yeah, there's kind of implied practical atheism, isn't there, in the way that we kind of do this. It's all on us. That if we, you know...
[16:47] From my perspective, it really helps to read history, you know, I mean, you know, to have some awareness, you know, the history of both the United States, but, you know, and the political history of the United States, you know, I was, I have not joked with my kids, but, you know, when they say things, you know, I say, you know, I lived through 1968, you know, you know, when we were going back to Chicago for the Democratic Convention this year, you know, my anxiety at that point was, well, I remember, you know, the last time there was a democratic convention in Chicago, you know, I remember 1968 and how, you know, world changing that was, you know, just that fruit basket upset and the political and social for maybe the icing on the fruit basket upset cake. I don't, you know, I don't think it was the cause of that, but it was certainly the, maybe the highest expression of that, of that period of time. You know, as you have a sense of history, you know, if you have a sense of history, you realize, you know, this is not the the first time we've been here, you know, that we're always just teetering on that edge.
[17:48] You know, I've read, I was recently listening to a book about Washington's farewell address. It kind of covers his presidency, but that astonishing letter that he wrote to America at the end of his second term and kind of what was behind that. And as I'm listening to this book, look, you could take everything that was kind of happening to Washington and move it to today, and it's the same forces, the same pressures, the same criticisms, the same divides, the division. There were people who were trying to impeach Washington. There were people who had written them off. The father of our country, for heaven's sakes. Lincoln, the FDR, you just move through history, you know.
[18:42] There have been lots of moments that have been defined as apocalyptic. And I think some of them were a lot closer to apocalyptic moments than the present moment. You know, God bless Abraham Lincoln and, you know, the dissolution of the Union. You know, if any moment in American political history feels apocalyptic, you know, I think that might have been the moment, right? Right. And and we came through it and, you know, by maybe by a razor's edge. But we did. And and so, you know, how we frame our optimism or pessimism, you know, has certainly got to be rooted in some faith foundations.
[19:25] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you know, we talk a lot about our divisions and there are divisions right now, so I don't want to belittle them. But I remember writing an article and I was trying to do some, and I've also heard this around the time of, just before kind of Hitler came to power in Germany during the Weimar Republic, and especially around 1930, 31, 32, it was dark. I mean, you know, we worry about fascism and all this stuff. And I was like, no, no, no, no. That was dark. I mean, like, there were literally, like, the communists and the Nazis had armies that were fighting in the streets in Germany. So, you know...
[20:10] This is not as bad as that. And, you know, you know, I don't want to belittle it, but I also don't want to make it into this big thing. You know, there are other parts of history that are really bad. Yeah. You know, the comparative kind of, you know, that's useful, I suppose, but I don't want to get stuck there. What I'm more inclined to say is, you know, this just seems to be the structure of social reality, right? Right. There is there is this continue rather than saying, oh, this is worse than that, is to say, isn't it intriguing that it just this kind of this kind of perennially prop pops up in in society and culture, you know, in political kind of machinations. This is this this this is this is the norm rather than the exception. And I think once you kind of get your head wrapped around that, then you then you say, OK, you know, it's always been like this. You know, this is more—without getting too deep into theological anthropology, you know, it seems that maybe this is, you know, nature, human nature. Maybe this has something to do with, you know, with the social construction of the reality that reflects the pressures we feel inside of ourselves.
[21:25] But that also means that we would have to admit about the nature of sin in our world. So I think we struggle with that because I think we want to say that we're all, you know, mostly good people except for those other people. If we just deal with those other people, then we're fine. Yeah.
[21:44] Doesn't know, no. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, Dennis, the, you know, one of those, one of those kind of those moments that kind of shifted my, my thinking was, was one of Randy Balmer's, how do you say his name? The guy from. Balmer.
[22:00] Balmer. Yeah. His, one of his early books, you know, you know, kind of examining kind of the subculture of American evangelicalism. And in that, he talks about visiting Trinity Seminary. I think it was Trinity Seminary. It had a satellite out in Oregon, up in the McKinsey River region. And so the McKinsey Study Center, I think, is what it was called. And he described the guys there, their worldview. And one of the things the guy said, he said, you know, I know I'm in the presence of bad theology. Whenever whenever I hear or see lines being drawn between us and them you know maybe I'm going to draw a line and say though it's though that those are the bad people you know that those are the evil folks and over here were the good folks that they're they're mean and stupid and selfish and we're noble and generous and kind you know so whenever I whenever I see that line being drawn you know theologically or politically or socially he says I know I'm in the presence of bad thinking he said he said you know I where I know in the presence of gospel thinking, you know, the wisdom of the cross, he says, is when I see a circle being drawn around all of us, and we're all within the circle of, he uses rather.
[23:24] Stark language to describe those of us in the circus, but we're all, you know, we're all in this thing together and, and it's a jumble of good and evil. You know, it's that Solzhenitsyn, you know, observation that the line between good and evil is not a line arbitrarily drawn in society, but it transects the human heart, you know? But that, you know, that's hard to admit, right? I mean, that, that is, that's a really hard thing to admit.
[23:50] There, there's an English guy, you know, who's written, Andrew Basden, B-A-S-D-E-N, Andrew Basden, has written about original sin, which for us disciples, you know, even though I'm pretty sure if I'm reading Campbell in Christian System, you know, he acknowledges that there's something intrinsic in us that is askew. But without getting into the depths of kind of reformed original sin Augustinian Calvinist thinking, he nevertheless, Andy Basden, you know, talks about the good news of original sin. And he has this really concise little article online about original sin and basically says, you know, once we kind of buy that, then it relieves us of the responsibility of thinking we have to scold the other person. It, you know, creates a generosity of spirit that says, you know, yeah, I recognize that, you know, we're capable of really noble things and we're capable of really ugly things. And, you know, it makes us more generous on the way we treat each other and view each other is that we're all afflicted with the same disease.
[25:00] Yeah. And so, yeah, move that over into the political realm. You know, I am not surprised. I'm never surprised, Dennis, when a political ally says or does something stupid, just as I'm never surprised when a political adversary says or does something stupid. But I just kind of expect us to do stupid and selfish things. But I also expect us to do noble and and and, you know, important things.
[25:28] We're a jumble. You know, we're this jumble of stuff. And that's true of us as individuals and true of us as a political society.
[25:36] What role do you think confession has in all of this?
[25:42] Even just this morning, the thing I posted up, last Sunday in church, the call to worship where I worship was one of the entrance liturgies from the Psalms. And so it begins with, who will stand on my holy hill? Who will come into my courts? And then it starts rattling off this list of virtues. And, you know, so I was kind of sitting in my pew thinking, okay, you know, running through this list and it's, you know, it's a list of virtues. And I kind of thought, okay, you know, if you squint, maybe I qualify in that one. If you squint, you know, I'm going to have to squint. You know, as I got done with them, you know, I'm just kind of feeling like, well, boy, if that's the measure of getting in, you know, I'm not getting in. Oh, there's six flags just down the street here in the mid cities. They have roller coasters with these signs. You got to be this tall to get on the ride, you know, and I thought, well, beginning worship with an entrance will be like that. It's kind of like having a sign, you know, you got to be this, spiritually, you got to be this tall to get in. And, you know, and so how I processed that, even on Sunday, and wrote about it this morning, the way I processed that was to kick back to John Calvin's three uses of the law and to say, you know, that the law, you know, the law serves this function of reminding reminding us that God is a moral God with moral expectations.
[27:07] We fall short of those moral expectations, which prepares us for grace. And then the moral expectations return into the conversation as aspirational qualities, kind of the trellis on which the vine of faith grows or the vine of character grows. most. So, you know, so I think all of life has got to be lived with reference to that. What I said in my thing I wrote this morning was, you know, every worship service, you know, ought to kind of take us down that pathway. You know, J.F. Packer talked about worship being a journey, and the journey goes from the recognition of what's wrong with me and the world to coming to a place of the encounter of grace and then calling us to the transformation of grace. You know, it's to begin by saying, I don't measure up. And then, you know, like the Republican in the parable of the public in the Pharisee saying, you know, God have mercy on me, a sinner. And then to hear then the challenge of that to say, you know, I'm going to grow in a different direction. I aspire to be different and better as a result of this. Yeah, that ought to be, I think that needs to be the dynamic of all of our worship moments. Yeah.
[28:24] I don't know, maybe a year ago or so, and I've seen this pop up a few times, and it was the first time from David Brooks, a columnist for the New York Times, and it was brought up again even recently by another New York Times columnist, Brett Stevens. And in both cases, they suggested, how do we reach out to Trump supporters? And it was interesting, the response, especially that David Brooks received, it wasn't positive. And I wrote about that myself on my Medium blog, and it was kind of the same way, that there was always this understanding about either A, that you're trying to reason with them and they can't be reasoned with, we can only defeat them, which I kept thinking. Okay, this is not the battle of the song or something. But it was very much in that kind of almost martial language. And it was just interesting, because I think the whole point of his thing was not to try to appease or to do anything like that. It was simply to listen.
[29:47] And what is it, especially in our culture, But maybe even sometimes in our churches that we don't listen, want to even listen to someone on the other side. Yeah.
[30:05] Because we're disciples, right? We have, you know, we have, I think we have a, you know, there's something in our DNA that says, you know, we're going to be, we're going to expect a diversity of opinion on things. And at some level, we appreciate that diversity of opinion.
[30:25] I was telling, I did a funeral service early this week with a Baptist fellow, and we were talking about the differences in our traditions. And he was referencing how diverse Baptist life has become, much more diverse in his experience than it had been before. And I laughed and said, well, we disciples have that old saying where there are two or three disciples, there are going to be seven or eight opinions, we just know that's going to happen. And the task is to find the still point in the middle of all of that ferment. And I think historically for us, we would say that's the table,
[31:06] right? The table is in all of our diversity. We come to the table to experience the saving works and presence of Christ. And regardless, my favorite moment in church life through my vocation was one of the churches I served had a Sunday school class that was composed of some of the brightest, most articulate, most passionate people I've ever known. I mean, it was just kind of this microcosm of the larger world, but all with really, like, PhD-level folks. And, you know, every week, they would just...
[31:51] Go at things. You know, they didn't agree about anything. And I've always thought, you know, if you took a visitor and said, you know, come to church and let's, I'm going to show you what it means to be a disciple. I think I take him to that class and just say, sit in the corner and just observe this. And, you know, for 45 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever the Sunday school hour was, you know, these people would just go at each other, you know, not unkind, not cruel, cool, not vulgar, but rigorous, you know, debate. And then it was time, you know, to go to church, go to worship. And I suspect on the way into the sanctuary, this guest would say, do those people like each other? You know, how, you know, they are.
[32:32] But then you go into the sanctuary and sit in a pew. And before long, you'd see these same people who just, you know, 10 minutes before had been at each other, you know, tooth and claw. Now they're sitting side by side in the choir okay now they now they're serving you know side by side as elders behind the table now they're they are the folks who are serving you communion or the ushers at the door ending up the very same people who who before had been you know you could say there's there's no common ground here then they come into the sanctuary and and they are they are mutually spiritually reverencing, you know, attending to the same things, reverencing the same things. And I would say that's the genius of a disciple, is that there is all the chaos, you know, for all of the controversy and conclusions that we've drawn and convictions that we have. There is nevertheless this place where we meet in our differences. And I would say historically, that's for us disciples, that's the table. And more than just the table as a bite of bread and a sip of juice, but the table as, the mechanism that points us to the saving love of God in Jesus Christ. We find our meeting ground there.
[33:54] I wasn't raised in this tradition. I kind of got here, Johnny, come lately. But what drew me here was a description of the disciples in the Look magazine series about religions in America. America, and it was a description of disciples. The guy who wrote this description of disciple life back in the late 50s, early 60s, described, that in a disciple congregation, he said, there are your fundamentalists and your liberals, is what he said. They're in the same congregation, and each has the right of private interpretation. And so they're going to draw different conclusions and passionately hold different convictions. And yet there is nothing that precludes them from coming to the Lord's table together to celebrate, to experience the grace of God.
[34:49] And I thought, you know, I want that church. You know, that's that's true. Now, I think that proposition has become more fragile these days. You know, I think it's harder. It's harder. I'm not the pastor of a local church any longer. I suspect you see it more readily Sunday in and Sunday out, but I'm in a part of a church where I know there are people in my congregation that I'm a member of that are across the political spectrum and are posting things during the week which are mean-spirited and narrow, and.
[35:28] It's alarming.
[35:31] Does the center hold? I've got to believe that it does, but it seems to me it's being tested in ways that hasn't been tested in a long time. Yeah, I think it's being tested a lot, especially I think as society becomes more sorted and we sort by, especially by our political beliefs, it's a lot harder to find those spaces where we kind of agree. Or at least where we have something in common other than just that we're either all progressives or all conservatives. Yeah. I've shared this a lot of times, but back in the 90s, I was a part of a Baptist church in D.C. And this was around the time there was just a lot of discussions in a lot of different denominations. About the role of LGBT people in the life of the church. And they were going to hire a pastor or call a pastor who was very LGBT friendly. And that was kind of causing a bit of a stir.
[36:48] And it's interesting that someone got up and started to speak. And this was a congregation that at the time had people who would be considered more mainline and progressive, but they also had lots of evangelicals. And one woman stood up who wasn't evangelical. And what was interesting is that she was a friend of this pastor and said that they don't agree on this issue. But this was her friend, because she knew who this woman was, her character, everything. And so she was going to support her to be pastor. And she He was on staff for several years.
[37:36] And another example I know around that same time is that whenever churches were working on this issue and maybe had to have a vote, they would, after the vote, even if it went their way, almost everyone would say to a person, well, now we have some healing to do. That there was a sense of we have to work to bring things back together. I contrast that with something I've heard more than once very recently about, especially on the LGBT issue.
[38:15] And coming from a more liberal side, kind of how much people tend to say, well, you know, the conservatives are gone so that, you know, which is good and we can now do what we need to do. And, you know, it's just kind of a sense. And I have no doubt and I've read enough to know it happens on the other side. But it's that sense of we don't need you anymore. Whereas 30 years ago, even though those issues were there, they were contentious, there was still something holding people together that could have been, in our context as disciples, the table, it could have been something else. But it's like that thing seems to be gone now. And so it makes it a whole lot easier when I go to social media that we can look at each other and say, see someone who's different from us, and just not treat them with much respect.
[39:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when you were saying that, Dennis, that was my thought. I'm teaching an online Bible study every week, and we're in 1 Corinthians 12, where the different parts of the body, and can the eye say to the ear, I have no need of you, or the foot to the hand, I have no need of you. The body is less if we're not, you know, all—but again, there's a, you know, in that metaphor, obviously, you know, there is a head that directs the body. And so, as long as there's that mutual acknowledgement that the head is the living Christ, is the, you know, is the spirit of Christ in our midst, you know, that's what holds us together and compels us to hang together. It is that compulsion to stay in community, difficult community.
[40:09] When you know a person's heart, you know, that they are in Christ in the same way that you're in Christ, it forces you, despite the discomforts and, you know, unity is a hard thing, right? I mean, being in community is a difficult thing, but there's a compulsion to do it that is bigger than just goodwill and, you know, kind of a, you know, corporate sense of ought. You know, there's something that compels me to stay in community with you. And, you know, I think that that is the presence of the Spirit of Christ in us. And, yeah, we let go of that. I think then this thing does unravel fairly quickly because there are all the pressures. But, again, knowing history helps. You know, this isn't new. If I'm reading the New Testament, if I'm reading Acts correctly, You know, they were at each other's throats, you know, on all kinds of issues. And yet, they, you know, the, be eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace, Ephesians 4, right? There's this, you know, this is not optional for us. You know, we're pushed, you know, into that.
[41:28] With the political factions, you know, for me, it becomes a question of what is the most defining aspect of me? You know, what, what is the most defining reality for me? Lewis Smee is one of the, one of my professors out at Fuller, you know, his work on forgiveness, you know, he talked about, you know, what, that, that when we are betrayed by somebody, when, you know, when somebody has done, you know he said we have all kinds of strategies for dealing with lesser hurts in our lives but when something rises to the level of needing to be forgiven he talked about having to have magic eyes you know which is to be able to see that there is more to this other person than the injury that they have inflicted on there there's more to this other person than than the hurt that they have caused me that the the the hurtful thing they said or did is certainly part of their truth in relationship with me, but it's not the only truth about that person or even the deepest truth about that person. And so you've got to come to a place of saying, without minimizing the damage or the injury, but nevertheless say that there's something even more fundamental that compels me to work towards reconciliation.
[42:50] And, yeah, I think that sounds very gospel-y to me. That sounds very gospel-y to me, is that there's something fundamental about us in our union with Christ that compels union with each other, even when it's hard. And it's going to be hard.
[43:09] Yeah, I mean, I think that's actually part of the problem is that, and this seems to run into it because I hear it a lot in my circles, that we want kind of to have a safe environment. And believe me, I understand where people are coming from. I don't want to be careless in that. But I also feel like life is also about living in tension, that we don't get these perfect places where we don't ever have to deal with things that might bother us. And so it always feels like it's, you know, yes, we don't want to be careless or be in a place where people get hurt emotionally. That can be very damaging. but I also don't want to be in a place where we're just, It can be kind of protected, but we never live in that tension, because I think life is about living in tension, because we're all different.
[44:18] Eugene Peterson told this wonderful story about, you know, he would spend, I don't know how this worked, but he would spend part of every summer when he was in Maryland at the church in Bel Air. He was from Montana, and he had a home in Montana, so he'd go to Montana for, what, a month, a month and a half every summer.
[44:37] But he said, you know, I heard him say, you know, but before I would go, I would always make sure all the ducks were in a row, you know, at the church. You know, he said, I would, you know, I would, I would be the mother hen. I would get everything kind of organized and and make sure that, you know, there were no there were no fires. You know, he would make every, you know, he says, when I would leave the church for those four to six weeks every year, it would be, you know, it would be everything was was was buttoned down. It was in order. He says he came back from one of these summers away, and he said, you know, it was just chaos. You know, he said the placid pond that I had created had white caps. It was, you know, there was something, it was just, it was stirred up. And he said, so my instinct, you know, as a pastor, and his own temperament, my instinct was to go in there and fix it, you know, is to calm, you know, pour oil on the agitated waters, is to make peace, is to try to restore an order. And he said a very wise elder who watched him come back and begin to be the pastor fireman, go out and put out fires. The elder pulled him aside and he said, Pastor, how do you know that the white caps on the pond right now aren't the work of the Spirit?
[45:53] Hmm. How do you know that this isn't this isn't what God is doing in our midst right now? And if you prematurely or artificially dampen this, you know, are you going to be quenching the spirit? Are you going to be grieving the spirit? Maybe this is the work of the spirit. And you're working against it by trying to create an artificial sense of calm.
[46:16] You know, I think, you know, I don't know about you, Dennis, but, you know, I, you know, as a pastor who, you know, who is averse, adverse to conflict. You know, I'll admit that, you know, I want things to be calm and peaceful. And so probably, probably lean too far too often in the direction of trying to pacify those tensions.
[46:38] But maybe we need to, you know, shift our, you know, our metaphor of the Spirit, the analogy that we use from, you know, the peaceful dove, the quiet, gentle, you know, what's the, you know, the sweet Holy Spirit, sweet heavenly dove, you know, and sing and hold hands and sway. Maybe, you know, maybe, you know, we ought to have a different view of the Spirit as the, you know, the wind that blows, you know, the fire and the wind of Pentecost that stirs things up. You know, what did Pope Francis say right at the beginning of his ministry as Pope? You know, he talked about, you know, this Holy Spirit is pushy. The pushy Holy Spirit. He said, the Holy Spirit pushes us, you know, and we don't like it. You know, we want the Holy Spirit to calm things down. He says, but, you know, he said, the way I read the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit is agitating, you know, wherever there are marginalized or excluded people, wherever there are a group of people who don't know that they're loved by God and Jesus Christ the Spirit says I'm gonna push you in there or I'm gonna push them I'm gonna you're gonna collide with those people I'm gonna push you to have contact with those people so that so that, So that you are being formed into the people I need you to be as witness.
[47:52] Yeah, so, you know, maybe the agitation is, and again, I think there are limits to that. You know, cruelty, you know, the abuses that we've seen, you know, there can't be namby-pamby about that stuff. I'm with you. Anything that is abusive or damaging to another person. On the other hand, you know, discomfort is, you know, that's life, right? You know, we're never entirely comfortable. We're always being pushed in ways that, and to kind of have an appreciation for that, that's the work of God in us. You know, and certainly politically, you know, is recognizing that God is in this. God is in the other, and the concerns they have are part of that same desire that I have for gospel values and principles and a kingdom vision to emerge.
[48:55] Tim Keller's observation that the kingdom values are not conveniently embodied by any political system or any political party.
[49:15] We can't simply say, well, I'm just going to be this. I'm going to support this candidate. I'm all in without the recognition that there's no perfect embodiment there of the kingdom values.
[49:25] You know, we've got to kind of sit free in that. Bernard Eller, the Church of the Brethren guy, Bernard Eller was on the West Coast, big influence on a lot of us. You know, he talked about, he said that, you know, that Christians in political kinds of conversations are going to be the round earthers in a flat earth world, you know, which is to say, you know, you're going to sound like them and you're going to look like them. There's no there's no visible difference between somebody who believes in a round earth and a flat earth. They look the same and they operate the same, but they have fundamentally different worldviews. I mean, they're fundamentally different perspectives. And he said, you know, that, you know, so we will make common cause with with political stuff. You know, there are there are things in the Republican side of things. You say, well, those values are mine and there are things on the Democrats. Now, those values are mine, and I'm going to support that. I'll make common cause with you on those things. But you don't sit comfortably, you could say, in any partisan organization because we're round-earthers. We have a different –.
[50:32] Perspective. Our values, our vision is governed by kingdom. And that's entirely different from transitory political power. I think it's, I don't know if you're aware of a person, Michael Ware. He has written a few books, especially on faith and politics. He worked in the Obama administration. Yes, yeah. And he has a quote that goes that if we feel politically homeless, the problem isn't that That there isn't a party, as Christians, a party that will fit us is that we believe that there was a party that could.
[51:09] There isn't really a party that totally fits all of our values. We will always be uncomfortable wherever we go because God's values don't line up perfectly with the values of any political party. And that's very much that Tim Keller opinion piece in the Times. It's been a while, but that's exactly his point. I think the title was something to be effective. How does a Christian fit in the political party system? And his answer is, we don't. We make common cause with aspects of both political parties, but we don't comfortably sit in one altogether. And we get in trouble when we think we can or worse, when we think you must. And that's the most dangerous aspect of these conversations that I see going on today. And that is that if you don't vote the way I vote, you don't think the way I think, then you're not a Christian.
[52:17] Yeah, and I think that's a long interest. Because I think that puts you in the place of God. Yeah. Yeah. Have you been following anything about Dwight McKissick down here? You know, Dwight's the African-American Southern Baptist fellow in the mid-cities, Arlington. A little bit. Yeah, it's really intriguing kind of what he's doing. And, you know, he's kind of taken that, you know, from the more conservative wing, you know, of both Baptist life and political life. But he's taken a position that basically is beginning to echo that Keller stuff. And that is the idea that either political party or either candidate is going to be the Christian candidate. date. He said, yeah, no, you know, we, we, you know, basically snap out of that, um, you know, figure out, figure out, you know, which one moves the ball, you know, more decisively in the direction of the values that you affirm the most right now and, and, and, and do that, but, but don't give them your soul.
[53:24] Don't give them your soul. Yeah. That whole argument was also interesting because they were kind of faulting him for his choice, but it's not like, And I don't know if the people who are faulting him, where they stood on, but I'm guessing they probably put all their chips in on the other side.
[53:46] So it's kind of like, are you, this is kind of hypocritical. Yeah. And I think. Yeah. Especially on the abortion question. I mean, that's what he's really, you know, kind of, you know, kind of saying that the, you know, the idea that the transactional choice that you made, that evangelicals made to support an otherwise less than stellar kind of example of our values in order to get that. And then to see him, you know, wavering on that, if that is the issue, you know, shows that, you know, it's just a dangerous thing to give yourself entirely to one of these systems, you know, keep it transactional, I guess, you know, just you understand that you're going to, there's some things that you value, and you're going to try to figure out the best ways to advance that or to protect that. But don't go all in. It's not God's gun and Jesus, God's guns and whatever.
[54:50] Back off of that. And I think, again, with McKissick, what was interesting, because he talks about abortion, but of course being African-American, he talked about the fact that, you know, for African-Americans, there are other issues that are also we think are important for our faith, which I've always kind of agreed with. I, you know.
[55:12] There are lots of, I think, African-Americans that are probably more pro-life than you would think, but they don't necessarily vote that way. But they don't vote that way because there are other issues that, as Christians, they believe are important, too. That doesn't negate those who think that abortion is an important issue. That's where you're coming from. But don't make it sound like they don't have that or that they're not prayerfully considering that. And I think he was right to talk about that. Yeah. You know, I really admire my Catholic friends and their, what they call the consistent life position. Yeah. Recognition that, yeah, in that system, abortion is one part of that. But there are dozens of other issues, poverty and capital punishment and access to health care. And, you know, there are just dozens of other issues that are just as, you know, kind of a pro-life kind of a concern as this. And it seems to me that when you boil things down to a single issue, that's a mistake of fundamentalism, right?
[56:29] Fundamentalism is a mistake. I don't disagree. Essentially, I would want to nuance some of the five fundamentals out of the beginning of the 20th century, that conversation. But if you affirm the Nicene Creed, if you can affirm what's in the creed, you're going to get all those fundamentals kind of in there in various ways. So it's not that I disagree agree with those five. It's the objection that it all gets boiled down to these five ideas. There's more.
[56:57] Harold O.J. Brown in his book on heresy said that the heresy of fundamentalism, which by itself is kind of an astonishing thing for somebody in the evangelical world to say, calling fundamentalism heresy. He said the heresy of fundamentalism is not that what they affirmed wasn't true, it was unbalanced. They have wrenched certain ideas out of the fabric of the Christian system and said, this is all that matters. This is the only thing that matters. And when you do that to any aspect of the Christian system, just by that isolation and elevation, it becomes distorted.
[57:34] And again, I understand why you do that. It makes a great talking point to boil it down to, this is the issue. Well, but it's not just the issue. There are lots of issues that ought to be of value to people like us. So I want to kind of close with one final question. And it's a question that a Presbyterian pastor that I interviewed kind of brought up.
[58:08] And so I want to bring it up with you. Maybe more for advice is, what should people be preaching on November 10th? November 10th is his first election after the general election.
[58:26] And so his answer was that he's actually going to be doing a series on the Lord's Prayer. That's what he's going to be preaching on. He's someone that obviously is not me. He prepares way, way in advance. And this is what he's going to be focusing on. And for him, it's important to really focus on who we are as Christians, because if he got up and was saying things about a certain candidate, that might—and he brought up a hypothetical of someone that comes in who's maybe lost a loved one, but they may have voted the other way, that that will damage that chance of witnessing to that person. So that's kind of where he's coming from but i want to offer to you as a retired pastor what advice would you give to a pastor on how they should preach on november 10th yeah so the, quickly the three things that occur to me you know what we did dennis at northway uh got in the habit of doing the the election day communion service that tradition which i which i thought was is always one of the most powerful. So after a day of voting and campaigning and after the election season, kind of regardless of how you voted.
[59:49] Come together on the evening of the election and let's commune together to recognize that our unity is in Christ. And again, not to say that our differences, our political differences are unimportant or inconsequential, but rather to say there is, back that Lewis Smedes idea, There's something that's more fundamentally true about us than those. And to adopt some humility and modesty and generosity of spirit and to do that by coming to the table and finding our unity there. So that's the first thing. Second thing, I always, on the newsletter right after an election, and especially a contentious election, but every presidential election, there is that wonderful...
[1:00:35] Daniel Berrigan statement about, I'm not saved by the Republican Party. I'm not saved by the YMCA. I'm not saved by the United Nations.
[1:00:44] I'm saved by Jesus Christ. So he has a kind of a laundry list of allegiances and attachments that we form. And I think he called it his post-election confession of faith. It's basically, I'm not saved by anything other than Jesus Christ. And so that You know, that strikes me as, you know, that really is the, you know, the thing that we really need to kind of zone in on is that, and again, I think that communion day, election day communion is also a way of affirming that, of framing that. at. So those are two. I had a third, and I'm old now, Dennis, and so ideas flit and passed. But certainly, whatever I would do, I would try to bring it back to that allegiance. Yeah, but even before November the 10th, I think one of the practices that I think we've lost, I know that I did as a pastor, because I was so concerned about so many things. And this is, I go to a disciple, I'm a member of a disciple congregation, but I also worship in an Anglican church every week for the Eucharist liturgy. And I'm always struck in that liturgy that every week they pray for the president.
[1:02:07] I mean, every week, the prayers of the people, you know, the kind of the standard liturgy, you know, they pray for the president in this congregation. They pray for the president by name and by first name. OK, so right now, you know, every week for the last four years, they have been praying for Joe, you know, for John Conway. They've been praying and they do it in that kind of that Anglican style, which is, you know, very liturgical, very proper. But they pray for a Democratic president by name and a Democratic vice president by name. But they also I'm in Texas. You know, they pray for for a very Republican governor, you know, by name. Now, regardless of the outcome of the election on November the 10th or maybe after January the 20th, they will continue to do this. but they will pray for whoever's president next.
[1:02:59] Okay. So the tradition, you know, is, you know, we pray for those who are in authority over us. And so, so to pray, you know, to pray for a Democrat when there's a Democrat in the office, and then to pray for a Republican, if it's a Republican who's in office, you know, that the obligation that we have as Christians, our praying is not partisan. Our praying is, is governed by a different set of values. And part of that is, you know, we pray for whoever, and the prayer is the same, you know, that they have wisdom, and that they create the conditions in which human thriving is made, and flourishing is made possible, and that they protect the freedom so that the church can be the church. You know, so that pattern of praying regardless, you know, to me that's, you know, Those are just three quick kinds of things, but that would certainly be, that's the Lord's prayer. You know, certainly, you know, that's not far from kind of, I think, where the right place to go, which is, you know, the hour in the Lord's prayer that we pray for includes Republicans and Democrats. It includes, you know, we pray, it's not just me and mine, give us our daily bread, and it is give us our, you know, forgive us our trespasses or debts. You know, the hour is that collective, and in our context, that includes everybody.
[1:04:28] Well, I think that that is a good way to end. So, thank you again. Absolutely, Dennis. I know, last minute, kind of, but it's always good to see you. Always good to talk to you. Yeah, yeah.
[1:04:40] And two more times and I get that coat, right? Yep, two more times. So, obviously, you will be back. Okay.
[1:04:46] Music.
[1:05:22] So I'd like to know what you're thinking in regards to the conversation. What are some things that you have seen during this election year where you see Christians behaving badly? Has that been directed towards you? I'm curious. Feel free to drop me a line. You can send me an email to churchandmain at substack.com if you want to talk a little bit more. Um, and, um, I'd also just want to say just to pastors in general, um, because sometimes it's not just pastors who are saying the words, but pastors who kind of take the brunt of those words from, from their, um, from the congregations. So I think it's important to just remember, um, those pastors and remember you, if you If you are one of those pastors, um, remember that you are not alone and please consider seeking out other people to talk to. Um, you don't have to kind of try to carry that burden on your own.
[1:06:29] Um, if you want to learn more about the podcast, uh, listen to past episodes, donate, uh, go to churchinmaine.org. Um, I hope that you will consider subscribing to this podcast. You can do that on your favorite podcast app. and also, please if you are listening consider leaving a review you can also do that on whatever podcast platform you are listening to if you can do that just that would be of great help to me because it helps really for others to find this podcast and I think if more people even if they just simply click on the rating, and leave us how many stars or whatever that would be of great help. Um, and you can, um, I try to do that, um, on other podcasts that I listened to just because I think it is helpful. And it's also for me just trying to do a good deed. So that is it for this episode of church in Maine. Um, I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you so much for listening. Take care. Godspeed. And I'll see you soon.
[1:07:37] Music.
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