Dennis Sanders sits down with Michael Baharaeen, chief political analyst for The Liberal Patriot, to explore the growing crisis of political polarization in America. Drawing on data, history, and his own experience working in national politics, Baharain examines how Americans have increasingly sorted themselves into politically homogenous communities, fueled by the decline of shared public spaces, the rise of social media, and a two-party system that leaves little room for nuance. The conversation covers the real dangers this polarization poses to democracy — from eroding trust between neighbors to the risk of sustained political violence — while also offering practical paths forward.
Shownotes:
Growing Tribalism Threatens the American Experiment (Michael Baharaeen)
How everyday Americans can help pull their democracy back from the brink (Michael Baharaeen)
Join the Church and Main Email List
Facebook | Instagram | Threads | Twitter | Website | YouTube
00:00:27 --> 00:00:33 Hello, and welcome to Church and Maine, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 intersection of faith, politics, and culture.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:37 I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:47 Maybe you've heard me say this joke before, but my parents were both what I
00:00:47 --> 00:00:48 would call New Deal Democrats.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:52 They were union members, autoworkers.
00:00:52 --> 00:01:00 And I'd like to say and joke that these two diehard New Deal Democrats gave
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 birth to an Eisenhower Republican.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:05 And while that joke is funny,
00:01:06 --> 00:01:11 there's a bit of sadness underneath because I think that both of those kinds
00:01:11 --> 00:01:12 of Democrats and Republicans,
00:01:13 --> 00:01:20 you know, kind of the moderate Rockefeller Republican and the more kind of working
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 class New Deal Democrat.
00:01:25 --> 00:01:29 Conservative Democrat doesn't really exist much anymore.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:37 I remember I interned on Capitol Hill back in the 1990s, actually, to be exact, 1990.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:46 And these kind of people really roamed the halls in numbers, in large numbers.
00:01:46 --> 00:01:50 And they were able to work together, and I think they were able to produce some
00:01:50 --> 00:01:54 awesome legislation, and that's not the case anymore.
00:01:55 --> 00:02:01 It just seems overall that there seems to be little room for more pragmatic
00:02:01 --> 00:02:07 liberals and conservatives who want to work together and even live together.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:12 More and more, conservatives and liberals live and work separately.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:16 This is kind of part of our increasing political polarization.
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 Back in 2008 there was a writer who called
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 bill bishop he wrote a book it was a bestseller called the big
00:02:23 --> 00:02:31 sort and it talked about how we are sorting to actually segregating ourselves
00:02:31 --> 00:02:40 into like-minded communities and that's only has worsened since 2008 and one
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 political writer really thinks,
00:02:43 --> 00:02:46 that I've read recently, really thinks that nothing good can come of this.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 In December 2024, right after that presidential election,
00:02:51 --> 00:03:00 Michael Baharain wrote in The Liberal Patriot about his worries concerning the
00:03:00 --> 00:03:02 increasing polarization of America.
00:03:02 --> 00:03:06 And he wrote the following, quote, one of the more distressing developments
00:03:06 --> 00:03:11 over the past couple of decades has been America's worsening political and cultural polarization.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:20 American identities today are more rooted in partisan affiliation and social
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 class than in the past, which has created new fault lines in public life. Unquote.
00:03:27 --> 00:03:32 And he continues on how this affects the future of our republic.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:39 Quote, as many Americans start to move, starts to more deeply embrace these identities,
00:03:40 --> 00:03:45 they risk becoming estranged from their fellow citizens who vote,
00:03:45 --> 00:03:51 think, and live differently and less likely to encounter non-charicatured versions of them.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:57 Over time, this can produce higher levels of intergroup hostility and mistrust.
00:03:58 --> 00:04:02 What might have once been considered minor, if still meaningful disagreements
00:04:02 --> 00:04:09 about a certain issue or policy, may now seem like existential battles for the soul of the nation.
00:04:11 --> 00:04:18 This sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it? So, Michael Baharain is my guest today.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 And before that, our conversation a little bit about Michael.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:27 He is the chief political analyst for the Liberal Patriot.
00:04:28 --> 00:04:36 Which is, or sadly, was a great sub-stack that was trying to work to bring back
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 kind of the bring and swing,
00:04:38 --> 00:04:44 hopefully, the Democrats back to a more, I won't say centrist,
00:04:45 --> 00:04:51 but definitely to a party that was more focused on economic issues,
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 especially towards the working class.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:59 Unfortunately, that Substack, which has been around now for about six years,
00:04:59 --> 00:05:04 shut down because sadly they could not find an audience anymore.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:12 But hopefully we will see more things from Michael.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:17 But in the meantime, he is a native of Kansas City, currently lives in Atlanta
00:05:17 --> 00:05:23 and writes another Substack, his own, called Checks and Balances on Substack.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:29 Now, a little bit of a note, there are times when I don't talk about faith on
00:05:29 --> 00:05:35 this podcast, this is one of those times, and while faith is not mentioned here,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:37 this is important for the church.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 As Christians, we believe in the ministry of reconciliation,
00:05:41 --> 00:05:47 we believe in gathering especially around a communion table,
00:05:47 --> 00:05:55 and where it doesn't really matter what party we belong to, but we live in a
00:05:55 --> 00:05:56 world where that does matter.
00:05:56 --> 00:06:03 So, as Christians, we need to be about thinking about how this affects us and
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 how we can be a witness to a better way.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:13 So, with all that out of the way, let's hear about the dangers of political
00:06:13 --> 00:06:18 polarization in America and what we can do about it in this discussion with Michael Baharain.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:44 Well, I wanted to start off by just getting to know a little bit about you.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:48 I know that I learned about you as being a writer for The Liberal Patriot,
00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 but to know a little bit more about you.
00:06:52 --> 00:07:00 Sure. Well, thanks for having me. So I have been working in politics for probably about 13 years now.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:08 A lot of my work has been analytical. I do a lot of analysis of elections,
00:07:08 --> 00:07:15 national politics, state-level politics, and a lot of what informs that work
00:07:15 --> 00:07:19 and the interest in that has been my upbringing in the Midwest.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 I'm from Kansas City, Missouri originally.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:29 And when I got to D.C., I quickly found I was one of the few Midwesterners who
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 worked in national politics.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:38 It was like spotting an albino squirrel or something when I came across somebody
00:07:38 --> 00:07:39 else who was from the Midwest.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:47 And over the past decade or so, especially since a lot of that overlapped with
00:07:47 --> 00:07:48 the start of the Trump era,
00:07:48 --> 00:07:55 I started to kind of notice how the parties were changing over time,
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 ideologically, demographically.
00:07:59 --> 00:08:03 And just doing the data analysis work that I did, I could kind of see how this
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 was playing out at a very fundamental level.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:12 And I started to become more interested in that kind of work and looking at those things.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:16 It led me to, you know, I come from the democratic side of the equation.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:25 I started to see over time some behaviors or specific attitudes from people
00:08:25 --> 00:08:29 who had been sort of in my party for a long time that I felt like were not very
00:08:29 --> 00:08:32 productive, that I thought were.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 I don't I mean this in the most objective sense
00:08:37 --> 00:08:39 but kind of ignorant of other kinds of
00:08:39 --> 00:08:43 people who didn't see the world the way that they did and
00:08:43 --> 00:08:47 it's you know so I started kind of taking keen interest in studying that
00:08:47 --> 00:08:51 figuring out why that was how did that overlap with how
00:08:51 --> 00:08:55 the Democrats had been losing support in certain parts of the country and certain
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 voters who had supported them for a long time for many decades in some cases
00:08:58 --> 00:09:04 and then it also got me interested in this sort of more macro level questions
00:09:04 --> 00:09:07 about political polarization and,
00:09:07 --> 00:09:10 you know, the root causes of that,
00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 what have been the consequences of that, both electorally and socially.
00:09:13 --> 00:09:18 So, you know, I find this all interesting in a very, you know,
00:09:19 --> 00:09:24 intellectual sense, but I also think there are very real consequences to all these questions.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:28 And so that hence my interest in a.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:36 Yeah, and I mean, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was because I've
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 followed some of your writings, especially, I think,
00:09:39 --> 00:09:45 on what you see as a danger with our political polarization.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:49 That it's not just, oh, well, people don't speak to one another anymore,
00:09:49 --> 00:09:55 isn't that sad, but that it can have really dire consequences for us as a nation.
00:09:55 --> 00:10:02 And the thing that really kind of made me want to talk to you is this survey
00:10:02 --> 00:10:11 that just came out recently from Pew that had the United States alone among
00:10:11 --> 00:10:13 all the nations that they surveyed,
00:10:13 --> 00:10:22 where people viewed their neighbors basically dangerously, especially if they
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 had a differing political opinion.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 And I guess I'm kind of curious what you kind of thought about that and thought
00:10:29 --> 00:10:35 about that survey and how did we get here is probably one question I have.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 Yeah, it's pretty alarming.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:44 I think it's one of many data points that kind of paints this picture of an
00:10:44 --> 00:10:49 America that's sort of coming apart a little bit, just at least culturally, politically.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 And, you know, to your point, and maybe we can touch on this in a minute,
00:10:56 --> 00:11:01 but there are a lot of real world consequences to kind of this estrangement
00:11:01 --> 00:11:05 between America's, you know, two political parties or political tribes,
00:11:05 --> 00:11:06 if you want to think of it that way.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 I think there's a lot of stuff that has underpinned this. The things that often
00:11:10 --> 00:11:15 jump out in the research and that I just see even in my own day-to-day life
00:11:15 --> 00:11:19 are that it's kind of the atomization of American life.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:26 In so many ways, we don't have to interact with really anybody that we don't
00:11:26 --> 00:11:30 want to interact with anymore, whether it's in the real world or online or elsewhere.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 Take, set aside politics for just a second. You know, you don't have to leave
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 your house on a given day just to live your life.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 You can order stuff to your door, you know, food or groceries.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:44 You don't have to go to the movies to see a movie. You can stream it on your TV.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 You can get a lot of stuff on your computer. And so, you know,
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 this is sort of the Robert Putnam thesis of bowling alone.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 Over a long period of time, many decades, we've kind of retreated more and more inward.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:01 We have fewer close friends. We have fewer social connections, these kinds of things.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:09 And as that has happened, we have become less acquainted with our neighbors.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:14 We don't know as much about them. We don't know necessarily.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 We don't have a clear, accurate picture of what they believe,
00:12:17 --> 00:12:20 how they view the world, or why they believe those things.
00:12:21 --> 00:12:26 And what fills that void oftentimes is cable news, it's social media,
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 it's caricatures or stereotypes.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:33 And so, you know, this has happened both in the real world and online.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:40 And it's made it very easy for a lot of Americans to kind of self-sort into comfortable spaces.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:46 And that increasingly means be around people who share your politics,
00:12:46 --> 00:12:49 never have to interact with people who don't share your politics.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:52 And the way this gets dangerous is that when you don't know people,
00:12:53 --> 00:12:53 you don't understand them.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 And when you don't understand them, it's much easier to see them as a threat,
00:12:57 --> 00:13:03 especially in the political arena where questions of power are at stake.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:09 And so, you know, I think there are, I think people who are out there right
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 now doing work to figure out how to repair a lot of these broken bonds.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:20 It's, it's, it's desperately needed right now because I think right now from
00:13:20 --> 00:13:21 all the trend lines I've seen, there's very,
00:13:22 --> 00:13:25 very little at the moment that is giving me hope that we are kind of the pendulum
00:13:25 --> 00:13:29 is swinging back a little bit other than people's, you know,
00:13:29 --> 00:13:32 kind of widespread exhaustion with just being angry all the time.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:38 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that has, this is an interesting ear
00:13:38 --> 00:13:43 to side, but I sometimes wonder about the decline of the mall.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:51 I'm a Gen X or a kid of the 80s. I remember that was a time when malls were
00:13:51 --> 00:13:53 just crowded. There were lots of people there.
00:13:55 --> 00:13:59 You know, people gathered at a mall. And it wasn't like, you know,
00:13:59 --> 00:14:04 necessarily they knew one another, but they were outside. They actually had to deal with people.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:10 And malls, especially in the United States, are kind of dying.
00:14:11 --> 00:14:17 And, you know, we usually say, well, of course, that's about things like Amazon.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:18 And there is some truth to that.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:24 And the problem with that is that you don't ever, I mean, I would admit I order stuff on Amazon.
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 But then you don't have to deal with someone. You don't have to talk to someone.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:31 Um and as much
00:14:31 --> 00:14:34 as people have maligned malls they still
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 brought people together and i feel like online stuff
00:14:37 --> 00:14:42 doesn't always i won't say it never brings people together but it's really easy
00:14:42 --> 00:14:48 to never have to deal with anyone sure yeah and i mean at the risk of of sounding
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 like a total luddite you know who did never be on social media i'm obviously
00:14:52 --> 00:14:55 on social media i think there are certainly communal benefits.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 You know, I mean, there are people who maybe have a hard time connecting in
00:14:59 --> 00:15:02 the real world, but they can find a community online.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:04 You know, I think that's great. Um...
00:15:05 --> 00:15:10 But for a lot of people, there is nothing that is an adequate substitute for
00:15:10 --> 00:15:12 that real world connection.
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15 And yeah, malls are a great example of this.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:21 And it's just a common space where you know you will run into other people in
00:15:21 --> 00:15:25 the real world and you will meet strangers, you'll meet your neighbors,
00:15:25 --> 00:15:26 people in your community,
00:15:26 --> 00:15:30 people who you can just strike up a conversation with because of the fact that
00:15:30 --> 00:15:34 you live in the same place and you know some of the same people or whatever it might be.
00:15:34 --> 00:15:42 I remember reading sometime last year that people were kind of drawing a link
00:15:42 --> 00:15:45 between growing suburbanization,
00:15:45 --> 00:15:53 reliance on the car, living in single family homes, in these kind of sprawling,
00:15:53 --> 00:15:57 nondescript suburbs and parts all over the country.
00:15:58 --> 00:16:03 As a reason why some of this might be happening where, you know,
00:16:03 --> 00:16:07 whereas urban societies for, you know,
00:16:07 --> 00:16:12 ever, people kind of had to go into a shared space in person,
00:16:12 --> 00:16:19 walk around, go to a market, go to, you know, work, whatever it might be.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 You were inevitably going to come into contact with other people.
00:16:23 --> 00:16:27 And in some of these sprawling suburban areas, you don't have those central
00:16:27 --> 00:16:33 locations anymore. You don't have a little historic downtown square with restaurants
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 and cafes and places where you can just go mingle with people.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:41 And some people want that. They want the space. In some ways,
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 that is kind of the American dream, right?
00:16:43 --> 00:16:49 That you can have a nice car and not have to take public transportation,
00:16:49 --> 00:16:53 or you can have your own large home on a plot of land and you don't have to
00:16:53 --> 00:16:57 be in a, you know, building with, you know, dozens of other people, right?
00:16:58 --> 00:17:02 But I think we're kind of seeing that over the long term now,
00:17:02 --> 00:17:08 the pendulum has swung in a way where the trade-offs of that lifestyle for a
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11 lot of people are that we just come into contact with people a lot less,
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16 not to mention all the technological advancements, automation, these kinds of things.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:21 And so what I love to see, and I live in the Atlanta area right now,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:25 and I've seen this in some of the suburban communities outside of Atlanta,
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 where they're starting to build these.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 These are areas that have grown precipitously in the last couple of decades.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:37 But that it was just kind of, you know, normal suburbanization.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 It was just a lot of these subdivisions and stuff. And now a lot of them are
00:17:40 --> 00:17:46 starting to create their own town centers, these greens and places for people
00:17:46 --> 00:17:47 to convene, which I think is great.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50 And so you can kind of maybe have your cake and eat it too.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:55 You can have the quiet home and the quiet suburb and have your car and stuff,
00:17:55 --> 00:17:59 but you also have an opportunity to come out and meet your neighbors.
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 And I think that's great. I hope we see more of that. I think that's one of
00:18:02 --> 00:18:05 the ways that we can kind of start to restore some of these bonds.
00:18:06 --> 00:18:10 Yeah, I think I've seen that in some of the suburbs here in the Twin Cities.
00:18:11 --> 00:18:17 And I think one of the things about the suburbanization is that when it happened
00:18:17 --> 00:18:25 in the 50s and 60s, there were still, I think, other things that could tie you to a larger community.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:31 Whereas I think today, there's very little, if anything, now.
00:18:31 --> 00:18:37 Yeah, it's very true. Um, you know, there's a, uh, there was a documentary,
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 I think it came out last year, the year before called, um, join or die.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:46 And, uh, it was actually, it was based on this new movement that came out of
00:18:46 --> 00:18:51 Robert Putnam's, um, research about how, how, you know, people are kind of less
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 associated with each other in like formal associations.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 You used to have, you know, scouts and youth sports and the Kiwanis Club and
00:18:58 --> 00:19:00 the Rotary Club, all these civic organizations, churches,
00:19:01 --> 00:19:06 which I know is probably very near and dear to you, where you would have these
00:19:06 --> 00:19:10 opportunities to, you know, if something in your life wasn't going well,
00:19:10 --> 00:19:14 you had a community to fall back on, right? Like you just knew that that was there for you.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:18 And over time, participation in a lot of these organizations has gone down.
00:19:18 --> 00:19:22 And, you know, there's probably any number of reasons for that.
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 But I think, you know, this is one of the things, maybe if we're looking for
00:19:26 --> 00:19:31 signs of hope of how we can kind of reconnect with people, I think there's a
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 lot of research right now that Americans at kind of record numbers are feeling
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 lonely, feeling isolated.
00:19:39 --> 00:19:45 And whether they're thinking about this in broader terms of the need for the
00:19:45 --> 00:19:49 importance of community, it's still important to them in their daily lives, right?
00:19:49 --> 00:19:52 If you don't have a community that you can fall back on, if you're going through
00:19:52 --> 00:19:56 a hard time, it's even harder because you feel like you're by yourself.
00:19:56 --> 00:20:02 And so that gives me a little hope that out of kind of our own self-preservation, um,
00:20:03 --> 00:20:07 we will start looking for, uh, more ways to build out this community,
00:20:08 --> 00:20:12 whether it's building kind of a town center, um, or reinvigorating some of these
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 civic organizations, uh, reinvigorating churches.
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 You know, I know there are some people who are working on kind of trying to
00:20:18 --> 00:20:22 do that and give people a place to, to go and just be with other people,
00:20:22 --> 00:20:26 but also, you know, kind of have some time to be, be a little bit introspective.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:31 So i think that's all great and i hope that we see you know more of that in years to.
00:20:33 --> 00:20:38 So, you know, one of the things I remember, and you probably do too,
00:20:39 --> 00:20:45 but this is now hard to believe 18 years ago, was the book The Big Sort.
00:20:45 --> 00:20:50 And I thought that was a really great book to talk about how things,
00:20:50 --> 00:20:57 basically how, especially how we were sorting ourselves out politically,
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 how much America in many ways had changed.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:09 And as I said, that book came out 18 years ago, which is almost another universe.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:14 And this is still an issue. We're still talking about it.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:24 Why are we so almost resistant to wanting to reach across the aisle to talk
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 to someone who may be different from us?
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 What is kind of keeping us from doing that?
00:21:34 --> 00:21:37 Yeah. There's a lot of ways I could take this. I think one is opportunity.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:46 I think a lot of people – there was last – 2024, it was actually just before the 2024 election.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 The New York Times had a very interesting
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51 analysis that kind of builds a little bit off of the big sword,
00:21:52 --> 00:22:01 where they looked at the changing migration patterns of Americans domestically
00:22:01 --> 00:22:05 since COVID, and they looked at it on the basis of politics.
00:22:05 --> 00:22:09 So they were basically looking at people who moved from one place, went to another.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:14 What was the partisanship of that first place? What was the partisanship of
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 the new place? And what they found was that,
00:22:17 --> 00:22:24 in a lot of ways, we were self-sorting ourselves further and further into places
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 that kind of reinforced our own politics.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:32 So Democrats, if a Democratic family was moving, they might move from a neighborhood
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36 that voted for Biden by 12 points to another neighborhood in another city that
00:22:36 --> 00:22:38 voted for Biden by 23 points.
00:22:39 --> 00:22:42 Same thing with Trump voters kind of in the other direction.
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 And what was interesting was that they said it's not necessarily that people
00:22:45 --> 00:22:50 are intentionally sorting themselves on the basis of politics.
00:22:50 --> 00:22:53 They're not necessarily saying, I want to go somewhere that's even more blue
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 or more red than where I'm from. Some people may.
00:22:56 --> 00:23:01 But a lot of what informs our politics is also kind of our culture and the things
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 that we just kind of care about day to day.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 So if you're a Democrat, you might appreciate being someplace that is more walkable,
00:23:08 --> 00:23:14 that has public transportation, where you can get any number of different kinds of cuisine for dinner.
00:23:14 --> 00:23:17 If you're a conservative, you might be more interested in space.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 Having a large plot of land that's near a wooded area or something like that.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:27 And so we're kind of, even subconsciously sometimes, adding to that part of
00:23:27 --> 00:23:34 political segregation just because of other factors that kind of are upstream from our politics.
00:23:34 --> 00:23:40 And so people might look around and say, well, maybe I'm actually interested
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43 in trying to get to know people who have different politics than me,
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 but I don't see any near here.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:50 I live in a very politically homogenous area. So I think that's one reason.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:54 And another reason I think is, again,
00:23:55 --> 00:23:56 this kind of gets to what we were talking about at the beginning,
00:23:57 --> 00:24:02 where when we get more estranged from people who think differently from us,
00:24:02 --> 00:24:07 then we stop kind of understanding why they do.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:15 And I saw this a lot in my democratic social circles, where especially after
00:24:15 --> 00:24:17 Trump won his first election.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:24 You know, a lot of the people who voted for Trump were not in our social circle.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 So we didn't, a lot of my friends did not know those kinds of people.
00:24:27 --> 00:24:35 And so it was easy to just stereotype, to kind of be dismissive and to conclude, okay, Trump is this way.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:40 He's mean, you know, he's has bad morals. He's ignorant, whatever.
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 That must mean that all the people who voted for him are the same.
00:24:45 --> 00:24:49 And if that's the case, why would I even want to interact with them?
00:24:49 --> 00:24:55 You know, if they were okay condoning certain behaviors or, you know,
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 whatever the reason for their vote, then they're a bad person.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00 And why would I want to vote for them?
00:25:00 --> 00:25:05 And I've heard from and talked to conservatives who think the exact same thing about Democrats.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09 And I think part of what has happened is we convince ourselves that just because
00:25:09 --> 00:25:14 somebody thinks differently, they're automatically bad, that they must be motivated
00:25:14 --> 00:25:18 by bad intentions. They must, you know, genuinely like having bad morals.
00:25:19 --> 00:25:24 And if we kind of can take a step back for a second and think about that,
00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 it doesn't really make sense.
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29 Most people arrive at their views because they think these are the right views.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 These are the moral views.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:35 But it's hard to kind of see that in the fog of political conflict.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:39 And so a lot of people end up just convincing themselves, well,
00:25:39 --> 00:25:43 actually, it's not even worth engaging with people on that side because they're
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 just bad people. And like, I don't have to do that if I don't want to.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:48 I'm going to stay here with the good people.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:54 And that, I think, leads to where we are right now, which is a lot of confusion and lack of mistrust.
00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 And just it's hard for people to understand each other.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:06 Does the fact that the parties themselves have become more homogenous also play a role?
00:26:06 --> 00:26:11 And I know this is probably somewhat up your alley with the liberal patriot,
00:26:11 --> 00:26:18 is that the parties maybe 30, 40 years ago seemed a lot more diverse.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:22 You had still very moderate to liberal Republicans.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:28 You had more moderate to conservative Democrats or pro-life Democrats.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:37 That you don't have that anymore, that the parties seem to be a lot more ideologically pure.
00:26:37 --> 00:26:43 Yeah. And it's sort of the duality of a two-party system.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:50 It's funny, there was a political science report, I think it was back in the 50s or the 60s.
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53 Oh, yeah. I know which one you're talking about. Yeah, they basically,
00:26:53 --> 00:27:01 they encouraged the two parties to make themselves more distinct from one another,
00:27:01 --> 00:27:04 that this overlapping was a problem and it wasn't good for democracy.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:10 And, you know, over time, that is exactly what happened. And this is kind of the result of it.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:15 And whereas in other countries, especially a lot of European countries that
00:27:15 --> 00:27:20 have different kinds of electoral systems, that make it likelier to have more
00:27:20 --> 00:27:21 than two political parties.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 Here, you've pretty much got two options. If you end up being an independent
00:27:26 --> 00:27:33 voter or a third-party voter, in most cases, you're guaranteeing that your vote is going to waste.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 And so most people, by necessity, end up identifying with one of the two parties.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:42 And it reinforces this idea that there's two tribes at war, basically.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:49 And just as our kind of tribal evolution has led us to think.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:56 It's made us very – sorry, let me rephrase that. Our evolution has made us very tribal.
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 We've been tribal creatures from the dawn of man.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:08 And when we see another tribe, it kind of internally, our minds tell us,
00:28:08 --> 00:28:12 well, that tribe maybe is not to be trusted. Maybe they're a threat to people like us.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:16 Um, and, and when it's, especially when it's that black and white,
00:28:16 --> 00:28:17 there's one side and there's another side.
00:28:17 --> 00:28:22 Um, it, it makes it easier for people to, um, kind of just say,
00:28:22 --> 00:28:23 if you're not with us, you're with them.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26 And if you're with them, then you're not to be trusted. You're a problem.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:27 If you're with us, you're protected.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:31 But also if you're with us, you are with us the whole way.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 And there is less room and flexibility for you to have an original opinion or
00:28:36 --> 00:28:41 to kind of stray from the fold on an issue that we care a lot about.
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 For Democrats. There's quite a few issues you could probably tick off where
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 that's the case. For Republicans right now, the biggest one is you have to be in favor of Trump.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 If you're in favor of Trump, you can probably believe in any number of other
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 things. If you're not in favor of Trump, you're not welcome here.
00:28:57 --> 00:29:01 I think that the party system being what it is here,
00:29:01 --> 00:29:06 where you don't really have any robust third or fourth or fifth options,
00:29:06 --> 00:29:11 it just reinforces this idea that there's two sides and that if you're not with
00:29:11 --> 00:29:12 us, you're with the other side.
00:29:14 --> 00:29:20 Yeah, I mean, I always think when I hear about that survey from political scientists
00:29:20 --> 00:29:26 back in the 50s, it's like, yeah, I wish you could see how that turned out. Didn't turn out so well.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:37 For someone who thinks, okay, political polarization isn't a big deal,
00:29:37 --> 00:29:42 how is this damaging to American democracy?
00:29:42 --> 00:29:50 I think we talk a lot about how the other side is threatening American democracy,
00:29:50 --> 00:29:56 but how does political polarization itself weaken our democratic tradition?
00:29:57 --> 00:30:03 Yeah, well... You know, for countries to be healthy, they have to have some
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 shared sense of a national identity.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:10 I mean, we can see this all throughout, you know, history.
00:30:11 --> 00:30:17 Societies where the tribe or the group identity is stronger than the national
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 identity, those are societies that often end up in violent conflict with one
00:30:20 --> 00:30:24 another, whether it's a civil war or a genocide or anything else.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:31 Countries that have strong national identities tend to not be at risk so much
00:30:31 --> 00:30:32 of those kinds of things.
00:30:33 --> 00:30:40 And look, it's hard. It's hard to, especially in our current era where people
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44 are so migratory and societies, especially Western societies,
00:30:44 --> 00:30:46 are becoming ever more diverse.
00:30:47 --> 00:30:51 You've got people of different religious faiths, different ethnicities.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:56 A whole gamut of identities living together, trying to figure out not only how
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 to coexist, but what do they have in common with one another?
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 And I don't think there's any society that's really figured that out.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:09 I do think something that gives me hope for the US in this regard is that we
00:31:09 --> 00:31:16 are one of the only modern nations that was founded on an idea as opposed to a specific identity.
00:31:17 --> 00:31:24 And it makes it so that these immutable characteristics sometimes that keep
00:31:24 --> 00:31:28 people divided and that make them think, you're on that side, I'm on this side. Um...
00:31:28 --> 00:31:32 When if your national identity is wrapped up in looking a certain way,
00:31:33 --> 00:31:37 speaking a certain language, you know, having ancestry within a certain set
00:31:37 --> 00:31:42 of borders, it's hard for anybody else to ever feel like they are fully part of that.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:47 And when your society starts changing, that can feel really destabilizing.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 I think one of the things, it may not feel like it right now with all of the
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54 fights that the U.S. has had over immigration, but the fact that the U.S.
00:31:55 --> 00:32:00 Has been a country of immigrants since its founding and that has made it,
00:32:00 --> 00:32:07 even though we've had dark chapters of nativism and rejecting new waves of immigrants,
00:32:07 --> 00:32:14 I do think it has made it a little bit easier for us to figure out how to manage immigration.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:18 I mean, you really don't have a party right now, unlike in parts of Europe,
00:32:18 --> 00:32:23 that says, we don't want any immigrants, period. That is our policy. That is our platform.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:30 We may look at kicking people out just because they aren't true Germans or true Frenchmen or whatever.
00:32:31 --> 00:32:35 You don't really have that here. You do have people who are very strict about
00:32:35 --> 00:32:39 immigration, But even to listen to most Republicans and to look at polling data on this,
00:32:40 --> 00:32:45 I think more in common who studies political polarization recently had a study,
00:32:46 --> 00:32:50 a survey of Trump voters, and they asked about legal immigration.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:55 It was upwards of 80 percent said, no, we're totally fine with legal immigration.
00:32:55 --> 00:33:00 In fact, we support it like our concerns are about illegal immigration, right?
00:33:00 --> 00:33:02 Not following the rules, not enforcing the border, this kind of thing.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:06 And all of which is to say, I think for the U.S..
00:33:07 --> 00:33:14 It gives me some hope that we have an ability to overcome these immutable characteristics
00:33:14 --> 00:33:18 that in other places might make it so that we don't feel like people who look
00:33:18 --> 00:33:23 different from us or who think different from us or pray differently from us are truly American.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:30 What really matters is shared support of the ideals, you know,
00:33:30 --> 00:33:33 set forth by the founders, the ideals of the American dream,
00:33:33 --> 00:33:36 you know, working hard, playing by the rules, freedom and equality,
00:33:36 --> 00:33:39 these kinds of things. And again, it's not perfect.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:43 You know, everybody has different notions of what these things even mean, right?
00:33:44 --> 00:33:48 But that gives me some hope that over the long run,
00:33:48 --> 00:33:53 we can overcome some of these more tribal battles that we're fighting right
00:33:53 --> 00:34:00 now and find a way to kind of embrace a broader national identity.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:09 Where do you think I'm trying to how do I ask this but,
00:34:10 --> 00:34:15 how bad could it get is what I'm actually trying to get at I think because you
00:34:15 --> 00:34:21 kind of have talked about that in a few different articles that this could get get bad,
00:34:22 --> 00:34:27 what could that what does that look like because I think sometimes we kind of
00:34:27 --> 00:34:30 talk about this as if you know oh it's a bad thing but,
00:34:31 --> 00:34:34 This could lead to something bad. Yeah. What does that look like?
00:34:35 --> 00:34:39 Well, you know, I know that there are, I mean, you can see it in polling data.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:42 There are certainly fears that the U.S. could go through another civil war.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:48 You know, that would be the worst case scenario. Civil war, breaking apart, splitting.
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52 I think we are such an integrated country now.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56 We don't have northern states and southern states. We have, you know,
00:34:56 --> 00:35:00 if anything, it's sort of big urban areas, metropolitan areas,
00:35:00 --> 00:35:03 and, you know, more sparsely populated areas is kind of the divide.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:06 But you have a lot of Democrats who live in red states who live in rural areas.
00:35:06 --> 00:35:09 You have a lot of Republicans who live in major metro areas and blue states.
00:35:09 --> 00:35:14 Um, so I don't think that that is a realistic future.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:19 Having said that, and we've already seen some of this, um, there is absolutely,
00:35:20 --> 00:35:25 uh, a, a risk of, of sustained political violence.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 Um, you know, we've seen our politically motivated violence.
00:35:28 --> 00:35:31 We've seen assassinations of high profile figures or assassination attempts.
00:35:32 --> 00:35:36 We've seen, you know, different groups fighting on the streets,
00:35:37 --> 00:35:38 especially back in 2020.
00:35:39 --> 00:35:42 You know, you would see images coming out of Portland of Proud Boys,
00:35:42 --> 00:35:45 you know, and BLM protesters, right?
00:35:45 --> 00:35:51 And I think in a scenario where things get even worse, you'll see a lot more of that.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:57 You will see, you know, the violence escalating to the point of probably deaths.
00:35:58 --> 00:36:04 And you know the thing is for folks who want to get a good glimpse of what it
00:36:04 --> 00:36:09 could look like there was a movie from a year or two ago called Civil War,
00:36:10 --> 00:36:15 and it was really well done it was by the director Alex Garland and he deliberately
00:36:15 --> 00:36:20 took a non-partisan lens and just said this is what daily life could end up
00:36:20 --> 00:36:26 looking like in America if it were to devolve to that point and what was interesting was that,
00:36:26 --> 00:36:31 A lot of the fighting, a lot of the violence was between active groups,
00:36:32 --> 00:36:37 groups who were very highly political, were on the front lines kind of fighting
00:36:37 --> 00:36:39 for power, power struggle.
00:36:39 --> 00:36:43 But there's a scene where he shows the main characters kind of driving through
00:36:43 --> 00:36:46 a small town and they get there and it just looks like, well,
00:36:46 --> 00:36:47 this place has been untouched.
00:36:48 --> 00:36:52 Nothing bad is going on here. And then they start to notice little signs that
00:36:52 --> 00:36:57 even places like this talent they were going through have life has changed.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:02 You know, even if you don't think that, you know, political violence will end
00:37:02 --> 00:37:06 up impacting you, it really does at some point reach everybody and it starts
00:37:06 --> 00:37:10 to disrupt daily life and you can't just go about your normal business.
00:37:11 --> 00:37:14 And so that's, I think, you know, when people think about, well,
00:37:14 --> 00:37:16 why does this matter? Like, is this going to impact me?
00:37:17 --> 00:37:22 You know, things may seem like they're faraway problems, but if we were to get
00:37:22 --> 00:37:24 to that place as a society,
00:37:24 --> 00:37:31 you know, I don't think there would be many Americans who could just say,
00:37:31 --> 00:37:36 I'm going to kind of live my normal life and, you know, you guys kind of deal with the problems.
00:37:36 --> 00:37:39 It may seem like that in ways, you know, there will be people who will be more
00:37:39 --> 00:37:41 caught up in that kind of stuff.
00:37:41 --> 00:37:48 But I think that's the worst case scenario is this widespread sustained violence.
00:37:48 --> 00:37:54 And I don't think anybody wants that. I mean, I think most people don't see
00:37:54 --> 00:37:59 their neighbors as such a threat to their livelihoods that they would be willing
00:37:59 --> 00:38:00 to take up arms against them,
00:38:01 --> 00:38:03 even if they're annoyed with them, even if they don't get them,
00:38:04 --> 00:38:05 even if They think that they're bad people.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:12 But it doesn't take much to light that fuse and for that stuff to spread.
00:38:13 --> 00:38:16 So I think that's what we have to try and stave off. That's why this stuff matters.
00:38:17 --> 00:38:20 You know, dealing with polarization, this kind of cold war, if I would maybe
00:38:20 --> 00:38:23 call it right now before it gets to that.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:30 Yeah, I mean, what you're describing, and I didn't see Civil War when it came out,
00:38:30 --> 00:38:42 but it almost sounds more like Northern Ireland or Lebanon, probably until the early 90s.
00:38:42 --> 00:38:46 In that kind of sectarian kind
00:38:46 --> 00:38:49 of violence that it wasn't you know regimented armies
00:38:49 --> 00:38:52 as you would think the civil war was but it's
00:38:52 --> 00:38:55 it's literally kind of street to
00:38:55 --> 00:38:59 street kind of nasty kind
00:38:59 --> 00:39:02 of violence i think the troubles are the troubles
00:39:02 --> 00:39:05 are a great analogy um for sure you know you had
00:39:05 --> 00:39:08 two very clearly defined groups that you
00:39:08 --> 00:39:11 know they weren't segregated along a clean line
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 you know north and south but neighborhood by neighborhood
00:39:14 --> 00:39:17 and um you know that
00:39:17 --> 00:39:19 that lasted for a long time until people were finally
00:39:19 --> 00:39:22 tired of just fighting all the time and the death and
00:39:22 --> 00:39:28 the destruction to their communities and stuff so i think the the hope for societies
00:39:28 --> 00:39:31 like the u.s and other western societies that are also um dealing with their
00:39:31 --> 00:39:37 own kind of tribalism and polarization is that we we learn from history and
00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 and kind of stave that off before it gets to that.
00:39:44 --> 00:39:48 Okay. So we've seen what could, could happen. How do we prevent it?
00:39:49 --> 00:39:52 What are some ways of trying to, to lower the temperature?
00:39:53 --> 00:40:02 Yeah. Um, there's a lot. Um, I, so one of the things that I found helped me, um,
00:40:03 --> 00:40:08 kind of better understand, uh, people who, who were on the other side of,
00:40:08 --> 00:40:10 of a lot of political questions for me.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:13 Um, and also to kind of see them more clearly for who they are,
00:40:14 --> 00:40:20 um, was, you know, to, to try to, uh, the first thing I did was I, I diversified my news.
00:40:21 --> 00:40:24 Um, it sounds like a small thing, but it's a very doable thing.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:27 Um, I think for a lot of people, you know, we kind of talked earlier about how
00:40:27 --> 00:40:32 we've in the real world segregated politically, um, you know,
00:40:32 --> 00:40:36 into kind of more blue areas, more, um, red areas.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:42 And so, you know, to kind of find ways to talk to people in the real world,
00:40:42 --> 00:40:44 it can be, it can be hard for if you're looking for people who think differently
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 from you, but we all live online lives or most people.
00:40:48 --> 00:40:52 And so one of the things that I did, and this was shortly after Trump won the first time around.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:56 So I've been doing this for almost a decade now was I diversified my news feed.
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 I diversified my social media feeds, not all of them, but I tried to kind of
00:40:59 --> 00:41:05 make force myself to be exposed to people who thought differently from me.
00:41:05 --> 00:41:11 Um, and it, it over time has had the effect of allowing me to,
00:41:11 --> 00:41:17 um, steel man, uh, you know, term people know straw manning steel manning is seeing.
00:41:18 --> 00:41:23 Another person's point of view in the, in the strongest possible argument,
00:41:23 --> 00:41:24 uh, making the strongest possible argument.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:31 Um, you know, that kind of helped disabuse me of a lot of the kind of caricatured
00:41:31 --> 00:41:35 ideas that I had of people on the other side.
00:41:35 --> 00:41:39 And, Oh, you know, you must only think X because you're a bad person,
00:41:39 --> 00:41:41 or you must think this view that you don't actually think.
00:41:42 --> 00:41:46 And it kind of helped me realize, Oh, there are a lot of very smart people who
00:41:46 --> 00:41:49 have different views than mine, it's probably worth engaging with those.
00:41:50 --> 00:41:54 So that's one thing. There are also a lot of organizations that people want
00:41:54 --> 00:41:58 to actually find opportunities in the real world,
00:41:59 --> 00:42:03 to just kind of break bread with people who are a little bit different,
00:42:03 --> 00:42:09 but to do it in kind of a safe environment where you're not starting on edge.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:14 There are a lot of organizations that are trying to foster those dialogues and bring people together.
00:42:14 --> 00:42:20 One of the ones that I have started to try to get involved with is called Braver Angels.
00:42:20 --> 00:42:25 And they have actually a methodology called,
00:42:25 --> 00:42:33 for, um, like reds and blues, Republicans and Democrats to talk together in,
00:42:33 --> 00:42:39 in constructive ways that, um, academic studies have actually shown leads to depolarization.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:42 Um, and I think one thing people get a little confused about,
00:42:42 --> 00:42:43 I want to be very clear about this.
00:42:43 --> 00:42:46 When we're talking about depolarization, we don't necessarily mean,
00:42:46 --> 00:42:50 um, changing all of your views, holding hands, losing kumbaya.
00:42:51 --> 00:42:55 In any society, whether it's politics or religion or culture or whatever,
00:42:56 --> 00:42:58 you're going to have disagreements and that's okay.
00:42:58 --> 00:42:59 And actually that's a good thing
00:42:59 --> 00:43:02 in a lot of ways, especially for the societies to develop and to grow.
00:43:03 --> 00:43:09 What these efforts do is it's just trying to get us to see our opponents,
00:43:09 --> 00:43:14 maybe not even as opponents, but as neighbors who think differently, right?
00:43:14 --> 00:43:18 To see them clearly for who they are, to try to understand their motivations.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:22 A lot of times by the time we're, you know, at each other's throats,
00:43:22 --> 00:43:28 we have, you know, sometimes years or decades of life experience and moral reasoning
00:43:28 --> 00:43:33 and a lot of other things informing those conversations to the point where it
00:43:33 --> 00:43:34 feels like we're speaking a different language.
00:43:34 --> 00:43:39 And so a lot of these groups are doing great work to try and just get people
00:43:39 --> 00:43:44 to understand, just to understand each other, just to hear each other out.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:48 They're not set up to be like debates. At least this is the way that Braver Angels does it.
00:43:48 --> 00:43:51 And there are a lot of other organizations that do similar work that I think
00:43:51 --> 00:43:55 is great. And I think it's important for people to know about and to,
00:43:55 --> 00:43:57 you know, hopefully get involved with in some way.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:05 Do you have some hope that we can kind of tackle this in the long run?
00:44:06 --> 00:44:13 I do have some hope. I have, I would say day to day, my hope meter changes a little bit.
00:44:15 --> 00:44:19 You know, I think, look, one thing that would also help, and this goes to maybe
00:44:19 --> 00:44:22 the previous question, is national leadership.
00:44:23 --> 00:44:28 I mean, one of the things that is really difficult right now in this period
00:44:28 --> 00:44:32 in American history is whatever you think about Donald Trump,
00:44:32 --> 00:44:35 he is a uniquely polarizing figure.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:39 And I think both his detractors and his supporters could acknowledge that.
00:44:40 --> 00:44:47 And one of the things that I think is less helpful personally in how Trump conducts
00:44:47 --> 00:44:53 himself is that it seems oftentimes like he actively looks for ways to antagonize
00:44:53 --> 00:44:58 people who are not in his camp, people who aren't in his tribe. Yeah.
00:44:59 --> 00:45:05 A lot of this, you know, if we're looking to our leaders for some guidance of
00:45:05 --> 00:45:11 what's okay to do, what's permissible behavior, what's not, that kind of stuff, I think,
00:45:11 --> 00:45:17 lends itself to, you know, worsening of these sort of intertribal relations, if you will.
00:45:18 --> 00:45:22 There are leaders, I will say, you know, there are several, especially governors,
00:45:22 --> 00:45:25 some that come to mind are Spencer Cox, a Republican of Utah,
00:45:26 --> 00:45:29 Wes Moore out of Maryland, Josh Shapiro out of Pennsylvania,
00:45:29 --> 00:45:32 who understand that this is a problem.
00:45:32 --> 00:45:37 I mean, the National Governors Association took on political polarization as
00:45:37 --> 00:45:41 their issue for the last couple of years.
00:45:41 --> 00:45:46 So there are people who are very well attuned to this. And I think the more
00:45:46 --> 00:45:47 that we can see that from our leaders,
00:45:47 --> 00:45:54 I think that the more it will create permission structures for average citizens
00:45:54 --> 00:45:57 to start thinking, maybe this is worth my time too.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:04 Maybe some things that I've done or some things that I've said have contributed to this problem.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:08 And so there's those kinds of things.
00:46:08 --> 00:46:14 I think, you know, in our social circles, you know,
00:46:15 --> 00:46:19 in the same way that especially on my side of things among liberals,
00:46:19 --> 00:46:25 you know, we might talk about how it's not okay to make certain derogatory comments
00:46:25 --> 00:46:29 about somebody on the basis of their skin color or on the basis of their sexual
00:46:29 --> 00:46:31 orientation or their religious beliefs or whatever.
00:46:32 --> 00:46:37 We should kind of think about that similarly to when we're talking about people
00:46:37 --> 00:46:38 who have different political beliefs.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:44 Um, that's harder because that's often wrapped up in questions of morality, but, um,
00:46:44 --> 00:46:50 There are healthier and less healthy ways of talking about people who are different in that regard.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:56 I've been in a number of situations where I've heard people say,
00:46:56 --> 00:46:59 make fairly ignorant comments about people that they don't know.
00:47:01 --> 00:47:05 Those are the kinds of opportunities where I think we can talk to our peers
00:47:05 --> 00:47:11 and at least try to lower the temperature a little bit and to bring a little
00:47:11 --> 00:47:15 bit of clarity to some of those conversations. and lessen hostilities.
00:47:15 --> 00:47:20 So there are definitely things that I think can help in that regard,
00:47:20 --> 00:47:25 but it's hard work, and I think it's good to be clear-eyed about that as well.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:31 Final question is, do you think looking into the next few years,
00:47:31 --> 00:47:38 especially as we have midterms coming up and presidential elections in two years,
00:47:38 --> 00:47:45 do you see opportunities where we can come together or is it going to be rough
00:47:45 --> 00:47:47 sailing over the next few years?
00:47:48 --> 00:47:54 I think there certainly will be. I mentioned earlier, I think something that
00:47:54 --> 00:47:59 may finally force this conversation to give is that there is a large chunk of
00:47:59 --> 00:48:01 the country that is just exhausted.
00:48:01 --> 00:48:09 They're tired of feeling outraged and angry and like they can't just talk to
00:48:09 --> 00:48:14 people without politics, you know, pervading and infecting their conversations.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:20 And so I think there's a desire, I think there's an appetite for these kinds of changes.
00:48:22 --> 00:48:26 Can those happen on the thorniest of culture war issues?
00:48:26 --> 00:48:29 I don't know that we will see that in the next couple of years.
00:48:29 --> 00:48:30 I think that's going to take time.
00:48:32 --> 00:48:37 I do think there will be opportunities. And people kind of, I think,
00:48:37 --> 00:48:40 sometimes don't realize there are still bipartisan issues out there.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 And there are new ones forming all the time. And I think one of the ones that
00:48:44 --> 00:48:47 has been of interest to me, because it's relevant to this conversation,
00:48:48 --> 00:48:53 is about social media and smartphones. outcomes.
00:48:54 --> 00:48:57 You see this at the state level. I mean, there are red states and blue states
00:48:57 --> 00:49:03 and purple states that are realizing that there are destructive effects of this technology.
00:49:04 --> 00:49:06 Like they have some utility, but they've also created all kinds of problems,
00:49:06 --> 00:49:08 especially for young people.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:15 And they're starting to come together to implement new policies that I think have both the effect of,
00:49:15 --> 00:49:22 helping with, uh, maintaining young people's mental health, but that also might help over time, um,
00:49:23 --> 00:49:27 you know, kind of force us to, to scale back a little bit and how much all of
00:49:27 --> 00:49:33 us in our daily lives adopt, you know, uh, social use social media or on our smartphones and, um.
00:49:33 --> 00:49:37 You know, which are both kind of platforms for that can contribute to some of
00:49:37 --> 00:49:38 these problems that we're talking about.
00:49:39 --> 00:49:44 Um, there's also, you know, the, the coming impending effects of AI,
00:49:44 --> 00:49:50 you know, on jobs, on really daily living in a lot of ways.
00:49:50 --> 00:49:55 And I think there is a pretty broad consensus that people are a little bit nervous about that.
00:49:55 --> 00:50:01 And it's another opportunity for people who maybe don't see eye to eye on a
00:50:01 --> 00:50:06 lot of things to talk to one another and figure out, hey, how can we come together and work on this?
00:50:06 --> 00:50:11 One of the things that a lot of literature finds that is very helpful in breaking
00:50:11 --> 00:50:17 down some of these divisions is when people come together and find a task to
00:50:17 --> 00:50:20 work on and to partner on, right?
00:50:20 --> 00:50:26 When you're doing that, you're trying to achieve a goal that's bigger than your
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 own individual or group identity and you're working with other people in pursuit of that goal.
00:50:30 --> 00:50:35 This is why during times of war historically, there has been a lot more domestic
00:50:35 --> 00:50:40 harmony in societies, um, because you're working together in pursuit of a goal like that.
00:50:40 --> 00:50:46 And so, you know, I think whether it's the smartphone, uh, issue, whether it's AI.
00:50:47 --> 00:50:50 Whatever else it might be, I think finding opportunities and projects, um,
00:50:51 --> 00:50:55 for people of both sides to be able to find common ground and work together
00:50:55 --> 00:51:00 on, I think that that might offer us our kind of first openings for,
00:51:00 --> 00:51:05 you know, healing some of these divides and trying to kind to rekindle these
00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 bonds that held us together for so long.
00:51:09 --> 00:51:15 Okay. Well, I think that is a good note to end on that there's not,
00:51:16 --> 00:51:18 there's a difference between optimism and hope.
00:51:19 --> 00:51:24 Optimism is kind of that it's going to be a happy ending, but hope is believing
00:51:24 --> 00:51:27 even it might be rough, there's still possibility.
00:51:27 --> 00:51:32 And I think it's good to know there is still possibility that all isn't lost.
00:51:32 --> 00:51:35 Yeah. So, yeah. Well, Michael, thank you so much. It's very hard.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:39 Yeah. Oh, thank you. It's impossible. Yeah.
00:51:41 --> 00:51:44 All right. Well, thank you so much, Michael. Thank you, Dennis.
00:52:15 --> 00:52:20 So I hope that you found that discussion helpful. I will have links to a few
00:52:20 --> 00:52:24 articles from Michael about this topic in the show notes.
00:52:25 --> 00:52:29 And I'm really hoping I can find someone, I want to find someone that I can
00:52:29 --> 00:52:33 talk to about political polarization from a faith perspective,
00:52:33 --> 00:52:36 because I think that that is important too. issue.
00:52:38 --> 00:52:45 This is an issue that I think is becoming a bigger issue.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:53 It's an issue that is affecting the church, especially when we talk about things
00:52:53 --> 00:52:54 like Christian nationalism.
00:52:54 --> 00:52:59 So, I hope that this is a discussion that we can continue, especially from a faith perspective.
00:52:59 --> 00:53:03 And I am really thankful for michael um to
00:53:03 --> 00:53:06 to join me to talk about that to begin it's
00:53:06 --> 00:53:12 funny that um i and i don't know michael's faith background um but it's funny
00:53:12 --> 00:53:18 that he has a quote on his profile on substack that to me actually is somewhat
00:53:18 --> 00:53:25 um important um where he talks about the importance of
00:53:25 --> 00:53:33 what it means to kind of reach out to people and to know each other.
00:53:34 --> 00:53:42 And I think he has his quote, which I've heard before in other contexts, and it's basically,
00:53:42 --> 00:53:47 in politics, as in religion, you can either spend your time hunting for heretics
00:53:47 --> 00:53:49 or looking for converts.
00:53:50 --> 00:53:56 And I think in our culture right now, We have far too many people that are hunting
00:53:56 --> 00:54:03 for heretics, both in our churches, but also in politics, and neither of those are good.
00:54:04 --> 00:54:06 And I hope that we can find...
00:54:07 --> 00:54:14 Excuse me, more people who are willing to look for converts.
00:54:16 --> 00:54:23 So, as usual, if you have any questions or comments, send me an email at churchinmain at substack.com.
00:54:24 --> 00:54:27 If you want to learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes,
00:54:27 --> 00:54:30 or donate, check me out at churchinmain.org.
00:54:31 --> 00:54:35 You can also visit churchinmain.substack.com to read related articles.
00:54:37 --> 00:54:44 And also, please consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.
00:54:44 --> 00:54:48 And I hope that when you do that, that you would leave a rating or a review
00:54:48 --> 00:54:51 because that helps others find this podcast.
00:54:53 --> 00:55:00 Also, just to let you know, I am still considering and thinking about moving podcast hosting.
00:55:01 --> 00:55:06 That will probably come sometime later in April, but just to let you know about
00:55:06 --> 00:55:09 that to give you some time.
00:55:11 --> 00:55:16 If you want to make a donation, you can do so by using the link in the show
00:55:16 --> 00:55:23 notes, and also you can use a link to make sure that this episode gets into your email inbox.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:29 So, that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:55:30 --> 00:55:35 Also, just a quick reminder, there will be no episode next week, which is Holy Week.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:40 And usually these episodes, they've been coming out a little bit late because
00:55:40 --> 00:55:43 of Lent and some things that I've been doing.
00:55:45 --> 00:55:49 And so, that's why they've been coming out usually on Saturdays.
00:55:50 --> 00:55:54 But next week, There will be none at all. And then we will have our next new
00:55:54 --> 00:55:56 episode for the following week.
00:55:56 --> 00:56:01 So again, I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you so much for listening.
00:56:01 --> 00:56:05 Take care. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.