Joe Tognetti, a United Methodist pastor in McAllen, Texas, returns to the podcast and shares insights on the immigration experience at the U.S.-Mexico border. He dispels common misconceptions about the region and migrant caravans, emphasizing the role of local churches and humanitarian organizations in providing essential support to migrants.
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[0:10] Music. Hello and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in seeing where faith, politics, and culture intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Well, happy September. Uh, sorry that there were so few episodes in August. I was forcing myself really to take a break, uh, to not really have many episodes during, um, August. I did actually, uh, do interviews during it, but I didn't try to do very many episodes where I was actually publishing new episodes and trying to get those up.
[0:18] We'll be right back. Thank you.
[1:19] It was good to have a break, and I actually was able to take a short vacation. I hope that you were able to take a vacation as well. But now we are back into the thick of it with fall starting, and I hope that y'all had a good summer. So, on this episode, we're going to talk about immigration. That is in the news, especially things going along the southern border. It's always a big issue. It's especially a big issue during an election year. In this episode, though, we want to kind of take a step back. We don't want to try to deal with the hot button parts of this issue, but really look about how churches are actually ministering to people when they arrive at the border. So to talk about all of that and the ministry that happens at the the border, I'm talking to Joe Tognetti, a United Methodist minister. Joe is the pastor of St. Mark United Methodist Church in McAllen, Texas. He's a native of the Bay Area and has served a number of congregations in Texas, especially along the U.S.-Mexico border. And this is actually Joe's third time visiting church in Maine. It's always a joy to talk with him.
[2:36] So really, without further Without further ado, here's my interview with Joe Tognetti.
[2:41] Music.
[3:16] Well joe thanks for coming back this is actually i think number three a visit yeah two or three so uh welcome back thank you thank you i'm glad to be back i've i've been uh you know definitely looking at um i've had to reassess my podcast rotation but you're still on it and so uh definitely look look you know i was looking forward to to listen to the episodes give good things to reflect on, good voices. I mean, I've appreciated the growth of the podcast and hearing from different parts of the country and different parts of the church. So thank you for having me. Well, you're welcome. I think the first thing, because we wanted to talk, the whole point of this is to talk about immigration. It's really for, to set the scene. So kind of a little bit about your church and where it's located. We know it's McAllen, Texas. So tell us a little bit about what McAllen is all about? What is it like? And what is life like as a church that's kind of right on the border between the U.S. and Mexico? Yeah, so McAllen is about, 10 to 15 miles, but 30 minutes north of the border, north of Reynosa.
[4:41] And it's part of a region that it's the southernmost region in Texas. It's a four-county region. Three of the counties are on the border, and one of the counties is barely above, barely north of the border. And so this four-county region is called the Rio Grande Valley or El Valle. Every now and then, if someone from the valley goes national, you'll see someone say Puerto 956. If they grew up in the valley that's what they say um because 956 is the area code the phone area code um but yeah so we've got star county which actually just served a few years ago rio grande city it's a bit more rural uh then we've got and then going east got hidago county where we're at again mccallan is the largest city what's been fascinating is hidago county is a county of like 900 000 but no is larger than mccallan mccallan has 150 000 so you got a lot of cities surrounding mccallan that are like 30 000 50 000 100 000 then obviously 150 000 residents and it really is the.
[5:57] The social and economic center of the Rio Grande Valley. Now, I think my folks who are closer to Brownsville might be a little upset about that. Brownsville is much farther south and it's further east. And it is on the border. Like, you can walk to the border from Brownsville. And Brownsville is the largest city in the valley. And it's right across from Matamoros. Um, but it is, uh, but the County, you know, I would say about half of the County lives in Brownsville, that Cameron County. And so, um, and so, yeah, so, so McAllen and, and, and Edinburgh, you know, the, the region has really exploded economically. Um, and, and population wise, um, NAFTA and USMCA, the current year, you know, the, the trade deals. I know that up in your neck of the woods, those folks, NAFTA and other free trade is kind of considered anathema. But some of the politicians down here have said, look, if I was from Ohio or Michigan, I'd probably be voting against this stuff too, but I'm not, and it's helping us. So that's really kind of over the last 30 years, that's been a huge driving force.
[7:20] And it is still, you know, a lot of people, there's a reputation for it being so dangerous. And, and, I mean, there's certainly safety concerns, but it is actually, I mean, for residents on the U.S. Side, it is one of the safest urban counties in the country.
[7:45] Now, on the Mexico side, I would say that violence on the Mexico side is still mostly exaggerated, but it is worse than here because the cartels do operate. Norte Amalipas, that's the state in Mexico that is part of the Rio Grande Valley, that the borders the Rio Grande.
[8:08] And so there's kind of that exaggerated fear. Yeah, but, you know, and it's hard to tell as someone living here, like, whether is it safe even though we have access to law enforcement because everyone is so scared? Or is it safe because of the excess, the seeming excess? It's state troopers. You've got local law enforcement that get federal and state subsidies. You've got Border Patrol. I mean, you could just step on police officers as bad as a matter of violence, but you could practically trip over law enforcement. Um, you know, there, there, there are just so many here. Um, so it's hard to tell sometimes, but either way it's safe. And even when we've had the highest immigrant waves, um, which right now we're in a little bit of a downward cycle on that. But, uh, you know, I know that these things come in waves, uh, folks come in, you know, they often do come in caravans, which people get scared about. Out but to me i'm like you know if you don't if folks aren't part of a caravan.
[9:17] They probably still maybe need some cartel assistance to cross and to get through mexico but they would need way more they would be way more vulnerable to to cartel manipulation extortion violence all of that um because the paratows really run the the migration across the border. And so kind of caravans are a way that migrants and asylum seekers kind of get together and counteract that danger.
[9:52] And so that's part of the reason it happens in waves. But it's a logistical challenge. It's a humanitarian challenge. There are some safety concerns that happen, of course. And honestly, I don't know.
[10:09] I would say for the most part. I'm sure there are exceptions. I'd say for the most part, the safety concerns happen north of us and in more isolated areas, because of smuggling. And smugglers, either they're about to get caught, so they abandon migrants that are in vehicles or you know migrants sometimes they're in they're in uh some land you know some some agricultural land that's really desert and and in fact there have been some areas up there but also even parts of the rio grande valley where there are actual water stations and even emergency call that you know it brings border patrol but border patrol comes and like gives them water And make sure they don't die. Then, of course, there's that process. So I'd say a lot of the security dangers are typically north of us. That's been my experience. I've lived here eight and a half years now. And so that's been my experience. But in so many ways, though, it's such a joy. And I think there are a lot of stereotypes about being heavily impoverished, about – when I came down here, lots of people were saying, oh, the education is going to be awful.
[11:39] And and i've in each of the school districts i've lived in i've lived in three rio grande county valley counties um in each of the three school districts i've i've been perfectly willing to send my kids to the school now the first county we didn't actually they were too young, but in the last two rio grande city and now here in macau and like Like, we love the public school. They do an excellent job. And so, and then, you know, yeah, it's a higher poverty area, but there's also a lot of solidarity and resourcing and, you know, it's one of the few places in the US, some of it is, some of this because the poverty is so low, but it's one of the few places where people are still upwardly mobile. Because in a lot of the country where the vast majority of people are middle to upper middle class, I feel like they've hit their ceiling and maybe even have downgrade in the Rio Grande Valley. I mean, we have some of the same problems that a lot of America does in terms of costs and inflation and, and you know, everything else. But, um.
[12:56] It's more common than not that someone growing up in the Rio Grande, born in the Rio Grande Valley, growing up in the Rio Grande Valley, even if they stay here, which they don't always. Oftentimes they move to San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, or somewhere else in the country. But even if they stay here, they're going to see, they're going to find a place and a vocation that's a better standard of living than they had.
[13:22] Is that because the cost of living is cheaper in that part of the country? Cost of living is cheaper, and also the kinds of – cost of living is cheaper. Education is shockingly good given the level of poverty. And so, like, for example, in all these – however you measure things, I mean, there are multiple ways, and education experts know more than I do about problems and benefits of measuring by test scores or by grad rates or college readiness, like all of that. However you measure it, though, Valley schools are state average, even though poverty is well above average. And so that gives students skills and knowledge base that they have more opportunities. And there's more industry, again, and there just are more opportunities. For a long time, this was a region with migrant workers, and there's still some. Some, but that's not the economic base anymore. It's service industry, it's education and healthcare and manufacturing. A lot of it being.
[14:33] Across border relationships. Manufacturing and storage that's on both sides of the border. Healthcare on both sides where relatively well-off Mexicans will cross the border for health care. They'll even cross the border to pay more. And this is more true in the rural counties than here, but they'll cross the border that's allowed to pay money to go to our public schools. We can charge them because they're not U.S. citizens. They're not taxpayers, right? Right. And so you've got middle class to above Mexicans doing that. And then you've got Americans who will sometimes do business and work in Mexico related to manufacturing and other kind of industries that are, you know, the offices might be near the border, but the industry is really the heavy spots of Monterey and Mexico City. But also the health care is cheaper. So you got a lot of people, there are risks to that, obviously, but you got a lot of people going to Mexico for healthcare. So yeah, I mean, that's the, I would say that just there's a, there are a lot of challenges, obviously, whenever you've got.
[15:57] You know, high poverty area, whenever you've got a high, you know,
[16:04] border areas are risky, and we have a lot of law enforcement for that. But it's also much safer and much more hopeful and much more prosperous than I think the vast majority of folks realize. So a few questions kind of to talk about, especially when it comes with migration, is that we hear a lot in the past about, as you've talked about, caravans. And it might help to describe what do those actually look like? Because obviously what we hear about in the news sounds menacing, and I'm pretty sure it probably isn't. And then also what is the role of the is there a role of the cartels and all of that.
[16:49] Yeah and then who are the people from who are in these caravans are i'm guessing it's probably not as many mexicans as it is from other parts of either latin america but even probably other parts of the world yeah i and i don't know precisely i mean my so part of the the thing that's interesting about ministry in this area is that that if you wanted to live in the rio grande valley and not be involved on the front lines of immigration.
[17:30] It's relative unless you work for border patrol or you're serving directly in the non-profit it it's relatively easy to do um because you know uh the i think what it looks like from our end you know yeah most are central american you got even got some from central america and south america and you've even got some from africa and different parts of asia that's a minority obviously um but you've even got some from the caribbean interestingly enough because we no longer have wet foot dry foot policy related to Cuba so a lot of Cubans come through Mexico, um so.
[18:14] But it, you know, the, the process that, that a lot of times happens, you know, most people who cross, I mentioned earlier about trafficking and that does happen, right. And, and, and smuggling, but really most of the cartel work is getting people to a place where they are able to cross the border itself. And once they cross, let's just put their hands up. They're looking for a Border Patrol agent. I think that's what's different about now versus 20 years ago. It's a much higher percentage of migrants are looking for Border Patrol because they're going to claim asylum.
[19:00] Silent and so now we can discuss like and and i'm not an expert on asylum law we can discuss are people just doing that because they think it's an easy ticket in how much if it's legitimate whatever but what it does mean is that we're able to track it more and so i always kind of roll my eyes on people like recognize numbers i was like yeah we're getting more because one we have more border patrol and two more people are like willing to turn themselves in like they're not trying to hide um a higher percentage and so you know like the folks who i'm really worried about security wise are the folks who sneak through and aren't you know but the ones that border patrol can tracking and so what really happens is these folks come and when there are caravans it puts a strain on the resources, security resources, but also humanitarian resources. And this is where I get riled up when I see politicians attacking the humanitarian groups. In El Paso, it's Annunciation House.
[20:10] In McAllen, it's Catholic Charities Humanitarian Respite Center, right? And because it is – while I think it is crucial for us to be a church and to be communities of hospitality and welcome in our church, we're not heavily involved in that. Immigration, but we do have a via district border ministries for the United Methodist Church and our congregation here, St. Mark, often helps with closing supplies and we host mission teams that will work there. And I know that in a little bit, in like, I think next month, I'm going to be, a number of the pastors are going to volunteer at the Respite Center. So there are ways that it's essential to our faith to offer hospitality and welcome, but it also helps with security.
[21:07] Because instead of them just trying to find random places to sleep at night and you've got more vulnerability with, you know, you have risks of homelessness and all that, it's like, no, like, Border Patrol has a place to put them where they're safe, as well as you can be. I mean, they're not – this isn't a hotel, but they're getting usually minimum standard of care that is frankly more compassionate, but also – yeah, it's more compassionate and it's better resourced than anything that a temporary border patrol facility is typically designed for. And so I would say that for us – and then what happens there is that those end up being points of –.
[22:10] McAllen, places like Humanitarian Arrested Center, Annunciation House in El Paso, usually those charities, often in communication with Border Patrol and DHS and stuff, they'll make sure they get all their paperwork related to proceedings and everything else and asylum claims and all that. And then they usually have some either family or someone that they know in the United States.
[22:39] And so and that was the controversy about that was the thing that was confusing for some about when Governor Abbott was like busting people from El Paso. It isn't that busting people is bad. But it's when you bus people to random places that they don't have a connection to and that they didn't ask to go, right? And that they're not in communication, you know, there's not a sense of mutual communication with both the charity and the law enforcement about where they're going to be. It's just, you dump them in New York or you dump them in Martha's Vineyard. As opposed to, you know, some would want to go to New York, some want Chicago, some San Antonio, some, you know, different other places that when it's done safely and humanely, it helps everybody, including the people who live on this side of the border, right? You're less likely to come across folks who are physically desperate or homeless or endangered or might be a danger to others if they're all being tracked through and there's this kind of process. And so that's really, I think, the biggest...
[23:58] Thing that i've learned about you know these these uh charities and non-profits and also that that it's a um you know the city of mccallan as a government entity is supportive of humanitarian respite centers work and our mayor is a republican and yet even we're a light blue city politically but our mayor's a republican it's a non-partisan office um but he's supportive of humanitarian because he knows that it balances that having them work in coordination with law enforcement and border patrol, et cetera.
[24:38] Balance is the best balance of humanitarianism and security. And it also brings in, you know, you got people usually church groups, but not always who want to come down to volunteer and help out. And, and, um, And they, you know, they eat in restaurants, they buy gear, they, you know, and they go back to their place and say, oh, this Macallan, like, it's an actual, like, city with resources and with hope. And, you know, we get a better reputation that way. And so there are lots of – yeah, I would say that in terms of my interactions and especially being in McAllen proper where our county is the largest and we get the most migrants throughout the Rio Grande Valley, that's been my experience of immigration. And both the processes and the ways that the church is involved is typically through those kind of, you know, handful of established.
[25:56] Relatively well-funded charities who also coordinate with Border Patrol and such. Um, you know, we do, last thing I'll say on that front is that we, we do have what they call colonias and those are places where, um, there's a long history of them and they're underdeveloped neighborhoods and communities. Communities and typically they there have been improvements since the 80s because you're yeah there's lots of things right um but they're still very underdeveloped that is where you'll get often dirt roads or not very strong roads you'll get water infrastructure and sewage that's, subpar you might get internet out there sometimes you might not you know um.
[26:50] And so, but a lot of church ministries, as well as other nonprofits, the work that they do is in those areas that are typically outside of city limits. They're typically in more rural areas of the county. And those are places that sometimes immigrants either – they went through the process like I described and they decided to stay or they smuggled in. And the most common way that people get across the border who are currently undocumented is they actually cross legally and just overstay their visa.
[27:39] And so you've got those families as well. And I would say, I mean, you've got undocumented immigrants throughout Texas, really,
[27:50] and even a sizable number throughout the Rio Grande Valley. But especially the colonists there's a very high percentage and that's where a lot of, Church ministry, both mercy ministries and evangelistic ministries are really engaged. That's kind of the most we typically engage person-to-person with immigrant communities. So one of the things that I'm kind of curious is kind of, and you've kind of answered, but we'll love to hear a little bit more is what is kind of drives churches in their humanitarian roles to help immigrants, but also, and maybe you can kind of, because I've heard about this is that there are efforts by the governor to kind of interfere with those.
[28:51] Those actions. So, could you kind of explain a little bit about both of those things? So I'll address the second one first, and that so many of the – most of the centers that I described that were immigrant families and individuals, they've been through Border Patrol. And they've either been caught or wanted to get caught. And then Border Patrol drops them off at these sites. Humanitarian Respite Center, which is Catholic-run. Annunciation House, which is Catholic-run. Good Neighbor Settlement House in Brownsville, which is United Methodist-run. And some of these actually used to be predominantly domestic homeless oriented, and they've shifted because the need – because of the relatively low cost of living, but also because –.
[29:56] There are other places where travelers who are homeless prefer. They prefer Port Aransas or Galveston or some of the other beach communities, or they prefer the bigger cities like San Antonio, Dallas, Austin, Houston. So while homelessness does exist here, and we have a Salvation Army nearby, here in McAllen, some of these places that used to deal with homelessness and were faith-based, either non-denominational or, like I said, in Brownsville, there's.
[30:35] A United Methodist one in McAllen and in El Paso. And in Laredo, I'm remiss in mentioning Laredo has the United Methodist one, too, Holy Institute. So that's United Methodist. Eagle Pass, I think, I'm trying to think if there's an actual, there's an ecumenical, there are ecumenical organizations that are doing similar work, but I don't know if they have a physical structure. But so much of it is faith-based in terms of initial hospitality, also logistics, helping them both process and review the paperwork. That they got from a DHS from border patrol and logistics in terms of, you know, where can they go with permission? Where can they travel to, to be with family or a sponsor or something? And so that's a lot of the faith-based work that happens directly with immigration. And.
[31:40] The second issue, and sorry, I'm a little bit long-winded here, but the governor's attacks on these faith-based groups, so far he's done two. And certainly the attorney general, although it was at the explicit direction and approval of the governor, but it's the attorney general who has attempted to take legal action against both the Annunciation House in El Paso and Humanitarian Respite Center here in McAllen. and both have gotten shot down. Both, I mean, judges have been like, that's ridiculous, stop it. But it's, I mean, I, and I don't like to be partisan when I'm speaking about ministry and church. And, you know, we've got a politically diverse congregation here that spread out. We're historically right, just a little bit back, and we're a historically right church that has slowly become more reflective of the community, but we're still probably 40-ish percent Hispanic in a community that's 85 to 90 percent Hispanic. But anyway, we're politically mixed. And so I don't want to be too partisan, but I can't think of a rational reason.
[33:07] For what the Attorney General is doing except scoring political points. I just can't because – and especially as I've learned more about the ways in which these organizations work side-by-side with Department of Homeland Security and Border Patrol. And folks would say, well, they're all crossing, blah, blah. I mean, there's –, The immigration process is so catastrophically broken and weird that, yeah, there are problems, but the charities are not in.
[33:51] But people, I think, people see, oh, where are they going? They're going to these charities. Oh, well, the charities are the problem. It's like charities are doing everything they can legally and operating within. They're both compassionate and legal and this leads to the other point as the case in the Annunciation House pointed out, trying to ban or criminalize, hospitality and charity is a violation of religious freedom especially for, more justice-oriented Catholics and a lot of the mainline Protestant community and even some evangelicals. I mean, not all, but some evangelicals. And in fact, I would say there's probably the most involved local congregation.
[34:50] That's Protestant that's smaller. You've got some really large congregations that get involved. But the most involved small to mid-sized congregation It was a Nazarene church that's evangelical. So you got even some evangelicals who feel compelled, you know, they read the gospel narratives around what Jesus said about the least of these, about what, you know, in the gospel of Luke, related to both the blessings that come from, the spiritual blessings that come from offering hospitality.
[35:32] And the spiritual peril you run in when you refuse. They also got Old Testament in Exodus and Leviticus, which usually, when you're talking Leviticus, you're talking like the more piety-driven and sexuality-driven, and that's a whole other thing. But I think I talked about that a little bit on one of the other podcast episodes. But, you know, there you have Israel, God's people.
[36:04] And even as Israel is having to fight wars against other nations in that land, there's also simultaneously a command that they leave space for the foreigner and sojourner. The part of what it means to be God's people is to not be closed off. And so I would say that that is what compels churches to get involved. I will say that what's been interesting is that.
[36:34] In my experience, especially for Protestant Christians, churches that are outside of the Rio Grande Valley are probably as involved, if not more involved, in offering such ministries than churches that are in the Rio Grande Valley. That's been my experience. It seems to me that, you know, one of the things that if you, let's say, shut down some of these ministries is that, well, the people are still going to come. Yes. And what's going to happen is that they're going to ask, either rely more on the local governments, which will strain them, or you put people out in the streets. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a, okay, so it's not like they're going to disappear. Yeah. You know, not be that. And that, I mean, I think one of the myths is that people come because of that charity work. It's like, no, that charity work developed because the people were showing up. And really, I would say that I think the last 10 to 15 years, you know, some people are like, oh, this happened because of, you know, certain agendas or whatever. It happened because a higher percentage of the people.
[38:01] You know, and again, I mean, politicians talk about this process. I don't know all the ins and outs of the asylum process. I don't know what needs to be changed, if anything, about it. I mean, I read a couple of things, but other people are way smarter than me. But in the last 10 to 15 years, more people have sought asylum. And that means that they are willing and actually excited and desire to have law enforcement and formal nonprofits, formal official structures, help them in this process.
[38:40] Than previously where most folks, if they weren't crossing, if they weren't doing what I described, which was get a travel visa and then overstay, they were smuggling. They were just trying to get in and move. And so, yeah, the infrastructure developed, the charitable infrastructure developed precisely because people were coming. And you're right that it got lifted up and you see, again, the city of McAllen in a bipartisan way, the folks who are on the ground, local government who have to deal with it, they support this charitable work because they know that folks are going to come anyway. And so they want that.
[39:36] It's a need in our broader community. And so, yeah, those charities are fitting that need.
[39:48] So one of the things that I find fascinating is how you've described the Border Patrol. Because people, I think, have this image of the Border Patrol, and usually it's not a very positive image. But here we see something, from what I'm gathering, is far more cooperative with everyone, working with charities, doing, you know, Obviously, they are law enforcement, but they have, in some ways, a humanitarian role as well to play.
[40:23] Yeah, and I don't want to either overstate or to invalidate feelings that folks have around Border Patrol and ICE. Because I think that when there are not these charitable resources, or when the charitable resources are overwhelmed, or when the government chooses, and this has periodically happened, that they're not going to work through the charitable organizations. They're just going to try to do it themselves. I think you ran into some major problems that I think are some of the sources of discontent. I mean, I think it's also true.
[41:13] That by and large, Border Patrol is going to take a more law and order, ideologically conservative approach to these – when it comes to immigration. And so I don't want to be insensitive to that. And I also know that I've had current and former Border Patrol officials either visiting or being a member of the churches that I serve, especially here in McAllen. And they've been nothing but a blessing. And their political views range across the spectrum just like anything else.
[42:08] And probably the lean conservative, but they range. Um, and they are some of the folks who are most, whenever, you know, our big thing in our local church, we're relatively small. We got like our average over the years, usually 65 to 70 in the summer. It's lower because we have some winter Texans, which are folks who travel from the north, like Minnesota, uh, you know, folks coming down to warmer weather, um, during the fall and winter. That so during the summer and some of the spring we'll have like 55-65 usually in worship and so it's a small congregation but one of the things we do is we'll set up these um, packs and boxes and.
[43:03] Items that can easily be distributed just you know we coordinate with the different current UMC ministries that help with that as well. And oftentimes, it's the Border Patrol families that are most helpful.
[43:20] And so I don't want to dismiss people's understandable experience. I do also want to clarify that Border Patrol is different than ICE. They're both Department of Homeland Security, but they're different. And so, yeah, I think ICE is the group that typically when you're dealing with deportations, ICE is the entity that does that, whereas Border Patrol does not. Lot and so um so yeah i certainly don't want to downplay um and i know a few years back there was a scandal about the facebook group or you know border patrol agents were basically living up to every negative stereotype we have of them um and you know it's kind of like a way to do yourself favors guys um but yeah so i don't want to dismiss that but my experience of border patrol agents and the experiences of the charities that day in and day out provide ministry and hospitality and services to migrant and asylum-seeking families. Their experiences of Border Patrol have typically been more constructive than not.
[44:48] Do a lot of the people who end up for asylum them end up staying in the Rio Grande or do they usually move on to other parts of the country? Not that much end up staying. I know that, again... I am less familiar, I know that the colonias have a much higher percentage of immigrant, both documented and undocumented, communities. Typically, those are Mexican.
[45:28] Not always, but typically. uh and and so i my yeah usually the folks who are here are traveling through um but yeah there are some who end up staying in different you know i know that uh you know we've been a couple of you know most of our well i'd say about half of our united methodist churches here are historically white historically english-speaking but we do have some that are historically spanish-speaking Most of those churches have shifted to be English-speaking. As the Rio Grande Valley, the bulk of the population has become more English-speaking, a little bit more middle class, etc., etc. But we do have some congregations that have actually switched back to being primarily Spanish language because those happen to be the families. And again, most of them, if they're in colonias or near colonias, are Mexican. But I think you do have some from further south in Latin America. Hmm.
[46:36] So if there was one thing that you, you know, obviously people who are going
[46:40] to be listening to this live in other parts of the country. And if there is one thing that you'd want them to understand about life and ministry on the border, about kind of the issue, at least of immigration, how you see it, what would that be? I'd say that.
[47:06] Life is is especially on this side of the border in the united states in the gurgundi valley it is much more normal and safe and even hope-filled, And whether you're primarily doing immigration ministry or whether, you know, like my congregation, we do some assistance in that regard. But most of our ministry is actually family ministry. We've got a preschool that's shifting to be a little bit more of a nursery because free preschool is being available, is being offered throughout the school districts in the area. We've got preschool. We've got sports ministries that are really popular. We've got Vacation Bible School. We have more kids coming to Vacation Bible School than come to worship during the summer. We host a literacy program.
[48:06] There are so much blessed opportunities for ministry, both for longer-term residents who make up the vast majority of Valley residents. Um, you know, most, you know, uh, I mean, obviously any community to go to, uh, unless you're indigenous, you're going to have, uh, some immigrants somewhere back in the time, obviously in a place where you're going to Valley, South Texas, even San Antonio, a higher percentage of recent immigrant families. But these are folks who are here and they value community, familia, family. They're fairly patriotic, regardless of where they are politically in terms of how they vote, they're often very patriotic. And there's just a lot of hope and connection down here. And I would say.
[49:11] I think this applies to beyond just the Rio Grande Valley and border ministry. It applies to anywhere that's not suburban or rich urban, which is I would encourage pastors, don't be afraid to serve communities that aren't the stereotype of prosperity. Prosperity, because, you know, there's so much life and hope in so many of these communities. And, and, and you've got people, you know, you've got even within, you know, rural communities like Western Stark County and Willis and County that were in Rurigani Valley, but much smaller, you've got, and you've even got people that are professional people at various different income levels. Obviously, not as strong of a wealth base as a bigger city, but still the folks who invest in here, businesses happen here.
[50:15] And there's plenty of ministry on the margins, both with immigrant communities, but also one of our ministry partners is a Lippon Apache tribe, An indigenous tribe that is based in more North McAllen, Alton. Someone can Google it and look on a map where that is. We have to have about a 10 to 15 year relationship with them. And there's so much blessed work and hope-filled work that's down here, and it is both safer and there's more life and hope than I think people recognize. The biggest thing I would also say is, the last thing I'll say is, don't be scared by the language barrier. It can be a barrier. But one, the vast majority of folks here speak English. Now, most people also, to some degree, speak Spanish. And for many, Spanish is the language of their heart and their home. That's why even our congregation, we're predominantly English-speaking people.
[51:31] We've started with some level of success and some level of struggle because it's a learning curve for everybody. But we've started to incorporate bilingual songs where some of the verses are in Spanish and some of the verse are in English. Sometimes they're even more contemporary praise songs that are both. And so but I would also say that I was terrible at language in school. It was my worst grade in high school. I intentionally avoided it in college I somehow squeaked by got the bare minimum grade in high school that allowed me to avoid it in college and but I moved down here and with the help of taking two community college courses, two semesters of a community college course basic Spanish and Duolingo, and then in my prior congregation more so than this one having to use it more I would say, folks, don't be afraid of the language barrier.
[52:34] That is something that can come intuitively for most people. Most people can learn enough of a second language, especially Spanish. This isn't a non-Latin language, especially Spanish, that you can learn enough if you need to, to get by and make connections and at a bare minimum, let other people know that you are invested in their community and their culture. I think that's the biggest thing. There are very few people who don't speak English, but if you don't, if you're not making any effort to speak Spanish, there's, there's a cultural barrier there, um, that, that folks appreciate it when you make the effort to, uh, to speak Spanish. Kind of like an issue of hospitality. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
[53:34] Well, Joe, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this. I mean, it's been helpful. You know, this is an issue that we hear a lot about in the news. And I think it's important to know. For me personally, I've always wondered, well, what is life like on the border? So thank you for this kind of illuminating. Yeah. And thank you. And can I put in a plug for a couple of good ministries that I know of? Sure. Yeah. So obviously, like I mentioned, my church is St. Mark UMC McAllen.
[54:09] But I would say, obviously, Humanitarian Respite Center, Catholic Charities RGV, Good Neighbor Settlement House, El Valle District, Border Ministries, which isn't just immigration. They also do connect with the missionary Manos Juntas in Mexico to help folks in Mexico be not just provide services, but to be self-empowered and to be resourceful and be entrepreneurs. And really, so, and then another plug is, you know, I'm part of an emerging faith leaders group. And one of the churches that I mentioned before that evangelical church, Rio Church, or Rio Valley Church of the Nazarene, here in McAllen. And, you know, if they're listeners of yours that are a bit more evangelically inclined, they do some great ministry work, immigration ministry work. And they're from a tradition that's Wesleyan, which has a historic connection to United Methodism, but they split off and they're much more evangelical. And so those are just some options if folks want to know how to be engaged in this community and in ministries in this community on both sides of the border. I'd say that those are some good choices.
[55:37] Well, thank you again, Joe, for coming back, and I hope to have you again sometime soon. Yeah, thank you, Dennis. Appreciate it. All right.
[55:46] Music.
[56:18] So what did you think about the conversation? Have you had any experiences doing ministry along the border? Maybe you were with a church that visited. What were your experiences? If you'd like to share that, please feel free to drop me a line. You can send me an email to churchandmain, all one word, at substat.com. Joe also gave me several links to border ministries. If you want to learn more about how these churches are helping those who arrive at the border, I've put those links in the show notes. So please take a look at them and to learn more. If you want to learn more about this podcast, listen to past episodes, or even donate, you can check us out at churchinmaine.org. I also have a site on Substack. It used to be where I put my episodes. And I do actually post some episodes there. but I also put related articles.
[57:20] So consider subscribing to that site if you want to read some related articles and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app. And I always say to leave a review. And I think if you do have a time to leave a review, you can leave a detailed message, but you can also just rate it and that can help too. Doing that actually helps others find the podcast. and I really would like to have others find this podcast if possible. Also, just to let you know, if you want to donate via Venmo, you can do that and give whatever amount you would like by going to at churchandmainpod. That is churchandmain on Venmo. So that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. As I always like to say, thank you so much for listening. It does really matter. Take care, everyone. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
[58:22] Music.
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