In this episode, Dennis chats with Julian DeShazier about how the great man theory has poisoned the church and a better way for pastors and congregations to do ministry that is more in line with what our faith teaches. Julian is the Senior Minister at University Christian Church in Chicago, writes for the Christian Century and is an Emmy-winning hip hop artist who performs under the name J Kwest.
Suggested Reading and Listening:
The great man theory is poison for the church by Julian DeShazier
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[0:06] Music.
[0:40] Hello, and welcome to Church at Maine, a podcast for people interested in seeing where faith, politics, and culture intersect. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. So how many of you have heard of the term great man theory? This is a theory that basically says that for kind of the major changes that take place in the history of the world usually happens by great men or heroes. Now, this contrasts from another approach to looking at history and where change can come from below, really from movements that are making that change instead of individual people. Now, can something like the Great Man Theory happen in the life of the church? Well, according to Julian de Chazier, yes. Yes, it can. You know, there's been a lot of talk recently about clergy burnout, and one reason for that might be that pastors tend to think that the ministry in their congregation either lives or dies because of them. And that's a lot to put on a pastor, and the end result is going to be burnout.
[2:02] So in this episode, I actually chat with Julian Desagier on an article that he wrote actually for a Christian century about how the great man theory has really actually poisoned the church and showing a better way for pastors and congregations to do ministry that is more in line with what our faith teaches. Julian is the senior minister of University Christian Church in Chicago, which is a United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ congregation. He writes for the Christian Century, and he is also an Emmy-winning hip-hop
[2:38] artist who performs under the name JQuest. So, join me as I talk today with Julian Desagé.
[2:47] Music.
[3:05] Well, Julian, thank you for taking the time to chat with me this afternoon.
[3:09] Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Good to be here. All right. Well, I wanted to kind of start things off by talking a little bit about telling us people a little bit about yourself and about University Christian. I know a little bit about it in its relation with the University of Chicago, but kind of for the rest of the audience to kind of hear a little bit about who you are and who your congregation that you serve. Sure, sure. I'm a kid from the South Side of Chicago. That's the easiest way to put it. And probably most relevant to our conversation is a child of hip hop, somebody who really came out of the understanding of hip hop culture and learned. And I like to tell people, it's not anecdotal, it's the truth. I knew Snoop's doggy style album word by word before I knew any of the Bible. Like, that's just what my life was. That's just what I had around me, you know. And so I was appreciative of church and how it would help people out. But I wasn't really into it like that, you know. And so my entryway into the church came through a lot of different ways. You know, I was rapping and always, you know, very, very appreciative of my own faith and wanted to share that with other people, but didn't see the institutional church as the path in which I would do that.
[4:36] I think, you know, I paused and doing music and then started really thinking a lot about what the rest of my life would look like. Was I going to be like an indie artist kind of searching for that hit or searching for that one moment where I could make it, quote unquote, or, you know, what else was there inside of me? What questions were swirling around inside of me? And that's where I began to think a lot more about the church and the institution and how I could pour into it. And I'd been committed. It was in my body because I was a black man from Chicago, you know, it was all in my family and all the way around me. And so thinking about instead of critiquing it, how could I offer my leadership to it? How could I find my place in it where I could still be my authentic self? And so that's how I started seminary. And really the rest of the story after that is I went to seminary, I went to the University of Chicago Divinity School and University Church is right across the street from where I went to school. And so. You know, I'm, I, you get out of seminary and you're like, all right, I need a job. You know, I need to figure something out here. Like what's going on. Um, and then I was thinking I was going to be doing nonprofit work, all this other kind of work while still doing music. And the church was looking for a pastor. And I said, you know, throw my, throw my name in the hat, see what happens. And the see what happens is 14 years later, I've been serving as pastor. That's what happens.
[6:02] Sometimes you have to be careful to see what happens. Listen, don't come around God open. Don't be open-minded, because you're going to get shown a part of yourself that you didn't think was really possible. And I think that happened for me. And the moment I got in there and started doing it, I realized that it was really good for me and, and really an opportunity for me to offer some of my other skills and enjoys really, um, in terms of leadership and institution building and things like that, that I really was interested in at this place was also like, all right, let's do it. And they still like, let me be wild and funky too. So, you know, and do my rap stuff. So that's, that's cool too. I was going to ask about that. How to, how have you been able to kind of, Because I've seen your website and everything. How have you been able to bring on hip hop culture into the church? I think it's more for me about...
[7:04] Just being authentic to who i am like a lot of people ask this they're like all right so is it a hip-hop church it must be a hip-hop church now right and it's like i'm gonna come there and see you because i know it's gonna be wrapped all the time and a dj on the communion table now we have had a dj on the communion table and i rap as often as i want to but it's not a part of the ethos of the place it's not like we're a hip-hop congregation uh you're gonna come and get a concert. We're hip hop in the sense of the ethos, you know, we're hip hop in the, in the way that we approach things. Um, and, and that's something that I really appreciate is my ability to show up in that space as my authentic self. That's a really, a real gift that a lot of people don't have. And I'm realizing that more and more as I'm doing this work, that congregations really like they, they want a pastor, but they also want that pastor and that pastoral leadership to show up in the way they want them to show up. They want, they want you to be their version of you, you know, and, and as opposed to you getting to be your version of yourself, as you are changing, as you're evolving, as you're vulnerable, as you're making mistakes, as you're growing in the world, you know, that this was a place that was saying, okay, you can do that. Like we got room for you, Julian. And so that was really encouraging for me to know that if I had a new song, or if I wanted to start a sermon with a verse, you know, like I could do that.
[8:27] But that if I didn't, people wouldn't be disappointed and say, oh, I thought you were the hip hop pastor, you know, you to preach a rapper or something like, yeah, I mean, I rap, I preach, I do all these things, but you know, I don't do them all together always at the same time. You know, like we, we take, we, we call up the stuff that's alive in us at a particular kind of moment. So So, yeah.
[8:52] So, kind of bringing that up about bringing your authentic self and how sometimes churches don't do that, I did want to kind of talk about the article that you wrote back in July for Christian Century about kind of the great man theory. And this kind of relates to what you've just been talking about. And I think one of the ways that you start off that essay is by talking about clergy burnout and in, I guess, in talking with people, especially from millennial and Gen Z who are pastors, about how much this issue of clergy burnout is a problem. And I would say probably it's a problem regardless of generations. But it's also how this great man theory kind of fits in. So how do you relate that to clergy burnout?
[9:50] Well, I think that a lot of the burnout that I've experienced myself and that I've seen my peers experience in ministry is not about like, hey, I'm doing too much work. Nobody's helping me. I've written about that before, too. And that's an issue, too. Right. But I think the bigger issue is the fact that I'm doing so much because I'm bringing an assumption into that work. And the assumption is it's for me to do.
[10:19] I got to be, I got to, I got to get this thing done. I got to be great here. You know, I got to leave a legacy. I got to leave something for folks. This is how I'm going to be known if I'm able to do this, uh, and get this thing done. And so we get seduced into that understanding that if we can do something great, if we can be great, we can save this place. You know the the reason it's not doing well is because it just hasn't had good enough leaders well here i am you know and i think i got uh seduced into that i'm not i mean i don't know if we have enough time to dig all the way into that but i think getting into my first job for the first time i wanted to impress i wanted those people to feel like they had made a good decision I want, you know, this congregation is historic, but it's been in a bit of a downward turn as institutions do, have been in that ebb and flow, in a bit of a valley in that moment and looking to see how they can revive themselves. And we're taking a risk. First black pastor in the church's history, you know, youngest pastor in the church's history. For me, I was like, all right, I got to get it done for them. You know, I got to make them look smart. And I got to do it for the ancestors. I got to get this thing done. I got to do well at this.
[11:40] And so I really did, you know, bring that into the work as opposed to coming in and immediately beginning to ask about the values of the community and how we can continue to collaborate or perhaps collaborate better. You know, other things that I think after 14 years now, I just understand a lot better. Like if you are doing it all by yourself, you shouldn't be doing it. You know, and that the greatness of this place is not going to be understood by the greatness of its pastor and their accomplishments, but it's going to be understood by our ability to make our values real with ourselves, amongst ourselves and in the world around us, you know, in the community around us, that that is where our greatness comes from. Our greatness comes from our ability to serve. And so, like, in some ways, Dennis, it's like just hearing the gospel in a different kind of way. It's like, wow. Oh, the first is last. The last. Oh.
[12:42] That's what that means. Because for so many of us, and I talk about that in the article, for so many of us, we come out of an understanding of our history is told through the histories of great people. You know, we talk about America as the founding fathers, you know, as these these exceptional humans who were able to get this done. We love watching sports. And these are all exceptional folks, like not even the one percent. These are like the point zero zero five percent of the greatest athletes in the world and then aspire to be them. You know, and so a lot of how we think about life and history is the way that, you know, Thomas Carlyle talked about it. He was the one who kind of made up this understanding of like, the history of the world is nothing but the stories of great men, you know, and the biographies of great men, I think the quote goes. And so it's like, well, then coming up as a kid, who's going to think that they should be anything but great? You know, it's like, oh, well, if I'm going to be anything, I got to go be great. I got to figure that out. And that that happens in us from six, seven years old. Right. Our parents are telling us, like, you can be great. You can be anything. You can be you're amazing. You're you know, like you're exceptional. And we want our kids to be exceptional. And then the ones who are not, because most are not, you know.
[14:08] Most can are not going to make the NBA. Most rappers are not going to have any kind of hit record. It's like, you know, you're good. You're talented at it, but not exceptional in the way that we think of. And that if it's not exceptional, then it's worthless is the kind of philosophy that we have inside of our world generally. And I've just been feeling that period. And maybe as a father, I'm feeling that as well as my daughters get into a different kind of developmental age and move into adolescence and, you know, to help them understand that as they make more mistakes and are figuring out their identities, that they get a chance to do that for themselves. And I was just looking at the world around them and around me and just kind of saying like, wow, this great man stuff is everywhere. Like, oh my goodness, this is all, this is the only way we think about things. Well, of course we're gonna burn out. We're out here trying to be exceptional as opposed to just trying to do our job well, as opposed to us trying to be part of the body, as opposed to us trying to collaborate with others, as opposed to understanding that legacies are shared.
[15:17] Stories and not the stories of our biographies, you know? And so I think that's, that's one of the ways in which I got into that and just started thinking, even in my own ministry, like, let me, let me start working on a different way of being pastor here in this year 14, year 13. I think this started a couple of years ago for me. Let's make it a little bit less around.
[15:42] Pastor Julian and the University Churchettes, you know, because that's what it kind of is. It's like when you talk about church, it's kind of like who's the pastor and the congregation is the background singing group, you know, like, like, let me stop making them the U Churchettes. I wasn't doing this on purpose or waking up thinking I was better than them. Again, this is just so ingrained in the way that we practice in the world. And so I had to wake up to that and say, all right, well, what would it mean for us to all be sharing harmonies together to use the singing group image? You know, what if we were boys to men? You know, what if we were barbershop quartet? Like, OK, I'm going to do this over here, but you're going to do that and you're going to do that and you're going to do that. You know, like, let's start thinking about it in a different kind of way, as opposed to lifting up the history of the church as here are the list of our previous pastors.
[16:38] But no like here's let's talk about the work we're doing and oh yeah no julian was here while that was happening and this person was here but what this is really about is thinking about the work that we've been doing and how we've understood ourselves across the years which, then when a pastor leaves uh the church doesn't need to go into decline it's like oh no we're still doing this work, you know, and even we, we might want to think about selecting our next leader, not necessarily as somebody who's got a certain match from a charisma perspective, but from somebody who has the skills and talents to help us do this work that we feel called to do better, even if they're not as good a preacher, even if they're not as good as some of the other things that we think the rock star preachers and pastors should have in their toolbox, you know, And so all of that kind of stuff, I just said a lot right there. So, you know, but that's kind of what all of that article ended up being about.
[17:42] Yeah, I think one of the things that is interesting, at least from what I've noticed in some churches, is how you'll have that one pastor who's like this great pastor and probably has been there for years, probably too long. And any pastor that comes after that.
[18:05] Their ministry is just kind of shot because they can't live up to that pastor. And then that can help lead towards the church decline because everyone's just looking that, well, we have to have this great man. And it's the same thing then with the pastor. Pastor feels like they have to be this great person. And no one's ever going to be the same pastor. I mean, pastors are not, we don't come off of the assembly line just all the same everything is different and that's a lot of pressure to put on people and so it's no surprise that there would be burnout and i think.
[18:46] And this is another point that i think i make in the article i haven't read it in a while but um but that i'm thinking about always as it relates to this is like we do that in our religion too mm-hmm we lift up jesus we lift up moses paul we name books in the bible after people you know and not after a people right so so there's no book called the movement well i guess there is exodus but you know like you got isaiah and not oh the exile you know like Like, oh, here's the story of the exile. It's like, no, Isaiah, Jeremiah, you know. So, like, we tell the story of our religion as these kind of hagiographies as well in ways that don't always help us do this. And in ways that I think when we think about it from this perspective, really...
[19:43] Contextualize Jesus in a really different kind of way because he rejects that. Like every time they're trying to put that on him, like you're the one, you're the guy, it's you. We're just going to follow you and everything's going to be fine. He's like, well, actually, you know, I came to build communities. You know, I came to empower you to do this because I'm actually about to be gone, you know, and then you're going to have to do this and not you individual, you all, You plural. You know, you all are going to have to figure out how to be a community because that's actually where the faith is lived out in its strongest element. Not with one of you being great, but each of you all, each of us talking to us, being willing to serve, to take leadership, to offer our gifts, to take risks, to not be afraid of death. All of that stuff feels like it's shown in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. And so we got to be careful about how we tell our own story of our faith and in ways that don't play into this Thomas Carlyle great man theory.
[20:47] And obviously, for anybody listening, it's not great man or great woman, you know, like I'm talking about the name of the theory. Obviously, this also applies to women, to non-binary people, to transgender people, you know, like all humans fall into this. You know, of this way of thinking, like, I must be exceptional. And that's a lot to put on somebody to go into work. Like, that's a lot. That's a lot.
[21:18] Of course we burn out. You know, you say something else on the article that, you know, we feel that we have to have be special or we don't have a place at all. Yeah. And I would love to hear a little bit more what what that means to you and what is an alternative way of looking at that?
[21:42] Well what it means is is that we get into this like hard binary of either i'm knocking it out or i'm failing and, Either, either I'm making my dreams happen or I'm a failure. Either this is going really well, or I should look for somewhere else to be, you know, like, and maybe it's just me living longer and, and folks listen and
[22:14] just understand this probably better than me. Like there's so much more nuance in it. There's so much more nuance. Um, nobody answers a relationship romantically.
[22:27] Or friendship for that matter, saying like, oh, if it's not, if I'm not head over heels in love, maybe it's not working out. You know, we don't do that. We understand that, you know, some of this stuff we're really good at, some of the stuff we're going to have to figure out. And then you make the decision whether you want to put that effort in. And I think we don't do that as well when it comes to us thinking about our work inside of church. We're not as nuanced. It's like, if they don't love me, they're not head over heels for me, then, uh-oh, I must be messing up. Let me figure out a way to get them all on board. And it's like, no, they don't have to like you. They don't have to love you like that. Do your work. Do the work. Your call comes from God first, you know, and then it's affirmed by these people. And if they continue to affirm your call and your work, then there's going to be days where they, okay, they didn't get in line and tell you that that was the greatest sermon they ever heard. That doesn't mean it was bad, you know? And so it's this all or nothing kind of idea that can really be detrimental to mental health, period, and can make us do a lot of wrong inside of our thinking about our vocations, and particularly inside of the church, because we're not being the great one that everybody needs.
[23:53] Um, and so the alternative, uh, is, is really, I think we've been talking about it throughout a little bit, but it's just a way of thinking about being a part of a legacy. I feel much healthier in my pastor right now when I don't think of myself as needing to be the person who saved the church or the person who this will be my legacy. But it's saying, no, I had for some amount of years, I don't know how long it is yet. I had an opportunity to help lead this place into their sense of faithfulness. And here's what came out of that as a result.
[24:29] And now somebody else is going to go do it. You know, this feels a lot healthier. This feels a lot more to me like the gospel of Jesus saying, y'all, please don't trip when I leave, OK, because you're going to keep this going and you're going to do even better than me. You know, and they were like, what? No, that's impossible. We can't do it. And he's like, OK, relax. You can't. You know, and that's that's how I'm starting to approach it. And I think that's the alternative for us. Like, you know, we're part of a legacy of people who put our hands on the plow for decades and generations and have said, you know what? I want to try to serve the church and love people and love God and serve others and help the community around us. And I want to do that for as long as it's healthy for me to do it. And as long as I can do it and it feels like I'm being helpful, I'm going to do it. And then I'm going to help somebody else do it after me. You know, I'm not I'm not going to say I'm not going to try to be the Beatles. You know, I'm not going to be the last act here. Like, no, I'm I'm still a part of the opening acts of everybody who's going to come after me. The headliner is not me. I'm not the reason for the season here. You know, and so I think that's a part of the alternative that I think can make us a little bit healthier going into this. The question, I think, is, like, can congregations...
[25:50] Abide in that? Can they buy into that? And therefore, again, and we talked about this earlier, and think about their calling of pastors in a different kind of way, as opposed to hiring the person who's here to fix us. But to say something very, very different that I don't hear congregations say a lot. I hear people who go to congregations, including university church. They'll talk about the church. Okay. Why are you here? Well, and within 30 seconds, they're going to name the pastor like, Oh, well, this is kind of the reason I'm here. You know, and, uh.
[26:35] I'm worried about that. I'm worried about that. I would just say that for the health of congregations and the health of those pastors, that is way too much to put on one person. Like you're the reason I'm here. Wow. That's sometimes I want to say back, like, that's, that's a terrible reason to be here. And Dennis, let me be clear. Let's, let's just keep it a hundred here. And there are some Sundays where hearing that just melts my heart and makes me feel good. Of course. I just needed, I just needed to feel good. I just worked so hard. I just, you know, I just exhausted myself at such a level. It just turned over a problem in my head. And I just used all the facility of my gifts, everything, every tool in my toolbox. And I'm not sure if it worked or not. And to hear that affirmation made me feel good. And that's on me. That's on me. Cause that, that's not the affirmation I should be looking for either, but that's the part of our humanity. And I think that's how we got to this place.
[27:39] So that kind of leads me to a question about, you know, that needing sometimes affirmation, and I think that's something I admit to as well. And it's how do we as pastors learn to not draw on that? Even though we may hear that, that's something nice to hear, but really to know that that affirmation really comes from God. It's not from, you know, whether we had a really great sermon or not, because some days we don't have great sermons. Yeah, how can you? Yeah. And still, there is that affirmation from God, and it seems that matters. But it's like, how do we learn that? Because I feel like we don't learn that as well, or we're too tempted to... Into this other model. Well, yeah, I think that, I think the answer is we need better boundaries. You know, we need to not expect these people to be our healing, you know, now we can live life with them and be in community with them and learn how to share our vulnerabilities. So they can see us up there and see, Hey, sometimes I, I do need the love of this community right now, you know? And I think that's fine. I think everybody in the community has that right to name that. including the pastor. But if I show up at work saying I need them to affirm me, that's a bad boundary because I'm going to act toward that.
[29:08] And I think that there's a difference between what I described earlier, which happens occasionally, the sense of like, I'm really tired and I just need somebody from this place to affirm me. Let me know. Let me know I'm doing all right here. You know, somebody say amen. Somebody say something, you know, like, I think there's a difference between that and needing the affirmation of the community in order to feel whole in the world. You know, that there's a difference between that. When you're in that other place, I think you're going to act for that versus a thing that, again, I do occasionally, which is look to my community to help soothe me. To help care for me in a moment where I'm feeling especially raw or vulnerable that, yeah, I'm going to go inside the community that I'm in covenant with to try to to try to find some some love from them, you know, that I don't think is a violation of our duty is ordained people or our duty to love them, you know, but it's a slippery slope, though.
[30:25] And, you know, because there's one thing to be the thing that we use to soothe ourselves can easily become our addiction. And, and I think that that's what we're talking about here, where you want to know from people who you're loving and serving and going alongside in their journey, that it's actually helpful to them, that it's actually useful to them. You want to hear that. And then needing to hear that in order to keep doing the job or in order to keep serving is, I think, a different thing. And maybe I mean, I'd be interested to hear what folks in particular, people who are serving and doing this work, how you'd respond to that, because I don't know, I'm thinking about that. I think that's where I stand right now. You know, one of the things in hearing what you were saying earlier is, I think that the danger, it sounds like, with the great man theory and how sometimes as pastors and really in the wider culture we look at things, is that we may not always look at the role of sin in people's lives. That even among the greatest people, they fell short.
[31:37] I mean, I'm always fascinated about the histories of different people and where, you know, they were people who did great things, but they also had this dark side or the thing that brought them up short. And I think that that's a danger is that we can kind of look at these people and see them almost as sinless. And then that almost seems to almost become an idol. Um and that's to me is a danger because then we don't really see them as there's no role for grace or no role for forgiveness absolutely not yeah absolutely not no and that's that's really really dangerous um.
[32:22] And we will look at that person as sinless, or we will only look at their accomplishments and say, I need to be doing that. If I'm doing this well, I need to be doing that. It's one of the things that worries me about social media so much is that because social media is really just the best version of all of us, right? And so you might see somebody just knocking it out the park, home run, home run, home run every day. You know, oh, I'm honored. I'm doing this, this, this, and this. And it's like, you're not seeing their struggle. They're not talking about that.
[32:56] And that would be helpful to people, I think. It would work against the great man theory if we would share more of our vulnerability, even from the pulpit, you know, and that's something I've been working on more as well. But we teach when we only see the success, then we teach that that's the norm. And that's one of the things that I appreciate about the gospel is that we see these moments where Jesus is weak, he's vulnerable, he's tired, he's upset, frustrated, disappointed. But you get to see these things and you get to hear him say, I don't need you following me. I need you thinking about how you can love better. That's what I need you doing.
[33:48] And I'm here to be an example of that. But I need you to not be so worried about me and focus on that love piece. Focus on that log in your eye piece. Focus on that kind of stuff, as opposed to making sure that you're worshiping me right. That when i read that stuff i'm like wow that jesus he really tried no matter how much i think the experiment failed ultimately for jesus to de-center himself uh as the most important person in human history that that that experiment we can say failed we can we can say that um but that like he really tried to do it and that really afterwards we just kind of said uh.
[34:41] I think we should build a church around Jesus. You know, like, I think we should. I think we should. Oh, he was alive for 30 years and on a cross for three days. Yeah. No, we should definitely make the primary symbol him on the cross. That's what we should do. Yes. You know, and that's when I say it like this, like, doesn't that sound weird? Like, seriously, that we would do that. It sounds a little weird.
[35:10] But I get it. I get it because what Jesus was trying to do was to get us to have a kind of vulnerability that invited us to live life with others. And that's very difficult to do. That's very difficult to do. I'd rather do it myself. I'd rather figure it out myself. I'd rather master it myself. And then when I do that, you can understand how much of a master I was. You can appreciate how good I was. Um that that just i don't want to get into the 21st century is an individualistic society and all that but there are realities that we are just not socialized into community the ways in which we i think need to be oh yeah um and the ways in which some communities are doing very well in particular and marginalized and oppressed spaces where communities are saying all right Hey, we got to figure out how to live this life together as a mode of survival. We have to live this life together. That when people don't have to, if I don't have to trust you to survive, to save my own life, I get with you when I get with you. You know, that's kind of where we are now. And we got to, I think if there's any work we can be doing inside the church is helping to talk more about that.
[36:31] Yeah, it reminds me, one of kind of a sermon series I did before the pandemic was based on the concept of Ubuntu.
[36:44] Yes, I am because we are. I am because we are. And I think that that's something that we need to hear even more. Especially, I think, I don't know if COVID did that, did something that made it even stronger, that we become more atomized. But, yeah, I think that we need to hear that more, that we are because of others and also from God, but we aren't just our self-contained self. We are connected in many ways.
[37:19] And and this is how much we've come to idolize ourselves i think as humans like, that idea is beautiful and if you just said hey i am because we are we got to understand that everybody would be like oh my goodness i love it i love it i love it but when you call it a ubuntu people start getting all funny about it in some spaces i'm gonna just name it you know, like people start getting all, oh, well, that's a cute African idea. You know what we do to African and Hispanic ideas, another kind of Japanese idea. You know, we romanticize and fetishize them instead of taking them seriously. What would it mean for us to really take seriously the notion of Ubuntu? You know, what would that mean for us? What would be required of us if we were to really reorganize the ethics and behavior of our lives to match what that means and calls for us.
[38:17] You know, I'm just saying, you know, I get on my little, I won't call it my rant. You know, I'm not, I'm not, it's not a disclaimer. It's just the reality. Like that's, there are ideas that are being practiced in this world that, that we look at as cute, you know, and, and we look at the thing Jesus did as, oh, that's cute. that's nice. He loved everybody. And we try to make him a magic man who healed and did magic and walked on water. And we do that so we don't have to follow him. We do that so that the things he said we should do, we can excuse ourselves for not doing. Well, I'm not super like him. You know, but he talked about this stuff. He talked about taking this idea and notion of the great man and throwing it into the river, you know, like getting rid of it. He didn't say that, obviously, but you know, like we're not going to do that. This is not how we're going to be.
[39:24] One of the things that you conclude the essay with a pretty strong statement about the resurrection and how, and I'll kind of quote it here. It says, the resurrection tells a different story altogether, a story of a people whose God is great, and whose blessing belongs to each of us to share and to act out together. So what does the resurrection mean in a world with the great, you know, kind of a great man theory? How does it help us to live a different and can show us a different way?
[40:01] One thing, if we look at the resurrection not simply as one man conquering death, but we then say, comma, as an example to how we all might approach death in our lives and how we might approach the dead and dying things that are all around us as a people, as a community, as a church, as a world. That the resurrection becomes an analog or an example for all of us in a way in which we might approach these things. Then again, and it's kind of like I just said, like we don't we won't apologize for not being able for we won't apologize for being so overwhelmed by the dead and dying things in our lives, because we do that now and we we get overwhelmed and we say, well, I'm not Jesus.
[41:01] But if we understand what happened in that resurrection becomes an allegory for all of us and how we should live our lives and an example for all of us and what what Jesus did now is in need to do for you, which means that in as much as you need God, you need me in as much as I need God. God, I need you. I need you. I need you. We all need each other. Ubuntu, right? And as much as Jesus did that, now we are here to do it over and over and over again every day. And to not just be a symbol of that in the way that the table is, but to know actually do that. Like, no, for real. That that.
[41:43] Then we would stop looking at one person and waiting for one person to do it for us or expecting ourselves to be that one person who's going to do it for everybody. And we would say, no, let's figure out how to do this together because it's all of ours to do. The call is all of ours. The call to resurrect post-resurrection belongs to everybody. Now, the call to overcome death, the call to proclaim life and life abundantly is everybody's. So now I can't look at any one person. In fact, if I am only looking at one
[42:15] person, I'm kind of being idolatrous and forgetting that, you know, this is all of ours. It's kind of a blasphemy to do this.
[42:31] So i'm kind of curious one of the things i when you talked about earlier about the role of with hip-hop i'm kind of curious does hip-hop have anything to teach you about working together collaboration because i think it does yeah oh no absolutely in the obvious ways that you might be thinking.
[42:52] But I'll, here's why I said that, that me being a part of hip hop is so relevant and germane to this conversation, because I know as a rapper in the music industry, who's released, videos and albums and has awards and has been told no a thousand times, you know, in the way of indie artists, right? Who, as somebody who's been in that grind, I can tell you that the people who make it and become exceptional is not because they're more talented. It's not because, you know, in a lot of ways, let me tell you, let me stop talking about what it's not. In so many ways, it is a function of sheer luck. Like you just got there at the right place, right time. You knew the right person. You were willing to work really hard and everything just aligned for you. But I I know so many artists who work really hard, who are really talented, who will say yes to every opportunity, show no laziness, or trying to grow their craft, who have a manager, who have PR, who are doing everything you would say you're supposed to do, and it has not happened for them. And so I know how much making it, quote unquote, is a function of luck.
[44:12] And so when I look at greatness, I'm like, oh, something happened right for them, you know, like something happened right and good for them, you know, good for them. They got that and somebody else didn't, but I'm not going to follow them. I'm not going to try to be them because something happened for them that I don't understand. Something happened in their life that's a function of all the many different qualities that were around and within them at that moment in time that don't exist for me for whatever reason some some things are missing different time different person different alchemy that's involved in all of this and so looking i think when you when i come from a hip-hop perspective I look at people naming the great people of our faith and all of that. And I'm like, that's come on, y'all. What are you talking about? Like, like this, this is, this is not, this is, yeah, this, I don't want to say like, they not, they ain't all of that. Cause now I sound like a hater and that's not what I'm trying to say, but I'm trying to say like, like, that's not the end all be all, you know, like some things just work out for certain artists. And they don't for others.
[45:32] And it ain't because they worked harder or were more talented. No, you can hear songs on the radio now that'll tell you very plainly, like, oh, no, they are not more talented than that artist who came to your church or did this other thing or whatever. Like, you know, artists who work harder, who are more talented and all, it just didn't work out. And that's a part of being an artist. You know, how many artists do we know outside of hip hop? Like painters and stuff where we didn't even pay attention to them until they were dead. Yep. Yeah. You know, like like we and it's just it's kind of happenstance that you fall upon an artist or something like that happens so much that we can't say this person was born great and was born to lead us and was born to be an example for us. Like, oh, come on. You know, don't be naive. Stop that. Stop that. I do sound like a little bit of a hater. I'm not mad at that. I'm not going to mend that. I'm going to keep it. I'm going to keep it. I'm cool with it. I'm cool with it. Anytime I see a kid say to me at the church or anything, like, oh, I want to be like them. I'm like, why? Like, you don't even know what they've been through. Like, just be you. Just be the best version of yourself and it's going to work out. It's going to work out.
[46:54] So if folks want to know a little bit more about you, where should they go?
[47:00] You can go to to jquest.com. That's what a KJKWEST. You can go to Julian Deshaizzi.com. I'm not going to spell my last name here, but if you click either of those, you're going to end up at the same Web site. That's a trick of the Internet. right there yes it is um and on social media i'm at pure quest at uh pure k west is what it looks like and and just around and you can always reach out to me uh just like you did you know like you can always send me a message and and i'm honored to just be in community with folks who want to engage the idea whether you agree or not like i'm i just want to talk about it because i want to use whatever my gifts are, music, pastoring, community stuff, whatever gifts I have, I want to use toward the building of a better world and towards loving God's people in a way that they deserve to be loved and help them bring that love out within themselves so that they can go do it for somebody else.
[48:12] And so if you about that, then we family, you need to holler at me. We need to talk. If you're in Chicago, you need to come by University Church, like for real, come holler at me. The table has a seat for you.
[48:26] All right. Well, Julian, thank you so much for taking the time. And I think we'll be back on the podcast sometime soon. I would love it. I would love it. All right.
[48:41] Music.
[49:10] So I really want to thank Julian for taking the time to come on the podcast. And I will put a link to his article from the Christian Century in the show notes, and I hope that you will read it. What did you think of the congregation? What conversation, I should say? What did you think about his views on the great man theory? What are your views on the great man theory? I'd love to hear what you have to say. You can always drop me a line. You can do that by sending an email to churchinmain at substack.com.
[49:45] And as I always like to say, if you want to learn more about the podcast, to listen to past episodes or donate, you can check us out at churchinmain.org. You can also visit churchinmain.substack.com to read related articles. I would hope that you would consider subscribing to the substack and also subscribing to the podcast. And you can always do that on your favorite podcast app. And I'd really actually love if you could leave a review or rating, especially if you are on something like Apple Podcasts. That really helps others find this podcast. I would love if people could hear this podcast. So if you can do that, that would be great. Well, that is it for this episode of Church and Mate. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Thank you so much for listening. It really means a lot. Take care. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
[50:41] Music.
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