When the Department of Homeland Security launched Operation PARRIS in January 2026, thousands of legal refugees in Minnesota suddenly found themselves targets of ICE arrests and detention — despite having followed every rule required of them. In this episode, I sit down with Emily Belz, senior staff writer at Christianity Today, to unpack how this shocking crackdown unfolded and how faith communities responded.
Shownotes:
Emily Belz- Refugees Disappeared. Churches Prayed and Lawyered Up.
Emily Belz- Excerpts from a Judge’s Ruling in Favor of Minnesota Refugees
Arrive Ministries Facebook Page
Related Episodes:
A Theology of Protest with David Swanson
Why Minneapolis Needs Potlucks with Rachel Pieh Jones
Renee Good and Minnesota ICE with Eric Elkin
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00:00:28 --> 00:00:32 Hello and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:32 --> 00:00:36 intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 So, I want to take you back probably about,
00:00:42 --> 00:00:51 12 or 13 years ago. I was welcoming people to this special event that my church was hosting.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 I was the associate pastor of a congregation in Minneapolis,
00:00:54 --> 00:00:57 and there were people there from the Minnesota Council of Churches.
00:00:58 --> 00:01:04 They have a really strong refugee program, and we were welcoming people to take
00:01:04 --> 00:01:06 part in this event, and they had someone there.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:13 And my guest basically asked, which country takes in the most refugees?
00:01:14 --> 00:01:18 Well, the answer was the United States.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:25 America actually has a history of welcoming people, fleeing persecution to set up new lives here.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:30 My cousin's wife actually is a refugee.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:36 She and her family escaped Cambodia in the mid-1970s, and they were welcomed
00:01:36 --> 00:01:40 and sponsored by a Lutheran church here in the Twin Cities.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:45 The church that I currently serve, which is First Christian Church of St.
00:01:45 --> 00:01:51 Paul, Minnesota, had a history of welcoming Southeast Asians also,
00:01:51 --> 00:01:55 as they were fleeing the upheavals that were taking place in that region as
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 the Vietnam War ended in 1975.
00:01:59 --> 00:02:05 And while Minnesota is known for being a very white state in many ways.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:09 It also has a tradition of welcoming people from around the world.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:15 Minnesota, especially the Twin Cities, have substantial populations of Hmong,
00:02:15 --> 00:02:18 Somali, and Karen refugees.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:23 Churches have really taken the lead in welcoming all of these refugees.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:29 Lutherans, mainline Protestants, evangelicals, all of them have really worked
00:02:29 --> 00:02:34 to help these new Americans make their way here in the United States.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:46 Which brings me to this kind of very, maybe disturbing thing that has come from
00:02:46 --> 00:02:47 the federal government.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:52 In January of 2026, the Department of Homeland Security started something in
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 Minnesota called Operation Paris.
00:02:56 --> 00:03:02 The claim of the initiative was to combat fraud. And that meant going after
00:03:02 --> 00:03:07 the nearly 6 refugees here in the state who were here legally,
00:03:07 --> 00:03:10 but had not yet received their green cards.
00:03:10 --> 00:03:18 What this led to was ICE going after a number of these refugees and in some
00:03:18 --> 00:03:21 cases sending them to detention in Texas.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:27 Today, I am speaking with Emily Bells, a reporter with Christianity Today,
00:03:28 --> 00:03:34 to talk about Operation Paris and especially how evangelical churches stepped
00:03:34 --> 00:03:38 up to try to protect refugees in Minnesota.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:45 Now, Bells had spent a fair amount of time here in Minnesota during Operation Metro Surge.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:50 She reported especially on how evangelical churches responded to ICE.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:54 In addition to this story on refugees,
00:03:54 --> 00:03:59 now I need to put a caveat here that while this is a story primarily about what
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 is going on here in the North Star State,
00:04:02 --> 00:04:10 this issue regarding refugees and homeland security basically going after them
00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 is actually a nationwide problem.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:18 Before we go into our conversation, a little bit more about Emily.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:23 She is a senior staff writer on the news team for Christianity Today.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:28 She has nearly 20 years of experience in long-form feature reporting,
00:04:28 --> 00:04:32 writing in local, national, and international news.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:38 In addition to her time with Christianity Today, she has written for the New
00:04:38 --> 00:04:42 York Times, World Magazine, Plow, and the New York Daily News,
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 The Hill, and the Indianapolis Star.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:51 So please join me in this very important discussion on the Trump administration
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 and refugees with Emily Bells.
00:05:13 --> 00:05:15 Well, Emily, thank you for taking the time to chat with me.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 I wanted to start off by knowing a little bit about you, who you are,
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 kind of your background, and also your spiritual background.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:29 Oh, thanks for asking. I grew up in the mountains of North Carolina,
00:05:29 --> 00:05:34 and I grew up in a Presbyterian home,
00:05:34 --> 00:05:42 and I've worked in evangelical media my whole career, so I feel very familiar with that world.
00:05:43 --> 00:05:48 Um, I also went to a Presbyterian college, so there's a lot of Presbyterianism,
00:05:49 --> 00:05:53 uh, that I'm probably not even aware of that's, that's there.
00:05:53 --> 00:06:00 But, um, yeah, I, uh, think that despite the, um,
00:06:01 --> 00:06:05 you know, growing up in the Bible belt and all of that, I was in a city that
00:06:05 --> 00:06:12 is, um, in Asheville, North Carolina, which is, uh, diverse spiritually, I would say.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:18 So I think that gave me a sort of insider-outsider feel for spirituality,
00:06:18 --> 00:06:22 that there's a lot of different perspectives out there.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:26 So I think it's in the Bible Belt, but not exactly of the Bible Belt,
00:06:26 --> 00:06:28 if that makes sense. It does.
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 But yeah i um i i think
00:06:34 --> 00:06:38 that uh being in i
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 haven't done a lot of reporting in minnesota before but it
00:06:41 --> 00:06:45 was interesting just to see i'd be curious to hear your perspective on what
00:06:45 --> 00:06:50 the spiritual geography is of the twin cities but um it's interesting to see
00:06:50 --> 00:06:56 there too i saw some similarities to ashville in some ways of there's this there
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 is this evangelical side of the city but there's so much else going on.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:04 So I felt some familiarity, oddly enough, in being there.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:09 Yeah. Minnesota is interesting in that it's...
00:07:11 --> 00:07:16 It is kind of like, especially the Twin Cities, kind of like Asheville on steroids.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:18 It's a bigger Asheville.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:22 But it also has a very strong religious background. You know,
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 it's very Lutheran, very Catholic.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:32 And so it has that interesting mix that you may not see in other parts of the country.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:45 And so, it's kind of fascinating to see what Minnesota is like in its religious landscape.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 And it's also pretty diverse.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:56 Obviously, because of the Somali population, a growing Muslim population. And so.
00:07:59 --> 00:08:06 It's just an odd duck, I think, especially around the Midwest in that it's both
00:08:06 --> 00:08:09 very diverse but also, I think, very religious,
00:08:09 --> 00:08:17 which I think kind of factored into some of how the state and people responded,
00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 especially with the ice surge.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:24 I think it really did factor in. Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:29 I'm going to hold myself back from interviewing you because I think that I'm
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 so interested in your perspective on everything as somebody who actually lives there.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:39 But, yeah, I noticed that in the short time I was there that there was just
00:08:39 --> 00:08:41 a lot going on in terms of that.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 There's some communities that were kind of working in their own lanes,
00:08:44 --> 00:08:49 but then there was this interesting overlap of different groups that I wouldn't
00:08:49 --> 00:08:52 expect to be working together who were working together. So,
00:08:52 --> 00:08:56 yeah, I'm interested in how you notice that stuff, too.
00:08:57 --> 00:09:01 Well, we can get to that as we chat. So, no problem.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 But one of the reasons I did want to talk to you, because you wrote an article
00:09:04 --> 00:09:12 just recently in Christianity Today kind of about refugees and how they were
00:09:12 --> 00:09:16 getting basically arrested by ICE.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:22 And the reason I, it's fascinating about that is Minnesota has,
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 I think, a strong history of welcoming refugees.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:37 Obviously, there has been the, you talked about and picked up the Karen from Burma.
00:09:38 --> 00:09:44 Also, just a lot of people from Southeast Asia, especially dating back from the 70s.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:50 Obviously, we have welcomed in, there aren't as much refugees,
00:09:50 --> 00:09:55 but immigrants from Somalia, just from different parts of the world that...
00:09:57 --> 00:10:04 It's kind of an odd thing that is a state that's very primarily still very primarily white european,
00:10:05 --> 00:10:09 but as always in some ways have opened up their arms to welcome people from
00:10:09 --> 00:10:16 every part of the world and so here was this interesting story that actually
00:10:16 --> 00:10:19 kind of began it seems like in minnesota,
00:10:19 --> 00:10:24 but has now kind of become nationwide um and that was start talking about the
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27 um what's called Operation Paris.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:31 Could you kind of explain a little bit about that? And what did you learn,
00:10:31 --> 00:10:32 especially in your time here?
00:10:34 --> 00:10:38 Yeah, this is a pretty dramatic and shocking operation. I mean,
00:10:38 --> 00:10:44 I think people get confused between the terms refugees and asylum seekers.
00:10:44 --> 00:10:49 And asylum seekers would be the people who show up in the border and ask for asylum.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:54 Refugees are people who wait at a camp overseas, often for more than a decade,
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 for an invitation from the U.S.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 To come and resettle here. And so they're legal immigrants.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:08 They've gone through all this vetting from different agencies in the U.S. and the U.N.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:13 So the fact that they were getting arrested, which was what was happening under
00:11:13 --> 00:11:20 Operation Paris, was shocking to everyone and not something anyone expected.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:22 And it wasn't even really announced.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:30 It was put on a press release on the USCIS website. So even the agencies who
00:11:30 --> 00:11:32 work with refugees didn't know that this was coming.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:38 They just started hearing from refugees' families who said that people hadn't
00:11:38 --> 00:11:41 shown up after work, who just disappeared.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:51 So it was a very scary and re-traumatizing situation for people who had already
00:11:51 --> 00:11:52 been through horrible persecution.
00:11:52 --> 00:12:00 I mean, that's the reason they were granted refugee status is they could prove that they've had,
00:12:00 --> 00:12:06 you know, experienced torture or persecution of other sorts,
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 that their lives were in danger.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:18 So this operation is supposed to re-examine, quote unquote, their status, so their legal status.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:24 And what they could have done is just invite people in for interviews.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:30 Everyone is, you know, registered with the government. The government has all their...
00:12:32 --> 00:12:37 Address. They have to keep an updated address. They have all their biometric data.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:41 They have all their background check information. It's very easy to find these people.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:49 So there was an easy way to do this, but instead they chose to choose the most
00:12:49 --> 00:12:53 horrible way, which was grabbing people off the street, invading their homes.
00:12:55 --> 00:13:01 And then what ended up happening is a lot of these refugees were immediately
00:13:01 --> 00:13:03 transferred to detention centers in Texas.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:08 So it was the nature of none of this being announced.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:14 And then the sudden transfers to detention centers, it was a very scary situation.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:18 It remains a very scary situation, even though there's been some court orders
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 that have halted some of this.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 But yeah, I think the.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 The operation was carried out in the most cruel way possible.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:41 It was done without, you know, each of these refugees have resettlement agencies
00:13:41 --> 00:13:42 that partner with the federal government.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:45 And so even the resettlement agencies
00:13:45 --> 00:13:50 had heard nothing from their federal partners when I talked to them.
00:13:50 --> 00:14:01 So it was just this chaotic rollout that led to a lot of really heartbreaking situations.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:07 And you share a few of those in the story. I think one you talked about was
00:14:07 --> 00:14:13 a nursing mother that was arrested and separated from her five-month-old child.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:21 I mean, that's amazing and horrid to hear. Yeah, and that was another instance
00:14:21 --> 00:14:25 of ICE entering a home without a warrant.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:34 The family had been helping someone else carry their groceries in and had the
00:14:34 --> 00:14:35 door propped open and the agents
00:14:35 --> 00:14:40 came in and asked for their ID and they shared their identification,
00:14:40 --> 00:14:45 showed they were legal refugees, and then they took the mom.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:52 Um, uh, so it's, you know, just baffling and horrible.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:57 And, um, she was immediately transferred to Texas and was there for weeks,
00:14:57 --> 00:15:01 um, until a judge ordered that she be released.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 So it took a judge's order.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:06 It wasn't, they could have just interviewed her and released her,
00:15:06 --> 00:15:12 but instead they were holding her as long as possible. And we have updated,
00:15:12 --> 00:15:13 um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.
00:15:14 --> 00:15:19 Guidance from the federal government now that they're asking or they're saying
00:15:19 --> 00:15:23 that they have the right to indefinitely detain these refugees.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:30 So that's still something that's being debated in courts, and we'll see how
00:15:30 --> 00:15:31 courts feel about that so far.
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 They've lost every single motion that they've made in these cases,
00:15:35 --> 00:15:39 but that doesn't mean that they won't ultimately prevail.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:42 So it's a really messy situation.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:50 Do you have found out why they feel like they can do this, that they can just
00:15:50 --> 00:15:55 detain people that, having gone through a long,
00:15:55 --> 00:16:00 long vetting process and are supposed to be getting a green card,
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 all of a sudden just say, hi, we're just going to detain you?
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 Was there any reasoning behind this?
00:16:06 --> 00:16:12 Well, I think the Trump administration has made it clear that they're against
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 the refugee program. I mean, they've all but shut it down.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:21 So now we have very few refugees who were admitted last year,
00:16:21 --> 00:16:26 and I think it's almost down to below 1 that are going to be released this
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 year or allowed in this year.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:34 So they're effectively ending the one program that the president has control over.
00:16:35 --> 00:16:41 And I think that they're seeing this as another way to get rid of more people.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:49 And, you know, the Biden administration had brought, had raised the refugee levels.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:55 It was still a very low level. I mean, it took, because the first Trump administration
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 had mostly dismantled the program,
00:16:58 --> 00:17:03 then it took a long time for the Biden administration to rebuild it.
00:17:03 --> 00:17:08 So it wasn't even until the last year or so that it was back to normal levels
00:17:08 --> 00:17:09 of refugee resettlement.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16 But I think, I mean, I'm not trying to impute motives, but I think that it's
00:17:16 --> 00:17:21 clear that there is an anti-refugee policy in the administration. Yeah.
00:17:23 --> 00:17:35 And one of the things that was also interesting in the article is how the church community stood up.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:44 I kind of grew up in an evangelical background, but in a more mainline Protestant background now.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:52 But I still follow things going on. And it was fascinating to see not just churches,
00:17:52 --> 00:17:58 but especially on Facebook, Arrive Ministries.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:08 And whoever works their social media campaign accounts probably should get a
00:18:08 --> 00:18:14 raise because they were doing a lot of work to spread the awareness of the issue.
00:18:14 --> 00:18:21 Um so i'm kind of interesting what you learned about how um local community
00:18:21 --> 00:18:28 the kind of people on the ground what did they do to kind of get the message out to a wider audience.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:38 Yeah i think that it's important to know that arrive is part of a conservative evangelical world.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:45 I think that people maybe assume now, because we have these political categories
00:18:45 --> 00:18:49 for everything, that they're not, but they really are.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:55 And they share a building, I mean, you know all this stuff, but they share a
00:18:55 --> 00:19:00 building with Transform Minnesota, which is an evangelical organization for the whole state.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 They share it with a pregnancy resource center, they share it with a prison ministry.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:10 And so, this is not mainline.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:14 They're very conservative evangelical.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:21 And so, for them to be as angry as they are is significant. And it's part of why I've.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:29 We went there to do reporting. You know, this is a red line for a lot of more
00:19:29 --> 00:19:34 conservative Christians, the detention of refugees.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 I mean, refugees have relationships with a lot of evangelical churches because
00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 that's how the resettlement program works.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:47 They partner with individual families, and those families commit to them for
00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 a year or more to help them in their resettlement process.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:57 So there's a lot more knowledge of the immigrant situation with that particular
00:19:57 --> 00:20:02 category. Now, I think maybe that's expanding to other groups of immigrants.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:07 I mean, you would know more about that than me if you've noticed that happening
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 with more conservative churches.
00:20:09 --> 00:20:16 But it seems to me that there's a little bit more understanding overall of different
00:20:16 --> 00:20:21 categories of immigrants and how hard things are to navigate any level of our
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 immigration system because it's so messed up.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:29 I was listening to some...
00:20:30 --> 00:20:37 Conservative pastors deliver sermons in the, you know, during all the Alex Pretty stuff.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:42 And just curious, you know, if things were shifting at all.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:49 And I've heard people talk about the, you know, Romans 13 is a big thing of
00:20:49 --> 00:20:51 follow the authorities.
00:20:51 --> 00:20:59 But then I was hearing more people talking about the midwives in Egypt who disobeyed
00:20:59 --> 00:21:04 because they wanted to save these babies and things like that.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:10 So, I think even in evangelical churches, there's maybe some shifts going on
00:21:10 --> 00:21:16 where it's not just refugees that they're angry about, but it's all of this that's happening.
00:21:17 --> 00:21:21 I don't know if you've noticed any shifts like that or if it,
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 I mean, I was there for a short time.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 So my impressions are impressions.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:33 You know, I think there might be, I know at least, especially on the refugee
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 front, that was the big thing.
00:21:36 --> 00:21:40 But I've also know, it's interesting,
00:21:40 --> 00:21:49 a lot of the kind of immigrant churches that tend to be more evangelical were
00:21:49 --> 00:21:53 kind of the focal points for a lot of mutual aid.
00:21:53 --> 00:21:58 And so, I think that it's reaching into that as well.
00:22:00 --> 00:22:05 You may not hear it as much, and they probably don't get as much press,
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07 but I think that that is happening.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:14 And I think, especially with the refugees, that's kind of an entry point for
00:22:14 --> 00:22:21 the reasons that you said is that there are so many churches that have—they're
00:22:21 --> 00:22:22 kind of set up in that way.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:29 What I found fascinating was that I was kind of aware of that,
00:22:29 --> 00:22:34 and a few other people were, but I would also hear from people who would think, well,
00:22:35 --> 00:22:39 are evangelicals doing anything? And I'm kind of like, yeah, they are.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:46 There are things happening, but it's either people aren't in our kind of social
00:22:46 --> 00:22:52 media way, the algorithms only kind of show one side, so we don't get to see everything.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:58 But I think it is happening probably on a slower basis.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:06 But I think especially here, if seeing a lot of what has been going on has really
00:23:06 --> 00:23:11 thought made people kind of more aware of what's happening.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:16 And like I said, especially with the refugees, that has been kind of the entry point.
00:23:16 --> 00:23:25 Well, I saw just today that John Piper tweeted a verse about caring for the stranger.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:29 I don't know if you saw this. No, I did not. That's, that's interesting.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:33 But he is getting raked over the coals on X.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:38 No surprise, but it's from a lot of evangelicals.
00:23:38 --> 00:23:43 And so I think, I guess I understand you're, that people are quiet, maybe.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:49 Maybe they're doing the work on the more conservative side, but they're not
00:23:49 --> 00:23:57 advertising it because there is this culture on the Internet of really bullying, I think.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:04 Yeah, I think probably a lot of it is happening sub Rosa that there it's not.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:10 Probably for the reasons that just happened, because if someone like John Piper
00:24:10 --> 00:24:16 is getting raked over the coals for what he said, a lot of people are probably
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 just going below the radar. Yeah.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:23 What he said being one Bible verse. I know.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:28 And probably rather anodyne in some ways.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:35 It wasn't that radical. I'm glad he said it, but it's not like it's shocking.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 But but it's also x so you know these
00:24:38 --> 00:24:41 days it's it's it's
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 it's yeah yeah but x becomes
00:24:44 --> 00:24:51 real life as we've seen in many ways with sadly yeah so one of the things also
00:24:51 --> 00:25:00 because you in that article you talk about it is you know dhs is actually expanding
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 this that they're actually,
00:25:03 --> 00:25:09 wanting to detain more people as these people are waiting on their green cards.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:16 And so what is the, what do you think is going to be the plan forward?
00:25:16 --> 00:25:21 And I know, um, arrive is, is really the Minnesota branch of world relief,
00:25:21 --> 00:25:22 which is the bigger organization.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 And they've also been kind of out front on this.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 What do you think is going to be the plan moving forward of how,
00:25:30 --> 00:25:36 how do they deal with this, um, in the next few years? Yeah.
00:25:37 --> 00:25:43 Well, I mean, again, it's also unprecedented that Arrive didn't have lawyers
00:25:43 --> 00:25:48 for their clients because they didn't, their clients didn't need lawyers because they were legal.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:53 So now they've had to come up with legal strategies for these arrests.
00:25:53 --> 00:26:00 So, you know, one thing that they've been doing is FOIA-ing the refugee zone
00:26:00 --> 00:26:05 files, and that takes a long time, but they don't know what they're walking
00:26:05 --> 00:26:07 into with these reexaminations.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:13 So they're trying to prepare their clients as much as they can for whatever
00:26:13 --> 00:26:18 it is the government might throw at them. I mean, the concern is that this is a new administration.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:24 The people who might be interviewing them might be completely unaware of the refugee program.
00:26:24 --> 00:26:32 They might be not experts in, let's say, Myanmar or wherever the country is
00:26:32 --> 00:26:33 that these people are coming from.
00:26:33 --> 00:26:38 And so they want to provide the refugees with as much and their lawyers with
00:26:38 --> 00:26:42 as much information as they can give to give them the best shot because they
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44 think that maybe they're basically being.
00:26:46 --> 00:26:51 Sent through the whole refugee process again which they've already done for years.
00:26:52 --> 00:27:01 So it's something that they're kind of putting the plane together as it's flying but I think,
00:27:02 --> 00:27:08 One big thing is going to be these court cases. And so far, you know,
00:27:08 --> 00:27:15 we've had the refugees have won their cases in Minnesota, but the administration
00:27:15 --> 00:27:16 has appealed all of those decisions.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:19 And so it's not going down without a fight.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:23 So yeah they are
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28 trying to continue to do this I keep hearing rumors of refugees being arrested
00:27:28 --> 00:27:33 in other states I haven't heard anything confirmed on that but it's hard for
00:27:33 --> 00:27:42 anyone to know because these refugees are self-sufficient they are not regularly in touch with.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:45 Organizations to support them.
00:27:46 --> 00:27:51 They're usually, they have jobs, they have a life, they have generally been
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 successful in resettling.
00:27:54 --> 00:28:00 And so they don't, yeah, usually it's only the extreme cases where someone will
00:28:00 --> 00:28:06 call and say, hey, my relative has disappeared and I don't know what to do.
00:28:06 --> 00:28:10 So, yeah, it's something that we're going to continue to follow because there
00:28:10 --> 00:28:16 is this aggressive... I mean, in some ways, the refugees are the easiest immigrants
00:28:16 --> 00:28:20 to arrest because they aren't expecting it. They're legally here.
00:28:22 --> 00:28:25 Again, like I said, all their information is with the government,
00:28:25 --> 00:28:30 so the government knows where they are. And to me, it seems just...
00:28:31 --> 00:28:38 The lowest hanging fruit to go after people who have complied with every single,
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41 appointment that's been asked of them.
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 They have followed all the rules.
00:28:47 --> 00:28:52 I've talked to refugees in Minnesota who are in hiding and they feel like their
00:28:52 --> 00:28:57 world's upside down because they thought, well, we followed all the rules and
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 now we can't trust the federal government.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:07 Now we can't even open our doors to any agent of the federal government.
00:29:08 --> 00:29:09 So there's this,
00:29:11 --> 00:29:16 it's really tough. It's just, you know, someone described it to me as Kafkaesque,
00:29:16 --> 00:29:23 and it does feel that way because now if they get called in for these re-interviews,
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28 like a normal way that the government could have done this, just go to the office
00:29:28 --> 00:29:30 and talk to an immigration officer,
00:29:30 --> 00:29:33 they're afraid of doing that.
00:29:33 --> 00:29:39 So it's created this worse situation where now places like Arrive are trying
00:29:39 --> 00:29:45 to convince refugees to go to those appointments and then refugees are scared justifiably.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 So there's this broken trust that's going to, I mean, we see this play out with
00:29:51 --> 00:29:52 the Trump administration.
00:29:53 --> 00:29:57 I've seen it play out in so many communities where just this social fabric gets
00:29:57 --> 00:30:02 torn apart needlessly and it's so hard to put it back together.
00:30:04 --> 00:30:09 How do you think that kind of touched on it earlier, but with seeing what's
00:30:09 --> 00:30:14 happening, how do you think that this is affecting people?
00:30:15 --> 00:30:19 With evangelicals in, you know, in different places.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:23 And obviously, there are going to be people who this doesn't affect because
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 in a lot of ways, it doesn't touch them.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:31 But it's obviously touching people in, you know, as your reporting shows here
00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 in Minnesota, and probably in other parts of the country.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 You know, how are they kind of wrestling with all of Yeah.
00:30:42 --> 00:30:46 Again, I'm interested in your perspective, but I have noticed,
00:30:47 --> 00:30:51 I mean, there's always going to be a bucket of people who are in their own information
00:30:51 --> 00:30:57 silo who will not be convinced by anything who could see the videos of a refugee
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 being arrested and would still say, well,
00:30:59 --> 00:31:03 this is just collateral for a good enforcement campaign.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:10 But I think there is a significant bucket of people who have had their minds changed.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:17 I think there are people who I've heard a lot from readers of Christianity Today
00:31:17 --> 00:31:23 who are really discouraged about the church broadly and were so encouraged by
00:31:23 --> 00:31:27 what they saw Minnesota Christians doing,
00:31:27 --> 00:31:33 both mainline and evangelical, I would say, in terms of helping their neighbors.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:40 And I think it's clear from the example of Minnesota churches that this is not
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 an easy thing to do. This is inconvenient.
00:31:43 --> 00:31:48 You don't know how long it's going to continue, that you have to keep bringing
00:31:48 --> 00:31:51 food to people, driving people to work, doing all the things that Minnesota
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54 churches have been doing, showing up to protest.
00:31:54 --> 00:32:00 I mean, a couple weeks ago, no one knew how long this was going to continue
00:32:00 --> 00:32:03 at the level that it was continuing.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:08 So I think seeing in the sacrifice that was required, I mean,
00:32:08 --> 00:32:12 even people's lives, that.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:19 Americans were able to show up and be the adults in the room.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:25 I think that has been super encouraging to Christians around the country.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:32 So I don't know how much evangelicals would show up for protests,
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 and maybe you saw evangelicals at protests.
00:32:35 --> 00:32:42 I know individually of some that went in Minnesota, But I don't know institutionally
00:32:42 --> 00:32:47 if that's a thing that evangelicals do as much, but they will show up and they
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49 will do the mutual aid, like you said.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:54 So I think I've heard from a lot of churches who said, hey, now we know how
00:32:54 --> 00:32:56 to do this by the example of Minnesota.
00:32:56 --> 00:33:05 So, I think there's more gumption now to do this kind of thing and to see that
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08 it's possible even in a really difficult circumstance.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:15 So, I don't know, despite all the horribleness of the situation there,
00:33:16 --> 00:33:22 it seems like it's been really a boost to a lot of Christians that this is what the church can be.
00:33:22 --> 00:33:27 So, um, but I don't want to be too rose colored about it.
00:33:27 --> 00:33:30 I don't, I'm curious for, for how it feels for you.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:36 Does it feel like it's been encouraging or does it feel more complicated? Yeah.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:42 It's a little bit of both. I think it's been encouraging to see people,
00:33:42 --> 00:33:48 I think, from all walks of life and from all backgrounds step up.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:54 I think one thing I would have loved to see,
00:33:54 --> 00:34:02 especially in the protesting and all that stuff, was a little bit more reaching
00:34:02 --> 00:34:07 out across partisan or ideological lines sometimes.
00:34:07 --> 00:34:14 And sometimes that didn't happen as much, but that's kind of where we're at right now as a nation.
00:34:15 --> 00:34:20 But I think what has been helpful and hopeful is to see people,
00:34:21 --> 00:34:25 again, from different backgrounds, whether they be mainline Protestant or evangelical
00:34:25 --> 00:34:30 or Catholic, kind of all say, this is not right.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 This is wrong and we're going to do something about it.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:39 And whether that was in protesting, whether that was in mutual aid, I mean,
00:34:40 --> 00:34:45 there were just a lot of people that were willing to not just kind of go with
00:34:45 --> 00:34:48 the official line, that there were kind of, as you said earlier,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:55 a lot of shipwra and puas out there that were willing to disobey or not listen
00:34:55 --> 00:35:00 to what the federal government was telling them and to.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:06 I think, to really put themselves on the line and decide that it was more important
00:35:06 --> 00:35:11 to follow Christ than it was to follow the government in this case.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:18 Yeah, and I will say in the short time I was there that I met several people who were either,
00:35:19 --> 00:35:22 lapsed Christians or had never gone to church who said to me,
00:35:22 --> 00:35:27 I'm interested in visiting a church because of this is what the church is like.
00:35:28 --> 00:35:29 It has my curiosity.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:35 And I don't, I think that's unusual.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:42 I don't think even, you know, we track these trends at Christianity Today of
00:35:42 --> 00:35:47 interest in church and all that, and there's a growing interest in spirituality.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:53 There's not a growing interest in going to church. So I think that's,
00:35:53 --> 00:35:59 if the church can be known for helping people, maybe that's a good way forward.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:03 But we'll see if it spreads other places.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:09 I'm kind of curious, what do you think is going to, or have you heard anything
00:36:09 --> 00:36:17 about what is going to be the future moving forward with DHS and all of this?
00:36:17 --> 00:36:22 Do you know, are they, this is the plan that they're going to be looking and
00:36:22 --> 00:36:29 scrutinizing everyone's status once they, you know, refugees and all that? Is that...
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 Is this going to be how refugees are going to have to live with kind of looking
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36 over their shoulder? That's the fear.
00:36:39 --> 00:36:44 There's, I think, 100 refugees at risk nationwide.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:51 The specific re-examination is for any refugee that hasn't received their green card yet.
00:36:51 --> 00:36:56 So refugees apply for green cards one year after their arrival.
00:36:56 --> 00:36:59 Um but the trump
00:36:59 --> 00:37:02 administration stopped processing those green cards and so
00:37:02 --> 00:37:06 it's sort of the situation where they applied but there's no way for them to
00:37:06 --> 00:37:11 actually get the green card so they're getting re-examined you know it's this
00:37:11 --> 00:37:20 sort of circular reasoning but kafka yes yes yeah so um yeah that's a lot of people who are at risk.
00:37:21 --> 00:37:27 And I think that DHS has made clear that they.
00:37:31 --> 00:37:34 Intend to go as far as courts will allow them to go.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:39 They haven't been very communicative,
00:37:41 --> 00:37:45 about how they're going to go about this. I mean, it seems like they're throwing
00:37:45 --> 00:37:49 spaghetti against the wall in terms of, we'll arrest some of these people,
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52 we'll interview these people nicely in an office, we'll...
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 Shackle people who are interviewed in other
00:37:57 --> 00:38:00 situations so i those are specific cases i heard
00:38:00 --> 00:38:08 about and to me it blows my mind to think of um a legal refugee being shackled
00:38:08 --> 00:38:16 like they're they committed some crime um but yeah i think the agencies like
00:38:16 --> 00:38:18 arrive and uh um you You know,
00:38:18 --> 00:38:24 advocates for human rights in Minnesota, they have been a huge help to this situation.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:31 I heard multiple people bring them up because they're handling a lot of the legal representation.
00:38:32 --> 00:38:36 I mean, again, like I said, these World Relief and these other groups don't
00:38:36 --> 00:38:44 have lawyers ready to go to help these refugees out when they get because the speed is so important.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:48 And I think we have all become kind of familiar with this because it's happened
00:38:48 --> 00:38:54 so many times. But you have to file a habeas petition right away if someone's
00:38:54 --> 00:38:56 arrested so they aren't transferred out of state.
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59 And that requires you having lawyers ready to do that.
00:38:59 --> 00:39:04 And it's hard to find immigration lawyers in Minnesota especially.
00:39:04 --> 00:39:11 So I know Advocates for Human Rights has been a huge asset in making that happen
00:39:11 --> 00:39:19 and keeping people from being sent to Texas or in helping win some of these legal cases.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:27 So, yeah, it's all hands on deck. And I think those alliances are really interesting.
00:39:27 --> 00:39:32 I mean, I wonder if ARRIVE and Advocates for Human Rights had ever worked together before.
00:39:32 --> 00:39:38 I'm guessing they haven't. yeah um and so i think that this is probably a first
00:39:38 --> 00:39:45 but i would it would make sense because advocates for human rights has a long
00:39:45 --> 00:39:47 track record that it would make sense that,
00:39:48 --> 00:39:52 that's who they would go to or at least that they, the two would start working together.
00:39:53 --> 00:40:02 Yeah. Well, and when I was at, uh, Dios Abla Oye, which is an evangelical, um.
00:40:03 --> 00:40:09 Latino church, uh, they were telling me, so they're running this huge food program.
00:40:09 --> 00:40:13 They were telling me that most of their volunteers are from the LGBTQ community.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:18 So I also think there's interesting uh
00:40:18 --> 00:40:20 maybe alliances that didn't exist before or
00:40:20 --> 00:40:23 at least people bumping into each other who didn't bump into each
00:40:23 --> 00:40:26 other before and that's always a
00:40:26 --> 00:40:32 good thing i think it is you know there is another church um i think it's an
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 evangelical latino church in burnsville so in the southern suburbs that has
00:40:37 --> 00:40:43 been kind of a focal point and so a lot of churches and again across the church
00:40:43 --> 00:40:46 lines have been helping out.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:52 And I think that that in some way has brought people together in a way that
00:40:52 --> 00:40:57 I, you know, sadly I had to take this to happen, but it has really done that.
00:40:58 --> 00:41:02 I mean, that's the way you win, right, is community.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:11 Exactly. I really believe that so much that we, any time we're spending on our
00:41:11 --> 00:41:15 phones and not with other people is a loss and.
00:41:16 --> 00:41:21 I think that Minnesota showed a different way for people that you can,
00:41:22 --> 00:41:31 you know show up and be just you know escorting someone to work that is so huge
00:41:31 --> 00:41:38 and it's a small thing but it's makes someone less afraid it makes um.
00:41:39 --> 00:41:43 It means that you're not driving to work by yourself. So yeah,
00:41:44 --> 00:41:51 there's just so many things that I think in our isolated society could be good lessons from this.
00:41:52 --> 00:41:56 So, but I don't want to, I'm not trying to romanticize it, you know?
00:41:57 --> 00:42:04 No, but, but it's one of the things that there is good that comes out of a stressful situation.
00:42:04 --> 00:42:09 And I think that that's, I think that that's a good thing. Um,
00:42:09 --> 00:42:13 if something like that can happen in the midst of all of this chaos,
00:42:14 --> 00:42:16 that's, that's a good thing. Yeah.
00:42:17 --> 00:42:23 Um, how are things now? And just from your ground perspective, I'm curious.
00:42:24 --> 00:42:31 It's, it's interesting. I think the word that I always want to use is that I
00:42:31 --> 00:42:34 think it's, it's less intense.
00:42:36 --> 00:42:40 Whereas I think maybe a month ago, obviously, it was very intense.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:42 There were things happening all over the place.
00:42:44 --> 00:42:50 It doesn't feel as heavy, I think, as it once did.
00:42:52 --> 00:42:56 That doesn't mean, obviously, I think there are people that are still in need,
00:42:57 --> 00:43:02 people still I'm still somewhat afraid of going out to do things.
00:43:03 --> 00:43:10 I know that some of the church groups that I work with, they're still collecting food for people.
00:43:13 --> 00:43:19 And I, you know, I think businesses are still trying to kind of figure themselves out after all of this.
00:43:19 --> 00:43:28 So it's not, it's not what it was a month ago, but it's, I think we're still
00:43:28 --> 00:43:34 kind of, it's kind of just slowly decreasing from what it once was.
00:43:35 --> 00:43:41 Yeah. And how are the, so one thing that really struck me when I was there a
00:43:41 --> 00:43:46 few weeks ago, um, was the devastation to Latino communities.
00:43:46 --> 00:43:52 And, um, I mean, from my focus point, Latino churches and seeing a church with
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 500 members is now meeting with 80 and they're locking their doors and all of that.
00:43:56 --> 00:43:59 Um do you have you noticed
00:43:59 --> 00:44:02 that just i don't know in restaurants or
00:44:02 --> 00:44:07 places like that if if there's still a
00:44:07 --> 00:44:14 decline in that population there is i i haven't checked recently in some places
00:44:14 --> 00:44:23 so i i haven't noticed if it has but um one example that i've used in the past was um,
00:44:24 --> 00:44:29 I don't know, there's a chain, a fried chicken chain called Pollo Campero,
00:44:30 --> 00:44:35 which is in a lot of different communities, and they have two locations here
00:44:35 --> 00:44:39 in the Twin Cities, one in just outside of St.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:41 Paul and then another one just outside of Minneapolis.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:52 And those places in the past have always just been busy and filled with Latino families. And,
00:44:53 --> 00:44:59 When I've gone there recently, the door to the dining room has been locked.
00:44:59 --> 00:45:01 So it's just takeouts only.
00:45:03 --> 00:45:07 I haven't really checked recently if things have – I know some businesses have
00:45:07 --> 00:45:09 started to open up again.
00:45:12 --> 00:45:16 But I think it's kind of a slow, slow thing.
00:45:16 --> 00:45:21 I know that there are places – like there are fundraisers happening,
00:45:21 --> 00:45:25 especially for some businesses, just because those businesses were devastated
00:45:25 --> 00:45:27 during this time because either
00:45:27 --> 00:45:32 they were closed or they had to kind of slow down in their business.
00:45:33 --> 00:45:40 We had a few places where the owners were actually arrested and detained.
00:45:40 --> 00:45:48 So it's kind of been a mess, but I think in some places it's slowly healing,
00:45:48 --> 00:45:51 but there's still just a lot of economic damage because,
00:45:52 --> 00:45:58 of course, their businesses, what they were doing was, you know,
00:45:58 --> 00:46:02 how much of our money and everything just went down because they couldn't be
00:46:02 --> 00:46:06 open all the time or they just weren't open at all. Yeah. So.
00:46:06 --> 00:46:13 Have you kind of figured out how to channel your ministry energy?
00:46:13 --> 00:46:18 Because it seems like there's so many different ways you could go as a minister.
00:46:18 --> 00:46:22 I mean, yeah, how have you wrestled with that?
00:46:23 --> 00:46:28 Part of it has been, for me, is finding ways that I can get involved.
00:46:28 --> 00:46:37 And, you know, I've helped try to get my church involved in donating groceries to help people.
00:46:37 --> 00:46:43 And so, I've gone out with people in my congregation to deliver groceries.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:45 And that's been helpful.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:54 I think helping to find ways of helping people understand, you know,
00:46:55 --> 00:47:02 this is how we need to try to help people and to be present with people right now.
00:47:04 --> 00:47:07 And just to try to keep that going, because I think it's going to be a while
00:47:07 --> 00:47:13 before people will feel comfortable enough to resume their normal lives,
00:47:13 --> 00:47:17 because that just was so disruptive to people.
00:47:18 --> 00:47:21 Right yeah well and i've tried to just
00:47:21 --> 00:47:24 explain to people outside
00:47:24 --> 00:47:32 of minnesota just in normal conversations how bad it is it was um and it's so
00:47:32 --> 00:47:35 hard to convey i mean i just think about talking to people who are delivering
00:47:35 --> 00:47:40 food that they would they're checking over their shoulder to see if someone's
00:47:40 --> 00:47:44 following them to the place where they're delivering the food and that is,
00:47:45 --> 00:47:48 crazy to think about in the united states that you
00:47:48 --> 00:47:51 can't give food to somebody without putting them
00:47:51 --> 00:47:54 at risk um so yeah
00:47:54 --> 00:48:02 you had to make sure you're if i was driving to drive a different route you
00:48:02 --> 00:48:08 know if i drove one route to drop people drop food off and drive a different
00:48:08 --> 00:48:12 way to get back because someone could be following you.
00:48:13 --> 00:48:17 And yeah, you just kind of had that sense that,
00:48:18 --> 00:48:24 you could be followed. And, and, you know, so I'm just kind of always looking
00:48:24 --> 00:48:28 around making sure it wasn't, I wasn't being followed.
00:48:28 --> 00:48:30 I probably was, but you know.
00:48:32 --> 00:48:39 Well, it's so great that you have such a good local media set up there.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:45 I mean, I just, I'm, I'm helicoptering in as a national reporter and I'm sure
00:48:45 --> 00:48:50 that's a little bit annoying that you all had so many uh national reporters
00:48:50 --> 00:48:55 who were telling you what your town was like and what places were like but um,
00:48:57 --> 00:49:01 But I'm so impressed with, you know, Star Tribune and all the other,
00:49:02 --> 00:49:06 I mean, there's so many outlets there that are doing great reporting that I
00:49:06 --> 00:49:11 think have made a huge difference on top of what all the churches and everyone else is doing.
00:49:12 --> 00:49:17 I mean, you think about a place like Pittsburgh doesn't have a newspaper anymore.
00:49:18 --> 00:49:21 So it's a gift. It is.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:28 I actually was trained and got my bachelor's in journalism,
00:49:28 --> 00:49:34 so I've always been a kind of a person following the media and hearing about
00:49:34 --> 00:49:40 places like Pittsburgh losing a paper because you won't. And it's because of this reason.
00:49:40 --> 00:49:46 I mean, you won't hear these stories, and those stories are important.
00:49:47 --> 00:49:53 Because if you don't know, then a lot of these things can happen,
00:49:53 --> 00:49:55 and then they will happen under the cover of darkness.
00:49:55 --> 00:50:03 And that's not good. and I think the fact that we've had still have a very strong
00:50:03 --> 00:50:11 media that was able to just report on what's going on and do detailed reporting to show.
00:50:12 --> 00:50:18 I think helps make a difference and I think also helped get the word out beyond
00:50:18 --> 00:50:21 Minnesota to know what's happening.
00:50:21 --> 00:50:25 Yeah, I can tell you have a journalism background. um
00:50:25 --> 00:50:28 there's a curiosity there but
00:50:28 --> 00:50:35 uh i also yeah i think about just the first refugee that gets arrested who do
00:50:35 --> 00:50:40 you call to tell that story you're gonna call somebody who's there and can immediately
00:50:40 --> 00:50:47 give the right context and um get the community that is there to know and care
00:50:47 --> 00:50:47 about what's happening.
00:50:48 --> 00:50:51 And that's something that I can never do.
00:50:51 --> 00:50:56 But it's, yeah, it's amazing that those institutions are there.
00:50:58 --> 00:51:05 Thank you. Yeah. I think it's cool. I'm blessed that we have that here in Minnesota.
00:51:06 --> 00:51:14 Yeah. And you're doing the religion journalism that is local and that's great too.
00:51:15 --> 00:51:19 Well, and I think that that's important because I think this is a story that
00:51:19 --> 00:51:20 a lot of people still don't know about.
00:51:20 --> 00:51:28 And I think the church, this is something that the church does really,
00:51:28 --> 00:51:34 we don't even really think about it. We just don't. Well, here are these refugees.
00:51:34 --> 00:51:37 Oh, yeah, of course, we'll help them. So this is just something that we do.
00:51:38 --> 00:51:43 And I think what's happening now that they're going after refugees really hits
00:51:43 --> 00:51:48 up what the church has always done, which is to welcome people,
00:51:48 --> 00:51:54 especially who are fleeing from persecution and from oppressive governments.
00:51:55 --> 00:52:01 That seems to be a no-brainer. And so when people start to basically go after
00:52:01 --> 00:52:04 them, it's like, yeah, no, we have to say something.
00:52:05 --> 00:52:09 Yeah, there's a lot of complicated issues out there, but this is not one of them.
00:52:10 --> 00:52:18 So that does make it easy in some ways. But I agree. I think that a lot of churches
00:52:18 --> 00:52:21 are meeting the moment in a way that they should.
00:52:22 --> 00:52:27 And that's good for my cynical reporter brain.
00:52:27 --> 00:52:35 So, yeah. Well, and I think that this issue especially is important to help people know that.
00:52:36 --> 00:52:40 Because I think especially in the Trump years, people have just thought that.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:48 Evangelicals are a monolith. And I've always been taught not to believe that
00:52:48 --> 00:52:51 any group is a monolith, that there are differences. Everyone is different.
00:52:53 --> 00:52:58 And especially on this issue, I think it's not a monolith.
00:52:58 --> 00:53:04 And I think people need to know that and know that this is a place where I think
00:53:04 --> 00:53:09 people have been willing to challenge the administration and say, no,
00:53:10 --> 00:53:13 we want to help our neighbors and and to
00:53:13 --> 00:53:16 to do that yeah i will say i
00:53:16 --> 00:53:20 mean just from our internal traffic numbers that this was one of our most read
00:53:20 --> 00:53:26 stories in the last 30 days and so i think people care about this christians
00:53:26 --> 00:53:31 care about this and i don't think that it's minnesota is on everyone's radar
00:53:31 --> 00:53:35 and i don't think that it's going away anytime soon.
00:53:35 --> 00:53:43 So there are evangelicals who do really care about immigrants and want to be
00:53:43 --> 00:53:46 there and help them and do the right thing.
00:53:46 --> 00:53:50 So hopefully that contingent grows.
00:53:52 --> 00:53:56 Well, if people want to kind of read some of the other work you've done,
00:53:56 --> 00:54:01 and I know you've done some other articles, especially on Minnesota, where should they go?
00:54:02 --> 00:54:08 Yeah, ChristianityToday.com. You can look in the news section and find a lot of my coverage.
00:54:09 --> 00:54:18 We're a small staff, but trying to cover things like we're a big company.
00:54:18 --> 00:54:21 Um but yeah i think there there
00:54:21 --> 00:54:24 will be continued in-depth uh coverage
00:54:24 --> 00:54:28 of these things and we try to do more magazine style reporting
00:54:28 --> 00:54:35 and um do the story that's relevant two weeks after a shooting like alex preddy
00:54:35 --> 00:54:40 and not um just the day after so um we'll continue to be following what's happening
00:54:40 --> 00:54:47 in minnesota and um yeah reach out with story ideas so.
00:54:49 --> 00:54:50 Well, Emily, thank you so much.
00:54:51 --> 00:54:54 And thank you for your reporting of what's been going on in Minnesota.
00:54:55 --> 00:54:57 And I hope to have you back on sometime soon.
00:54:58 --> 00:55:02 Yeah, it was a real joy to talk to you. So thanks for being such a good interviewer.
00:55:02 --> 00:55:06 I really enjoyed it. All right. Thank you.
00:55:37 --> 00:55:41 There is one note to my conversation with Emily.
00:55:42 --> 00:55:49 On the day that we recorded, which was February 27th, there was a ruling issued
00:55:49 --> 00:55:53 by Federal District Judge John R. Thunheim here in Minnesota.
00:55:53 --> 00:56:00 And that forbid the federal government from arresting and detaining refugees
00:56:00 --> 00:56:05 in Minnesota who have no grounds for removal and are awaiting green cards.
00:56:06 --> 00:56:11 This injunction I should know only applies to Minnesota.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:18 So in other parts of the country, refugees can still face arrest.
00:56:19 --> 00:56:24 The government hasn't yet, according to this note, and this is actually something
00:56:24 --> 00:56:27 that Emily has written from Christianity Today.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:34 They haven't yet said that they're going to appeal, but it has argued in the
00:56:34 --> 00:56:39 February 18th memo that it can and could or could indefinitely detain refugees
00:56:39 --> 00:56:43 in the U.S. that haven't received green cards yet.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:51 They've included kind of excerpts from Thunheim's ruling, and I wanted to actually
00:56:51 --> 00:56:58 share just a few paragraphs that I think are important to hear.
00:56:58 --> 00:57:01 And as I said, I will put this in the show notes. I hope that you will read
00:57:01 --> 00:57:03 these excerpts. They're pretty important.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:09 This is part of what Thunheim said.
00:57:09 --> 00:57:16 In the Refugee Act, this nation extended a helping hand to those escaping persecution.
00:57:16 --> 00:57:21 We made a simple promise. Pass the vetting, follow the law, and you will be
00:57:21 --> 00:57:25 given a chance at a new beginning in safety.
00:57:25 --> 00:57:31 That promise was not symbolic. It was concrete. It meant the opportunity to
00:57:31 --> 00:57:36 work, to worship, to raise children without fear, and to build a future under
00:57:36 --> 00:57:38 the protection of American law.
00:57:38 --> 00:57:42 Stability, not more fear, was the commitment.
00:57:42 --> 00:57:47 The government's proposed new interpretation upends that commitment without
00:57:47 --> 00:57:52 clear authorization from Congress and rests on constitutionally precarious grounds.
00:57:53 --> 00:57:58 Defendants seek to transform a system built on promised opportunities and freedom
00:57:58 --> 00:58:02 into one of uncertainty and indefinite confinement.
00:58:02 --> 00:58:07 Until the legality of this dramatic shift is addressed at trial,
00:58:07 --> 00:58:12 the court will not allow those who relied on this nation's promise of safety
00:58:12 --> 00:58:14 to be met instead with handcuffs.
00:58:15 --> 00:58:21 The Constitution requires steadiness, fidelity to statute, and respect for promises made.
00:58:21 --> 00:58:31 The rule of law demands no less. Again, that is part of the ruling from Judge John R.
00:58:31 --> 00:58:39 Thunheim, and that is basically, for now at least, forbidding the federal government
00:58:39 --> 00:58:44 from arresting and detaining Minnesota refugees who have no grounds for removal
00:58:44 --> 00:58:46 and are awaiting their green cards.
00:58:46 --> 00:58:52 I will put this in the show notes I do urge you to read it it's an important
00:58:52 --> 00:58:59 document and as I said unfortunately it is not applying to the rest of the country at this time but um,
00:59:00 --> 00:59:08 I wanted to add that note to our conversation. I'd also want to know what you
00:59:08 --> 00:59:15 are thinking about this issue when it comes to refugees.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:25 As usual, you can leave a note by dropping a line at churchandmain at substack.com.
00:59:25 --> 00:59:27 I'd love to hear your thoughts.
00:59:29 --> 00:59:34 Also, if you want to learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes,
00:59:34 --> 00:59:40 donate, check us out at churchinmain.org. You can go to churchinmain.substack.com
00:59:40 --> 00:59:41 to read related articles.
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00:59:53 --> 00:59:57 If you want to make a donation, there are links available in the show notes,
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01:00:07 --> 01:00:12 That is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders,
01:00:12 --> 01:00:14 your host. Thank you so much for listening.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:20 Take care, everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.