In this episode, I chat with David Zahl, founder of Mockingbird Ministries and author of "The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace in a Worn-Out World." We explore the essential role of grace in providing relief amid modern pressures and its importance in fostering genuine connections. Zoll emphasizes the need for vulnerability in relationships and critiques the church's tendency toward condemnation. He offers advice for pastors on embracing humility and recognizing their own need for grace, highlighting it as a vital lifeline for healing and hope in today's world.
The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace in a Worn-Out World
The Main Thing: Relief at the Heart of Christianity
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[0:10] Music.
[0:36] Hello, and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in the intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. As I said in the cold open, what does grace feel like, and what does it look like? Well, it might feel like relief, and maybe the image of that is someone exuding that sound of relief and then that kind of sigh of relief and then collapsing into a chair maybe after a long ordeal. In a world where we always feel like we're on and when we're fearful of what might happen should we ever make a mistake, Grace can feel like a load off our shoulders. Now, today's guest is focusing on grace as relief in a world that just feels weary.
[1:33] David Zahl'slatest book is The Big Relief, The Urgency of Grace in a Worn Out World. Saul thinks that grace, that gift with no strings attached, a gift that we don't expect or don't deserve, is probably the most important contribution of Christianity to the world. And Saul wants us to see Christianity not as a project, but as a refuge from a world that is just worn out.
[2:08] David Zahl is the founder of Mockingbird Ministries. He is also the co-host of the Mockingcast and Brothers Zahl podcast. And he's also the author of several other books, Seculosity, How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What to Do About It, and also Low Anthropology. The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others and Yourself. I have read both books. They are both great. He has also written for Christianity Today and the Washington Post. He lives in Charlottesville, Virginia, along with his family, where he is also on staff of Christ Episcopal Church. So please listen in. This is a great—I had a good time with this interview.
[3:07] I think you will enjoy listening to it. So let's listen in to this episode with David Zahl.
[3:13] Music.
[3:31] Well, Dave, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast. I wanted to start, since it's kind of the first time you're on Church of Maine, just to let people know a little bit about who you are, especially your faith background, and kind of go from there. Sure. Thanks, Dennis. It's really nice to be here. I've listened to a bunch of episodes over the years. I think you're doing great work. um so i'm i'm you're we're doing this interview remotely and i'm in central virginia i'm in charlottesville virginia where the university of virginia is although i was born in new york city, i'm one of three boys and uh my my older brother my younger brother is a theology professor in cambridge my older brother is an episcopal minister outside new york so all of us um we're the son of a pastor and so we all kind of went into the family biz in us in a way But I started Mockingbird back in 2007, and Mockingbird has become like a platform for talking about grace in everyday life. And by platform, I mean, like it started out as a blog, then we got podcasts, and we have a print magazine, and we have conferences we do. We just did a conference in New York, and although I'm Episcopalian, and that's sort of the DNA, sort of, it's become this sort of broad, big tent kind of...
[4:59] Thing that is just, you know, once you start working on the internet and you start talking about the grace of God, you move beyond the walls of whatever little enclaves you're a part of. So, Mockingbird's been around for 17 years, but I do, I also serve part-time or quarter-time now on the staff of the Episcopal Church here, Christ Episcopal in Charlottesville. I used to work with the college students, because this is where UVA is, but now I sort of oversee their adult education, and i preach um and just you know there's faith background wise i i don't i i don't you know love labels with these sorts of things some you might call me sort of a low church uh protestant version of of you know an anglican um but that doesn't mean much you know i i like the 39 articles i robert capon is a big influence on my thinking my father was there's a certainly a friendliness with Lutheran theology as opposed to like reformed theology. But I've also got a fairly, you know, high view of the Holy Spirit.
[6:10] And I feel like I occupy a no man's land or like a middle, not middles, I don't like middle anymore, but I just feel like homeless. That's what I'd say. And I know I've gotten to see you at our Preacher's Project, and it's just a motley crew of folks from all over the map who are brought together by their shared passion for the grace of God. So, anyway, is that clear? I don't know. I think that's very clear. Thanks, Dennis. So, you know, one of the things that I was fascinated by is...
[6:45] I've heard some of the other interviews you've had on your new book, The Big Relief, and you talked a lot about the fact that one of the reasons that you wrote this one is because you felt that your prior one, which was Low Anthropology, kind of was a downer, which is kind of an interesting, because I didn't see it that way when I read that book. But what about it that made you feel that that was kind of ending on a down note? And how did that spur you to write your new book?
[7:20] Thanks. That's a good, that's a great question. So, Lore Anthropology was, I mean, I feel like it was the effect, I hope, was that people felt the same sort of relief they would feel reading The Big Relief, that there was a recognition of reality and the kind of nobody's perfect. We're all in fact much more tied in much more knots than we would ever care to admit both of our own making and ones we've simply inherited through our upbringing and context etc i just think that the the it was a harder sell i could say that like it's because you're basically telling people hey you can't do it all be it all know it all um there are real limitations to what uh to how you've been created, and you share that with everyone, you know, in the human race, as opposed to thinking you're the only one who has abiding weaknesses. So, I believe it was in the service of compassion, but still, when you're saying –.
[8:24] When you're not saying, you know, you are amazing, be all that you can be, the only thing holding you back is you yourself. Like, if you're saying sort of the opposite of that, that can be perceived as a negative. And so I spent a couple of years talking about the book, and I didn't get depressed, to be honest with you. I felt it was fun to talk about things because it opens people up when they feel like they are given permission to be a real human being rather than like some kind of self-improvement project. You get people's real selves, which is a wonderful thing. But the headline of the book is that your weaknesses tell the story more than your strengths do. And if you want to find common ground with another person, don't look at your virtues, look at your vices, or look at your infirmities, and look at your sin. I mean, I was talking about lack of agency, and the willpower being bound. I was talking about the fact that there's a dark side to human nature, and that's not usually seen as happy news. I think ultimately it is happy news in light of God's grace.
[9:39] However, after doing this for a few years, I thought, it'd be good to have a book that was just more outwardly uplifting. I didn't have to do as much work to get to the uplifting part. I could just highlight that aspect, that God loves, God saves, God forgives, you know, that these are the core truths that I think are animating and exciting. So yeah that's kind of where I felt like the need a little bit to, and I don't want to say it just not from a commercial standpoint just for my own sake I was often told that oh you're really good at describing the human condition but can you talk about God's grace and mercy a little bit more and so that's what I tried to do with this book yeah I think.
[10:29] Talking about your last book reminds me of something that I think Andrew Root shared with, and it was a song actually from the artist Bon Iver that was saying that, you know, I'm not that great. And then it also reminds me of the story in this current book that you share about Daryl Strawberry. And he says something to that effect that, you know, I kind of realized I'm not that important. Which in some ways is mind-blowing considering it's like, well, you won a World series and all this stuff but that he kind of came to that knowledge of that and i think you know.
[11:11] That seems counterintuitive in the way that our society is, that we all try to be and say that we're all so special and that what's good about us is all these talents that we have.
[11:26] But I think you have a point when you're saying it's our weaknesses that really tie us to each other, not necessarily our strengths. Well, certainly, you can know someone and know what they're good at, but if you want to really know them, if you want anything remotely approaching intimacy, you need to know what they struggle with, what their blind spots are, what their failures are. And you know same with love like you can i can respect you for your achievements but no one i know no one feels loved truly loved unless their whole self is loved they're not just it's not just what do you call it the resume virtues you know like you feel loved when someone sees the chinks in the armor and sticks around and and offers you favor goodness grace whatever in the middle of your lack of deserving like that's when that's where love really happens and so um yeah i i i think that the daryl strawberry thing is is unbelievable because he was my childhood hero and he still is a hero but like he was a he was a superhero to me growing up outside of new york in the 80s no one was more superhuman than daryl strawberry i mean even his name was just like a comic book name.
[12:47] And to hear that he needed to be humbled in order to rediscover who he was and to experience this undeserved gift of like a 50th chance was so cool to me to hear that even the mighty Daryl Strawberry needed to experience God's grace in order to kind of become whole again.
[13:09] This actually brings up one of the few words I still remember from my Greek in seminary is the word for grace, which is charis, which also is the word for gift.
[13:22] And that I finally find interesting because to see grace really as a gift. But what makes it so hard in our society to accept a gift? I mean, I think that there is a sense, at least in American society, but I think that might be more of a human condition, that... We don't like to feel like we need to receive something unearned. And I think in some ways grace is exactly that. But it feels like that's a hard thing for us, even us churchgoing folk, to really come to terms with. Yeah, I think it's an affront to your self-understanding usually that I'm here by my own merits and because I'm a good person and because I worked really hard. And grace says no like you're here because god has given you grace god has given you righteousness god has given you forgiveness god has given you favor god has given you rest all of the the great gifts um but yeah i mean i think it's um i i remember when i first.
[14:34] Maybe you've heard the refrain in from from people in your church who said you know i have a really hard time receiving. I'm great at giving. I just, you know, it is more blessed to give than to receive, you know, which is Jesus, Paul quoting Jesus, but Jesus never said it, at least not in what we have in the Gospels. But that said, it can feel very uncomfortable to see yourself as someone who needs to receive.
[15:01] And as much as I love, there's a great Madeline L'Engle quote, that she talks about in walking on water, or she says that perhaps we've grown wary of grace because we are so used to earning, and we would so much rather, you know, we've actually been grown, something like we no longer know what it is to walk on water because we're so used to earning and uh but but children love presence that's what she says but children love presence and to get back in touch with those moments when you're a kid and someone gives you a gift it's just total it's total magic and you never forget it and um to think that god gives that way too um in a way that it says i know you you don't deserve this this is uh this is beyond your ability to, you know, to conjure up or manufacture or simply to deserve, like, and yet here it is. Like, that's a, we love that. We tend not to like, of course, we don't like grace when it is extended to the people that have hurt us in our lives. But yeah, there's, I think there's something deeply human about wanting to get what you deserve or to, you know, to be rewarded for your hard work. I mean, that makes life much more manageable, it's much more predictable, much more controllable, and we fear that which we can't control.
[16:30] But the grace of God is like lavish, it's super abundant, and it doesn't operate according to our kind of circular exchange principles, which is a threat to people who feel like life is already out of control.
[16:45] What about grace is also a relief, obviously the title of the book. What is it about it that makes it feel like it's something like a weight off of our shoulders?
[16:59] Well, I think just because we don't turn to grace until it's our only option doesn't mean it doesn't do the trick or that it's ineffective. Perspective i mean i think if you've ever royally screwed up in life um and just you know either, put your foot in it or um publicly failed in some way or simply done something malicious and wrong to someone else like the relief in hearing that your past will not be held against you.
[17:37] Is, how could there be anything but relief? I mean, I talk about it in terms of forgiveness in one of the chapters, because I think that people might have a hard time with infraction, or sin, but if you think about debt you have, like if someone comes, you know, I have credit card debt, you know, like every other American. I don't have student loan debt, which is nice, but I know many people that do, if someone were to say, I'm going to, you don't have to pay this, like I'm going to pay it or it's I'm simply wiping the slate clean like that is the feeling of grace that is um absolutely the best possible news and you can feel your shoulders on not and so that's what I'm after in the book and and giving those examples you know one after another after another after another to kind of make it emotionally real for folks.
[18:32] One of the things that I've been fascinated in reading the book is, you talk a little bit about how great it was, and I can attest to this, growing up before social media, where there's a lot of stuff you could get away with that, in some ways, younger generations just can't. Because it will end up somewhere on social media, or someone will talk about it on social media.
[19:05] And I'm kind of curious, how has that kind of messed up or amplified this sense of, disgrace or not showing grace or forgiveness? Um but also what are some examples of how it might actually help propel grace, because i think sometimes we only think of it in in one way that it's all bad yeah but can it also work the other way oh 100 it's not it's a tool like social media is a tool like anything else and uh just because it's usually used for.
[19:47] Self-aggrandizement or um narcissistic store keeping or something like that doesn't mean that it can't be used for wonderful things um yeah i there's there's something i think that social media and the internet has created a hunger for grace and you it takes less you don't have to convince people as much that the world is a pressure cooker i mean that's one of the things i talk about i try to as a refrain to almost frame this book like the world is a pressure cooker And one of the ways in which it's a pressure cooker, not the only way, but one of the ways is that everything you do is being recorded all the time.
[20:21] And that cannot help but create extra self-consciousness, one false move and I'm dead kind of vibe. You know, there was even, I think, a Saturday Night Live skit this past week of Jon Hamm, a dentist who's afraid he was going to say something silly on television that would go viral. Like, that's what people's lives are like a lot of times.
[20:41] And if it's not, then you just sort of go quiet and you go silent and it becomes a pressure cooker in another way that you never really express yourself, or you're just constantly hiding from the judgment. How does it serve as a vehicle of, like, absolution and forgiveness? Well, I think that you have all sorts of ways in which people who are isolated find each other. I think that there are, I mean, for crying out loud, Mockingbird, one of the things we've tried to pioneer is sort of proclaiming the grace of God online, in a way, because that's where people live. And if that's where they live, you can't simply say, oh, get off of the internet or get off of social media before you can hear about the grace of God. Like, that's not how Jesus worked. That's not how I think we work. And so, to try to be a voice where people actually live. So, I guess I think that contemporary conditions have made things better and worse. And sometimes they've made them better by making them worse, it becomes – you have less of a chance of deluding yourself into thinking that you're not in need of grace. Like, I've always felt that the – I used to have to work harder to convince people that they weren't perfect or that were incapable of it. But I don't think you have to really convince people of that anymore.
[22:08] The thirst, the despair is there. And so, the question is really, how is God going to reach you? And all of a sudden, that can take, you know, virtual roads as well as tangible ones. I still think flesh and blood reality is preferable, and that usually there's no real substitute for an actual church full of living, breathing human beings who, you know, you can tell are just as real as you are, and they're not profiles or personas. But certainly, yeah, I guess what I'm saying is I think it's up to the thirst. It's provided new avenues for communication. And for some people, it's also been the means by which they've found love or acceptance when they wouldn't have found it elsewhere.
[23:09] How do you think the church is doing when it comes to trying to preach grace? And I bring that up because, of course, as we talked a little bit about Sooner as being part of the Iowa Preachers Project, that really has been hitting at home about the importance of preaching the gospel, preaching the good news, preaching grace, and how—I think if there's anything that has—I mean, I know this before, but I have had it kind of hammered into me over the last year is, how much people are hungry for this, and sometimes how much the church doesn't always do that.
[23:49] And sometimes we fall short. But I'm kind of curious in your observations, how has the church, especially in our modern day, really been at communicating that message, or are we sometimes letting other things kind of crowd, get in front of that before we're, you know, imparting grace? Yeah, I mean, it probably comes no surprise that I think the church has largely lost the plot. I mean, it's still, you know, I happen to love the church, and the church has been, has ministered to me in all sorts of unexpected ways, despite its, you know, craziness and dysfunction over the years, so I take this with a grain of salt, but I think that the temptation to get up there and tell people what to do, because there's so much, either because you see people suffering and you know that what they're doing is going to hurt themselves or other people, or you see the world and it's a mess and it's on fire and you want to motivate people to do whatever they can to sort of help their neighbors, but the temptation to get up there and sort of preach the law, which is you must do this or must do that even when it's good stuff and it's usually is good stuff actually um.
[25:06] Is just so strong. And we think that if we don't tell people what to do, nothing's ever going to get better. And so, I empathize with the desire to, because a lot of times it is born out of like, not when you see other folks suffer and seeing the harm, the pain that people are in. But the question is like, what is the church actually for? Is it the place where you go to get instructions and a rule book for living? Or is it a place where you go to hear about the forgiveness and love of God on a sort of a weekly basis? Because every week you're going to be in a different spot and you're going to need to hear it. And you never know who's come to church that week, whether they've just lost a loved one or whether they've just gotten divorce papers served to them. I think you just, the grace of God. But Dennis, I will say that I see, I think it's the great thing that we can
[26:05] add to the conversation that you can't really find elsewhere. You can't get it at brunch and you can't get it in certain other, you know, religious or spiritual traditions. But the places where I do see churches preaching grace rather than partisan politics, which is always a form of what people should do. You know, it's always like, vote this way, think this way, you know, treat, serve this way.
[26:34] But wherever I see the gospel proclaimed, which means like, this is who God is, what God has done for you, even in your inability to do it. Like, I see all sorts of amazing fruit happening. I see churches growing, and I see exciting things happening. So, I do see it around. It's not like universally, but not a bad job. But there's also, you know, we have to admit that, you know, once you're a person who's being looked to for spiritual authority, the temptation to, believe your own hype is very, very strong, and to become, to consolidate your influence, or to get involved in non-essential causes, I think it's just very, it's just extremely tempting. And I've seen it in myself, I know it in myself but if I were to urge if the church had anything what I'm trying to get across to the church is simply like, you know, lean on the grace of God, like just try it, see what happens if you, if you just put the other stuff, as important as it is, on pause, knowing that there are a lot of great non-profits out there there's a lot of great social services out there there's a lot of other good organizations that they're doing probably a better job of other stuff.
[27:52] But can you preach the, you know, the blood of Jesus, you know, that's like, in a way that reaches people where they actually live. Like, I think it's a very, very strong thing. And I do see it happening in some places. But I also see churches that have lost the sort of their nerve, they've lost the kind of convictions, and they're just too scared, because life is so hard. And, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, I will admit that it is a struggle at times and a temptation as a pastor, but I'm reminded of something. I interviewed a pastor, actually, he happens to be the husband of one of the people in the Preacher's Project. And he talked about, I asked him a question of what he was going to preach the Sunday after the election.
[28:41] And he had already planned out this was several months ahead while he was going to preach, which made me very jealous, on a series on the Lord's Prayer. And he then said something that really has hit home to me, and that was the fact that someone could come in to his church that might have voted a different way than he did, who is facing divorce and just hurting. And what they needed at that point was to hear about God's grace and love, not about how bad this other candidate was. And that's what they need at this point. And that has struck home, stuck with me, is that people need to hear that. And it's not to say that those other messages aren't important. I think they're very important. But.
[29:38] If that, there are so many things going on in people's lives, they need to hear that sense of grace and forgiveness because if they don't, they're not going to get it anywhere else in our society.
[29:52] That's everything I would, that's a beautiful way to put it, Dennis. I think there's a premium on the grace of God. Like, I think it's not what you hear everywhere else you go. and do we as it's it's very to me it's my experience of human beings is that everyone is suffering and in pain um and if i can't tell where they're suffering or in pain i just don't know them that well like or i haven't or if they really are telling me everything's great then they're out of touch with themselves or a storm is a coming you know so i have to presume that other that the people in the pews are like me aka they're suffering and in some self-inflicted ways you know they're not like by definite they're not sort of victims they're humans and so um but where the the acute pain that they're feeling has somehow has to be brought to god and um that rarely has to do with national elections um it doesn't mean that the issues and the feelings around national elections are somehow irrelevant. They're not. I just think that the number one thing that's going on with a person is usually something else. And, yeah, before that is sort of dealt with or touched upon or ministered to.
[31:14] Everything else is kind of a clanging gong and will just increase either anger, blame, or self-righteousness. And we have such a beautiful message to convey to a hurting world. And most places you go, you're going to be told you have to do something, be something, say something in order to be loved. And that's not what the church is here to say. It's here to proclaim the forgiveness of sins and the love of God for real people, and honestly, the power of God to transform and to make a difference in people's lives.
[31:53] So, yeah, I always feel like maybe there was a day when we could presume other things about folks, or maybe there was a day when the pressure wasn't so acute, but all I know is today, it feels like I can't miss my chance. If I do have a chance to speak to contemporary people, if I've got 15 minutes every week, I want it to be the most important, unique, uplifting part of the Christian faith. There's plenty of other parts of the Christian faith. There's plenty of other avenues, like, you know, roads you could go down. There's all sorts of contemplation and social service and community and spiritual direction and all these things. But if I have to get – if someone basically says you've got 10 minutes to say what you're going to say with a gun to your head, what is of utmost importance? I want to tell people that God knows them, God forgives them, God loves them, God saves them, and there is hope rather than despair that things can and will turn out all right.
[33:06] It kind of reminds me of the story that you share a little bit, and I've heard the story before about the Lutheran professor, James Nestigan, and being an alum from Luther Seminary and kind of describing him, you pretty much described him to a T. I had to be very careful in how I described him. I was like, how can I do this in a nice way, but also conveys the size of this man. Yes. No, you hit it perfectly. But I think that story of him on a flight and talking to this gentleman who was a Vietnam vet, and really talking about the sense of absolution, and that was something I learned in seminary, kind of that importance of the sense of absolution. And, you know, coming from a background I am and being disciples of Christ, I was always a little weirded out about, well, why should a pastor absolve people of sins or something? But now I kind of understand that a lot more. And it's not necessarily that we are the ones forgiving, but it's the sense of knowing that God forgives and to hear that message and that that matters to people, that they're hungry for it.
[34:33] Is important. I don't know if I would stand up in the middle of a flight as he did, but... I don't think I would, but... I'm not him, so... No, but you're the forgiveness person. You know, I always feel that that's what a pastor is. They're the forgiveness person. They're the person who has to extend an olive branch when no one else does.
[34:55] And they're the place you can go to unload. and that's an incredible privilege and amazing vocation and calling if you see it that way. If you see it as you're like basically there to change the world or to educate people about the woes of society, like that's gonna, you're gonna bang your head against the wall or if you're there to make sure your church gets bigger and more people give money and more people read their Bibles or something like that, you're just gonna start to hate the people you're working with but if you really feel like what you're there for is to be a receptacle on behalf of God or at least a target for absolution, forgiveness, and pointing to the hope of the Holy Spirit and God's work in the world. I think that's a – what else is there? What more lofty and beautiful thing could you possibly do with your life? Yeah. Yeah, and I think sometimes we pastors have lost the plot at times, and I think it's just important to remember what we're about and to trust that those other things that we are concerned about will get done. They're not, you know, going back to what we said earlier, we're not that important. We're not that important. And that's a beautiful thing. That's the beginning of Daryl, by the way. When you say, Daryl, he says, I realize I'm just not that darn important.
[36:18] He then goes on to serve. Like, that's what he does. That's what you do when you've been humbled. You search for, you're on the same level as other people. You can all of a sudden see the needs and concerns of your neighbors and reach out with love rather than patronizing or to use them for some project of your own. Like, you can actually seek to help and to see. I think that's a really, that's why I led with, I mean, I led with that example in that, or I closed that first chapter with that example because, first of all, it's a very personal one for me because it's not something I have to make up. Like Daryl Strawberry was the biggest figure in my life for about 18 to 24 months, like in between 1985 and 1987. But also because I think there's so much hope in that, that he experienced a grace that he didn't ask for or engineer that came to him and that provided a way forward in his life where all he saw were brick walls.
[37:27] And just the fruit of that experience is just never-ending and so beautiful and so exciting for me to see. I actually got... I wondered about that. This is my bobblehead of Daryl Strawberry on the St. Paul Saints that someone gave me. I don't... I mean, I have him up there as a starting lineup figure and a rookie card, but that's... The St. Paul Saints uniform is a special one for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah i remember i actually had just moved to minnesota around the time that he had joined the saints and i remember finding that story just fascinating it's like why is he with the saints.
[38:09] No one else would take him dennis and now i know why but knowing that backstory just it really enriches that that time that he had here in saint paul i think it did change him in many ways yeah, Yeah, St. Paul, it wasn't his first choice. It was the only choice. Yep.
[38:31] So one question that I had I wanted to kind of talk about, and maybe this is something that you have shared in the past, is that preaching is sometimes about...
[38:47] What is also what the pastor needs to hear as much as it is kind of what people out there need to hear so i'm kind of curious when as you were writing this book what was this was it about this book that you needed to hear that made you to write this book well that's a it's wonderful and i think one of the most important questions for any writer is like why did you write this book, what were you trying to say, not just to other people? You're saying it to yourself. And I tried to spell this out in a little essay I wrote about the book, but I've always been a person who's just very hard on himself, a very active inner critic, a very loud voice of not good enough, and inner criticism, internal condemnation, whatever you want to call it. And so, I've always been very attracted and drawn to the message of God's grace that speaks louder than the message of criticism, and that there's a yes that follows all the no's that we tell ourselves. And so, I'm speaking to myself. Like, I live under the law of, you know.
[40:05] Constantly trying to prove and perform and to justify myself by my works, by my achievements, by my, you know, by my children, by my church, you know, all those things, by Mockingbird, by my bank account, though I've failed there. But...
[40:29] So, that's just acute for me. And so, I'm drawn to hearing the message of grace every single week, every single day, because I personally need it. I struggle to believe it, and I want to believe it. And I also know that God has come to me in the form of, always in the form of grace in some form. So, I wanted to basically take what is now 25 years of trying to convey the message of grace to myself and to other people, and the sort of the collection of stories and aphorisms and explanations, and just sort of put it all in one place, so where I could find it.
[41:16] And I also knew if I was going to write another book, it was going to have to be something that was like personally had traction, like that was emotionally present for me and so the message of grace always is. It's always a question of just where. Where is it present for me? I might be doing better in this area but not in that area. But secondly, I think there's a whole lot of despair in the world, a lot of deaths of despair that I notice, and that there's increased since I wrote Seculosity in 2018, 2019, and even since then, not only have we been through COVID, but like, just the rates of suicide, self-harm.
[42:00] Substance, you know, overdose, fentanyl, all that stuff, it just keeps going up and up and up, and for that, partly for that reason, and I'm familiar with the despair. I know what it is to despair. Depression has been my big albatross most of my life, and I know what that's like to live without hope. And the... Aspect of Christianity that has punctured the bubble of despair for me most reliably and.
[42:29] Most sharply has always been the message of God's grace and the experience of God's grace in the midst of my everyday life. So, I was writing against despair in myself, and I was writing against condemnation in myself. And I noticed, you know, over the years, Dennis, like you, I have the privilege of preaching. And I noticed that the closer I got to some of those third rails about myself, they tended to ripple out and people could tell that I had steak, something at stake. And there was something that I really, there's my own need, but my own conviction was at play. And so, I wanted to trust that in print form and to see what I could do along those lines. I mean, I've preached sermons about other topics, or I've talked about God's grace in a different variety of ways, and talked about the theology of the cross, for example, and a lot about suffering, but I noticed that when I got closest to the things that were really going on in me, those were the sermons when I would hear someone said, how did you know? Like, how did you know that I feel that way too. Were you in our bedroom last night?
[43:45] And that's for any writer or any preacher. That's like the jugular. You want to tap that vein, which I did. And so, if I got up there and tried to do an amazing book about, I don't know, reconciliation or mercy ministries or something like that, or something historical or talking about spiritual formation in some kind of beautiful way, like it would have rung a little more hollow because my Enneagram or whatever however you want to put it is much more focused on like the needing for to remain at the the basic level of god's grace that god forgives you um and that no matter what uh there is hope for you so we kind of live in a time especially and we kind of touched on it with politics um, were there just kind of a lot of no grace and very little forgiveness and all of that, and a lot of despair.
[45:04] Kind of in closing, what words do you think as pastors, as other church leaders, how can we witness in a way that says that, you're loved, you're forgiven by God. Maybe we're not going to do it in the same way that Jim Nestican did it, but how do we do that, that we can kind of be missionaries of grace?
[45:41] Well, I think it sort of ties back to the last question. I think you have to find, you have to always be in touch with yourself and where you are struggling to believe, you know, where are you feeling unloved? Where are you trying to prove yourself? Where are you earning something? Or where are you just feeling nothing but rejected and lonely? And a lot of pastors do feel that way. And I think that if that means you need to hear that God loves you even in your failed or failing church or your failing ministry or some sort of mistake that you feel you made that you've never quite recovered from, like, stick with that and preach from that place, if not factually, but then like spiritually and emotionally.
[46:30] So, I think that's the hard work of being a pastor, is staying in touch with your internal life, I think, figuring out where the barometer, what's the barometer, internal grace-o-meter, law-o-meter, what's it reading like right now. And in light of the Scripture, you know, and God's story, like, how do you connect these dots for people? And that's going to be dynamic. It's always going to be slightly different, and it's going to be different for every person too. But if you're not in touch with your own need for the gospel, it's going to be very difficult for you to get in touch with other people's need for the gospel, need for grace, absolution, forgiveness, mercy, rescue, redemption, etc.
[47:17] But if you are in touch, then your ministry, grace is just going to, it's not going to be hard work, you know. I think there's a playfulness, a freedom that I think that God's grace really does allow for that I try to highlight in the book that, what would you say if you weren't afraid, you know, what would you say if like you could say, you know, if you really weren't afraid of some something being taken away or missing out on something uh, And how would you say it? I think it's going to be different for other people. A lot of times, us as preachers, we're trying to imitate the most effective voices we've heard, or we're trying to recreate some way that we used to be. And the burden, the privilege, the challenge of ministry is remaining sort of present tense, because that's where God is. That's where the Spirit is. And I think God answers those prayers too. You just pray, Lord, show me where do I begin? And maybe that's going to therapy. For me, I've had to be in recovery, I've had to be in therapy, I've had to sort of all sorts of, you know, couples therapies, individual therapy, like, I haven't been able to run away from my own proclivities.
[48:37] Toward, you know, criticism and judgment. And so, that's been a huge resource for me. But I also think, you know, just to remind pastors that you got the goods. Like, there's – people are really in pain. They're suffering. The world is a pressure cooker. Have confidence in the message about Jesus Christ. Like, it's not secondary. It's not, you know, antiquated. It's not a relic from another time. It addresses people where they are right now, and where they are right now is totally buckled under the weight of modern life, but also just their own humanity. And just take a risk on the rumor of grace as best you can, and just see what happens.
[49:37] Well, if people wanted to know more, where can they go? Oh, thanks for saying that, Dennis. Also, the new book is The Big Relief, The Urgency of Grace for a Warned Out World. It's available on Amazon, wherever books are sold. You know, buy it. If you like it, leave a review. Those are very helpful these days, or rating, etc. But Mockingbird is where I'm at, usually my destination, my digital home. Certainly, The Mocking Cast is the podcast I do with two friends every couple weeks. I also have one of my brothers called The Brothers Zahl. And yeah, just check out Mockingbird check out The Big Relief, or you can also I'm on Facebook, people can find me there, Well Dave, thank you so much for this time and talking a little bit about Grace and I'm hopeful that this was a good time, for me, helpful to hear this and I hope it will be helpful for people out there listening. Thanks Dennis, it's really great It's really a real honor and privilege to be here with you. Thank you.
[50:44] Music.
[51:13] I am very thankful for Dave taking the time to chat. I hope that you enjoyed the time listening. I have included a link to David Zahl's speech that he made at this year's annual Mockingbird Conference in New York City. And they have an annual conference every year. And the title of the speech is, The Main Thing, Relief at the Heart of Christianity. Interesting side note is that the main thing was actually going to be the title of the book. I hope that you will listen to it. It's kind of a good addendum to our interview. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are about the episode. What are you thinking about when it comes to grace? Feel free to send me an email at churchinmain at substack.com. I'll include links to his book as well as links to the podcast that he is a part of. Um, before I go, I have two updates to share. The first is that during the summer, this podcast will go to an every other week schedule. So that means that the next video is going to come out on June 6th. Um, and we'll go back to a weekly schedule in the fall. Um, the second is that I want to urge you to join the email list. Um, I have an email list. Um, I haven't always, um.
[52:40] Used to kind of promote it as much. I kind of want to promote it more. Um, I used to actually, when this podcast came out, really promote my, the podcast on social media, but that's really not the place to promote the podcast anymore. Um, so, um, if you want to, uh, get the, uh, podcast early, or at least when it immediately comes out, so you don't have to try to hunt for it or wait for it to show up on your podcast app, get on the email list. And so I put a link in the show description and do it while you can. So just sign up today, and that will make sure that you get the episode the minute that this becomes live.
[53:32] Now, if you want to know more about the podcast, if you haven't, you're kind of wondering what is Church in Maine all about, you can go to our website, which is churchandmaine.org. I also have a substack where I write on all things kind of faith and culture that is also called Church in Maine, and you can find that at churchandmaine.substack.com. You can listen on the website, you can listen to past episodes, and you can also donate. You can also donate also on the Substack as well.
[54:10] Also, please consider rating or reviewing the podcast. You can do that wherever you listen to your podcasts. That actually helps others find this podcast. So that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. Again, thank you so much for listening. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Take care, everyone. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.
[54:33] Music.