I speak with Quincy Worthington, pastor of Highland Park Presbyterian Church, about the intersection of faith and immigration amidst ongoing ICE actions in Chicago. Quincy shares his experiences and the role of his church in advocating for immigrant rights, highlighting the fear and challenges faced by families due to enforcement measures. Our conversation emphasizes the need for faith leaders to promote justice and stand in solidarity with marginalized communities, urging listeners to recognize humanity in all individuals.
Chicago pastors confront escalating violence at ICE detention facility- Presbyterian Outlook
We Found That More Than 170 U.S. Citizens Have Been Held by Immigration Agents. (Pro Publica)
How Elite Agents Use High-Risk Military Tactics in Chicago Raids- Wall Street Journal
Jesus is Pilate's Victim- Jason Micheli
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00:00:01 --> 00:00:05 On this episode of Church in Maine, we talk about what's going on in Chicago
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 when it comes to ICE, pastors, and immigration.
00:00:10 --> 00:00:11 That's coming up.
00:00:38 --> 00:00:41 Hello, and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:41 --> 00:00:45 intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:46 --> 00:00:51 My guest today is Quincy Worthington. He's the pastor of Highland Park Presbyterian
00:00:51 --> 00:00:55 Church in Highland Park, Illinois, a suburb just north of Chicago.
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 We're going to be talking about the protests taking
00:00:59 --> 00:01:03 place at the Broadview facility
00:01:03 --> 00:01:10 and how and what's happening with immigration enforcement in Chicago and really
00:01:10 --> 00:01:17 about how this is a harbinger for what might be happening or will what might
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 happen in other major cities.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:28 This is an important conversation. I also hope that you will stick around.
00:01:29 --> 00:01:33 I will have some words to say after the conversation.
00:01:33 --> 00:01:37 But for right now, here is my conversation with Quincy Worthington.
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 Well, Quincy, thank you for taking the time to chat with me today.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:07 I wanted to actually start by learning a little bit about who you are and also
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 about your congregation.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:14 So, know a little bit about your faith journey and then also about Highland Park Presbyterian.
00:02:16 --> 00:02:23 Yeah. Okay. So, my name is Quincy. I'm a Scorpio. I like long walks on the beach.
00:02:28 --> 00:02:33 I turned 45 yesterday, so yesterday was my birthday.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:37 Thank you very much. I'm married and have four kids.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:43 So my faith journey, okay, I guess that's probably the best place to start.
00:02:43 --> 00:02:44 I grew up going to church.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 My parents are very active and involved in the life of the church,
00:02:48 --> 00:02:53 which have been pretty much a lifelong Presbyterian, except for some times where
00:02:53 --> 00:02:56 I flirted with the Episcopalians for a little bit.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:03 I went to Marlboro College, and I originally started studying film there and
00:03:03 --> 00:03:05 had kind of left the church.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:07 It just...
00:03:09 --> 00:03:12 It kind of had ceased to feel relevant to me and there were
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 a lot of questions i had that i didn't feel like the greater
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 church was addressing and i grew up going to
00:03:18 --> 00:03:23 a place called uh the chautauqua institution in chautauqua new york and when
00:03:23 --> 00:03:28 i was 19 i was there the director of the department of religion had taken me
00:03:28 --> 00:03:35 under his wing and um and made sure that i attended and i was actually working the lectures of,
00:03:35 --> 00:03:39 at the time, the Episcopal Bishop of Newark,
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 a man by the name of John Shelby Spong, who passed away a few years ago.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:49 And he got up and gave these series of lectures where he was addressing the
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 very concerns and questions I had.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:56 And I thought, if a bishop in the Episcopal Church can be asking these questions,
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 and there's a place for him in the church, then maybe there's a place for me too.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:06 And so when I went back to college, I I started studying a lot of political
00:04:06 --> 00:04:10 theory because they were reading Aquinas and Spinoza and kind of classic political
00:04:10 --> 00:04:15 theory connects tightly in with theology and then studying theology to the point
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 where we had to write an undergraduate thesis in order to graduate.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:23 The school was very geared towards sending people to graduate studies.
00:04:24 --> 00:04:30 So I ended up doing mine on whether or not religion could still be used as a positive.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 Change in in society like whether
00:04:34 --> 00:04:38 we can still be a social force for good and
00:04:38 --> 00:04:41 at the time i was debating then whether or not i was going to go to law school
00:04:41 --> 00:04:44 and study constitutional law which had become an interest or if i was going
00:04:44 --> 00:04:50 to go on and do um further studies in theology with the hopes of getting a phd
00:04:50 --> 00:04:55 in theology and becoming a professor and uh.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:04 I made the decision to go to seminary. And so I enrolled at Union Presbyterian
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 Seminary in Richmond, Virginia.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:11 At the time, it was called Union Theological Seminary. And so we always joked
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 that they took the theology out of the seminary while we were there,
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 which isn't true. But it just made a funny joke.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:26 And from there, I started serving two small churches in rural Virginia and realized
00:05:26 --> 00:05:31 that I had a much bigger passion for the church, that it seemed a lot less political than the academy,
00:05:31 --> 00:05:38 that I was doing everything I would want to do, and that a PhD wasn't necessary.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:42 And so I found a real heart for serving the church and so graduated from there
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 and became the installed pastor there.
00:05:44 --> 00:05:52 So I graduated in 2009, was ordained in 2010 and then served churches in Ohio.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:55 And then I was in Indiana for eight years and now I've been at Highland Park
00:05:55 --> 00:06:00 Presbyterian for gosh, three and a half years at this point.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:07 And what is Highland Park like? Highland Park is, you know, it's interesting.
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 Shortly after I got here, we had a mass shooting on 4th of July.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:17 And so I've never experienced the congregation or the town really outside of that experience.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:21 But it's a very tight-knit community. It's about 60% Jewish.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:27 Our church, you know, like all churches, maybe not all churches,
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 but like a lot of mainline churches, has been struggling in recent years,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:37 kind of bouncing back from the pandemic with numbers. We're a little bit smaller than we used to be.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:45 But the church generally leans, I think leans fairly progressive.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:51 We do have some conservative members, but they really view themselves as a community
00:06:51 --> 00:06:56 church and that my role is to be a community minister, which is why I really
00:06:56 --> 00:07:01 like it here. They've been very supportive of any work I've done outside of the walls of the church.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04 And, you know, we're kind of...
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 We're finding our way together and exploring what it means to live
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 out scripture and daily life and what it means to be a good neighbor and what
00:07:12 --> 00:07:16 it means to be people of faith here and i sometimes describe it as the island
00:07:16 --> 00:07:20 of misfit toys because we've got a bunch of characters but they are some of
00:07:20 --> 00:07:26 the most loving kind faithful people that i've i've ever had the pleasure of working with.
00:07:28 --> 00:07:33 And we're kind of related to that since it's kind of dealing with the community is,
00:07:34 --> 00:07:42 How is and how does your work with what's been going on in Chicago,
00:07:42 --> 00:07:49 especially with a lot of the protests and some of the involvement with ICE and
00:07:49 --> 00:07:53 some of the other actions taking place,
00:07:54 --> 00:08:01 how has that kind of worked with your being a community pastor?
00:08:04 --> 00:08:09 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. A lot of people want to think that on the North
00:08:09 --> 00:08:13 Shore of Chicago, you have a lot of insular communities that are kind of,
00:08:13 --> 00:08:15 and it is a bit of a bubble here.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:19 However, especially with what's going on with immigration in this country,
00:08:19 --> 00:08:20 it deeply affects this community.
00:08:21 --> 00:08:25 There's a sister town right next to us called Highwood, which has an extremely
00:08:25 --> 00:08:32 high population of immigrants and Hispanic community members.
00:08:32 --> 00:08:36 And there have been real tight relationships formed between people.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:41 And so there has been a great deal of concern about what's going on here.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:48 And when I kind of came out to my church about what was going on,
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 partly because there was going to be a Chicago Tribune article that featured me.
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 So I kind of had to get the cat out of the bag.
00:08:56 --> 00:08:59 The church has been overwhelmingly supportive of it.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:05 I mean, there are a few members who are more conservative politically and don't
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 necessarily agree with what I'm doing.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:16 But I think the main concern isn't so much where we fall on any level of why
00:09:16 --> 00:09:21 immigration laws are enforced or what immigration laws we have,
00:09:21 --> 00:09:26 which is a decent argument to have.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:33 And for me, I've always framed it to them in the way I view it is it's about basic human rights.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:40 It's a humanitarian crisis. My argument isn't so much with the laws.
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 I mean, I have arguments with them. But my main argument right now is with how
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 those laws are enforced and how we're treating people.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:55 And I think people know that, I hope people know that the way in which I'm responding
00:09:55 --> 00:10:00 and encouraging others to respond is out of a stance of faith and about where
00:10:00 --> 00:10:04 Christ would want us and how Christ would want us to respond to this.
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 And I think a lot of people understand that.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:13 And they're very supportive and encouraging and helpful in the work I'm doing,
00:10:14 --> 00:10:18 but have also started doing their own ministries around it, which has been beautiful to watch.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:25 Yeah, I think one of the things, at least looking at it from afar here in Minnesota,
00:10:26 --> 00:10:32 is you can have differing opinions on immigration policy.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:38 I think it's not really the what as much as it is the how.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:42 It's how this is being done and how it's being done is.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:50 Quite disturbing and and i think that's been a that is a problem and i think that,
00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 it's hard for anyone especially at least
00:10:54 --> 00:10:57 from my standpoint that it's a believer to not
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 look at this and not feel that there's something
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 wrong here and or at least that how this is
00:11:03 --> 00:11:08 being carried out is not not just right right
00:11:08 --> 00:11:12 and i try and remind people that i think the protests themselves
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 and how the protesters how we've been
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 treated has taken the spotlight um
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 because of the spectacle of it because it's something you can see
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 out in the open and i keep trying to tell people if
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 they're treating clergy and members of the press and
00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 peaceful protesters this way out in the open
00:11:30 --> 00:11:35 in the middle of daylight with cameras on them what does that say about how
00:11:35 --> 00:11:39 they're treating the people who are detained in that facility what is that saying
00:11:39 --> 00:11:44 about the people they're picking up and throwing in these vans and to keep bringing
00:11:44 --> 00:11:49 us back to why the protests are happening and why they're there.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:58 And that's because everything I've heard, it's one of the most dehumanizing protests.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:03 Projects I've heard of the United States taking on in years.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:08 And to keep people focused on, this is about basic human rights.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:16 Well, can we talk a little bit about what is the Broadview facility? Where is it located?
00:12:17 --> 00:12:21 Because I think in reading the article that I read in Presbyterian Outlook,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:28 at least how it's been described is not how it's really being used.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:33 It's being used in ways that it's far more harsher, it sounds like.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:40 Yeah, so I think its official title is the Broadview Processing Center.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:47 It's located at 1930 Beach Street in Broadview, Illinois, which is a town just west of the city.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:51 It's actually located right between O'Hare and Midway Airports. Okay.
00:12:52 --> 00:12:57 The reason why it's called a processing facility is because some years ago,
00:12:57 --> 00:13:02 Illinois passed a law that we're not allowed to have detention centers in the state of Illinois.
00:13:02 --> 00:13:06 And the law states that people – that means that people are allowed to be processed
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 through there before being deported.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:13 So the main goal was – the objective was if they –,
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 apprehended somebody who was here illegally that they would be brought into
00:13:17 --> 00:13:22 they'd be taken to broadview processed through there within 12 hours and then
00:13:22 --> 00:13:26 from there either move to another facility,
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 where they could be detained out of state or they would then be deported you
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 know to their home country so the facility is not set up to hold people um even
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 short term and by illinois state law is not allowed to hold people there.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:46 But we have reports of people who've been there for weeks on end.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:51 And I have seen people come in on one Friday and leave the next Friday.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:55 And so what that means is that, I don't know if this has changed now,
00:13:55 --> 00:13:59 but as of a few weeks ago, there weren't any beds there. People were sleeping on floors.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:06 It's set up to have an occupancy of 199, just under 200.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:13 We've heard of stories of over 250 men in one room, and that's not including
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 where the women are kept or anybody else.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:21 There's lack of basic hygiene. There aren't facilities there for them to shower.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:26 There's no cooking facilities there. We've heard that they're fed one meal a day.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 Somebody told me with Subway sandwiches. I don't know how true that is.
00:14:31 --> 00:14:35 I mean, I've seen, I could tell you and the people I've seen come in one day
00:14:35 --> 00:14:39 and leave the week later, they were in the same clothes that they arrived in.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:45 We've heard that there's no central air in there. So these men are crammed in
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 this room in just insufferable conditions.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:53 And most of that, you know, we're getting from people who have either finally
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 been deported and have called back to their family and their families told us
00:14:56 --> 00:15:00 about it or from protesters who've been arrested outside the facility for peacefully
00:15:00 --> 00:15:05 protesting and brought inside and their experiences in there.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:15 Have there been experiences where, and I probably should prefer this to say
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 that this doesn't excuse anything, but where,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:24 because I've always heard these stories where people who have been citizens
00:15:24 --> 00:15:28 end up getting caught in these sweeps just because,
00:15:29 --> 00:15:34 of course, they either speak Spanish or they look, you know,
00:15:34 --> 00:15:35 because they're brown or whatever.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:40 I mean, has that been the case and they end up in Broadview and all of that?
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 I mean, has that happened as well?
00:15:44 --> 00:15:48 Yeah, we've heard of several cases of that. I think the last number I heard
00:15:48 --> 00:15:55 was over 130 United States citizens have been detained, some abducted right off the street.
00:15:57 --> 00:16:02 It's interesting. I saw an interview with Greg Bovino where the interviewer
00:16:02 --> 00:16:08 was saying, what if somebody is brown and speaks Spanish and you guys come up to detain them?
00:16:09 --> 00:16:13 And he said, well, you know, if they're here as legal immigrants,
00:16:13 --> 00:16:15 they need to have their immigration papers on them.
00:16:15 --> 00:16:19 And the interviewer said, well, what if they're United States citizens?
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 Do they need to have papers on them then? And he said, no, there's no law requiring
00:16:22 --> 00:16:27 them to be United States citizens. So, well, you know, or to carry papers,
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 like we don't have to carry our passport as U.S. citizens.
00:16:30 --> 00:16:34 He said, so what happens if somebody says I'm an American citizen and therefore
00:16:34 --> 00:16:35 they don't have papers on them?
00:16:35 --> 00:16:39 And there was just a bunch of, he said, well, they should have their papers
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 on them. So we don't have to have your papers if you're a United States citizen.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:46 So they're in the situation where if they're not an immigrant,
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 you know, if they're not here through the immigration process and they're a
00:16:50 --> 00:16:54 United States citizen, They are not legally required to carry anything that
00:16:54 --> 00:16:55 proves their citizenship.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 But if ICE stops them and they can't prove the United States citizenship,
00:17:00 --> 00:17:05 then they're abducted and taken into the facility until they can somehow prove
00:17:05 --> 00:17:06 they're United States citizens.
00:17:08 --> 00:17:13 So it's a big catch-22 of like, what are these people supposed to do?
00:17:15 --> 00:17:16 It's awful.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:23 So, I mean, what is that kind of, I mean, with all of this that has been going on,
00:17:23 --> 00:17:31 and I think one of the things that many of us have heard is the case of the
00:17:31 --> 00:17:34 apartment building a while back in Chicago,
00:17:34 --> 00:17:39 and the story of the Black Hawk helicopters and all that.
00:17:41 --> 00:17:47 And I think there were stories of zip ties. And I mean, it was just horrific stories.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:56 I mean, what has life been like in Chicago for people, especially in immigrant
00:17:56 --> 00:18:01 communities, having to kind of live like this?
00:18:02 --> 00:18:03 Yeah, people are really scared.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:12 I know churches and organizations who are collecting food and delivering it
00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 to families because they're too afraid to leave their houses.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:23 The stores in those communities, the foot traffic to them is way down.
00:18:23 --> 00:18:27 It's hard to find people to work jobs. People are not going to work.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:28 Kids are staying home from school.
00:18:29 --> 00:18:33 People aren't going to medical appointments they need to go to. So there's a...
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 There's just this culture of fear right now. And I'll tell you,
00:18:41 --> 00:18:47 I've never felt scared going to downtown Chicago until this happened.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:57 But that's the ugly part of it. The beautiful part of it is the way that people
00:18:57 --> 00:19:01 in Chicago are stepping up to help people, to support communities,
00:19:01 --> 00:19:08 to join rapid response teams, to bring food to people, to protect their neighbors
00:19:08 --> 00:19:09 as much as they possibly can.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:19 And the way this city has stepped up and held its own and protected its own
00:19:19 --> 00:19:23 neighbors and families has been beautiful and for the most part has been extremely
00:19:23 --> 00:19:29 peaceful when it seems like they've tried to do everything they can to antagonize us to be violent.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:32 Um so you know
00:19:32 --> 00:19:36 as horrific as things are when you
00:19:36 --> 00:19:39 when you see how people are responding it's it's amazingly
00:19:39 --> 00:19:44 beautiful like when i started going to broadview at the beginning of september
00:19:44 --> 00:19:50 it was pre the media pre any of the the the kind of circus going on around it
00:19:50 --> 00:19:56 and there were three or three other clergy that i can distinctly remember being
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 there on the ground with me,
00:19:58 --> 00:20:05 now when you go to the protests at broadview i mean the faith community has stepped up in ways.
00:20:06 --> 00:20:12 You can't even imagine i mean it it really feels like the clergy and the faith
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 leaders are really stepping forward to help lead the charge and take on risk
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 of themselves and have really put their foot down and said enough is enough
00:20:20 --> 00:20:24 and this is antithetical to everything we read in the gospel and everything
00:20:24 --> 00:20:25 we believe Jesus is standing for.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:29 And that's just been...
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 Overwhelmingly beautiful to see and encouraging and hopeful.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:41 And I think, I hope that, well, I know because people tell me that seeing clergy
00:20:41 --> 00:20:49 on the ground in solidarity with them is, it gives them hope and gives them encouragement.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:52 And I can't tell you how many people I've had come up to me and say,
00:20:53 --> 00:20:54 you know, I'm no longer religious.
00:20:54 --> 00:20:59 I'm not really a quote unquote faithful person, but seeing you here helps restore
00:20:59 --> 00:21:05 my faith and helps me feel like maybe there's something to God and maybe God's on our side.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:14 So as much as we can focus on the ugly and the paranoia and how scared people are,
00:21:14 --> 00:21:21 there's been just amazing examples of courage by ordinary everyday people who
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 have just said, this is enough and I'm going to love my neighbor regardless
00:21:24 --> 00:21:28 of who they are or what their status is and i'm going to do everything i can to protect them.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:40 You know, one of the kind of enduring images that we've seen is the image of, you know,
00:21:41 --> 00:21:51 one of your fellow Presbyterians, David Black, being basically assaulted by another,
00:21:52 --> 00:21:58 I guess it was someone from ICE or another, a guard or someone.
00:21:58 --> 00:22:07 And I'm curious, has that been something that has happened a lot with other agents that have,
00:22:07 --> 00:22:13 have they done that or used pepper spray or other things like that with other pastors, other clergy?
00:22:13 --> 00:22:19 Is that something that is common? And why is that being done?
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25 Your guess is as good as mine as to why.
00:22:25 --> 00:22:28 Uh yeah so i was about 10
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31 feet 10 20 feet away from david when that happened we
00:22:31 --> 00:22:35 had arrived there together um i don't
00:22:35 --> 00:22:40 think you could find anybody who was there at broadview in the month of september
00:22:40 --> 00:22:45 who hadn't been exposed to at least tear gas most of us have been shot with
00:22:45 --> 00:22:50 pepper balls a lot of us have been shot with rubber bullets or foam bullets
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 um they've used flash bangs.
00:22:54 --> 00:22:58 Sometimes at first it seemed like they were doing it in order to make sure that
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 their vehicles could get in and out of the facility.
00:23:02 --> 00:23:07 Then it seemed like I don't know, they just got bored and they just didn't want
00:23:07 --> 00:23:09 us there. And so they figured that,
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 Dousing us in pepper spray and tear gas was a way to get us to leave, which didn't work.
00:23:16 --> 00:23:22 But yeah, and then in October, David was a part of a lawsuit with members of
00:23:22 --> 00:23:26 the media who'd been shot with pepper balls and exposed to tear gas.
00:23:26 --> 00:23:30 I think it was put on by the ACLU. You might need to fact check that.
00:23:31 --> 00:23:36 And so now there's been a temporary restraining order from them using chemical munitions.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 They haven't at Broadview since that's been passed.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 However, they have been using it out in the city and the neighborhoods when
00:23:44 --> 00:23:45 they're making their abductions.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:52 And they've been pulled into court several times from violating the judge's order.
00:23:53 --> 00:24:00 But since October, the Illinois State Police have essentially been running security for them.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 So what happened was in September while we were there,
00:24:03 --> 00:24:11 there were 85 to 100 ICE officers at that location, and 40 to 50 of them would
00:24:11 --> 00:24:16 be essentially stationed at the station to protect them.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:24 The facility from peaceful protesters and so operations for them slowed way down.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:30 Then illinois state police came in you get conflicting reports as to why that
00:24:30 --> 00:24:35 is governor pritzker is making the argument that that's what's helping keeping the national guard out,
00:24:36 --> 00:24:42 but since illinois state police has been running crowd control essentially that's
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 allowed ice to operate freely in and out of that facility and hasn't tied up their officers.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:52 So we've seen a spike in abduction since October, since Pritzker's police have
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 kind of taken over security. I've seen them.
00:24:56 --> 00:25:04 A dear friend of mine who is a Methodist minister was arrested for no reason,
00:25:04 --> 00:25:09 no discernible reason whatsoever at Broadview a few weeks ago by the Illinois State Police.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 They haven't used chemical munitions they've threatened to, but they mainly
00:25:13 --> 00:25:17 use batons and physical violence against the protesters.
00:25:19 --> 00:25:27 So, it's a little bit of a different flavor, but still kind of the same sandwich you're taking a bite of.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:34 And it's fascinating that the situation there from week to week is just very different.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:38 Very different every week. So you never know what you're walking into when you
00:25:38 --> 00:25:41 go to a protest at Proudview. Yeah. Hmm.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:47 What do you think will be the situation going forward?
00:25:47 --> 00:25:52 Do you think, has there been any change in the last week or two?
00:25:52 --> 00:25:56 And do you know if, I mean, you've talked about, you know, the state police coming in.
00:25:57 --> 00:25:59 Do you see any changes moving forward?
00:26:05 --> 00:26:12 This is all speculation but if evidence bears it out I think the more pressure
00:26:12 --> 00:26:16 gets put on ICE and Border Patrol the more they've been ramping up operations,
00:26:16 --> 00:26:21 and so with Bovino being pulled into court this week we're kind of fully expecting
00:26:21 --> 00:26:27 to see operations ramp up even harsher, more violent as they attempt to punish
00:26:27 --> 00:26:28 the city is what it feels like,
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31 for protecting their own,
00:26:32 --> 00:26:37 I can't hope but speculate that if what the Trump administration is trying to
00:26:37 --> 00:26:43 do is to essentially test out tactics on Chicago and then try and find other
00:26:43 --> 00:26:48 cities in order to elicit a response that they feel will give them enough ammunition
00:26:48 --> 00:26:51 to enact the Insurrection Act and release the National Guard.
00:26:52 --> 00:26:56 So one of the arguments I've had with people in the Pritzker administration
00:26:56 --> 00:27:00 is it's not a matter of if the National Guard gets deployed, it's a matter of when.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:06 And when that happens, I have no idea what that's going to look like or what's going to happen.
00:27:07 --> 00:27:15 Like I said, the situation here changes at Broadview every week in the city almost day by day.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:22 And so I've kind of given up trying to figure out what to expect or what to anticipate.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:26 And you kind of just have to take one day at a time and one moment at a time.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:35 Well, you already answered the question I was going to ask is if what's happening
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 in Chicago is a test run for other cities.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:48 That was actually last week, actually, Kristi Noem was here in the Twin Cities.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:57 And so there were protests here. And so there's always chatter of when that will happen here.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:03 And I have no idea if it will. It probably will at some point.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:07 So you're always kind of wondering when the other shoe will drop.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:13 Right, and I think that's a thing that people need to be aware of is that they
00:28:13 --> 00:28:18 need to prepare as if this is going to happen because the odds are it most likely will.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 I mean, I never thought I would live to see something like this in my lifetime
00:28:23 --> 00:28:27 in a city that I lived in, and it's abhorrent.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:32 There's no other way to put it. It's infuriating and heartbreaking and abhorrent.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:42 So how do you... Let's kind of look at this actually from a spiritual standpoint.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:48 How do you help or kind of keep yourself sane spiritually?
00:28:48 --> 00:28:54 I mean, what spiritual practices do you do to kind of help yourself in these
00:28:54 --> 00:28:58 times? And that has to be an important question to ask in this. Yeah.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:07 Yeah, one is like, when this first started ramping up, I've always had a heart for theology.
00:29:07 --> 00:29:13 I think theology is kind of what led me to the Bible and not the other way around.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:19 We can discuss whether or not that's a good idea. But, so like one of the questions
00:29:19 --> 00:29:23 I had was like, man, there have got to be theologians that have lived through
00:29:23 --> 00:29:24 this before or something similar, right?
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28 And how are they writing about it? How are they talking about it?
00:29:28 --> 00:29:32 And the obvious answer is to turn to somebody like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, right?
00:29:33 --> 00:29:38 Who's just a powerhouse. And I actually just took it off, but I have a sweatshirt
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40 I was wearing today that a friend got me for my birthday that said,
00:29:41 --> 00:29:42 you know, Bart is my homeboy.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:46 And it's got a picture of Karl Bart on it. But, and those two guys,
00:29:46 --> 00:29:52 their theology and Tillich and Niebuhr, like their theology is all coming out of this kind of era.
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 You know, Niebuhr and Tillich spill, well, Niebuhr, Tillich,
00:29:56 --> 00:30:01 and Barth all spill into the civil rights movement and are huge influences on
00:30:01 --> 00:30:02 Dr. King's thinking, right?
00:30:02 --> 00:30:07 So reading that, like reading Bonhoeffer now, I'm kind of slowly working my
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09 way back through the cost of discipleship.
00:30:09 --> 00:30:17 Um reading him now after experiencing what i've experienced he just hits so
00:30:17 --> 00:30:22 much harder um and it just resonates so much deeper with me and and fills me
00:30:22 --> 00:30:28 with such hope and faith um i've obviously like like i uh.
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 It's funny, I was talking to David actually the other night,
00:30:33 --> 00:30:36 and that's another thing I do is I talk to other clergy who are going through
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 this with me, and we support each other and rely on each other and pray for
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42 each other, and that's been huge.
00:30:43 --> 00:30:47 But I was talking to David about it. And I said, the thing that really shocks
00:30:47 --> 00:30:54 me about all of this is as much as I feel like I've been struggling emotionally
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 with this, psychologically with this,
00:30:58 --> 00:31:05 physically with this, my faith has never been stronger.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:10 And I find myself being so much more deeply rooted in scripture.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:16 And my prayer life has become so much richer because of what's going on.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:24 I've really developed an absolute dependence on God.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:31 And it's been incredible. And at the beginning of this, when things were really
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 bad and we were really being brutalized by ICE at Broadview,
00:31:34 --> 00:31:38 it was shortly after Charlie Kirk had been assassinated.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:45 And I was thinking about that, and I thought, if I were to be killed—.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:54 There would be some talk about it. In a few years, people would kind of remember me.
00:31:54 --> 00:32:02 In about 10 to 20 years, most people besides my very close friends and family would forget about me.
00:32:02 --> 00:32:06 And then within a generation, I'd essentially be gone.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:12 And in the grand scheme of things, my life doesn't really mean much, right?
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 Which can sound kind of depressing and nihilistic. But I thought,
00:32:15 --> 00:32:18 if my life doesn't mean much,
00:32:18 --> 00:32:25 then what if I just put everything into God's hands and do what I think God
00:32:25 --> 00:32:28 wants to do for my life, despite the risk?
00:32:29 --> 00:32:35 And in that way, at least my life means something to me and might make some
00:32:35 --> 00:32:36 difference in this world before I die.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:42 Not so I matter, but so the world is better and reflects more of God's kingdom.
00:32:42 --> 00:32:49 Him and then i read him bonhoeffer where he said every call from christ is a call to die,
00:32:50 --> 00:32:55 and it might not be a physical death but it's a death to your own wants your
00:32:55 --> 00:33:02 own desires your own dreams in life to to leave all that behind to follow christ.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:06 And so,
00:33:08 --> 00:33:14 So I think the reason why my faith is so strong right now and where I find the
00:33:14 --> 00:33:23 hope is that I desperately want to walk with Jesus and stand with Jesus.
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 And every time I go to Broadview,
00:33:30 --> 00:33:37 I feel that presence so much clearer. And I feel like that's where Jesus is standing.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 And that's where Jesus wants me to stand.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:49 And so I go every week, sometimes multiple weeks, even when it feels futile
00:33:49 --> 00:33:53 sometimes, because that's where my faith takes me.
00:33:54 --> 00:33:59 And if I'm going to stand up in a pulpit and preach the gospel of Christ with
00:33:59 --> 00:34:00 any amount of integrity.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:08 I feel like I have to go where Jesus wants me to go and do what Jesus wants me to do. And so I go.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 And I don't know, it weirds me out. Some people call me brave.
00:34:14 --> 00:34:19 I think I'm incredibly stupid because I didn't really calculate the risks while I'm going.
00:34:19 --> 00:34:23 I just kind of went there and then was like, oh no, this is bad.
00:34:23 --> 00:34:25 And then kept going back for some reason.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:31 But I'm just some guy, you know, and like, I'm not a brave person.
00:34:31 --> 00:34:33 I'm not a particularly courageous person. You can ask my mother.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:38 I've never enjoyed being hurt or getting hurt, and I've tried to avoid it at
00:34:38 --> 00:34:40 all costs for most of my life.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:48 But I just want to follow Jesus, and I just want to live how he wants me to live.
00:34:50 --> 00:34:53 And uh i i
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 think up until now the idea of uh
00:34:56 --> 00:34:59 suffering for your faith or picking up your cross and
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 following him or uh you know
00:35:02 --> 00:35:06 the potential that you might die because of your christian conviction
00:35:06 --> 00:35:09 i mean it's always sounded good in theory and something i could agree on in
00:35:09 --> 00:35:16 theory but as a middle-class straight white man in america that's always kind
00:35:16 --> 00:35:20 of just been a theoretical question that I can kind of sign on to and then applaud
00:35:20 --> 00:35:24 the people that really live out that risk because there wasn't much threat to me.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:40 That's changed now. And, you know, like there's something about knowing that
00:35:40 --> 00:35:42 you're willing to die for your faith,
00:35:43 --> 00:35:54 or to risk your safety for what you feel Christ is calling you to do that, I don't know.
00:35:56 --> 00:36:02 It might sound sick or sadistic or masochistic maybe, but there's something
00:36:02 --> 00:36:04 really fulfilling about it.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:10 And to know that Jesus doesn't theoretically lay claim to my heart and my life,
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 he does in a very real sense.
00:36:17 --> 00:36:23 And i i don't know i mean i i hope that inspires others to to walk the walk
00:36:23 --> 00:36:29 too and to find hope and that uh you know our faith really does make a difference
00:36:29 --> 00:36:32 it really does change lives,
00:36:32 --> 00:36:39 it really does call us into something better that's worth fighting for and so
00:36:39 --> 00:36:43 i i feel like uh we've been handed a choice about what kind of world we want
00:36:43 --> 00:36:50 to live in We can either support the empire or we can try and build God's kingdom.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 And unfortunately, ever since Christ was born into this world,
00:36:56 --> 00:37:01 empire and God's kingdom have seemed to have been at odds with each other.
00:37:01 --> 00:37:11 And I choose God's kingdom where people are humanized and people are loved and
00:37:11 --> 00:37:18 people are treated with grace and basic respect even people who have broken the law even people who,
00:37:19 --> 00:37:23 may have crossed some imaginary border that we put on the ground.
00:37:26 --> 00:37:31 These are civil misdemeanors They're not even criminal charges.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 So when people say these people are criminals, that's legally wrong.
00:37:37 --> 00:37:45 But even if they were, we have a man with 34 felonies sitting in the White House right now.
00:37:47 --> 00:37:50 And I wouldn't want him to be locked up in Broadview either.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:54 The conditions are that bad. I wouldn't wish that upon anybody.
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 And I think the question we have to face now as a country and
00:37:57 --> 00:38:01 as people of faith is are we going to allow
00:38:01 --> 00:38:05 people to be dehumanized and treated worse than cattle in this country by our
00:38:05 --> 00:38:10 own government in our name and for me as a Christian and as an American the
00:38:10 --> 00:38:14 answer to that is no I don't want that for this country I don't want to live
00:38:14 --> 00:38:19 in that country I don't want my kids to grow up in that country and so we fight for God's kingdom.
00:38:24 --> 00:38:29 What do you think that the church should be doing moving forward?
00:38:31 --> 00:38:37 I think at very minimum, what the church needs to do is speak up very loudly,
00:38:37 --> 00:38:45 very clearly, and very plainly and denounce Christian nationalism and show people
00:38:45 --> 00:38:50 that there is a different version of Christianity that is far closer to what
00:38:50 --> 00:38:51 Christ intended with the Gospels.
00:38:51 --> 00:38:58 I think that's the first thing the church needs to do is to stand up and say, not in my name.
00:38:58 --> 00:39:01 When you watch these videos that the Department of Homeland Security put out
00:39:01 --> 00:39:06 of that raid on that apartment building in the south side, they ended up by
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 quoting scripture, which is one of the most abhorrent and egregious uses of
00:39:09 --> 00:39:12 scripture I've ever seen in my entire life.
00:39:12 --> 00:39:20 To use scripture to promote domination and dehumanization of people is about
00:39:20 --> 00:39:24 the most antithetical thing to Christianity that I can possibly imagine.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:29 And so I think we need to be very clear and speak up very loudly and not mince
00:39:29 --> 00:39:36 our words that scripture is not to be used that way and that Christians do not
00:39:36 --> 00:39:38 behave and support that kind of activity.
00:39:38 --> 00:39:42 From there I think that um.
00:39:44 --> 00:39:45 Depending on where in the country
00:39:45 --> 00:39:48 you are, there's going to be plenty of opportunities to get involved.
00:39:48 --> 00:39:54 If you're in the Chicago area, I would say help support rapid response teams.
00:39:55 --> 00:40:01 There are several places to donate to legal funds and to places that are trying
00:40:01 --> 00:40:04 to support immigrants who are scared right now.
00:40:04 --> 00:40:08 So there are plenty of organizations to get sewn into that. If you want to hit
00:40:08 --> 00:40:12 me up, I will give you the name of a few I know that are very, very good at that.
00:40:13 --> 00:40:20 If you are in other places in the country where maybe this isn't affecting you
00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 directly, but you want to get involved, I think you can also support those organizations.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:28 I've never been one to downplay the power of prayer.
00:40:29 --> 00:40:34 I don't think we can rely on prayer alone, but I know from people praying for
00:40:34 --> 00:40:38 me and letting me know that it personally means the world to me.
00:40:38 --> 00:40:41 And I think God hears those prayers and we certainly feel them.
00:40:42 --> 00:40:44 So at minimum, pray.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:52 I think prepare yourselves, prepare your towns and reach out to the immigrant
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55 communities in your town and the minority communities in your town,
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 because I can guarantee you that even if it hasn't taken place there yet,
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01 if ICE isn't operating there yet,
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04 those people are scared and they need to know that they have friends.
00:41:04 --> 00:41:07 They need to know that they have people who are looking out for them and caring
00:41:07 --> 00:41:09 for them and are there to support them.
00:41:09 --> 00:41:15 And so I would highly recommend reaching out to any immigrant or minority community
00:41:15 --> 00:41:21 in your area and seeing how you can build bridges and relationships with them now.
00:41:21 --> 00:41:24 So, you know, if you're...
00:41:25 --> 00:41:30 Let's be honest, most mainline Protestant, especially Presbyterian churches,
00:41:31 --> 00:41:37 look more like me, build relationships with Hispanic churches.
00:41:37 --> 00:41:41 Go to iglesias, build partnerships with them so those relationships are formed
00:41:41 --> 00:41:44 and strong in case there is a crisis.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:48 And if it never happens for some reason, dude,
00:41:48 --> 00:41:53 you've just built an amazing ecumenical relationship with a community that's
00:41:53 --> 00:41:57 going to enrich your faith and you're going to learn about a different way of
00:41:57 --> 00:42:00 viewing the gospel than maybe you'd considered in a different perspective,
00:42:00 --> 00:42:01 and it's only going to be good.
00:42:02 --> 00:42:06 And so I really think, I mean, that's what I've learned from Chicago in the
00:42:06 --> 00:42:11 past two months is like, what's going to save us, what's going to get us through
00:42:11 --> 00:42:13 this as a country is community.
00:42:13 --> 00:42:18 And the more we can strengthen our communities, the more we can build relationships
00:42:18 --> 00:42:23 with people that don't look like us so that we don't necessarily understand.
00:42:23 --> 00:42:27 And the more we can support each other and lean on each other,
00:42:29 --> 00:42:34 the better we're going to be, not only through crises like the ones we're facing
00:42:34 --> 00:42:37 now, but just as a nation in general.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:47 Well Quincy thank you for this episode this is this has been helpful um I hope
00:42:47 --> 00:42:51 to have you back because this was good and maybe to have an update about what's
00:42:51 --> 00:42:55 been going on um because as you
00:42:55 --> 00:43:01 said I this isn't over and unfortunately I think this is just beginning.
00:43:04 --> 00:43:07 As you said yeah I think we're we're all preparing this you
00:43:07 --> 00:43:10 know we said what that we thought was going to be a sprint has now turned into
00:43:10 --> 00:43:13 a marathon and thank you so much for having me i hope i feel like
00:43:13 --> 00:43:16 i rambled but i would be more than happy to come
00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 on anytime dennis this was fantastic no it's
00:43:19 --> 00:43:25 no problem i i do want to add one thing one thing i i did notice is that you
00:43:25 --> 00:43:32 had a a note um to your congregation it was actually kind of a in a sermon um
00:43:32 --> 00:43:38 and i think You wrote something kind of explaining why you were doing what you were doing,
00:43:38 --> 00:43:43 knowing that there were some in your congregation that may not always agree.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:50 And I think it was done with a lot of grace. And I think we live in an era where
00:43:50 --> 00:43:53 there's so much kind of division, where we don't always agree,
00:43:53 --> 00:43:58 and how we handle disagreement is not always well.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01 And I think it was handled with a lot of grace.
00:44:02 --> 00:44:08 I don't know how it was received, but I think how you handled it with a lot of grace.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:13 And I just wanted to bring that up and share that.
00:44:14 --> 00:44:16 Yeah, thanks. Thanks.
00:44:17 --> 00:44:21 Yeah, it was received fairly well. I mean, they still disagree with me.
00:44:21 --> 00:44:26 But, you know, I think that's the thing we've lost the ability to have true
00:44:26 --> 00:44:30 argument and discussion around these things without demonizing the other side.
00:44:30 --> 00:44:34 And I don't see anywhere where Jesus wants us to demonize people.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:37 Nope. It's okay to disagree.
00:44:37 --> 00:44:40 You know, you're not always going to agree with one another.
00:44:42 --> 00:44:46 In fact, it's not the end of the world. I would say so. I agree.
00:44:46 --> 00:44:49 I agree. All right. Well, thank you so much.
00:44:50 --> 00:44:52 Thank you so much, Dennis. All right.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:31 So, one of my favorite podcasts to listen to is a podcast called Tangle.
00:45:31 --> 00:45:32 Maybe you've listened to it too.
00:45:34 --> 00:45:38 It's run by Isaac Saul. He's a journalist.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:43 And if you haven't listened to it, you should.
00:45:44 --> 00:45:49 One of the things that he likes to do is he, along with other journalists,
00:45:49 --> 00:45:53 usually does things where he gathers things from different perspectives.
00:45:54 --> 00:45:58 Usually, it's focusing on one issue, gathering things from different perspectives,
00:45:58 --> 00:45:59 and then he does something.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:04 Usually, it's him, but it can be another journalist where it's his take on an issue.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:13 And this portion of the podcast for this episode is kind of my take on something.
00:46:14 --> 00:46:21 I don't always do this. I try to not do this. I want to let the guest really speak.
00:46:22 --> 00:46:30 And you know I used to do that a lot with with in the past with solo episodes and I haven't as much,
00:46:32 --> 00:46:39 and I really want to let guests kind of say more but every so often I feel like
00:46:39 --> 00:46:45 I want to say something and this is one of those times I do want to say something.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:54 Um and i think it's the thing is that immigration is a complex issue,
00:46:55 --> 00:47:01 i'm probably like a lot of americans that i'm probably in the middle when it comes to immigration,
00:47:01 --> 00:47:07 i think that immigration is important to america it's i'm one of those people
00:47:07 --> 00:47:12 that believe in that cliche that we're a nation of immigrants but i also want
00:47:12 --> 00:47:14 to see the enforcement of immigration laws,
00:47:15 --> 00:47:24 I also want to see our government kind of work out an immigration policy,
00:47:24 --> 00:47:27 which we have not had for quite some time.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:34 When it comes to enforcement, what matters is not...
00:47:37 --> 00:47:41 The why, but it's the how. How it happens matters.
00:47:42 --> 00:47:49 And in my view, what's happening right now, what we're seeing in Chicago and
00:47:49 --> 00:47:57 in places like New York or in the Bay Area or in Los Angeles is bad.
00:47:57 --> 00:48:05 I think it's un-American, but I think more importantly, to me, it's unchristian.
00:48:07 --> 00:48:12 Jason Michele, who is a Methodist pastor, he was a recent guest on this podcast,
00:48:12 --> 00:48:17 wrote recently about the photo of Elian Gonzalez.
00:48:18 --> 00:48:24 And you remember that photo, the photo of Elian when he was very young,
00:48:24 --> 00:48:29 and he had that incredibly frightened look as an immigration officer points
00:48:29 --> 00:48:31 a gun at him and a family member.
00:48:32 --> 00:48:35 Um, Michele noted something about that photo.
00:48:36 --> 00:48:40 The official that was pointing that gun was not masked.
00:48:41 --> 00:48:45 We all saw that man's face. We all knew who he was.
00:48:45 --> 00:48:49 We may have not known his name, but we knew him. We saw him.
00:48:51 --> 00:48:56 Conservatives, rightly in my view, were upset at how Elian was treated.
00:48:57 --> 00:49:01 But as Jason notes, 25 years later,
00:49:02 --> 00:49:08 conservatives, for some reason, don't seem so fazed that now immigration agents,
00:49:09 --> 00:49:15 ICE agents, are now doing some of the same things, but they wear masks.
00:49:16 --> 00:49:25 And he's upset because he believes that, as he says, quote,
00:49:26 --> 00:49:32 Christians should oppose the practice of masked law enforcement, unquote.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:40 And he says that this is a theological problem. It's a theological concern,
00:49:40 --> 00:49:42 even more than a political concern.
00:49:44 --> 00:49:51 It's not incidental that we all, whenever we, you know,
00:49:51 --> 00:50:00 say in our creeds, especially the Apostles' Creed, we name the villain.
00:50:02 --> 00:50:09 The villain is Pilate. We name the guy who sentences Jesus to death.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:18 And he says, continuing about our current context, quote, No matter the merits
00:50:18 --> 00:50:20 of their particular assignments,
00:50:20 --> 00:50:26 mass ICE agents embody a chilling paradox of the modern state,
00:50:26 --> 00:50:33 power that insists on its lawfulness while concealing its actors.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:41 To be apprehended by someone whose face you cannot see is to experience the authority of the state,
00:50:41 --> 00:50:49 without any human referent, to suffer shame and violence that cannot be named because it has no name.
00:50:50 --> 00:50:58 From the beginning, the Church held that naming such names was part and parcel
00:50:58 --> 00:51:01 with the gospel. Unquote.
00:51:31 --> 00:51:38 There is nothing of God in law enforcement that has its face hidden.
00:51:39 --> 00:51:43 The whole intent is to instill fear.
00:51:45 --> 00:51:51 And what's happening now is not just happening to people who are here illegally.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:55 This is also happening to American citizens.
00:51:56 --> 00:52:04 ProPublica reports that at least 170 Americans have been held by immigration agents.
00:52:05 --> 00:52:10 There are more and more stories of immigration agents going after anyone who
00:52:10 --> 00:52:14 looks Latino, assuming that they must be undocumented.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:25 As Quincy noted in the interview, what's happening in Chicago is a template.
00:52:27 --> 00:52:32 This is a shakedown. This is a shakedown for what's going to happen in other
00:52:32 --> 00:52:35 cities in the very near future.
00:52:37 --> 00:52:41 A few weeks ago, Kristi Noem, who is the Secretary for Homeland Security,
00:52:42 --> 00:52:44 came to the Twin Cities where I live.
00:52:45 --> 00:52:54 That sparked protests. and it also sparked worries worries that what we see
00:52:54 --> 00:52:58 in Chicago was going to happen here soon,
00:53:00 --> 00:53:03 now we have no idea that that is going to happen,
00:53:05 --> 00:53:08 but you could tell that there was a sense of fear,
00:53:11 --> 00:53:13 that at any moment that could happen.
00:53:17 --> 00:53:21 As I've said, immigration is a complex issue.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:26 It's not easy. If it was, we would have solved it long ago.
00:53:27 --> 00:53:36 But what is happening currently with ICE in Chicago and in other cities isn't complex.
00:53:38 --> 00:53:39 It's wrong.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:41 It's a sin.
00:53:45 --> 00:53:49 And it's headed to your town next.
00:53:59 --> 00:54:05 If you have thoughts about this episode, feel free to send me an email.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:08 You can send it to churchinmain at substack.com.
00:54:08 --> 00:54:13 I will include links. There will be several links I will put in this,
00:54:13 --> 00:54:18 including links to the Presbyterian Outlook article that includes some quotes
00:54:18 --> 00:54:21 from Quincy and some other Presbyterian pastors.
00:54:22 --> 00:54:31 I will put links to the ProPublica article and some other things in there as well.
00:54:33 --> 00:54:38 If you want to learn more about this podcast, to listen to past episodes, or to donate,
00:54:39 --> 00:54:44 visit churchinmaine.org you can also visit churchinmaine.substack.com to read
00:54:44 --> 00:54:45 articles that I've written,
00:54:47 --> 00:54:51 feel free to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app and leave
00:54:51 --> 00:54:54 a review that always helps others find this podcast.
00:54:57 --> 00:55:03 That is it for this episode of Church in Maine I'm Dennis Sanders your host
00:55:03 --> 00:55:08 as I always like to say thank you so much for listening Take care,
00:55:08 --> 00:55:11 Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.