In part two of his conversation with Lutheran Pastor Rob Maialis, host Dennis Sanders turns the lens toward the youngest generation entering adulthood. Is there a genuine religious revival happening among Gen Z, or are we measuring the wrong things?
Together, they explore what it might look like for mainline churches to truly meet Gen Z rather than simply wait for them, and how an unlikely partnership between the oldest and youngest generations in the pew might be exactly what both groups need.
Shownotes:
Gen Z's Religious Revival Likely Escapes Notice (Rob's Article)
Related Episode:
The Church and the Three-Quarter Life Crisis with Rob Myallis | Episode 273
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00:00:27 --> 00:00:31 Welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in the intersection
00:00:31 --> 00:00:35 of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:40 Well, we're sharing part two of my conversation with Lutheran Pastor Rob Maialis.
00:00:41 --> 00:00:47 Last week, we focused on what Rob calls the three-quarter life crisis.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:53 And that means people who are in their mid to late 70s, and they're kind of
00:00:53 --> 00:01:01 dealing with that change that you face in your 70s. and how that affects the life of the church.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 During that conversation, we also talked about how churches can offer care to
00:01:07 --> 00:01:09 our members at this stage in life,
00:01:09 --> 00:01:17 and how those who make it through this life crisis can become vital members of the congregation.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:23 Today, we're going to be looking at the other end of the spectrum,
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 in this case we're looking at Gen Z.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:31 Now a few months back, I believe it was in January, Rob wrote a post on his
00:01:31 --> 00:01:36 blog with the title, Gen Z's religious revival likely escapes notice.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:44 Now there has been a lot of debate on whether or not there is a revival among Gen Z.
00:01:46 --> 00:01:54 Religious demographer and pastor Ryan Burge, believes that this type of a revival is not happening.
00:01:55 --> 00:02:00 Rob disagrees. He believes that we are looking at this through the wrong lens,
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 and we'll get into that in this conversation.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:08 A little bit of a note, this interview takes place in two parts.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:16 The first half took place on the same day of our discussion on the three quarter life crisis.
00:02:17 --> 00:02:22 And we were having such a good time that Rob wanted to continue the conversation.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 So we came back a day later to talk a bit more.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:28 And Rob sort of turned the tables on me.
00:02:28 --> 00:02:34 He wanted to interview me, ask some questions of me regarding what happened
00:02:34 --> 00:02:41 here in Minneapolis in January and February with federal agents descending upon
00:02:41 --> 00:02:44 the city during Operation Metro surge,
00:02:44 --> 00:02:52 and what effects that had on Gen Z maybe coming back to church or not.
00:02:53 --> 00:02:57 So, I think that that's going to be an interesting part of the discussion.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:00 I hope that you will really want to hear that.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:07 And we just also just really talk about, again, what is the importance of this
00:03:07 --> 00:03:11 a revival, and is it even important that there is a revival?
00:03:12 --> 00:03:19 So, with all of that out of the way, let's get into this conversation with Pastor
00:03:19 --> 00:03:26 Rob Maialis, this time talking about a revival among Gen Z.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 Well one of the things that i also wanted to talk to you about because
00:03:49 --> 00:03:53 you wrote something on your own blog about revival especially
00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 among um kind of
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 gen z gen alpha so we're
00:03:59 --> 00:04:03 kind of going now to the other end of the spectrum and
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 that has been kind of interesting because it seems like there's always been
00:04:06 --> 00:04:10 a there are people are saying there's revival and then other people like no
00:04:10 --> 00:04:16 there's no revival and you're kind of on the the revival kind of side of that
00:04:16 --> 00:04:22 i kind of curious what has made you believe that there is some sort of a revival
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 and what is that looking like,
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 yeah uh i actually had to listen to my daughters.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:34 Uh okay so uh you
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 know i grow up in the i'm in high
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 school in the 90s uh you know
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 the divorce rate surge rem comes out
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 losing my religion it's like you just
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 see the participation there's sort of a
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 flock of people to evangelical churches but within
00:04:51 --> 00:04:58 10 years even that wave is sort of cresting and then you just have the disdain
00:04:58 --> 00:05:04 about politics things like the da vinci code lack of institutional trust you
00:05:04 --> 00:05:07 know all these things that i think Chris Smith of Notre Dame has written about
00:05:07 --> 00:05:11 really well the reasons why the 90s really represented a breakdown,
00:05:11 --> 00:05:17 a sort of American mid-20th century kind of church and Christian and culture consensus.
00:05:19 --> 00:05:22 And we talked about that a little bit ago in terms of the boomers and sort of
00:05:22 --> 00:05:24 the need for them to be able to pass on faith and stuff.
00:05:26 --> 00:05:32 Well, what happened in my mind then is like, okay, well, nobody's going to be Christian anymore.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 So I kept telling my daughters like, oh, what's it like to be a Christian minority in your school?
00:05:36 --> 00:05:38 And they're like, I don't feel like a Christian minority, Dad.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 I'm like, yeah, you do. They're like, no, no, I really don't, Dad.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:45 So I finally decided that my teenage daughters in this case were right and that
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 they knew better their religious experience than I did.
00:05:48 --> 00:06:00 But what was happening was that there is a huge ecosystem out there for young
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 people that I have no access to.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:11 It turns out that when the algorithms spit out stuff for me they don't show me multicultural,
00:06:12 --> 00:06:15 20-somethings or turning point usa
00:06:15 --> 00:06:23 24-year-olds talking about the gospel right my uh social media feed is you know
00:06:23 --> 00:06:30 uh about how daughters drive their dads nuts um about maybe philly sports and
00:06:30 --> 00:06:34 then about why middle-aged runners are kind of crazy people, right?
00:06:35 --> 00:06:43 I'm not seeing all this stuff about Christianity and what's happening with young people.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:49 So I think what's happening is that there is a profound vibe shift.
00:06:49 --> 00:06:54 And whereas people, if you know somebody in their 50s who doesn't go to church,
00:06:54 --> 00:06:59 The chances that they start going to church are very, very,
00:06:59 --> 00:07:08 very low I know so few people in their 40s and 50s That had been out of church
00:07:08 --> 00:07:13 for say like Not just like they moved But I mean they stopped going to church
00:07:13 --> 00:07:14 That have returned to worship,
00:07:15 --> 00:07:21 Very, very few people once they're out in their 40s or 50s of Gen X And like
00:07:21 --> 00:07:22 once they're done, they're done.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 Um and i think they're just really cynical and jaded
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 to it but like the gen
00:07:30 --> 00:07:33 z they're they didn't
00:07:33 --> 00:07:39 grow up seeing the institution fall apart they didn't grow up kind of with seeing
00:07:39 --> 00:07:43 the catholic church scandal they didn't grow up with all the stuff what they
00:07:43 --> 00:07:48 grew up with was a world in which they had anxiety about the climate information
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 overload um and you know the COVID things,
00:07:53 --> 00:07:57 their whole experience has just been not the collapse of institutions,
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 but just a lot of trauma and a lot of uncertainty.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:13 Fear here and what i think that means in the weird way in the end is that they are.
00:08:28 --> 00:08:34 Hey dennis sorry about that it said that i had a disconnected that's okay Okay.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:38 So just say that our generation has lots of cynicism.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:42 This young generation grows up, not watching the institution collapse,
00:08:42 --> 00:08:46 but just sort of in a permanent crisis of one problem after another.
00:08:47 --> 00:08:52 And they grow up in a world in which many of them are afraid of guns in school,
00:08:52 --> 00:08:59 in which they are overwhelmed by climate,
00:08:59 --> 00:09:03 in which they're overwhelmed by the COVID crisis,
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 in which they sort of don't have a lot of trust in government,
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 in which they probably hear echoes, depending on what chamber sort of they're
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 in, of just sort of government sort of enforcing stuff on people.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:17 So like they're they're looking for hope.
00:09:18 --> 00:09:23 And and I think, you know, we're they're looking for roots. And so along comes
00:09:23 --> 00:09:26 this Christian tradition that says, hey, you know, we've been around for 2000
00:09:26 --> 00:09:27 years. We stood the test of time.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 We're about hope and love and rituals of life that give you grounding.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:35 People are like, oh, that sounds really good.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:41 And so what I would say is that even if you do not see an increase in number
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 of people in your congregation or in your ministry,
00:09:44 --> 00:09:51 just know that the average posture of a 20-year-old towards faith is going to
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 be very different than the average posture of a 50-year-old towards faith.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:58 And there will be some 20-year-olds who are just as hardened to religion as
00:09:58 --> 00:10:02 anybody, but the average 20-something in America today is, I think,
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 way more open to faith than the average 50-year-old.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 Now, does that look like they're going to church? Not necessarily.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:14 Does that look like they pray the Lord's Prayer?
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 Not necessarily. Does it look like they're baptized?
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 Not necessarily, because they didn't grow up in the church.
00:10:22 --> 00:10:26 Many of them have only been to church a handful of times in their life, if that.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:32 So the way that they connect with faith, though, may be, for instance,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:37 that they go to a Bible study with a friend.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:44 It may be that they just watch lots of reels online. mind.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:52 It may be that they put a cross on their Instagram profile, but it's unlikely
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 that they're creedal Christians.
00:10:54 --> 00:11:01 It's unlikely that they are weekly attending worship. They may even have a statue
00:11:01 --> 00:11:06 of Buddha on their wall at their college dorm or in their room.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:13 They may actually, I think 31% of that generation will only date somebody if
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 they have a compatible astrological sign.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:21 So they may consult their astrology app just as much as they consult their Bible app.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:27 So the way that I think about it is it's a revival of spiritual interest.
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 And this generation is above all spiritual but not religious.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:35 They said that about our generation, Dennis, but spiritual but not religious
00:11:35 --> 00:11:41 in 1995 or 2005 just meant that you didn't want to be rude, but you thought that it was bunk.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:45 Spiritual but religious today actually means like you're actually
00:11:45 --> 00:11:49 spiritually hungry and like you'll you
00:11:49 --> 00:11:52 might have a mantra and you might go to yoga but at
00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 the same time you might actually like read uh
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 the gospel of john because you're online part
00:11:58 --> 00:12:02 of some influence or challenge you read the gospel of john in the month of march
00:12:02 --> 00:12:07 leading up to easter like it's just a total kind of mishmash of everything and
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 so if you're in a church you're used to looking at attendance buildings and
00:12:10 --> 00:12:16 cash Like this isn't this is just not going to be like a merge on your radar.
00:12:16 --> 00:12:20 But if you're just talking to people and listening to them, you're just going
00:12:20 --> 00:12:24 to find or if you were in 20 and had an algorithm of an average 20 year old,
00:12:25 --> 00:12:31 you would find that your world has far more Christianity than the average 45 to 50 year old.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:37 Young people, I've talked to people in business and they said 20 to 25 year
00:12:37 --> 00:12:41 olds who come into their private corporations, you know, Fortune 500 companies,
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 they'll tell their bosses straight up that they're Christian.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:47 In a way that like 20 years ago, nobody who was 25 would have said that they
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 were a Christian. And now they'll tell people, I'm a Christian.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:54 So in terms of identity, in terms of information, very open.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:59 In terms of like participation in the religious institution as we understood
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 it, they're not even anti. They just don't have that framework.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:10 And so they never went to kids every Sunday to rebel against that.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:12 They just have never seen it done.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:19 So then what does that mean for the church? How does, I was going to ask how
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 does a church reach them, but it's more,
00:13:22 --> 00:13:29 I think, how does a church meet them, which I think is a little bit different. Yeah, yeah. I do.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:35 So I do think that some of them will show up at our doors for worship.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 I don't think that's not going to happen. And many people in this generation
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 still have some kind of Christian background.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:49 But, you know, given that on an average Sunday, only 6% of Americans go to worship anyway.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:55 Like, I just don't think we can expect that like, oh, like, you know,
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 they're all going to come to see us because they're spiritually hungry.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 David Gardner- What I would say is.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 That i don't know because i was
00:14:06 --> 00:14:10 trained to run a restaurant not
00:14:10 --> 00:14:17 to uh serve a door dash buffet culture oh that's an interesting way of looking
00:14:17 --> 00:14:22 at it yeah no it's like the boomers built the restaurant the builder generation
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 built the restaurant the boomers built one down the road that had more exciting
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 music and a different vibe but it was kind of more or less the same food,
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 our generation came along and said, eh, we don't like to eat out.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:36 And some of us chose to, our children, you know, the, the sort of the Gen Z,
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 they came along and they were like, oh yeah, the food at like that restaurant
00:14:40 --> 00:14:45 is pretty good, but I'm just, again, I'm just going to door dash it.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 And I only want, and I want it like without mayo, but I want it with a sriracha
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 and I don't want that. And I don't want that side.
00:14:51 --> 00:14:55 And I want that side instead, right? It's cost, everything is customizable in the world.
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 So, so we're asking people to sort of think
00:14:58 --> 00:15:03 of we're trained again to sort of think about like this is what we do and now
00:15:03 --> 00:15:07 we're sort of people who are like expecting a fully customizable religious experience
00:15:07 --> 00:15:13 so at some level uh i don't think we know where this is going um it could be
00:15:13 --> 00:15:16 a flash in the pan i don't think so,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:22 um i think we do have to meet them i think we have to think about ways to.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 If we do have young people in our church or in our community,
00:15:27 --> 00:15:29 really asking them what they want.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:36 You know, again, that listening and it might actually require like real evangelism,
00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 which isn't just having a nice church service, but actually,
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 you know, going to coffee shops,
00:15:41 --> 00:15:46 going to rec centers, going to pick up basketball games, going to running clubs.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 And really, again, like you said, meeting people where they are.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:59 Also doing stuff online, recognizing that there are going to be people who follow and like us,
00:15:59 --> 00:16:05 are paying attention online at that age, far earlier than they'd ever come to be in worship with us.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 So i'm not saying go digital but i'm actually
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13 saying we're just gonna have to think far more uh
00:16:13 --> 00:16:18 missionally or evangelically uh than simply like oh we just need to have like
00:16:18 --> 00:16:22 a really good pastor and really good music and then like 20 somethings will
00:16:22 --> 00:16:27 obviously start worshiping 3.4 times a month like that's just not that's not
00:16:27 --> 00:16:32 going to happen well i'm even wondering at times if,
00:16:33 --> 00:16:37 I mean, you talked a little bit about how we were kind of having to be.
00:16:40 --> 00:16:44 Not looking at things like a restaurant and DoorDash, of what does that mean
00:16:44 --> 00:16:50 for church and what are the expectations for church and for discipleship and all of that?
00:16:50 --> 00:16:55 Because it seems like it almost has to be very different in how we do it.
00:16:55 --> 00:17:02 And, you know, how do we maintain kind of the centrality of the gospel but also
00:17:02 --> 00:17:07 fit it for the times that we're in and for a generation that's very different.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 Because I think you're right that especially because we're both from the same generation,
00:17:14 --> 00:17:26 Generation X, it's kind of a more cynical kind of maybe ironic generation to
00:17:26 --> 00:17:31 a generation that just they don't have any history really of church in some ways.
00:17:31 --> 00:17:34 And so it's a different mindset.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:40 It totally is. I mean, if you were to try to watch The Goonies with kids today,
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 they would tell you the kids are being really mean.
00:17:42 --> 00:17:46 And they'd say, how do the kids, like, how do the kids' parents not know where
00:17:46 --> 00:17:50 they are, right? I mean, it's totally, it's the same world, but it's a different world.
00:17:50 --> 00:17:54 Seinfeld would never work today. It would be way too dark and biting for the
00:17:54 --> 00:17:58 younger generation, right? Again, they- Not even the Simpsons would work.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:03 Yeah, because they're just, they daily, if they, you know, they watch,
00:18:03 --> 00:18:08 they're imbibing just as much, information via video as we are, in fact, not.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:12 And so they daily get dosed with toxicity of the news.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 And they're like, I need another narrative.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:22 So in some ways, what we're saying as Christians is we have a narrative that
00:18:22 --> 00:18:25 any human who's ever lived can fit into.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:31 Fundamentally, the most inclusive one, yet that acknowledges the fundamental
00:18:31 --> 00:18:32 brokenness of the human condition,
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 but just says ultimately there's like this god
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 of hope uh we have the
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 narrative that they need we know how to do
00:18:41 --> 00:18:51 community um what will be different for us is how to do community that is probably
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 lower on the programming side especially because people in their 20s are often
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 moving right so you have 320 something like oh i'm going to start something
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 and then like two of them move in the next three months.
00:19:01 --> 00:19:05 So it may be more relational, maybe more digital.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:11 It's likely not going to be totally outside of the church because young people love sanctuaries.
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14 I think there is a sense they want holiness.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 So I'm not saying, oh, everything the church is doing now is wrong.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:24 It's just going to be this different vibe of spiritual hunger, which is great.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:32 But they're bringing with it a mindset of customability, customizing,
00:19:32 --> 00:19:38 without any necessary knowledge of the creedal formation of the church.
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 And because the dominant expression, if people are Christian and they're under
00:19:43 --> 00:19:48 25, chances are they were going to an evangelical church where they were only
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 probably, frankly, going once a month.
00:19:50 --> 00:19:54 And they were, even then, probably just going to the kids' zone and not even worship.
00:19:55 --> 00:20:00 We literally have a whole generation of people that just don't like the whole
00:20:00 --> 00:20:01 traditional versus contemporary worship.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:07 Like that's laughable to somebody in a 25. Like they, they don't even like that doesn't matter.
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 That's such like, that doesn't like, they don't know what those words even mean.
00:20:13 --> 00:20:17 If they think of worship now, they're going to think if they've ever been to
00:20:17 --> 00:20:19 worship, it's probably a big mega church worship.
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 So, so again, they just don't have the framework. So, So I think it's,
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 I don't have all the answers. I'm thinking about this and I really want to start
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 this conversation because I think most mainline churches don't have a lot of
00:20:31 --> 00:20:35 20 somethings in their building right now and they're not picking up on it again.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:43 But there is a different spiritual vibe. I think it's going to be about a multi-pronged
00:20:43 --> 00:20:47 approach that emphasizes relationship as always.
00:20:48 --> 00:20:53 But it's not a totally outside of the church strategy either because then people want that holiness.
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 Want to see people of a different generation. I don't think they're like,
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 I only want to go to 20-somethings. I don't think that's what they're saying.
00:21:00 --> 00:21:05 So I think what we have, we have multi-generational communities that are found
00:21:05 --> 00:21:11 in weekly rituals with a central story and stories of meaning,
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 hope, love, and brokenness and forgiveness.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15 We have the goods.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:20 This is going to take a little bit to kind of connect.
00:21:22 --> 00:21:28 Yep. Well, Rob, I know that I want to talk to you about this more,
00:21:28 --> 00:21:32 but I know that you have a heart out, and I want to honor that.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:36 But I hope to have you back to talk about this a little bit more,
00:21:36 --> 00:21:41 because I think that this is an important discussion, especially for the church right now.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:47 Just because I think we're kind of stuck in a way of thinking about things and
00:21:47 --> 00:21:52 how the church has operated for the last 60, 70 years.
00:21:52 --> 00:21:57 And I think that we're really on a cusp of something different.
00:21:57 --> 00:22:03 And it's not that church, as you said, I mean, sanctuaries and worship and things
00:22:03 --> 00:22:10 are still important, but we're in a different era. And I think we haven't really realized that yet.
00:22:12 --> 00:22:18 No, no. Yeah. Well, as a church, we're blessed to be a multi-generational community.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:22 So on the one hand, we have people who are kind of have lived a beautiful life
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 of faith and are not trying to figure out what that looks like when they're
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 not valued for their productivity.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 On the other hand, we have all these people entering a world in which they are
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 feeling so much pressure to be valued for their productivity.
00:22:33 --> 00:22:37 And they desperately want another narrative that like they have worth outside
00:22:37 --> 00:22:42 of what they achieve, that they're beloved, um, that there is hope.
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 So both generations at the end and the beginning are struggling with,
00:22:45 --> 00:22:49 with product, you know, the, the meaning of life relative to productivity.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 They're struggling with what I have community when my life has changed in it.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:54 They're struggling with forgiveness.
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 It's like, it's like the same kind of questions we are as humans.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:03 And again, if there is a way for us to be congregations where you can have these
00:23:03 --> 00:23:07 generations learning from each other and in conversation, I think that's when
00:23:07 --> 00:23:08 you get some really beautiful stuff happening.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:17 Yeah, I agree. Well, maybe we will talk back later.
00:23:17 --> 00:23:20 But for for now, I will say thank you.
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 And definitely we'll have you back here again.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:28 Yeah. Well, thanks for thanks for letting me inviting me on.
00:23:28 --> 00:23:32 And I hope you have a really great rest of your day.
00:23:34 --> 00:23:35 All right.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:43 Hey dennis i want to thank you for being willing to kind of give up some more
00:23:43 --> 00:23:47 of your time here when i listen to your podcast what i notice is that you're
00:23:47 --> 00:23:48 really good at asking questions,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:56 but i wanted to actually ask you some questions and and i wanted to uh ask you um.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:01 Kind of a general question but then kind of a specific question and i'll give
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 the general and then the specific at the same time and you can kind of answer how you want The one is,
00:24:05 --> 00:24:15 have you seen in your context more openness of people in Gen Z towards Christianity,
00:24:15 --> 00:24:19 towards walking with Jesus or sort of church participation?
00:24:19 --> 00:24:27 And the second is, given kind of the insanity that happened in Minnesota this winter,
00:24:27 --> 00:24:35 are you seeing on the other side of that young people who have just become totally
00:24:35 --> 00:24:41 like even more jaded about kind of church and politics and therefore want nothing to do?
00:24:41 --> 00:24:47 Or people who are kind of like, hey, the church actually here seemed to be a place of caring,
00:24:47 --> 00:24:57 if not even a break on some of the most kind of aggressive of the ICE policies.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:01 So I just because in general, and then are you seeing anything this winter where
00:25:01 --> 00:25:06 you're just noticing like sort of curiosity or more hostility and how that has
00:25:06 --> 00:25:06 played itself out there?
00:25:09 --> 00:25:14 That's a good question. I think part of it has been, and I've seen it mostly
00:25:14 --> 00:25:23 with kind of people who are, I would say, kind of at the edge of young millennial slash Gen Z.
00:25:24 --> 00:25:28 Like 30, 35, kind of. Yeah, 35, 36. Probably younger than that.
00:25:28 --> 00:25:30 I would say maybe around 30.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:35 Okay. So, you know, early, the late 20s, early 30s.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:42 Yeah, yeah. And what I've seen are people who are, and I know people who have
00:25:42 --> 00:25:47 been affiliated or kind of affiliated with the church, who either have...
00:25:49 --> 00:25:56 Maybe in some ways deconstructed, but they still are kind of a part of a community,
00:25:57 --> 00:26:02 even though they don't totally know if they believe everything,
00:26:02 --> 00:26:03 but they're still there.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe people who don't maybe have a faith background,
00:26:09 --> 00:26:17 and in both cases, these are people who are married, come along,
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 and they still see themselves as a part of the congregation.
00:26:21 --> 00:26:29 And one person in particular, they got there late on Sunday,
00:26:29 --> 00:26:34 this past Sunday, so they didn't hear the sermon, but they were interested in hearing the sermon.
00:26:34 --> 00:26:40 And so, you know, I told him I would send him an email with a link to the podcast
00:26:40 --> 00:26:44 and, you know, there is an interest there.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:53 It's not maybe the way, it's definitely not the way that I think I would have had expected years ago.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:03 That someone would come and may have some interest, but in some ways they either
00:27:03 --> 00:27:07 may have been turned off in some ways or maybe not have a background,
00:27:07 --> 00:27:10 but there is still an interest of some way.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:17 You bring up, so yesterday part of my time crunch was that I was actually,
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 I ended up meeting a family for a baptism.
00:27:20 --> 00:27:24 And it was a woman who had grown up evangelical and a man who had grown up Catholic.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:30 And one of the things that I have just, and I'm curious if you have experienced
00:27:30 --> 00:27:37 this, people who grew up evangelical have done some deconstruction work, but they find that.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:42 They don't want to go back to an evangelical church. I mean,
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 again, that can mean a lot of things.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:52 But they grew up such in this way of thinking that only evangelical churches
00:27:52 --> 00:27:58 were the true church that they almost can't deconstruct to anywhere else because
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 they know they've rejected the evangelical church,
00:28:01 --> 00:28:05 but they were just ingrained to think that nothing else is real Christianity.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 And they kind of get paralyzed by that. I don't know if you've interacted with
00:28:09 --> 00:28:14 people like that in your own kind of circles or own journey that they have deconstructed,
00:28:14 --> 00:28:18 but they don't know how to put Humpty Dumpty back together in a meaningful way yet.
00:28:19 --> 00:28:23 I think that there is some truth to that. I mean, I think the stereotype with
00:28:23 --> 00:28:28 people who are, you know, the kind of what they call the ex-evangelical is that
00:28:28 --> 00:28:30 they just kind of leave the church entirely.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:36 But the reality is I don't think that they totally leave it.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:44 And they are, in some ways, maybe getting rid of things that they don't really believe anymore.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 But I think at some level, they think that some of this still matters.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:53 And so they end
00:28:53 --> 00:29:01 up sometimes at a church or in a community where they feel it's okay to not
00:29:01 --> 00:29:09 have all of the beliefs or the right beliefs or to have it all figured out.
00:29:10 --> 00:29:17 And I think obviously that's more common in mainline churches.
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 And I think, and I'm probably as critical about this myself,
00:29:22 --> 00:29:28 that sometimes we can be a little bit wishy-washy about our faith, and that's true.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:36 But I think what is a positive is that we do at least allow for room for people
00:29:36 --> 00:29:45 to not have all their answers figured out and to allow them time to figure that out, to learn, to grow,
00:29:45 --> 00:29:49 to be in, to kind of be in community or how they, you know, talk about believe,
00:29:49 --> 00:29:57 belong, become is really to belong kind of before the belief part comes.
00:29:57 --> 00:30:03 Well yeah just to kind of build on what you're saying um so this family that
00:30:03 --> 00:30:08 i was interacting with to kind of you know case in point um they kind of have
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 been struggling to find a church home and so they've been watching online at
00:30:11 --> 00:30:13 our church for like the last four years.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:22 Um but they um they were at some point going to a unitarian church but they
00:30:22 --> 00:30:29 decided that that wasn't there wasn't enough jesus so they want a church that um is not,
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 tied to sort of political conservatism but they
00:30:33 --> 00:30:36 don't want a church that has just become the total foil of that where they're
00:30:36 --> 00:30:41 just going to hear like sort of religiously thin sort of politically heavy you
00:30:41 --> 00:30:47 know kind of commentary in the other direction so yeah that's it yeah so that
00:30:47 --> 00:30:51 is just fascinating the way in which you and I are talking about very different contexts, people who,
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 They have like this hodgepodge of stuff from the past, some of which they're
00:30:56 --> 00:31:00 rebelling against. Maybe if they're married, one person has none. Maybe one has baggage.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 Part of it's online. Part of it's in person. But it's not, it's just,
00:31:06 --> 00:31:09 yeah, it's not like one size fits all.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:12 There's just going to be a little bit of a plug and play there for them.
00:31:14 --> 00:31:19 Yeah, I think the other thing that I would, I've been thinking about a lot when
00:31:19 --> 00:31:25 it comes to the whole, is there revival? is if there isn't a revival.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:36 It's funny, I was just listening to a podcast from Luther Seminary with Ryan Berge,
00:31:36 --> 00:31:45 the sociologist slash pastor, and he definitely comes down on that there isn't a revival.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:49 And of course, he has all the numbers that he brings in to that.
00:31:50 --> 00:32:01 And I think where I kind of come down on this is I don't know if that question
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 matters as much of if there is a revival or isn't there a revival.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 The question is, how are we as church—.
00:32:11 --> 00:32:16 Creating space for people who do have questions. And I think that there is a
00:32:16 --> 00:32:19 lot of questioning in our society,
00:32:19 --> 00:32:27 especially among Gen Z, who probably have no idea what this is about.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:31 They don't even have, as I think he even says in the podcast,
00:32:31 --> 00:32:33 and I think, and you brought it up yesterday,
00:32:33 --> 00:32:43 they don't have any idea, any really negative view of the faith at all because
00:32:43 --> 00:32:44 they didn't grow up with it.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46 I mean, they're not used to that. There's nothing to rebel against.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:50 They never went to church. They never went to church. Or so many of them,
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 so many of them had so little church, it's not, they might've had a Christian
00:32:53 --> 00:32:57 that they don't like, but they're not rebelling against years of sitting in
00:32:57 --> 00:32:58 the pews that they didn't love.
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 I mean, they're like, they went to church like two or three times a year at most,
00:33:02 --> 00:33:06 you know with grandma maybe maybe maybe exactly
00:33:06 --> 00:33:09 yeah and i think part of the thing is i just
00:33:09 --> 00:33:12 wonder sometimes if we're looking at a revival as a
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 hope that you know we're going to get all these people in
00:33:15 --> 00:33:22 and and revivals don't they kind of happen when they happen because that's really
00:33:22 --> 00:33:29 when the spirit moves and i think that maybe the case for us right now is not
00:33:29 --> 00:33:33 to see if this as as a revival, as more of a.
00:33:36 --> 00:33:41 For lack of a better term, which also leads to talk of a revival,
00:33:41 --> 00:33:48 awakening, in that I think people are wanting to know more about faith.
00:33:48 --> 00:33:55 And I think especially in this age where people don't feel a whole lot of trust
00:33:55 --> 00:34:01 in institutions, they want something to hold on to.
00:34:01 --> 00:34:10 And so So that's really kind of the thing is that maybe this is not where the
00:34:10 --> 00:34:11 spirit is moving in a fire.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:21 It's more of like a trickle of water, but those trickles of water can make a big dent after a while.
00:34:21 --> 00:34:25 I know you're talking about water and spirit. We're getting somewhere,
00:34:25 --> 00:34:29 awakening, water, spirit, feeling it, feeling it, Dennis, feeling it.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:35 Yeah. Do you think, though, that there has, I mean, again, I want to kind of,
00:34:35 --> 00:34:38 I think there's a way in which I want to kind of bring together a previous discussion
00:34:38 --> 00:34:42 on kind of the three-quarter with this Gen Z.
00:34:42 --> 00:34:46 But I'm curious, do you feel it's too soon or have you observed anything going
00:34:46 --> 00:34:51 on with young people and kind of the way the church was involved in the whole
00:34:51 --> 00:34:52 stuff that's happened in Minnesota?
00:34:53 --> 00:35:00 It's kind of too soon I don't know yet I think that that will that will have
00:35:00 --> 00:35:05 an impact one way or the other and I think it really depends on.
00:35:07 --> 00:35:11 How people see things. I think,
00:35:12 --> 00:35:18 now again, this is from the inside here in Minnesota, but because I think people
00:35:18 --> 00:35:26 have, the church was very visible in many ways, that can have an impact of some way.
00:35:28 --> 00:35:35 I think that that could do something in the positive that helps people see a
00:35:35 --> 00:35:41 different way that it's not all in one way or acting in one way.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:49 Last week, I did an interview with a reporter from Christianity Today who was here,
00:35:49 --> 00:35:54 and she did a story about how, especially in evangelical churches,
00:35:54 --> 00:35:59 were stepping up, especially when it came to refugees that were being picked up by ICE.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:07 And i think people seeing that in communities whether it's you know,
00:36:08 --> 00:36:15 helping to feed people who are can't get out in their homes yeah um and i mean
00:36:15 --> 00:36:20 i remember hearing i think i can't remember if it was something recently that you know.
00:36:23 --> 00:36:31 There was a situation where I think it was mostly a group of mostly LGBT folk
00:36:31 --> 00:36:35 that were kind of helping out in the Muslim community.
00:36:36 --> 00:36:38 And they were just curious, well, what do you guys believe?
00:36:39 --> 00:36:42 And they were kind of wanting, because they were wanting to help these people.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:47 And what's all this about? And I think that things like that,
00:36:48 --> 00:36:53 when you start to kind of help people like that, that starts to bring up questions.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:57 And maybe when they start to see churches involved in things,
00:36:57 --> 00:36:59 those are planting seeds.
00:37:01 --> 00:37:06 I think it'll take a while to see how that grows into something.
00:37:07 --> 00:37:10 But I think that it can have an effect.
00:37:11 --> 00:37:14 Seeds uh yes most seeds take a long
00:37:14 --> 00:37:17 time for germination exactly and if
00:37:17 --> 00:37:20 if they're trees the bible talks a lot about tree
00:37:20 --> 00:37:23 you know fruit bearing trees we're talking three to four years before you
00:37:23 --> 00:37:26 start to get a harvest yeah you
00:37:26 --> 00:37:33 know maybe though to to kind of um maybe kind of tie this together uh this conversation
00:37:33 --> 00:37:37 started about kind of the three-quarter life crisis and people kind of trying
00:37:37 --> 00:37:42 to find meaning in retirement and especially kind of that second wave of retirement
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 where physically things catch up with them. It's going to blow my nose, sorry.
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52 As soon as the weather got nice in the spring, man, my allergies went.
00:37:54 --> 00:38:02 But at the same time, the connection to Gen Z and how this comes together for me.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:08 So I wrote this article on my own page about the Gen Z.
00:38:09 --> 00:38:13 And I have a guy in my church who was a CEO.
00:38:13 --> 00:38:17 And if you're a pastor and you've ever had somebody who's a retired CEO,
00:38:18 --> 00:38:24 They will treat you like an employee and they will have that CEO mindset no matter what. Right.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:29 So you're you're you know, they're you're whatever they're managing director of church affairs.
00:38:31 --> 00:38:38 And he he read this and he wrote a five page memo for me on how we needed to
00:38:38 --> 00:38:41 conduct ourselves with young adult ministry.
00:38:42 --> 00:38:48 And i was like uh well that's a little in but we ended up having a really awesome
00:38:48 --> 00:38:54 conversation and finally in the end this uh you know again kind of boomer kind
00:38:54 --> 00:38:59 of approaching that stage was like you know maybe rather than plan for it we
00:38:59 --> 00:39:00 just need to kind of ride this,
00:39:01 --> 00:39:05 and it was really cool to see this person kind of who has
00:39:05 --> 00:39:07 such a clearly analytical mind and strategic and kind
00:39:07 --> 00:39:10 of how we vision resources metrics
00:39:10 --> 00:39:14 i mean you know this is the way the guy thinks he's like hey you
00:39:14 --> 00:39:16 know maybe this really is something we just kind of have to let be a bit
00:39:16 --> 00:39:21 more organic and just kind of see kind of how what the spirit is really calling
00:39:21 --> 00:39:25 us to so that was really cool that i saw this guy when we were talking about
00:39:25 --> 00:39:29 ministry to 20 somethings i actually was seeing kind of sanctification before
00:39:29 --> 00:39:35 my eyes where he was letting go of his initial response which was strategize,
00:39:35 --> 00:39:37 allocate, evaluate.
00:39:39 --> 00:39:44 And now it's like, hey, you know, what's what might the spirit be calling us to here?
00:39:44 --> 00:39:48 And he's just excited because he feels like he was part of the seeker sensitive
00:39:48 --> 00:39:52 movement of the 80s that in his mind really jettisoned a lot of kind of core
00:39:52 --> 00:39:54 theology to reach out to people.
00:39:54 --> 00:39:59 And he says, hey, if these young people are wanting like good theology, like we can do that.
00:39:59 --> 00:40:02 We can do that. So it's just, again, it's kind of cool that,
00:40:02 --> 00:40:08 again, there may be some fascinating interplays in the next 10 years as the
00:40:08 --> 00:40:13 boomer generation kind of really steps away from leadership in churches and
00:40:13 --> 00:40:17 the 20-somethings kind of begin to leave their mark and have a very different
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20 hope for and way of interacting with the institution.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:27 So kind of exciting. Well, and I also wonder, bringing back that three-quarter life crisis,
00:40:28 --> 00:40:32 is there a space
00:40:32 --> 00:40:41 for those people who are in their mid-70s to mentor people in their 20s who
00:40:41 --> 00:40:46 are starting to go through life and who also may be new to the faith or have
00:40:46 --> 00:40:48 questions about the faith?
00:40:50 --> 00:40:52 That that might be if those are people who
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55 in some ways that you talked earlier about trying to find people
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 for your confirmation class that that
00:40:59 --> 00:41:06 could be something of having a 75 year old have a young adult class yeah that
00:41:06 --> 00:41:12 can help people deal with the questions of faith because usually and i think
00:41:12 --> 00:41:16 one of the reasons we talk a lot about gen z right now i mean part it is generational
00:41:16 --> 00:41:18 that they have not grown up with a faith.
00:41:18 --> 00:41:23 Two is that in their 20s is when you do have a lot of questions about your faith,
00:41:23 --> 00:41:27 and this generation probably more so than any.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:37 And so, it's a way of kind of putting these two groups together and, you know,
00:41:38 --> 00:41:42 I don't know, just something I've thought about in this conversation.
00:41:42 --> 00:41:46 Yeah, yeah, because we started, one of the 20-somethings in my church,
00:41:46 --> 00:41:49 I'm really envious of her faith.
00:41:49 --> 00:41:53 I remember when I was in my 20s, I was like, Lord, I will do what you want me to do.
00:41:53 --> 00:41:57 Now I'm like, Lord, I will do what you want me to do, but I have a marriage,
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01 and I have two kids, and they're at this stage of life, I have college to pay
00:42:01 --> 00:42:03 for, and there's a mortgage.
00:42:03 --> 00:42:07 But if you don't touch those things, then I'll do what you want me to do with my life.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:11 And I love that, just that freshness of somebody in the young saying,
00:42:11 --> 00:42:16 I have a zeal to do what God wants me to do and earnestly trying to search for
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19 what does the Lord ask of me in my life?
00:42:19 --> 00:42:22 And I'm like, oh, I remember when I had that passion.
00:42:22 --> 00:42:27 And now I'm just trying to balance all of these other kind of forces in life.
00:42:28 --> 00:42:31 But the other, we've also started, some of you call them the Faith and Lead
00:42:31 --> 00:42:35 Collective at our church. We're trying to bring together young adults around
00:42:35 --> 00:42:40 kind of their professional growth because for many of them, family isn't quite,
00:42:40 --> 00:42:42 you know, that they're not quite at that stage of life yet.
00:42:43 --> 00:42:47 And I'm trying to figure out how to have the boomers as part of the conversation
00:42:47 --> 00:42:53 because I know if I said I need boomers who want to mentor 20-somethings,
00:42:53 --> 00:42:55 I'd have a ratio of five boomers for every 120-something.
00:42:55 --> 00:42:59 So I've got to figure out how to kind of like do this.
00:42:59 --> 00:43:02 Mentor you have to do mentorship without calling
00:43:02 --> 00:43:05 it mentorship i'm gonna have to have them actually i'm gonna have to have boomers fill
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08 out an application on google and if they can cross that hurdle but
00:43:08 --> 00:43:11 you know like you know like you have to apply to
00:43:11 --> 00:43:15 become a mentor in this faith and lead collective um of why you would be a good
00:43:15 --> 00:43:21 listener to uh to people but yeah no we're really excited to see um this conversation
00:43:21 --> 00:43:23 kind of bringing these two strands together at the end is kind of giving me
00:43:23 --> 00:43:29 life to think about how can we help the people who are joyfully kind of,
00:43:29 --> 00:43:34 or struggling, but ultimately joyfully then gonna let go of leadership to equip
00:43:34 --> 00:43:35 the next generation that,
00:43:36 --> 00:43:39 frankly, is gonna have to inherit a fairly complex world.
00:43:40 --> 00:43:44 A very complex world, you know. Yeah. So, well, I just wanted to come back,
00:43:44 --> 00:43:47 Dennis, and finish up our conversation and kind of probe your thoughts a little
00:43:47 --> 00:43:50 bit more because I felt there was some more connective tissue.
00:43:50 --> 00:43:52 So thanks for indulging a second round here.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:57 No problem. And I'm glad we did it because I think that that also made me think
00:43:57 --> 00:44:01 a lot more about this and what does that mean or what does it look like?
00:44:02 --> 00:44:07 And I think for me, it's okay if it's not, quote unquote, a revival.
00:44:07 --> 00:44:15 I think what matters is to be open to the people that God puts in our lives,
00:44:15 --> 00:44:18 because I think that is happening.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:21 And part of that, I think, is generational.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:26 But it may not be a tidal wave. It may, as I said, come in as,
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28 you know, drops of water.
00:44:28 --> 00:44:31 But that's kind of how we got the Grand Canyon.
00:44:32 --> 00:44:35 So, you know. Oh, awesome.
00:44:36 --> 00:44:37 Awesome.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:45 Well thank you this was good i'm glad we were able to kind of kind of have finished this off,
00:44:46 --> 00:44:51 yeah okay well blessings and and we'll have to check in from time to time and
00:44:51 --> 00:44:55 see if uh the drips are adding up to something um or if they've unfortunately
00:44:55 --> 00:44:59 evaporate but i don't think so so we'll see kind of what canyons they're what
00:44:59 --> 00:45:03 canyons they're forging so have a wonderful blessed rest of your day all right take care.
00:45:35 --> 00:45:41 As usual, I will put a few things in the show notes regarding this interview.
00:45:42 --> 00:45:45 For one, I will put Rob's article in the show notes.
00:45:47 --> 00:45:51 Also, if you haven't, a link to the last episode.
00:45:53 --> 00:45:57 Good way of comparing and contrasting these two stages in life.
00:45:59 --> 00:46:04 If you have any questions or comments, always send me an email.
00:46:04 --> 00:46:08 Email, you can do that by sending it to churchinmain.substack.com.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:13 If you want to learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes,
00:46:13 --> 00:46:16 donate, check me out at churchinmain.org.
00:46:17 --> 00:46:21 You can also visit churchinmain.substack.com to read related articles.
00:46:23 --> 00:46:27 Please consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite podcast app and leave a review.
00:46:30 --> 00:46:33 And or reading that helps others find the podcast.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:41 A few quick notes. The first is, as I said last week, I am in the process of
00:46:41 --> 00:46:42 changing podcast hosts.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:47 Don't know where that will be yet, but it is coming in a few weeks.
00:46:47 --> 00:46:52 So if you are someone that subscribes via the Podbean app,
00:46:52 --> 00:47:00 you may want to consider either finding something like Apple Podcasts or other places,
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00:47:10 --> 00:47:12 and then you can also subscribe there.
00:47:13 --> 00:47:16 But I want you to know that ahead of time.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:23 Also, want to let you know that there will be no podcasts on Friday, April 3rd.
00:47:24 --> 00:47:31 As many of you know, that is Good Friday. So, and that'll be in the midst of Holy Week.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:35 As a pastor, I'm pretty busy during that week.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:40 So decided that we won't have a podcast on Good Friday.
00:47:41 --> 00:47:46 But we will have a new episode coming up on Friday, April 10th.
00:47:46 --> 00:47:48 So just to let you know that ahead of time.
00:47:50 --> 00:47:55 Also, want to make a donation? There are links in the show notes.
00:47:55 --> 00:47:59 And there's also a link if you'd like to get the email delivered to your inbox.
00:48:01 --> 00:48:04 That is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders,
00:48:04 --> 00:48:08 your host. Thank you again so much for listening. It does really mean a lot.
00:48:09 --> 00:48:13 Take care, everyone. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.